Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers!
Actually maybe you should stop and think about the reasons why MJ and Mr. Caspien get radically different responses.
One guy has actually delivered a product that people loved. He also is generally a really likable guy.
The other guy has not delivered anything, and IMHO every deadline he sets (store, website, game) he misses my a mile. Then on top of that he attacks and belittles anyone who questions his unrealistic timeline.
So the lesson isn't "Don't communicate shit to your community" it's "Don't come off as an arrogant prick"
PS: One other big difference is that MJ has an open refund policy. Go ask Mr Caspien for your money back now that he has missed his release date by multiple years. Let me know how that goes.
"A" product that people loved, plus about a dozen that people thought was horse shit. Just saying, at least in that horse race I know that MJ has only won one in 20. Maybe I take a shot on the young horse that's acting like an asshole.
Yeah, it definitely doesn't help your communication to be a raging asshole, these forums prove that on the daily. However, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite for being a developer either. In fact, the gaming industry was born from a bunch of raging, ego-maniacal assholes.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers!
Actually maybe you should stop and think about the reasons why MJ and Mr. Caspien get radically different responses.
One guy has actually delivered a product that people loved. He also is generally a really likable guy.
The other guy has not delivered anything, and IMHO every deadline he sets (store, website, game) he misses my a mile. Then on top of that he attacks and belittles anyone who questions his unrealistic timeline.
So the lesson isn't "Don't communicate shit to your community" it's "Don't come off as an arrogant prick"
PS: One other big difference is that MJ has an open refund policy. Go ask Mr Caspien for your money back now that he has missed his release date by multiple years. Let me know how that goes.
"A" product that people loved, plus about a dozen that people thought was horse shit. Just saying, at least in that horse race I know that MJ has only won one in 20. Maybe I take a shot on the young horse that's acting like an asshole.
Yeah, it definitely doesn't help your communication to be a raging asshole, these forums prove that on the daily. However, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite for being a developer either. In fact, the gaming industry was born from a bunch of raging, ego-maniacal assholes.
Oh the irony.
I know!!!! I would say "Oh the irony" but I'm afraid I'd send the forum into an infinite loop! Let's be honest, if you're on here regularly and you think you're NOT an asshole then you're either delusional or, NOPE! Just delusional!
Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers!
Actually maybe you should stop and think about the reasons why MJ and Mr. Caspien get radically different responses.
One guy has actually delivered a product that people loved. He also is generally a really likable guy.
The other guy has not delivered anything, and IMHO every deadline he sets (store, website, game) he misses my a mile. Then on top of that he attacks and belittles anyone who questions his unrealistic timeline.
So the lesson isn't "Don't communicate shit to your community" it's "Don't come off as an arrogant prick"
PS: One other big difference is that MJ has an open refund policy. Go ask Mr Caspien for your money back now that he has missed his release date by multiple years. Let me know how that goes.
"A" product that people loved, plus about a dozen that people thought was horse shit. Just saying, at least in that horse race I know that MJ has only won one in 20. Maybe I take a shot on the young horse that's acting like an asshole.
Yeah, it definitely doesn't help your communication to be a raging asshole, these forums prove that on the daily. However, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite for being a developer either. In fact, the gaming industry was born from a bunch of raging, ego-maniacal assholes.
Oh the irony.
I know!!!! I would say "Oh the irony" but I'm afraid I'd send the forum into an infinite loop! Let's be honest, if you're on here regularly and you think you're NOT an asshole then you're either delusional or, NOPE! Just delusional!
Well, I have my days and I'm sure some feel that I am one, but generally I try to keep my more caustic impulses in check.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers!
Actually maybe you should stop and think about the reasons why MJ and Mr. Caspien get radically different responses.
One guy has actually delivered a product that people loved. He also is generally a really likable guy.
The other guy has not delivered anything, and IMHO every deadline he sets (store, website, game) he misses my a mile. Then on top of that he attacks and belittles anyone who questions his unrealistic timeline.
So the lesson isn't "Don't communicate shit to your community" it's "Don't come off as an arrogant prick"
PS: One other big difference is that MJ has an open refund policy. Go ask Mr Caspien for your money back now that he has missed his release date by multiple years. Let me know how that goes.
"A" product that people loved, plus about a dozen that people thought was horse shit. Just saying, at least in that horse race I know that MJ has only won one in 20. Maybe I take a shot on the young horse that's acting like an asshole.
Yeah, it definitely doesn't help your communication to be a raging asshole, these forums prove that on the daily. However, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite for being a developer either. In fact, the gaming industry was born from a bunch of raging, ego-maniacal assholes.
Oh the irony.
I know!!!! I would say "Oh the irony" but I'm afraid I'd send the forum into an infinite loop! Let's be honest, if you're on here regularly and you think you're NOT an asshole then you're either delusional or, NOPE! Just delusional!
Defending Elyria by calling all of us assholes... Good defence. Very well backed up.
I think this speaks more for the nature of the CoE than the mmorpg.com community.
Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers!
Actually maybe you should stop and think about the reasons why MJ and Mr. Caspien get radically different responses.
One guy has actually delivered a product that people loved. He also is generally a really likable guy.
The other guy has not delivered anything, and IMHO every deadline he sets (store, website, game) he misses my a mile. Then on top of that he attacks and belittles anyone who questions his unrealistic timeline.
So the lesson isn't "Don't communicate shit to your community" it's "Don't come off as an arrogant prick"
PS: One other big difference is that MJ has an open refund policy. Go ask Mr Caspien for your money back now that he has missed his release date by multiple years. Let me know how that goes.
"A" product that people loved, plus about a dozen that people thought was horse shit. Just saying, at least in that horse race I know that MJ has only won one in 20. Maybe I take a shot on the young horse that's acting like an asshole.
Yeah, it definitely doesn't help your communication to be a raging asshole, these forums prove that on the daily. However, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite for being a developer either. In fact, the gaming industry was born from a bunch of raging, ego-maniacal assholes.
Oh the irony.
I know!!!! I would say "Oh the irony" but I'm afraid I'd send the forum into an infinite loop! Let's be honest, if you're on here regularly and you think you're NOT an asshole then you're either delusional or, NOPE! Just delusional!
Defending Elyria by calling all of us assholes... Good defence. Very well backed up.
I think this speaks more for the nature of the CoE than the mmorpg.com community.
I said anyone who posts here frequently.....do you believe you're excluded? I've looked through your post history. Just look through the first page.... I'm probably completely wrong.... Never mind, just go back to your posting....
Also, I'm not defending COE in the least, I'm defending the idea of transparency in the game development process. Personally, I love to see it and I appreciate when a developer actually attempts to offer more detail about their development process. So I will definitely poke my head in when I feel like people are mixing fact with fiction and then using that information to form delusional rantings under the guise of "skepticism". Nope, just people being assholes. Just like I'm being an asshole the other way. You aren't though, you're totally right. I took a look through your history and you're right, you're like June fucking Cleaver.
Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers!
Actually maybe you should stop and think about the reasons why MJ and Mr. Caspien get radically different responses.
One guy has actually delivered a product that people loved. He also is generally a really likable guy.
The other guy has not delivered anything, and IMHO every deadline he sets (store, website, game) he misses my a mile. Then on top of that he attacks and belittles anyone who questions his unrealistic timeline.
So the lesson isn't "Don't communicate shit to your community" it's "Don't come off as an arrogant prick"
PS: One other big difference is that MJ has an open refund policy. Go ask Mr Caspien for your money back now that he has missed his release date by multiple years. Let me know how that goes.
"A" product that people loved, plus about a dozen that people thought was horse shit. Just saying, at least in that horse race I know that MJ has only won one in 20. Maybe I take a shot on the young horse that's acting like an asshole.
Yeah, it definitely doesn't help your communication to be a raging asshole, these forums prove that on the daily. However, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite for being a developer either. In fact, the gaming industry was born from a bunch of raging, ego-maniacal assholes.
Oh the irony.
I know!!!! I would say "Oh the irony" but I'm afraid I'd send the forum into an infinite loop! Let's be honest, if you're on here regularly and you think you're NOT an asshole then you're either delusional or, NOPE! Just delusional!
Defending Elyria by calling all of us assholes... Good defence. Very well backed up.
I think this speaks more for the nature of the CoE than the mmorpg.com community.
I said anyone who posts here frequently.....do you believe you're excluded? I've looked through your post history. Just look through the first page.... I'm probably completely wrong.... Never mind, just go back to your posting....
Also, I'm not defending COE in the least, I'm defending the idea of transparency in the game development process. Personally, I love to see it and I appreciate when a developer actually attempts to offer more detail about their development process. So I will definitely poke my head in when I feel like people are mixing fact with fiction and then using that information to form delusional rantings under the guise of "skepticism". Nope, just people being assholes. Just like I'm being an asshole the other way. You aren't though, you're totally right. I took a look through your history and you're right, you're like June fucking Cleaver.
Again... the issue isn't transparency. You yourself have admitted that others like MJ get treated differently than Mr Caspian. I explained why. MrCaspian came off as a jerk by mocking his customers that dared question his ridiculous timeline. That's why he gets treated that way. He also doubled his release horizon but doesn't offer refunds. MJ does. Right now I can go and get my Kickstarter pledge back for CU... can I do that with COE?
Those are pretty significant differences and IMHO explain why their delays are received differently. So maybe stop criticizing the posters here and acknowledge the legitimate reasons why one company is treated differently than the other.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
So things didn't go as projected meaning it will take a lot longer to get things done meaning they need a lot of additional money for salaries and such until the game can make money and support itself. Upper level management stuff he's learning about as he goes. This will be interesting.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers!
Actually maybe you should stop and think about the reasons why MJ and Mr. Caspien get radically different responses.
One guy has actually delivered a product that people loved. He also is generally a really likable guy.
The other guy has not delivered anything, and IMHO every deadline he sets (store, website, game) he misses my a mile. Then on top of that he attacks and belittles anyone who questions his unrealistic timeline.
So the lesson isn't "Don't communicate shit to your community" it's "Don't come off as an arrogant prick"
PS: One other big difference is that MJ has an open refund policy. Go ask Mr Caspien for your money back now that he has missed his release date by multiple years. Let me know how that goes.
"A" product that people loved, plus about a dozen that people thought was horse shit. Just saying, at least in that horse race I know that MJ has only won one in 20. Maybe I take a shot on the young horse that's acting like an asshole.
Yeah, it definitely doesn't help your communication to be a raging asshole, these forums prove that on the daily. However, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite for being a developer either. In fact, the gaming industry was born from a bunch of raging, ego-maniacal assholes.
Oh the irony.
I know!!!! I would say "Oh the irony" but I'm afraid I'd send the forum into an infinite loop! Let's be honest, if you're on here regularly and you think you're NOT an asshole then you're either delusional or, NOPE! Just delusional!
Defending Elyria by calling all of us assholes... Good defence. Very well backed up.
I think this speaks more for the nature of the CoE than the mmorpg.com community.
I said anyone who posts here frequently.....do you believe you're excluded? I've looked through your post history. Just look through the first page.... I'm probably completely wrong.... Never mind, just go back to your posting....
Also, I'm not defending COE in the least, I'm defending the idea of transparency in the game development process. Personally, I love to see it and I appreciate when a developer actually attempts to offer more detail about their development process. So I will definitely poke my head in when I feel like people are mixing fact with fiction and then using that information to form delusional rantings under the guise of "skepticism". Nope, just people being assholes. Just like I'm being an asshole the other way. You aren't though, you're totally right. I took a look through your history and you're right, you're like June fucking Cleaver.
Again... the issue isn't transparency. You yourself have admitted that others like MJ get treated differently than Mr Caspian. I explained why. MrCaspian came off as a jerk by mocking his customers that dared question his ridiculous timeline. That's why he gets treated that way. He also doubled his release horizon but doesn't offer refunds. MJ does. Right now I can go and get my Kickstarter pledge back for CU... can I do that with COE?
Those are pretty significant differences and IMHO explain why their delays are received differently. So maybe stop criticizing the posters here and acknowledge the legitimate reasons why one company is treated differently than the other.
Well theoretically speaking, anyone can get a refund from a crowdfunded initiative at any point if they feel inclined to do so. Also, I think that companies would be best served to not be resistant to providing refunds for this exact reason, because if people start a conga-line of chargebacks, then the developer could find themselves in a situation where they are unable to process credit cards at all.
No, I don't think that an open refund policy and the fact that you shipped a cult classic absolves you from remaining accountable to your dates. Fuck, if anything I think that someone who is a veteran developer should be more accountable to their dates than someone who apparently has no clue what they're doing. Their experience is the basis for their trust, so when they've been delayed in excess of a year now, no, the reason you give aren't reason enough for them to get a "pass" on accountability.
Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers!
Actually maybe you should stop and think about the reasons why MJ and Mr. Caspien get radically different responses.
One guy has actually delivered a product that people loved. He also is generally a really likable guy.
The other guy has not delivered anything, and IMHO every deadline he sets (store, website, game) he misses my a mile. Then on top of that he attacks and belittles anyone who questions his unrealistic timeline.
So the lesson isn't "Don't communicate shit to your community" it's "Don't come off as an arrogant prick"
PS: One other big difference is that MJ has an open refund policy. Go ask Mr Caspien for your money back now that he has missed his release date by multiple years. Let me know how that goes.
"A" product that people loved, plus about a dozen that people thought was horse shit. Just saying, at least in that horse race I know that MJ has only won one in 20. Maybe I take a shot on the young horse that's acting like an asshole.
Yeah, it definitely doesn't help your communication to be a raging asshole, these forums prove that on the daily. However, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite for being a developer either. In fact, the gaming industry was born from a bunch of raging, ego-maniacal assholes.
Oh the irony.
I know!!!! I would say "Oh the irony" but I'm afraid I'd send the forum into an infinite loop! Let's be honest, if you're on here regularly and you think you're NOT an asshole then you're either delusional or, NOPE! Just delusional!
Defending Elyria by calling all of us assholes... Good defence. Very well backed up.
I think this speaks more for the nature of the CoE than the mmorpg.com community.
I said anyone who posts here frequently.....do you believe you're excluded? I've looked through your post history. Just look through the first page.... I'm probably completely wrong.... Never mind, just go back to your posting....
Also, I'm not defending COE in the least, I'm defending the idea of transparency in the game development process. Personally, I love to see it and I appreciate when a developer actually attempts to offer more detail about their development process. So I will definitely poke my head in when I feel like people are mixing fact with fiction and then using that information to form delusional rantings under the guise of "skepticism". Nope, just people being assholes. Just like I'm being an asshole the other way. You aren't though, you're totally right. I took a look through your history and you're right, you're like June fucking Cleaver.
Again... the issue isn't transparency. You yourself have admitted that others like MJ get treated differently than Mr Caspian. I explained why. MrCaspian came off as a jerk by mocking his customers that dared question his ridiculous timeline. That's why he gets treated that way. He also doubled his release horizon but doesn't offer refunds. MJ does. Right now I can go and get my Kickstarter pledge back for CU... can I do that with COE?
Those are pretty significant differences and IMHO explain why their delays are received differently. So maybe stop criticizing the posters here and acknowledge the legitimate reasons why one company is treated differently than the other.
Well theoretically speaking, anyone can get a refund from a crowdfunded initiative at any point if they feel inclined to do so. Also, I think that companies would be best served to not be resistant to providing refunds for this exact reason, because if people start a conga-line of chargebacks, then the developer could find themselves in a situation where they are unable to process credit cards at all.
No, I don't think that an open refund policy and the fact that you shipped a cult classic absolves you from remaining accountable to your dates. Fuck, if anything I think that someone who is a veteran developer should be more accountable to their dates than someone who apparently has no clue what they're doing. Their experience is the basis for their trust, so when they've been delayed in excess of a year now, no, the reason you give aren't reason enough for them to get a "pass" on accountability.
The only reason why you should get repairs beyond money back for a faulty product is if the product ends up causing you additional monetary losses or ends up harming someone because the product was broken. While some people might end up spending more than they should on kickstarters and the emotional stress caused by a delayed product can be heavy on gamers its not a valid claim why you should get back more than what you spent on the product.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers!
Actually maybe you should stop and think about the reasons why MJ and Mr. Caspien get radically different responses.
One guy has actually delivered a product that people loved. He also is generally a really likable guy.
The other guy has not delivered anything, and IMHO every deadline he sets (store, website, game) he misses my a mile. Then on top of that he attacks and belittles anyone who questions his unrealistic timeline.
So the lesson isn't "Don't communicate shit to your community" it's "Don't come off as an arrogant prick"
PS: One other big difference is that MJ has an open refund policy. Go ask Mr Caspien for your money back now that he has missed his release date by multiple years. Let me know how that goes.
"A" product that people loved, plus about a dozen that people thought was horse shit. Just saying, at least in that horse race I know that MJ has only won one in 20. Maybe I take a shot on the young horse that's acting like an asshole.
Yeah, it definitely doesn't help your communication to be a raging asshole, these forums prove that on the daily. However, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite for being a developer either. In fact, the gaming industry was born from a bunch of raging, ego-maniacal assholes.
Oh the irony.
I know!!!! I would say "Oh the irony" but I'm afraid I'd send the forum into an infinite loop! Let's be honest, if you're on here regularly and you think you're NOT an asshole then you're either delusional or, NOPE! Just delusional!
Defending Elyria by calling all of us assholes... Good defence. Very well backed up.
I think this speaks more for the nature of the CoE than the mmorpg.com community.
I said anyone who posts here frequently.....do you believe you're excluded? I've looked through your post history. Just look through the first page.... I'm probably completely wrong.... Never mind, just go back to your posting....
Also, I'm not defending COE in the least, I'm defending the idea of transparency in the game development process. Personally, I love to see it and I appreciate when a developer actually attempts to offer more detail about their development process. So I will definitely poke my head in when I feel like people are mixing fact with fiction and then using that information to form delusional rantings under the guise of "skepticism". Nope, just people being assholes. Just like I'm being an asshole the other way. You aren't though, you're totally right. I took a look through your history and you're right, you're like June fucking Cleaver.
Again... the issue isn't transparency. You yourself have admitted that others like MJ get treated differently than Mr Caspian. I explained why. MrCaspian came off as a jerk by mocking his customers that dared question his ridiculous timeline. That's why he gets treated that way. He also doubled his release horizon but doesn't offer refunds. MJ does. Right now I can go and get my Kickstarter pledge back for CU... can I do that with COE?
Those are pretty significant differences and IMHO explain why their delays are received differently. So maybe stop criticizing the posters here and acknowledge the legitimate reasons why one company is treated differently than the other.
Well theoretically speaking, anyone can get a refund from a crowdfunded initiative at any point if they feel inclined to do so. Also, I think that companies would be best served to not be resistant to providing refunds for this exact reason, because if people start a conga-line of chargebacks, then the developer could find themselves in a situation where they are unable to process credit cards at all.
No, I don't think that an open refund policy and the fact that you shipped a cult classic absolves you from remaining accountable to your dates. Fuck, if anything I think that someone who is a veteran developer should be more accountable to their dates than someone who apparently has no clue what they're doing. Their experience is the basis for their trust, so when they've been delayed in excess of a year now, no, the reason you give aren't reason enough for them to get a "pass" on accountability.
The only reason why you should get repairs beyond money back for a faulty product is if the product ends up causing you additional monetary losses or ends up harming someone because the product was broken. While some people might end up spending more than they should on kickstarters and the emotional stress caused by a delayed product can be heavy on gamers its not a valid claim why you should get back more than what you spent on the product.
I think you missed the point on this. I was simply eluding to the point that someone can chargeback whatever the amount of their pledge at any time if any point isn't met. So having an open and voluntary refund policy is simply smart business because if someone really wants their money back, they'll get it. At no point was I ever trying to suggest that people should be able to get back more than their pledge amount.
I think you missed the point on this. I was simply eluding to the point that someone can chargeback whatever the amount of their pledge at any time if any point isn't met. So having an open and voluntary refund policy is simply smart business because if someone really wants their money back, they'll get it. At no point was I ever trying to suggest that people should be able to get back more than their pledge amount.
Well, you pointed out that they should be held more accountable. However we are talking about pre-purchases of consumer products in development and not a contract job. There is a limitation on how much accountability you can hold them to and generally speaking getting your money back is all consumers should expect when it comes to failure of delivering a product in time.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
I think you missed the point on this. I was simply eluding to the point that someone can chargeback whatever the amount of their pledge at any time if any point isn't met. So having an open and voluntary refund policy is simply smart business because if someone really wants their money back, they'll get it. At no point was I ever trying to suggest that people should be able to get back more than their pledge amount.
Well, you pointed out that they should be held more accountable. However we are talking about pre-purchases of consumer products in development and not a contract job. There is a limitation on how much accountability you can hold them to and generally speaking getting your money back is all consumers should expect when it comes to failure of delivering a product in time.
Totally agree! Actually, that's very much the same sentiment that I have with regards to crowdfunding, in general. The matter of accountability was the fact that COE is being held to a different standard of accountability than something like CU. The point was made that CU gets less flak for being horribly behind schedule because MJ is a veteran, and seemingly a kind a generous human being. So I had pointed out that if someone were a veteran than you might expect that they'd be better at estimating than some arrogant newbie. However, both projects are effectively on the same trajectory at this point.
Again, unfortunately the community shows again that they aren't capable of handling transparent communication. Unless of course you're MJ because then you get blow jobs and praise anytime you announce a delay for your game that is already a year and a half behind schedule. Fucking cheers!
Actually maybe you should stop and think about the reasons why MJ and Mr. Caspien get radically different responses.
One guy has actually delivered a product that people loved. He also is generally a really likable guy.
The other guy has not delivered anything, and IMHO every deadline he sets (store, website, game) he misses my a mile. Then on top of that he attacks and belittles anyone who questions his unrealistic timeline.
So the lesson isn't "Don't communicate shit to your community" it's "Don't come off as an arrogant prick"
PS: One other big difference is that MJ has an open refund policy. Go ask Mr Caspien for your money back now that he has missed his release date by multiple years. Let me know how that goes.
"A" product that people loved, plus about a dozen that people thought was horse shit. Just saying, at least in that horse race I know that MJ has only won one in 20. Maybe I take a shot on the young horse that's acting like an asshole.
Yeah, it definitely doesn't help your communication to be a raging asshole, these forums prove that on the daily. However, being a nice guy isn't a prerequisite for being a developer either. In fact, the gaming industry was born from a bunch of raging, ego-maniacal assholes.
Oh the irony.
I know!!!! I would say "Oh the irony" but I'm afraid I'd send the forum into an infinite loop! Let's be honest, if you're on here regularly and you think you're NOT an asshole then you're either delusional or, NOPE! Just delusional!
Defending Elyria by calling all of us assholes... Good defence. Very well backed up.
I think this speaks more for the nature of the CoE than the mmorpg.com community.
I said anyone who posts here frequently.....do you believe you're excluded? I've looked through your post history. Just look through the first page.... I'm probably completely wrong.... Never mind, just go back to your posting....
Also, I'm not defending COE in the least, I'm defending the idea of transparency in the game development process. Personally, I love to see it and I appreciate when a developer actually attempts to offer more detail about their development process. So I will definitely poke my head in when I feel like people are mixing fact with fiction and then using that information to form delusional rantings under the guise of "skepticism". Nope, just people being assholes. Just like I'm being an asshole the other way. You aren't though, you're totally right. I took a look through your history and you're right, you're like June fucking Cleaver.
Again... the issue isn't transparency. You yourself have admitted that others like MJ get treated differently than Mr Caspian. I explained why. MrCaspian came off as a jerk by mocking his customers that dared question his ridiculous timeline. That's why he gets treated that way. He also doubled his release horizon but doesn't offer refunds. MJ does. Right now I can go and get my Kickstarter pledge back for CU... can I do that with COE?
Those are pretty significant differences and IMHO explain why their delays are received differently. So maybe stop criticizing the posters here and acknowledge the legitimate reasons why one company is treated differently than the other.
Well theoretically speaking, anyone can get a refund from a crowdfunded initiative at any point if they feel inclined to do so. Also, I think that companies would be best served to not be resistant to providing refunds for this exact reason, because if people start a conga-line of chargebacks, then the developer could find themselves in a situation where they are unable to process credit cards at all.
No, I don't think that an open refund policy and the fact that you shipped a cult classic absolves you from remaining accountable to your dates. Fuck, if anything I think that someone who is a veteran developer should be more accountable to their dates than someone who apparently has no clue what they're doing. Their experience is the basis for their trust, so when they've been delayed in excess of a year now, no, the reason you give aren't reason enough for them to get a "pass" on accountability.
The only reason why you should get repairs beyond money back for a faulty product is if the product ends up causing you additional monetary losses or ends up harming someone because the product was broken. While some people might end up spending more than they should on kickstarters and the emotional stress caused by a delayed product can be heavy on gamers its not a valid claim why you should get back more than what you spent on the product.
I think you missed the point on this. I was simply eluding to the point that someone can chargeback whatever the amount of their pledge at any time if any point isn't met. So having an open and voluntary refund policy is simply smart business because if someone really wants their money back, they'll get it. At no point was I ever trying to suggest that people should be able to get back more than their pledge amount.
There are time limits on when a cardholder can file for a chargeback depending on the card used and the applied code.
Generally ranging from 30 to 120 days with one specific code going out to 540 days.
So if planning on a chargeback sooner is probably better, especially if a Dev pushes out a previously promised delivery date.
In the case of COE the card vendor may consider this announcement as the start date, or may start at years end with proper evidence.
My advice, if considering it after this recent announcement start now by asking COE for a refund based on not meeting the promise date.
If they deny the request you will have the necessary paperwork in hand when and if you decide to file.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think you missed the point on this. I was simply eluding to the point that someone can chargeback whatever the amount of their pledge at any time if any point isn't met. So having an open and voluntary refund policy is simply smart business because if someone really wants their money back, they'll get it. At no point was I ever trying to suggest that people should be able to get back more than their pledge amount.
Well, you pointed out that they should be held more accountable. However we are talking about pre-purchases of consumer products in development and not a contract job. There is a limitation on how much accountability you can hold them to and generally speaking getting your money back is all consumers should expect when it comes to failure of delivering a product in time.
Totally agree! Actually, that's very much the same sentiment that I have with regards to crowdfunding, in general. The matter of accountability was the fact that COE is being held to a different standard of accountability than something like CU. The point was made that CU gets less flak for being horribly behind schedule because MJ is a veteran, and seemingly a kind a generous human being. So I had pointed out that if someone were a veteran than you might expect that they'd be better at estimating than some arrogant newbie. However, both projects are effectively on the same trajectory at this point.
Again.. with CU anyone can simply say "This has taken too long please send me my money back" and MJ will do it. So yeah folks are disappointed... I'm disappointed but the guy apologized and offers to give me my money back. The other guy mocked his customers who said his timeline was unrealistic and categorically denies any refunds. Yes.. you can TRY to fight it with your card company, but that's not the same and even more reason to pile on.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
Call me old fashioned, but I chose to take them at their word. Especially after seeing Caspians confidence level... when he announced using SpatialOS, missing the release date was the least of his concerns -- like totatally implausible.
Did I think that the timeline was realistic? Sure, I was skeptical. But I wasn't the person setting the timeline, nor did I know the inner workings of the company. So, if that's the date they were shouting from the rooftops, then who are we to argue.
This all leads to conclude either:
a) Caspian intentionally lied about the date, knowing it wasn't realistic, in order to inspire confidence to fund the project. Then, now after a safe time has passed, he released the real timeline, masked by this story of hiring woes.
b) Caspian really believed the project would be done in Dec 2017, and based the project on that timeframe. Then, 6 months before release has come to the sudden realization, it's going to take years longer.
Frankly, I'm not sure which is better?
In fact, this delay was announced 3 months before the supposed launch !
The backer-only Exposition was due to start 3 months before the game opened to the public in December, so the effective original launch date for CoE was around September.
So, 3 months before launch, he suddenly announces a 1.5 year delay ?
Call me old fashioned, but I chose to take them at their word. Especially after seeing Caspians confidence level... when he announced using SpatialOS, missing the release date was the least of his concerns -- like totatally implausible.
Did I think that the timeline was realistic? Sure, I was skeptical. But I wasn't the person setting the timeline, nor did I know the inner workings of the company. So, if that's the date they were shouting from the rooftops, then who are we to argue.
This all leads to conclude either:
a) Caspian intentionally lied about the date, knowing it wasn't realistic, in order to inspire confidence to fund the project. Then, now after a safe time has passed, he released the real timeline, masked by this story of hiring woes.
b) Caspian really believed the project would be done in Dec 2017, and based the project on that timeframe. Then, 6 months before release has come to the sudden realization, it's going to take years longer.
Frankly, I'm not sure which is better?
In fact, this delay was announced 3 months before the supposed launch !
The backer-only Exposition was due to start 3 months before the game opened to the public in December, so the effective original launch date for CoE was around September.
So, 3 months before launch, he suddenly announces a 1.5 year delay ?
LOL, like anyone who backed it didn't KNOW it was being delayed ages ago.... I can say it was nice to get an updated timeline, so now we wait one month and see how it goes.... Seriously, I agree with CrazKanuk about regular posters on this site... It's 90% of what I see every time I come here, every few years...
Grim is totally correct. I haven't been o these forums long but on the official forums, the Q&A's, and Dev Journals it was clear that the exposition was not going to be starting any day now.
Comments
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I know!!!! I would say "Oh the irony" but I'm afraid I'd send the forum into an infinite loop! Let's be honest, if you're on here regularly and you think you're NOT an asshole then you're either delusional or, NOPE! Just delusional!
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Good defence. Very well backed up.
I think this speaks more for the nature of the CoE than the mmorpg.com community.
I said anyone who posts here frequently.....do you believe you're excluded? I've looked through your post history. Just look through the first page.... I'm probably completely wrong.... Never mind, just go back to your posting....
Also, I'm not defending COE in the least, I'm defending the idea of transparency in the game development process. Personally, I love to see it and I appreciate when a developer actually attempts to offer more detail about their development process. So I will definitely poke my head in when I feel like people are mixing fact with fiction and then using that information to form delusional rantings under the guise of "skepticism". Nope, just people being assholes. Just like I'm being an asshole the other way. You aren't though, you're totally right. I took a look through your history and you're right, you're like June fucking Cleaver.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Those are pretty significant differences and IMHO explain why their delays are received differently. So maybe stop criticizing the posters here and acknowledge the legitimate reasons why one company is treated differently than the other.
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Well theoretically speaking, anyone can get a refund from a crowdfunded initiative at any point if they feel inclined to do so. Also, I think that companies would be best served to not be resistant to providing refunds for this exact reason, because if people start a conga-line of chargebacks, then the developer could find themselves in a situation where they are unable to process credit cards at all.
No, I don't think that an open refund policy and the fact that you shipped a cult classic absolves you from remaining accountable to your dates. Fuck, if anything I think that someone who is a veteran developer should be more accountable to their dates than someone who apparently has no clue what they're doing. Their experience is the basis for their trust, so when they've been delayed in excess of a year now, no, the reason you give aren't reason enough for them to get a "pass" on accountability.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
I think you missed the point on this. I was simply eluding to the point that someone can chargeback whatever the amount of their pledge at any time if any point isn't met. So having an open and voluntary refund policy is simply smart business because if someone really wants their money back, they'll get it. At no point was I ever trying to suggest that people should be able to get back more than their pledge amount.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Totally agree! Actually, that's very much the same sentiment that I have with regards to crowdfunding, in general. The matter of accountability was the fact that COE is being held to a different standard of accountability than something like CU. The point was made that CU gets less flak for being horribly behind schedule because MJ is a veteran, and seemingly a kind a generous human being. So I had pointed out that if someone were a veteran than you might expect that they'd be better at estimating than some arrogant newbie. However, both projects are effectively on the same trajectory at this point.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
Generally ranging from 30 to 120 days with one specific code going out to 540 days.
So if planning on a chargeback sooner is probably better, especially if a Dev pushes out a previously promised delivery date.
In the case of COE the card vendor may consider this announcement as the start date, or may start at years end with proper evidence.
My advice, if considering it after this recent announcement start now by asking COE for a refund based on not meeting the promise date.
If they deny the request you will have the necessary paperwork in hand when and if you decide to file.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
All time classic MY NEW FAVORITE POST! (Keep laying those bricks)
"I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator
Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017.
Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018
"Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018
The backer-only Exposition was due to start 3 months before the game opened to the public in December, so the effective original launch date for CoE was around September.
So, 3 months before launch, he suddenly announces a 1.5 year delay ?
I can say it was nice to get an updated timeline, so now we wait one month and see how it goes....
Seriously, I agree with CrazKanuk about regular posters on this site... It's 90% of what I see every time I come here, every few years...
Sincerely,
Grimm Liberty