Ever wondered how MMORPG development companies hook you?

blorpykins · July 2017

Found this sub discussing a video where Starr Long (Portalarium) goes in depth on how to convince players to take ownership in the project.

The video is called Crowdsharing: Crowdfunding and Crowdsourcing.

Crowdfunding is often now hailed as a way to free developers from the shackles of publishers, a way to make very specific products for very specific audiences, etc. What seems to be missing is ongoing dialogue about building this into a self-sustaining ecosystem of development where the crowd is sharing, not just funding and sourcing. Crowdsharing is a combination of crowdfunding and crowdsourcing in a sustainable loop. Using his recent experience on Shroud of the Avatar, 20-year video game veteran Starr Long will talk about the various ways to make this loop work.

Here's another video where Starr Long and other panelists are talking about the Care and Feeding of Wild Fansites, he talks about how Portalarium uses and motivates their community, Steam, Reddit, and how community management does things.

Fansites are a critical part of any gaming community. During this talk, the panelists explore what best practices are to engage and encourage these passionate gamers to build sites dedicated to their titles. They'll answer questions about what a studio can do to help support these organizations from inception through the day to day upkeep. They'll also discover ways to help get buy-in from stakeholders within your organization to commit resources to these groups.

After watching the videos I felt a little strange in how I'm being regarded, categorized, communicated with, and sometimes possibly even manipulated based on my social and monetary contributions. I never really though of myself as wanting to stay and play a game because I was a stakeholder, I always thought I stayed with a game because it was fun. After watching these videos, it's possible that's not the case at all.

Tiller · July 2017

This is how all companies view and categorize consumers in all things. It's become a form of science. Ever walk into a grocery store? It's happening there too. Appeal to ones senses and you can sell anything to them. This is why people walk away from State Fairs with worthless crap they can't use, like those dumb squeegee mops. $20 for some worth $4.

SEANMCAD · July 2017

People think of marketing as just an add on TV that they know is clearly an add. They have no idea, and the worst offenders are the ones with the largest pockets. NOT the small guys, the big guys. Marketing is a multi-billion dollar business people, who pays for that?

nariusseldon · July 2017

SEANMCAD said:

People think of marketing as just an add on TV that they know is clearly an add. They have no idea, and the worst offenders are the ones with the largest pockets. NOT the small guys, the big guys. Marketing is a multi-billion dollar business people, who pays for that?

You do, of course.

I thought people already know this? Many silicon valley companies are about using big data to market .. basically meaning figuring out from data, how to get people to buy.

blorpykins · July 2017

nariusseldon said:

SEANMCAD said:

People think of marketing as just an add on TV that they know is clearly an add. They have no idea, and the worst offenders are the ones with the largest pockets. NOT the small guys, the big guys. Marketing is a multi-billion dollar business people, who pays for that?

You do, of course.

I thought people already know this? Many silicon valley companies are about using big data to market .. basically meaning figuring out from data, how to get people to buy.

Part of the shock for me is that I expect this sort of behavior from big data companies and corporate institutions. That I'm realizing I'm exposed to this sort of marketing from indie game dev companies that get their funding through Kickstarter has caught me completely off-guard.

SEANMCAD · July 2017

blorpykins said:

nariusseldon said:

SEANMCAD said:

People think of marketing as just an add on TV that they know is clearly an add. They have no idea, and the worst offenders are the ones with the largest pockets. NOT the small guys, the big guys. Marketing is a multi-billion dollar business people, who pays for that?

You do, of course.

I thought people already know this? Many silicon valley companies are about using big data to market .. basically meaning figuring out from data, how to get people to buy.

Part of the shock for me is that I expect this sort of behavior from big data companies and corporate institutions. That I'm realizing I'm exposed to this sort of marketing from indie game dev companies that get their funding through Kickstarter has caught me completely off-guard.

indies dont do it nearly even remotely close to the same level as the big companies do.
The big companies are very literally spending millions of dollars on very clever marketing.

nariusseldon · July 2017

blorpykins said:

Part of the shock for me is that I expect this sort of behavior from big data companies and corporate institutions. That I'm realizing I'm exposed to this sort of marketing from indie game dev companies that get their funding through Kickstarter has caught me completely off-guard.

Data science is the hottest business trend right now. And even indie companies get a lot of data and there is no reason they should not take advantage of it.

In fact, given the whales/f2p situation, how can indie devs survive without resorting to the same techniques that big companies are using? You don't need a dedicated expensive team of PhD to do data science anymore. There are plenty of diy tools. Heck, google even put their deep-learning tool (Tensor) on google cloud.

blorpykins · July 2017

nariusseldon said:

blorpykins said:

Part of the shock for me is that I expect this sort of behavior from big data companies and corporate institutions. That I'm realizing I'm exposed to this sort of marketing from indie game dev companies that get their funding through Kickstarter has caught me completely off-guard.

Data science is the hottest business trend right now. And even indie companies get a lot of data and there is no reason they should not take advantage of it.

In fact, given the whales/f2p situation, how can indie devs survive without resorting to the same techniques that big companies are using? You don't need a dedicated expensive team of PhD to do data science anymore. There are plenty of diy tools. Heck, google even put their deep-learning tool (Tensor) on google cloud.

It's when they start manipulating the game for a desired reaction from the player community that is kinda freaking me out. When Starr Long talks about loading the game with crappy free downloaded music and then getting backers stepping up to fix it - that just doesn't seem right to me. I'm exposing myself to a role playing game that I willingly immerse myself in and now I have to worry about subliminal crowdsharing tactics that might be targeting me to do work for the company? Being the subject of marketing research is one thing, but being an unwitting participant in marketing programs that manipulate me while I think I'm playing a game (that I paid for) feels dirty. Maybe if it was a F2P game I'd feel different.

SEANMCAD · July 2017

blorpykins said:

nariusseldon said:

blorpykins said:

Part of the shock for me is that I expect this sort of behavior from big data companies and corporate institutions. That I'm realizing I'm exposed to this sort of marketing from indie game dev companies that get their funding through Kickstarter has caught me completely off-guard.

Data science is the hottest business trend right now. And even indie companies get a lot of data and there is no reason they should not take advantage of it.

In fact, given the whales/f2p situation, how can indie devs survive without resorting to the same techniques that big companies are using? You don't need a dedicated expensive team of PhD to do data science anymore. There are plenty of diy tools. Heck, google even put their deep-learning tool (Tensor) on google cloud.

It's when they start manipulating the game for a desired reaction from the player community that is kinda freaking me out. When Starr Long talks about loading the game with crappy free downloaded music and then getting backers stepping up to fix it - that just doesn't seem right to me. I'm exposing myself to a role playing game that I willingly immerse myself in and now I have to worry about subliminal crowdsharing tactics that might be targeting me to do work for the company? Being the subject of marketing research is one thing, but being an unwitting participant in marketing programs that manipulate me while I think I'm playing a game (that I paid for) feels dirty. Maybe if it was a F2P game I'd feel different.

think on this part.

All big developers do things like this but they do it better which is why you cant find an article about it.

think on that.

nariusseldon · July 2017

blorpykins said:

It's when they start manipulating the game for a desired reaction from the player community that is kinda freaking me out.

Psychological manipulating is not a sure thing. On average it works, but not necessarily on every single person.

The easiest thing is to avoid KS.

SEANMCAD · July 2017

nariusseldon said:

blorpykins said:

It's when they start manipulating the game for a desired reaction from the player community that is kinda freaking me out.

Psychological manipulating is not a sure thing. On average it works, but not necessarily on every single person.

The easiest thing is to avoid KS.

on average if you were to say 'screw it I am sticking to AAA titles, I dont want to be manipulated by KS' you are opening up yourself to about 10x times the amount of manipulation

Loke666 · July 2017

SEANMCAD said:

blorpykins said:

Part of the shock for me is that I expect this sort of behavior from big data companies and corporate institutions. That I'm realizing I'm exposed to this sort of marketing from indie game dev companies that get their funding through Kickstarter has caught me completely off-guard.

indies dont do it nearly even remotely close to the same level as the big companies do.
The big companies are very literally spending millions of dollars on very clever marketing.

If we are talking in percentage of the budget they spend on a game or other product it might not be such huge difference.

Whatever, people who have a product to sell tends to market it. And yes, they lie and cheat while doing it if they can get away with it.

You just have to use your bullshit filter filter as with any other kind of advertisement. In my case I am not worried unless they do like Wow and use Mr T, since he is so awesome he got a permanent exception... (yeah... pity the fool indeed).

SEANMCAD · July 2017

Loke666 said:

SEANMCAD said:

blorpykins said:

Part of the shock for me is that I expect this sort of behavior from big data companies and corporate institutions. That I'm realizing I'm exposed to this sort of marketing from indie game dev companies that get their funding through Kickstarter has caught me completely off-guard.

indies dont do it nearly even remotely close to the same level as the big companies do.
The big companies are very literally spending millions of dollars on very clever marketing.

If we are talking in percentage of the budget they spend on a game or other product it might not be such huge difference.

Whatever, people who have a product to sell tends to market it. And yes, they lie and cheat while doing it if they can get away with it.

You just have to use your bullshit filter filter as with any other kind of advertisement. In my case I am not worried unless they do like Wow and use Mr T, since he is so awesome he got a permanent exception... (yeah... pity the fool indeed).

no I am 99% positive that its percentage AND actual dollars is larger spent on marketing by the larger companies

small firms cant really afford to divert much percentage away from the games and also to be competley blunt, small firms actually enjoy making games, large companies are driven by people who dont give a rats ass about games.

in an world where everyone is complaining about about pay for loot crates and founder packs before a game comes out I am shocked that people dont see how unbearbly painfully obvious the difference is.

laxie · July 2017

I was working in a sushi restaurant for a year, mainly to distract myself from my studies. It was a small family business with 16 seats (2 tables and a couple of bar seats). The owner was also the chef. He used to own big chains and now decided to go back to what he loved - making fresh sushi and talking to people while doing it.

Up until then, it never occurred to me how much psychology and planning goes into even the smallest of businesses. It was an eye opener. Everything in the restaurant, and I mean everything, was the way it was for a reason. From the spacing of the tables (to make less desirable seats more comfortable), the angle you put the menus on the table (to encourage strangers talking to each other), the number of teas on offer and how you present them (to make people buy more of certain kinds of tea), the colors of the choppings boards (to highlight specific fish/vegetables being cut on them), the specific order of the menu (to make each dish most enjoyable). A lot of the decor (even the small things) was chosen to give the impression of an authentic Japanese eatery. I am kidding you not, even the screws in the doors were selected for specific reasons.

I have become good friends with the owner over the year, which is why he was comfortable telling me all of this. The part-time staffers would likely be oblivious to most of these "tricks".

You would never have guessed how thought through everything is. Partly to make the experience as enjoyable as possible for the customer, but also in part to sell specific things in specific quantities.

If this happens in a 16-seat Japanese joint, I can only imagine what happens in businesses with dedicated marketing departments. This has to be especially extreme in gaming, where the data generated by your customers is virtually endless.

SEANMCAD · July 2017

laxie said:

I was working in a sushi restaurant for a year, mainly to distract myself from my studies. It was a small family business with 16 seats (2 tables and a couple of bar seats). The owner was also the chef. He used to own big chains and now decided to go back to what he loved - making fresh sushi and talking to people while doing it.

Up until then, it never occurred to me how much psychology and planning goes into even the smallest of businesses. It was an eye opener. Everything in the restaurant, and I mean everything, was the way it was for a reason. From the spacing of the tables (to make less desirable seats more comfortable), the angle you put the menus on the table (to encourage strangers talking to each other), the number of teas on offer and how you present them (to make people buy more of certain kinds of tea), the colors of the choppings boards (to highlight specific fish/vegetables being cut on them), the specific order of the menu (to make each dish most enjoyable). A lot of the decor (even the small things) was chosen to give the impression of an authentic Japanese eatery. I am kidding you not, even the screws in the doors were selected for specific reasons.

I have become good friends with the owner over the year, which is why he was comfortable telling me all of this. The part-time staffers would likely be oblivious to most of these "tricks".

You would never have guessed how thought through everything is. Partly to make the experience as enjoyable as possible for the customer, but also in part to sell specific things in specific quantities.

If this happens in a 16-seat Japanese joint, I can only imagine what happens in businesses with dedicated marketing departments. This has to be especially extreme in gaming, where the data generated by your customers is virtually endless.

I say again.

I can assure you with a great level of extreeme confidence that the amount of money AND the amount of percentage of the project spent on marketing by large game developement companies is considerably more then it is for indies.

and the fact that so many here can not see the painfully obvious results of that like picking up a game covered in pay for loot crates and paying friggin $150 for a free to play games is evidence that the stradegies work very well

sunandshadow · July 2017

The really interesting thing to me is, where the heck are they finding funders who are competent to create content? It's really hard to find anyone competent to create any kind of game content.

nariusseldon · July 2017

SEANMCAD said:

nariusseldon said:

blorpykins said:

It's when they start manipulating the game for a desired reaction from the player community that is kinda freaking me out.

Psychological manipulating is not a sure thing. On average it works, but not necessarily on every single person.

The easiest thing is to avoid KS.

on average if you were to say 'screw it I am sticking to AAA titles, I dont want to be manipulated by KS' you are opening up yourself to about 10x times the amount of manipulation

No .. i am saying .. if i am going to be manipulated, let's go with the professonals who would do it seamlessly and make sure I am entertained.

You cannot avoid being manipulated in the modern world. The question is who you will to do the manipulation.

SEANMCAD · July 2017

nariusseldon said:

SEANMCAD said:

nariusseldon said:

blorpykins said:

It's when they start manipulating the game for a desired reaction from the player community that is kinda freaking me out.

Psychological manipulating is not a sure thing. On average it works, but not necessarily on every single person.

The easiest thing is to avoid KS.

on average if you were to say 'screw it I am sticking to AAA titles, I dont want to be manipulated by KS' you are opening up yourself to about 10x times the amount of manipulation

No .. i am saying .. if i am going to be manipulated, let's go with the professonals who would do it seamlessly and make sure I am entertained.

You cannot avoid being manipulated in the modern world. The question is who you will to do the manipulation.

the problem as I see it is that they dont do that last part.

I have played both types of games, big developers and small developers and frankly the vast majority of time the big developer game leaves you far less satisied while they walk away with more of your money.

A hint to that is how often here people complain about games they play and how often I do not..;) its not self restraint on my part, these games are friggin awesome

Quizzical · July 2017

You thought that people who crowdfund games were making a carefully informed, rational decision?

As for staying with a game, just because they have a goofy way to say "make sure that players are still having fun" doesn't mean that that's not what they mean.

Quizzical · July 2017

There are things that you can do with big data, and there are things that you really can't do. It's far easier to capture immediate effects than longer term secondary effects. For example, if you're running a web site, you can readily track how many people click on which articles. You could easily see that extreme clickbait headlines and articles get the most clicks. But if you take that to its logical conclusion, you end up with one of those pure clickbait sites that is drowning in ads and clickbait headlines to take you to slideshows that give you a whole new set of ads for every slide. And pretty much no one spends a lot of time on those sites, as getting someone to click on something stupid today might mean that they don't regularly visit your site at all in the future.

Big data can sometimes find relationships that you wouldn't have guessed. But you still need a human to look at it for a sanity check before just implementing whatever one might naively claim that the data say.

Quizzical · July 2017

Vardahoth said:

"Ever wondered how MMORPG development companies hook you?"

No, it's actually quite simple. People are stupid and will pay for anything. No wondering required.

If it's that simple, then why are there games that fail? Why do game companies ever go out of business?

Quizzical · July 2017

Vardahoth said:

Quizzical said:

Vardahoth said:

"Ever wondered how MMORPG development companies hook you?"

No, it's actually quite simple. People are stupid and will pay for anything. No wondering required.

If it's that simple, then why are there games that fail? Why do game companies ever go out of business?

They take the money and run. People realize they got scammed, but don't learn and continue to get scammed.

That completely fails as an explanation for why businesses go out of business.

postlarval · July 2017

nariusseldon said:

SEANMCAD said:

nariusseldon said:

blorpykins said:

It's when they start manipulating the game for a desired reaction from the player community that is kinda freaking me out.

Psychological manipulating is not a sure thing. On average it works, but not necessarily on every single person.

The easiest thing is to avoid KS.

on average if you were to say 'screw it I am sticking to AAA titles, I dont want to be manipulated by KS' you are opening up yourself to about 10x times the amount of manipulation

No .. i am saying .. if i am going to be manipulated, let's go with the professonals who would do it seamlessly and make sure I am entertained.

You cannot avoid being manipulated in the modern world. The question is who you will to do the manipulation.

You are about the enter the @SEANMCAD rabbit hole

He bases his opinions solely on what he observes and has no interest in facts. Continuing this conversation would be like trying to explain to an 11th century peasant that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

He clearly has no experience out in the world and no awareness of how businesses operate within the confines of our economic system. All of his information apparently comes from his daily conversations with the Mad Hatter while having tea.

Theocritus · July 2017

Its obvious that many of these people know the catch words and catch phrases that hook players... All they have to do is say terms like "sandbox," "skill based'", "PVP," etc and players are often lining up with their money......Many players often will donate without having seen the game even, just based on what these devs say, then they are disappointed when they learn the game isn't quite what they thought it would be.

flizzer · July 2017

I'm not surprised gaming companies use research to get people to buy; I am continually surprised how many posters on here feel gaming companies are somehow "noble" or beyond these practices. Gaming companies want to make money. I'm shocked.

Quizzical · July 2017

postlarval said:

Continuing this conversation would be like trying to explain to an 11th century peasant that the Earth revolves around the Sun.

I'll bet that most people alive today couldn't explain that beyond merely asserting it, even to a modern person who accepts that it is true and knows the relevant mathematics but merely wants to know why it works that way. It's a more subtle issue than most people realize, which is why people didn't nail it down until about 300 years ago.

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