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RMT relationships between devs and whales

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  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,304
    Elsabolts said:
    Simple, Don't play there Game. your welcome
    You're*

    Loke666 said:
    Kyleran said:
    This is why all these early access titles are a bad idea, confuses people over the real status of a game.

    While SotA still hasn't formally released yet, they announced there would be no more wipes last summer, so it has been launched in my book since then.
    Ah, the classic "the game is still too crappy for release but we want your money now" paradox. It seems to become more and more common today.

    Screwing the majority of the players seems unwise to me, whales tend to change game rather often so they risk losing the regular players for a short but sweet income. A good MMO earns money for a long time, but you risk screwing that up here (if the game actually is good, if it sucks it is probably the best way).
    I agree with you, I hope the whales can keep the game afloat, why would anyone play this when the playing field is so skewed towards p2w?
    Gdemami

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Kyleran said:
    Elsabolts said:
    Simple, Don't play there Game. your welcome

    Better yet, just enjoy for free (assuming the game is fun) until you hit a pay wall (and some games have none .. like Marvel Heroes), then move on.

    If devs want to give me free entertainment, i don't see why I should refuse (assuming the game is fun).
    Games are not "fun," they just "are."

    The gamer decides whether they enjoy playing them as presented based on their personal preferences.

    Which is why one man's trash is another's treasure.





    That is why plenty of gamers play games for free. For THEM, games are fun. 
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774


    Kickstarter.  The game that was pitched is not the game that was created, and it's taken years for it all to really come together and for the devs to really come out and say what things are.  

    Lol .. and you don't know this before now? They will say anything to get a buck. 

    There are so many free games .. why would anyone pay into KS is a mystery to me. There is really no point. You can always buy after a good (to you) game is produced.


  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466

    Lol .. and you don't know this before now? They will say anything to get a buck. 

    There are so many free games .. why would anyone pay into KS is a mystery to me. There is really no point. You can always buy after a good (to you) game is produced.



    I know I'll never touch anything with Richard's name on it again, ever.  I don't even care if they never ship the physical rewards, though I do feel like there would be a class action lawsuit if they didn't.  I'd prolly get in on that.

    As for other games that put RMT out in front as a premier game mechanic, what other titles do this?
    Gdemami
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003

    Lol .. and you don't know this before now? They will say anything to get a buck. 

    There are so many free games .. why would anyone pay into KS is a mystery to me. There is really no point. You can always buy after a good (to you) game is produced.



    I know I'll never touch anything with Richard's name on it again, ever.  I don't even care if they never ship the physical rewards, though I do feel like there would be a class action lawsuit if they didn't.  I'd prolly get in on that.

    As for other games that put RMT out in front as a premier game mechanic, what other titles do this?
    While I agree, we probably should have noticed the warning flare called Tabula Rasa. I want to kick myself every time I think about it.
    blorpykinsGdemami
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130

    Lol .. and you don't know this before now? They will say anything to get a buck. 

    There are so many free games .. why would anyone pay into KS is a mystery to me. There is really no point. You can always buy after a good (to you) game is produced.



    I know I'll never touch anything with Richard's name on it again, ever.  I don't even care if they never ship the physical rewards, though I do feel like there would be a class action lawsuit if they didn't.  I'd prolly get in on that.

    As for other games that put RMT out in front as a premier game mechanic, what other titles do this?

    It's huge in the mobile space, but largely transparent. You're right, whales do tend to move on....... unless you cater to them. As long as you continue to cater to them, they'll probably stick around. Of course that depends largely on the whale, but not really. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774

    Lol .. and you don't know this before now? They will say anything to get a buck. 

    There are so many free games .. why would anyone pay into KS is a mystery to me. There is really no point. You can always buy after a good (to you) game is produced.



    I know I'll never touch anything with Richard's name on it again, ever.  I don't even care if they never ship the physical rewards, though I do feel like there would be a class action lawsuit if they didn't.  I'd prolly get in on that.

    As for other games that put RMT out in front as a premier game mechanic, what other titles do this?

    RG is a one trick pony. He has no success, zero nana, after Ultima 7 (8 is a mix, 9 is a disaster). UO, strictly speaking, is not his and it is not that great anyway.


    Kyleran[Deleted User]
  • LynxJSALynxJSA Member RarePosts: 3,198
    Multibyte said:
    Elsabolts said:
    Simple, Don't play there Game. your welcome
    This.
    I have no idea why people play these games unless you are one of those whales. I'd be out of that place the moment I noticed what was going on, lots of other games are waiting to be played.

    If you are so unhappy, do not reward it by playing the game.

    .
    Agreed. I was originally a backer and followed along the forum and IRC channels. Got kicked from one of the channels because it was only for people who pledged at a certain level or higher. Pulled my pledge.  That was the last of several warning signs for me at the time. Maybe it's changed, but back then there was a lot of talk about how locations was going to be everything, and it seemed very much like there was going to be a core group making bank at everyone else's expense. Hopefully that has since changed, however I'd be surprised if it has. 
    Gdemami
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    LynxJSA said:
    Multibyte said:
    Elsabolts said:
    Simple, Don't play there Game. your welcome
    This.
    I have no idea why people play these games unless you are one of those whales. I'd be out of that place the moment I noticed what was going on, lots of other games are waiting to be played.

    If you are so unhappy, do not reward it by playing the game.

    .
    Agreed. I was originally a backer and followed along the forum and IRC channels. Got kicked from one of the channels because it was only for people who pledged at a certain level or higher. Pulled my pledge.  That was the last of several warning signs for me at the time. Maybe it's changed, but back then there was a lot of talk about how locations was going to be everything, and it seemed very much like there was going to be a core group making bank at everyone else's expense. Hopefully that has since changed, however I'd be surprised if it has. 
    Hasn't really changed. 

    SotA's target audience is social misfits with more money than sense. 
    GdemamiKyleran
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 14,399
    LynxJSA said:
    Multibyte said:
    Elsabolts said:
    Simple, Don't play there Game. your welcome
    This.
    I have no idea why people play these games unless you are one of those whales. I'd be out of that place the moment I noticed what was going on, lots of other games are waiting to be played.

    If you are so unhappy, do not reward it by playing the game.

    .
    Agreed. I was originally a backer and followed along the forum and IRC channels. Got kicked from one of the channels because it was only for people who pledged at a certain level or higher. Pulled my pledge.  That was the last of several warning signs for me at the time. Maybe it's changed, but back then there was a lot of talk about how locations was going to be everything, and it seemed very much like there was going to be a core group making bank at everyone else's expense. Hopefully that has since changed, however I'd be surprised if it has. 
    Well you're one of the sensible ones who saw the writing on the wall and pulled out. A lot of the fretting in these crowd-funded games comes from early backers who are disappointed with the direction of development but either can't or won't pull their pledge.

    Some will even argue for days on end that obvious "reward" tiered P2W games are not really that despite overwhelming evidence. They tend to be the most vocal critics once the penny drops for them.
    GdemamiMadFrenchie
    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

    "... the "influencers" which is the tech name we call sell outs now..."
    __ Wizardry, 2020
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,348

    Lol .. and you don't know this before now? They will say anything to get a buck. 

    There are so many free games .. why would anyone pay into KS is a mystery to me. There is really no point. You can always buy after a good (to you) game is produced.



    I know I'll never touch anything with Richard's name on it again, ever.  I don't even care if they never ship the physical rewards, though I do feel like there would be a class action lawsuit if they didn't.  I'd prolly get in on that.

    As for other games that put RMT out in front as a premier game mechanic, what other titles do this?

    RG is a one trick pony. He has no success, zero nana, after Ultima 7 (8 is a mix, 9 is a disaster). UO, strictly speaking, is not his and it is not that great anyway.


    Wait, you forgot to i include UO2, or Tabula Rasa.

    "This is the song that never ends, it goes on and on my friend.."

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    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    @blorpykins ;

    I think there is difference between a malicious desire to scam people and incompetence / realizing you promised more than you can deliver. Then beyond that there is a difference between incompetence and making decisions that don't please everyone.

    Everyone ascribes malicious desire to scam people to kickstarters projects that don't go the way they want. I think that is very rarely the case. I think these developers walk into the scene thinking they are God's gift to the MMO audience, bite off more than they can chew and then fall short. Sometimes miserably failing.

    Not even Pathfinder Online which failed to deliver on like every single promise is a game I would consider driven by a desire to scam people. Ryan Dancey was just that full of himself, and that incompetent. 

    Allowing RMT is an example of him making a decision that doesn't please everyone. The rest of the problems with the game is an example of a mix of incompetence and inability to deliver on promises.

    Like I said. It's a gamble. You bet on the wrong horse. I realise it's easiest to say "Garriot is a scammer" but the fact is, you made a bet that didn't pan out. Accept it and move on. Learn from it and look for warning signs next time you do a kickstarter, or don't kickstart things.
  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    Eldurian said:
    @blorpykins ;

    I think there is difference between a malicious desire to scam people and incompetence / realizing you promised more than you can deliver. Then beyond that there is a difference between incompetence and making decisions that don't please everyone.

    Everyone ascribes malicious desire to scam people to kickstarters projects that don't go the way they want. I think that is very rarely the case. I think these developers walk into the scene thinking they are God's gift to the MMO audience, bite off more than they can chew and then fall short. Sometimes miserably failing.

    Not even Pathfinder Online which failed to deliver on like every single promise is a game I would consider driven by a desire to scam people. Ryan Dancey was just that full of himself, and that incompetent. 

    Allowing RMT is an example of him making a decision that doesn't please everyone. The rest of the problems with the game is an example of a mix of incompetence and inability to deliver on promises.

    Like I said. It's a gamble. You bet on the wrong horse. I realise it's easiest to say "Garriot is a scammer" but the fact is, you made a bet that didn't pan out. Accept it and move on. Learn from it and look for warning signs next time you do a kickstarter, or don't kickstart things.
    Opportunity makes the thief is generally how things work.  People are either honest or they're not.  There were some videos floating around that weren't intended for public consumption me thinks where Chris, Starr, and Richard are hamming it up about how they used smoke and mirrors to get through the Kickstarter with nothing but a desire to make enough money to keep the lights on at Portalarium.  It was disheartening to watch, to say the least.

    What I am curious to know is how many other games and dev teams promote and sensationalize RMT the way SotA does?  These guys will even ban people and then tell them to sell their accounts in the player market if they want a refund.  It's crazy!

    I'm hearing the mobile MMO market is full of RMT, but even then, are the dev teams openly promoting it and using it as an alternative to refunds?  I'm happy to hear any examples you have.
    Gdemami
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    As I've mentioned Entropia is RMT focused and Wurm allows the open selling of silver on their forums and in-game. Star Citizen is not quite as open but they have a Grey Market they do not moderate or consider to be a TOS violation where ships are sold for hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars (I speak from experience on that one. Star Citizen remains the game where I've made the most money to date and it isn't even out yet.) And of course there was the infamous Diablo 3 shot at before they realized how damn easy to bot their game was. Chronicles of Elyria is reportedly planning to do it as well. 

    But those examples aside can you drag up the quotes where Shroud of the Avatar were like. "We aren't going to allow RMT in this game!" Without those kind of quotes I'm afraid that you don't really have much of a leg to stand on. Kickstarter MMOs are all about defying the norm. Unless they went back on a promise it doesn't sound like a scam to me. 
  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    Eldurian said:
    As I've mentioned Entropia is RMT focused and Wurm allows the open selling of silver on their forums and in-game. Star Citizen is not quite as open but they have a Grey Market they do not moderate or consider to be a TOS violation where ships are sold for hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars (I speak from experience on that one. Star Citizen remains the game where I've made the most money to date and it isn't even out yet.) And of course there was the infamous Diablo 3 shot at before they realized how damn easy to bot their game was. Chronicles of Elyria is reportedly planning to do it as well. 

    But those examples aside can you drag up the quotes where Shroud of the Avatar were like. "We aren't going to allow RMT in this game!" Without those kind of quotes I'm afraid that you don't really have much of a leg to stand on. Kickstarter MMOs are all about defying the norm. Unless they went back on a promise it doesn't sound like a scam to me. 
    Kickstarter and broken promises... Portalarium is all about boken promises and where RMT is concerned, without even having to look anything up, I can tell you there wasn't a single mention of "investing" in add-on store crap and pledges until after the Kickstarter had been funded.
    Gdemami
  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    The thing is did they actually make any promises about RMT, or did you infer promises that weren't there because they didn't say anything.
  • blorpykinsblorpykins Member RarePosts: 466
    Eldurian said:
    The thing is did they actually make any promises about RMT, or did you infer promises that weren't there because they didn't say anything.
    There are numerous unfulfilled Kickstarter promises where SotA is concerned and one of the devs is even on record saying that those stretch goals and backer rewards that haven't been met yet are because they didn't make sense so they're not doing them.  That I can find a quote for.
    Gdemami
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member RarePosts: 1,353
    Where is SotA revenue coming from. Seems weird they will purposely leak info just so more people will buy package to access the dev forum. Don't they have cashshop?
  • AriesTigerAriesTiger Member UncommonPosts: 444
    edited July 2017
    People are clueless about such affairs and it's better that it stays that way. I played a B2P game up until recently and I almost had a personal GM waiting on me lol.

    Plus the customer service reps of some games will give you juicy details about the game but should you ever speak a word about that they and the company roast you. :P lol.
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,967
    There has to be some kind of benefits for big spenders.  It shows a level of commitment to contribute to the game.  A lot of MMO's give subscribers benefits that none subs don't get.  Some games let you hang out with the devs or actually contribute ideas that may be added to the game.  
    But that's how it is everywhere.  Big spenders get to skip the lines at the clubs and get waited on hand and foot at their table.
    Gdemami

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,774
    Eldurian said:
    @blorpykins ;



    Like I said. It's a gamble. You bet on the wrong horse. I realise it's easiest to say "Garriot is a scammer" but the fact is, you made a bet that didn't pan out. Accept it and move on. Learn from it and look for warning signs next time you do a kickstarter, or don't kickstart things.
    In general, I don't have much sympathy of people who spent money on KS, which is clearly selling nothing but wishful thinking.

    In this case, it is even worse since RG has not done anything well in gaming after ultima 7. 
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