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We Paid to Win & Lost - MMORPG.com

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  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,292

    Torval said:

    It's a great topic for clicks and should generate a heated discussion. My light criticism of your article, although well worded, is that you went for the easy selling points, glossed over the complexities that brought us here, and completely ignored the root cause and that is monetizing progression.

    You have a great writing style though and setup of a fun narrative so I like reading your articles whether I think you're on target or completely off the mark.



    Thanks for the feedback, appreciate it. Its something I'm aware of and work on. I'm capped at 1,000 words and generally end up cutting 500-1000 each time. Some times I'd be better off writing several focused pieces rather than trying to cram the entire breadth into that 1K. /nod /bow
    Torval
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 2,003
    TimEisen said:


    why is pay to win a huge problem in gaming? the world always under pay2win, even in sports. Look at the olympics, rich nations get more medals. Life isnt fair, stop crying about "fair"



    I always find sports fascinating. Sports are a simulation of PVP which is a simulation of death just like games. Every instinct in the human body is coded to survive. The result is we cheat to win, to prevent loss, to maximize assets and to prevent death - even simulated, at all costs. Cheating is in effect a survival mechanic and as a result it is inevitable in any form of competition or simulation involving loss. Especially in sports when the upside is millions of dollars which ensure a secure survival. The down side, you sit out for a bit.

    Millions fanatically embrace sports despite sports being rife with peopling paying to win (via PEDs) and its fine, we love it. Then every once in a great while an athlete gets caught and we turn our backs on them in disgust. We shun ridicule and shun them like we wouldn't have made that same bet in that same situation. We don't do it out of contempts for them, we do it out of contempt for them shattering the blissful illusion and forcing us to see what we try so hard not to. People will happily accept a thousand lies rather than face a single truth.

    I'm not against it so much as accepting of the fact that just like in sports, it has always been part of the process and it always will be. The form changed but its still the same old battle because that is what people are wired to do, survive. Frankly I prefer it happens legally in broad daylight with company oversight assuring quality and safety rather than illegally under the table through shady means where the consumer has little protection. Im not thinking of it in terms of good and bad, I'm thinking of it in terms of existing, always existing no matter what anyone does. If its going to exist I prefer to see it rather than pretend I don't.
    PED is the equivalent of using wall/speed hacks in games and if you like sports you hate that shit just like every gamer hate people using hacks.

    P2W is more like F1, everyone drives a car under the same regulations but the outcome is mostly determined by how much your team spent on the car instead of which person is the best driver.
    TimEisenNyctelios
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • KnightFalzKnightFalz Member RarePosts: 800
    Buying a computer that is able to play the type of games you enjoy isn't paying to win. It is simply part of the access cost to computer gaming.

    With such a ridiculous assertion right at the beginning of your article there was no point in continuing on, as you obviously don't understand the basics of what you are writing about.
    Kyleran
  • TimEisenTimEisen ColumnistMember EpicPosts: 3,292


    @TimEisen

    Tim... you mentioned the key point but jumped to the wrong conclusion IMHO.  Yes, it was possible to P2W and buy gold etc in games of old, and yes it was done in the shadows... but it was considered CHEATING! 

    Now it seems some of us are saying "If you can't beat em, join them!".  That's just never been my style.  To me it's simply still cheating.   I'm not asking for the model to go away, or to change any game that currently has it.  I'd just like there to be some more options for those of us who refuse to give in.





    I almost stood up and applauded this. I don't compromise easy when it comes to my values and I'm certainly not joining them. I'm just noting doing so is a part of being human. A part that is easy for most people to give into because, at the risk of sounding Star Warsy, that path is easy and leads to quicker rewards. Others might simply say they are being smart taking the path of least resistance. I say to each their own.

    Find what works for you and live it. Some people seek the calm quick route and others chase the uncharted storm riddled unknown. Besides, I've seen Training Day, I follow the media, rarely does the person with integrity come out ahead. Its a far more difficult and dangerous path. Frankly that makes me a bit more determined to pursue it knowing full well I will rarely live up to what I chase, which is how that path is supposed to be.

    I have one solid MMORPG example of this. Back in Star Wars Galaxies buffs essentially broke the game and the devs accepted it. Typical play meant you went to the "buff lines", paid 10k, got turned into a Superman (ironic considering him the beacon of integrity right), joined a raid group for the BS bonus then went and solo mauled stuff way higher level than you for major money and XP. It made leveling and money incredibly easy, almost as easy as the AFK bot dancer levelers lol.

    Out of stubborn integrity I refused to get buffed and leveled my character without ever using any buffs. It took forever, it was substantially more challenging and when I mastered my profession it made it that much more rewarding. Most importantly the only one that knew was me, and I was content with that. I didn't do it for youtube views or because SOE paid me to shill. I didn't do it for e-fame or even server fame. I did it because I thought it was the right way to level, the hard way. All that said a wiser man might say I was a fool. My accomplishment meant nothing and consumed far more time than it should have. Buffs were developer created and approved for Pete's sake! Maybe the line between stubborn integrity and stubborn stupidity is a fine one? I don't know but I was happy leveling that character so it worked for me.

    Keep in mind my world view was largely shaped by my adopted parents, Superman and my Nintendo. /shrug
    laseritSedrynTyrosKyleranMadFrenchieinfomatz
    I used to role-play a Warrior Priest now I role-play a writer.
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,613

    Torval said:







    why is pay to win a huge problem in gaming? the world always under pay2win, even in sports. Look at the olympics, rich nations get more medals. Life isnt fair, stop crying about "fair"






    Pretty much how I feel about it. There are people who have to take the bus and people who drive exotic cars. I'm not going to yell "P2W!!" as they drive past me. I may not like it that someone got hired for a really good position because they are a relative of the boss, but that's life.


    I usually yell, "Rich bastard!" as they pass by me in my Hyundai Sonata. :lol:



    I usually think, "just wait until The Purge, motherfu..."

    ;)
    TorvalTimEisen

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    I think the problem is many here will only look at games with the proper hype stamp approval on it. There is a certification process to that, articles have to be written, hype before game is released have to be generated, interviews with the developer in person (not just audio) have to be given and with commentary afterwards.

    Only those games are allowed on the list of possibilities and that is why they keep getting fooled over and over and over again

    meaning...you dont have to play P2W and you dont have to play games with loot crates either for that matter

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • AriesTigerAriesTiger Member UncommonPosts: 407

    rodingo said:

    I sort of still miss MXO. Hmmm



    same I really miss 3 game. MXO, COV, WAR. :( :(
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    edited July 2017


    why is pay to win a huge problem in gaming? the world always under pay2win, even in sports. Look at the olympics, rich nations get more medals. Life isnt fair, stop crying about "fair"



    Ah the cry of the ignorant. Life isn't fair? That is why you have games ... oh wait, that was taken from us too.

    Seeing you used "Life", let's go ahead and use the board game called Life for an example:

    Players sit down and roll dice and make decisions. Every player plays the same game of chance and fun and crazy results occur that makes the game fun. Everyone is on an even playing field on their path to possible success (winning). This is called a game.

    Now you come along and accept allowing players to pay real cash in order to get advantages that increase their chances of advancing. The very concept of what a game is has vanished.

    RMT affects the entire industry. It has drastically altered how games are made, from marketing through mechanics. The very concept of the game design must be altered at the most fundamental level in order to incorporate RMT. Entire genres have vanished or been redefined to the point they don't exist as they once were. RMT has shut down even the consideration of certain styles of games by mainstream developers, hence why the indie movement has taken hold.

    Real consumer based development is nearly dead not because the those markets don't exist but because they don't maximize capital over an "investment".

    There is either understanding of this topic or there is acceptance through ignorance. The affects are real, measured and visible for all to see.
    TimEisenlaseritIselinKyleran

    You stay sassy!

  • AriesTigerAriesTiger Member UncommonPosts: 407

    Tamanous said:





    why is pay to win a huge problem in gaming? the world always under pay2win, even in sports. Look at the olympics, rich nations get more medals. Life isnt fair, stop crying about "fair"






    Ah the cry of the ignorant. Life isn't fair? That is why you have games ... oh wait, that was taken from us too.



    Do research and please enlighten yourself with an ounce of historical reference.



    Is that like a sentence, a word or paragraph? Time is money!
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,951
    TimEisen said:

    Out of stubborn integrity...
    That's what a huge chunk of people can no longer relate to.   


    TimEisenlaseritNycteliosKyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited July 2017
    @TimEisen

    Tim... you mentioned the key point but jumped to the wrong conclusion IMHO.  Yes, it was possible to P2W and buy gold etc in games of old, and yes it was done in the shadows... but it was considered CHEATING! 

    Now it seems some of us are saying "If you can't beat em, join them!".  That's just never been my style.  To me it's simply still cheating.   I'm not asking for the model to go away, or to change any game that currently has it.  I'd just like there to be some more options for those of us who refuse to give in.


    I was just about to add that it's been scientifically studied and proved (in so far as science gives universal "truths") that a certain percentage of folks will always try to cheat when there's a benefit to be had from cheating.  The fact that folks will attempt to skirt rules is not a valid argument for eliminating said rule.
    Slapshot1188TimEisenlaserittehweweNycteliosKyleran

    image
  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993

    Tamanous said:





    why is pay to win a huge problem in gaming? the world always under pay2win, even in sports. Look at the olympics, rich nations get more medals. Life isnt fair, stop crying about "fair"






    Ah the cry of the ignorant. Life isn't fair? That is why you have games ... oh wait, that was taken from us too.



    Do research and please enlighten yourself with an ounce of historical reference.



    Is that like a sentence, a word or paragraph? Time is money!
    Read the edit. Your quote no longer exists.

    You stay sassy!

  • ErevusErevus Member UncommonPosts: 94
    Well I have to agree and disagree with the OP.
    Yes it was us who brought the p2w model in mmorpg genre and
    our "please take my money" attitude BUT things are not predestined 
    and by no means we have to live with it.
    All we need is to change our attitude and our perspective for what 
    we want as a fair model of paying for our entertainment.
    I still remember the embargo of a small community in my country towards the local
    meat markets when they raised by 30% the prices.
    It lasted a month or so before prices went back to previous rates and even lower.
    We have what they want ($$), we just need to learn how to get what they have with 
    a fair trade.
    "We do not stop playing because we grow old. We grow old because we stop playing"

    Benjamin Franklin
  • RobbgobbRobbgobb Member UncommonPosts: 659
    Time is precious to people and that is as much a cause for the effect as anything. I read about it from the authors of articles here even about how they don't have time to dedicate. A lot of people will just pay more money to skip past things they don't find fun to just get to the fun. Then there is the complaining that there is not a lot of fun there because generally just paying to get to even slower grind from some of those people.

    I am playing Secret World Legends at the moment. I am a Grandmaster in The Secret World. I did not get far in that game because I took my time and had no friends. Legends is easier and so I am playing through the story. Was in a Twitch chat where someone said it was P2W hardcore and told me that I was going to be stuck. I guess that could be true but I am there for the story so if I get to that point and can't do the story then I can either grind or stop. I don't have a gun held to my head to keep playing. I can do the easy thing of "I got what I paid for so can go do something else." Plus it helps that the locked boxes there can be sold.

    Games have to make money. I accept this and buy fewer games because of the money systems in games. I know what I like and don't like. I can't blame others who do things the game company has added. I find what is fun to me and decide what that is worth to me. Comparing the price of a movie to price of a game is something I see a lot now. They are two different things to me. One is sitting back and enjoying without having to do anything and the other is about finding what is fun and doing that (which I have to say I would like to break all the game devs fingers who think jumping puzzles should be in MMOs) which means sometimes accepting grinding through some parts that I don't like.
  • GavyneGavyne Member UncommonPosts: 116
    Sovrath said:
    But the thing is those games helped spawn the whole "buy items for cash".

    I always saw news on Everquest where they were talking about people selling items on e-bay. So there has always been a segment of the population who were willing to purchase items/services. And companies were constantly combatting this, spending money to stop it.

    I suppose they woke up one day and realized that they were spending money to stop people from doing something that they were going to do anyway AND other companies would make money off their efforts.

    So they decided they would rather make money off their work if there was a market for it.
    Bingo, this is more what really happened rather than simply "we did it".  Yes we are the reason P2W exists, because gamers have bought gold, items, and powerleveling since the dawn of MMORPG's.  But we are not the reason why gaming companies shifted to own the RMT market.

    Gaming companies were looking for ways to increase revenue, and they realized they were not going to stop people from buying & selling online goods.  So rather than watch 3rd parties profit off their work, they went in and developed legal gold buying, legal leveling boosts, and legal item trades.  This way they pocket the money and they get to control the value and inflation of their ingame gold/items.

    I used to buy/sell during early days of EQ, AC1, and DAOC.  Those were the days when you could move from game to game without breaking your bank.  We used to sell off the gold/accounts in games we no longer play, so we could get a small amount of help starting new elsewhere.  There were times when my group of friends would never have gone back to certain games, such as EQ or DAOC, without the ability to twink up a new character or two.

    People often don't realize gold used to be a lot cheaper back in the days.  Now?  It's so expensive buying direct, from new games like BDO's pearl market, to GW2's gems currency exchange, to even old games like EQ, the exchange rates are awful.  P2W definitely have made games more expensive to play, not to mention it ruins some aspects of gaming.  I'll use EQ's progression servers as an example.

    I used to enjoy EQ's progression servers, I would jump to play on a new progression server anytime they were released.  They were a blast from the past, nostalgia overload.  People starting from classic EQ at level 1, having to barter their way up to obtaining new equipment, making gold, trading for weapons, buying/selling at the Commonlands tunnel, it was all very fun.  But ever since Kronos were introduced and made legal on progression servers (Kronos is Daybreak/EQ currency), you couldn't buy anything worth while ingame without having to trade Kronos.  Everything for sale, even the lowbie items, required you to trade Kronos.  It's a classic example of P2W and how it ruined what was once a genuine nostalgia experience.  This is why I no longer participate in new EQ progression servers.

    Back in the days free market competition made things affordable, and it made games a lot more fun for people.  Now with companies controlling the value of their currency, the exchange rates suck, and you end up spending way more now to play these so called "free to play" games with P2W built-in.  Your time put into the games are devalued, certain aspects of the gameplay is cheapened.  I do miss the old days.
    Dvoratehwewe

    Played: EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-LOTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO-BDO
    Waiting For: CU & Vanilla WoW

  • DvoraDvora Member UncommonPosts: 489
    edited July 2017


    why is pay to win a huge problem in gaming? the world always under pay2win, even in sports. Look at the olympics, rich nations get more medals. Life isnt fair, stop crying about "fair"



    Shut your piehole imo. Games are not real life, they are an escape from real life, or should be. P2W brings real life into the game and destroys any chance of a level playing field. Games by definition are supposed to be fair, in that equal effort and equal skill = equal chance aside from whatever RNG may be involved.

    Aside from that, MMO's casino like features should also be investigated for Illegal gambling. The government should tax the crap out of any game publisher that sells RNG boxes to the point where they just go away.
    MadFrenchie
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    why is pay to win a huge problem in gaming? the world always under pay2win, even in sports. Look at the olympics, rich nations get more medals. Life isnt fair, stop crying about "fair"
    I dunno, it depends on the sport. Try to outski a Norwegian and many of the best soccer countries are rather poor. Jamaica is poor but have the worlds fastest runners. While the larger countries do tend to get more medals I don't think there is an actual tie to BNP for the amount of medals.

    Genetics and interests makes a huge impact even though good training certainly helps and being rich (or supported by rich) means you can train more.

    That is really a lesser problem, it doesn't matter if a "win" kit cost $1 or $10 000, the real problem is that it makes the game less fun because the point of almost all MMORPGs is to get stuff and when you can buy all that stuff for cash what is the point?

    Many games sell win stuff cheap enough for at least the majority of the gamers, the problem is not that people can afford it but that it takes away the point of the game. When you bought the top tiered raid gear what do you have left in the game?

    When people actually need to work for the stuff they play longer.
  • sakersaker Member UncommonPosts: 1,239
    - pay2win is just another symptom of the deep sickness of Murica, the growing neo-feudal corporate-fascism masquerading as "democracy". When you have a few who believe with religious fanaticism that they are "entitled" to "win" as a almost (and sometimes direct) literal divine right, this is the kind of thing that follows throughout the "society". You have to always remember that their wealth is not as the mythology would have you believe come to them because they are such special, precious (and superior!) snowflakes. No the actual history shows otherwise. Luck mostly, just plain dumb luck! - and then corruption, lies cheating stealing... Was Edison this intrepid genius slaving away, tirelessly, selflessly, and won his wealth by his great hard work? Look to the actual history, it wasn't that way. - Don't believe that wealth is righteous, "earned", and "deserved", don't believe the propaganda LIES.
  • WylfWylf Member UncommonPosts: 368

    Torval said:

    It's a great topic for clicks and should generate a heated discussion. My light criticism of your article, although well worded, is that you went for the easy selling points, glossed over the complexities that brought us here, and completely ignored the root cause and that is monetizing progression.

    You have a great writing style though and setup of a fun narrative so I like reading your articles whether I think you're on target or completely off the mark.



    Though I agree, I would have gone further. This is a typical Hollow Rant. No real substance.
    Kyleran
  • cloud3431cloud3431 Member CommonPosts: 9
    it's not like p2w hasn't been around since the beginning of gaming. you pay to win the game.......i really don't get why it's a bad thing for f2p games to want to make money to keep their game alive for thousands of players. or even b2p having a cash shop. the base price isn't enough to keep it going for years maybe 10s of years. if you're planning on play a game for free, it shouldn't be a problem for others to pay to keep the game alive for you to play for free. most overlook(don't know how either) this fact. but don't whine about the ones that spend any kind of money, obviously they're going to get an advantage(if they even do get one), they paid for it. which, makes you able to play for free even longer. gotta love when people overlook this simple thing.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 10,951
    cloud3431 said:
    it's not like p2w hasn't been around since the beginning of gaming. you pay to win the game.......i really don't get why it's a bad thing for f2p games to want to make money to keep their game alive for thousands of players. or even b2p having a cash shop. the base price isn't enough to keep it going for years maybe 10s of years. if you're planning on play a game for free, it shouldn't be a problem for others to pay to keep the game alive for you to play for free. most overlook(don't know how either) this fact. but don't whine about the ones that spend any kind of money, obviously they're going to get an advantage(if they even do get one), they paid for it. which, makes you able to play for free even longer. gotta love when people overlook this simple thing.
    What about people who don't want to play for free but want an even playing field?  How'd you miss such a "simple thing"?

    Kyleran

    "I should point out that no other company has shipped out a beta on a disc before this." - Official Mortal Online Lead Community Moderator

    Starvault's reponse to criticism related to having a handful of players as the official "test" team for a supposed MMO: "We've just have another 10ish folk kind enough to voulenteer added tot the test team" (SIC) This explains much about the state of the game :-)

    Proudly wearing the Harbinger badge since Dec 23, 2017. 

    Coined the phrase "Role-Playing a Development Team" January 2018

    "Oddly Slap is the main reason I stay in these forums." - Mystichaze April 9th 2018

    My ignore list finally has one occupant after 12 years. I am the strongest supporter of free speech on here, but free speech does not mean forced listening. Have fun my friend. Hope you find a new stalking target.

  • PeskyPesky Member UncommonPosts: 154
    I count myself blessed to be a 'carebear'. I can just ignore all the pay to win shenanigans. The amount of money other people spend on a game has no effect on me or my playstyle.

    It's the poor old PvP player who suffers the most from this BS.
  • CryolitycalCryolitycal Member UncommonPosts: 205
    Stop investing money and time in what you consider to be unfair revenue models. I loved Neverwinter, it became clearly P2W, I left behind 2 years of time investment and a top PvP account. I could tolerate WoW's token system however, as it was much less of an issue in competitive PvP, so I continued to give Blizz money.
    If you are paying a developer that is shamelessly exploiting P2W, stop - especially if you feel nauseous with each minute and dollar you spend on that particular game. Just stop, I know it's hard to leave behind a big time investment you will never recover, but make your peace with it and put it behind you, it will be better in the end.
    ErevusKyleran
  • RPGMASTERGAMERRPGMASTERGAMER Member UncommonPosts: 516
    was playing albion online today, im playing with friends from others game, so we start and im playing ALOT and im reaching T4... got standar quality item... one friend already T4 with rare set relique item, he just buy 200$ from the official website and turn his gold for money righ away...

    that a pvp game.... for me to get relic item as a f2p i need get into zone or hellgame and kill a special boss.... now if you try go there ... they are already peoples with amazing full relic set who will kill you !!

    peoples will reply : if you skilled you can win... why whale would be less skilled than you ?? they can also kill you !!

    so i went to buy my island... and it FUCKING EXPENSIVE !! some peoples are already at tier 4-5
    ( realy high)

    that a full loot game pvp... but you can just buy into power... peoples are fine with that ??

    i mean if i got around 1k to spend i could literaly make myself the best gears kinda and be realy strong...


    im to old for these shitty p2win... it almost killed my will to keep play albion online today...

    i want my mmorpg fair, and yes im okay if you are no life and play more than me !! you actualy do the work..

    that kinda crazy they sell gold in their website...

    where the genre going...
    Kyleran
  • BruceYeeBruceYee Member RarePosts: 1,607
    was playing albion online today, im playing with friends from others game, so we start and im playing ALOT and im reaching T4... got standar quality item... one friend already T4 with rare set relique item, he just buy 200$ from the official website and turn his gold for money righ away...

    that a pvp game.... for me to get relic item as a f2p i need get into zone or hellgame and kill a special boss.... now if you try go there ... they are already peoples with amazing full relic set who will kill you !!

    peoples will reply : if you skilled you can win... why whale would be less skilled than you ?? they can also kill you !!

    so i went to buy my island... and it FUCKING EXPENSIVE !! some peoples are already at tier 4-5
    ( realy high)

    that a full loot game pvp... but you can just buy into power... peoples are fine with that ??

    i mean if i got around 1k to spend i could literaly make myself the best gears kinda and be realy strong...


    im to old for these shitty p2win... it almost killed my will to keep play albion online today...

    i want my mmorpg fair, and yes im okay if you are no life and play more than me !! you actualy do the work..

    that kinda crazy they sell gold in their website...

    where the genre going...
    You would still have to level up everything if you want to make the gear yourself. You also need to level up your combat skills otherwise you won't even be able to equip the good gear you buy. I'm in T4, didn't buy any gold and it says I've played 9hours. If you have done hardcore grinding/farming in other games Albion's really isn't so bad.

    About the topic though I pay to lose all the time in games and never learn my lesson. I'm a sucker for the gambling aspect of it when the companies don't get too greedy but when it's obvious that they are whalin' I steer clear cause that's a long disastrous slope.
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