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Final Fantasy XIV - Patch 4.01 or How Not to Solve AFKers in PvP - MMORPG.com

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,126

imageFinal Fantasy XIV - Patch 4.01 or How Not to Solve AFKers in PvP - MMORPG.com

Patch 4.01, the first post-Stormblood patch, included heavy handed nerfs to PvP experience in order to address the AFK issue, and it’s my opinion that the changes will do little to discourage AFKers while simultaneously punishing everyone else.

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Comments

  • DeathtognomesDeathtognomes Member UncommonPosts: 104
    quit yet crying. ;p
    jimmywolfVantonxNephethLustsViper482iamspamicusJHLotBdrivendawn
  • jimmywolfjimmywolf Member UncommonPosts: 239
    not sure if your post is suppose to be a clever joke or random troll but either way it falls flat...


    he does make a valid point punishing the masses who were use to something rewarding X amount an forcing anyone who did not get in early to suffer more, does nothing to address someone willing to sit afk waiting for free xp.


    they should done a report system wow had it were it would kick you out BG an put 10 min debuff on you think it went up higher with more times reported forget.
    barasawaiamspamicuswingooddrivendawnLahuzer



  • DragnelusDragnelus Member EpicPosts: 3,052
    jimmywolf said:
    not sure if your post is suppose to be a clever joke or random troll but either way it falls flat...


    he does make a valid point punishing the masses who were use to something rewarding X amount an forcing anyone who did not get in early to suffer more, does nothing to address someone willing to sit afk waiting for free xp.


    they should done a report system wow had it were it would kick you out BG an put 10 min debuff on you think it went up higher with more times reported forget.
    They have that. I needed toilet and came back was kicked with 30 min debuff.

    Maybe now dungeon ques goes faster.

  • AlbatroesAlbatroes Member LegendaryPosts: 6,493
    They lowered exp gain in pvp because 1) it was faster (as a dps) to level up vs dungeons and 2) people weren't even trying to win. Some people would just run to based and continuously die until the match ended.
    DragnelusVantonxdrivendawn
  • eruexeeruexe Member UncommonPosts: 40
    so this is why it felt slower now.
  • KalebGraysonKalebGrayson Member RarePosts: 430
    This really isn't a PVP game. The PVP is still fun, don't get me wrong. Just don't expect them (or really any game for that matter) to do it right.
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 6,826
    I haven't read patch notes, but ~maybe~

    Just maybe they dropped the PvP XP because it was too high across the board, and not really anything directly to do with AFKers.
    VantonxViper482
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,838
    Good,  PvP should not be giving more PvE xp than PvE activities.  If you want to incentivize it a bit that's fine but the idea that it's faster to PvP in order to progress in PvE is an xp tuning problem.
    VantonxbarasawaViper482iamspamicusGhavriggdrivendawn
  • VantonxVantonx Member CommonPosts: 9
    Lol punishing the masses? It's pvp... In anything competitive the WINNING team earns more than the losing. That's just the way the world works. Want to get big rewards? Then you should be winning. This promotes competiveness even more which is never a bad thing. Hell even in dungeons players who are "better" (tanks who pull big, healers who can sustain that, and dps who bring their best dmg.) Will be rewarded more than players who wipe and are just slower. Stop expecting to get the same as every other player, not gonna happen
  • Geddon95405Geddon95405 Member UncommonPosts: 110
    should be same xp win or lose, but it should overall be equal, not greater, than doing pve stuff

    just lets everyone choose their own path

    afk arguments can be made for virtually any mp team game but the solution is to add anti-afk tools instead of taking compelling rewards away from the bulk of legit pvp players

    taking rewards away, or lowering them too much, just turns a fun activity into an unbearable grind
    barasawa

    Crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women...

  • REd-WindREd-Wind Member UncommonPosts: 125
    edited July 2017
    Having seperate set of skills for pvp is just ridiculous its not like you can practice them before the que, I didnt even bother with it and did you know you can use your regular skills in pvp? I did wheN I played it, having pvp being overly complicated is ridiculous they should take their time and make pvp servers where the nation's battle against each other and can disable pvp mode only for storyline quest.
  • VantonxVantonx Member CommonPosts: 9


    should be same xp win or lose, but it should overall be equal, not greater, than doing pve stuff



    just lets everyone choose their own path



    afk arguments can be made for virtually any mp team game but the solution is to add anti-afk tools instead of taking compelling rewards away from the bulk of legit pvp players



    taking rewards away, or lowering them too much, just turns a fun activity into an unbearable grind



    It's hard to compare this to other pvp multiplayer games since in those games, there are tons of of game mode options and all sorts of different things to take into account. Most people didn't buy ffxiv to play pvp to be honest. And if you still enjoy it, you're still gonna play it. You're not even improving your pve skill in pvp since the abilities are so different. Why should the team that loses get the same xp as the team that wins? They don't even do that in other pvp games
  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Member UncommonPosts: 326
    It's interesting to see how many people are in agreement with this change. Personally, I think it was a stupid change. Previously, winners in PvP gained more marks, but everyone gained the same experience. And it was half decent exp - less per hour than PotD 50-60 grinding, but far less Mind-Numblingly Boring. Dungeons were still better exp than both if you could instant queue, but the 30-90 minute DPS Queue Timers made that impossible as a DPS class.

    Until they fix the underlying issue with DPS Queues in general (Boring Tank/Healer gameplay compared to DPS gameplay), I think having PvP as a strong contender for experience (roughly equivalent to dungeon running - as it was) was a good idea.
    VantonxViper482MikeB
  • VantonxVantonx Member CommonPosts: 9
    edited July 2017


    It's interesting to see how many people are in agreement with this change. Personally, I think it was a stupid change. Previously, winners in PvP gained more marks, but everyone gained the same experience. And it was half decent exp - less per hour than PotD 50-60 grinding, but far less Mind-Numblingly Boring. Dungeons were still better exp than both if you could instant queue, but the 30-90 minute DPS Queue Timers made that impossible as a DPS class.



    Until they fix the underlying issue with DPS Queues in general (Boring Tank/Healer gameplay compared to DPS gameplay), I think having PvP as a strong contender for experience (roughly equivalent to dungeon running - as it was) was a good idea.



    That's really silly... of course dps queues are gonna be awful, and potd is the answer to that. The long dps queues is a problem CREATED by the community. They cannot fix a disproportionate amount of people queuing for dps compared to tanks and healers. How can they fix something like that? If you don't have enough healers and tanks for the amount of dps queuing you just can't "fix" it. HOWEVER, potd remedies this by removing the requirement of a tank and healer. It's almost like the psychology field the U.S. everyone tries to study it and then they wonder why they can't find a job easily, it's because they're not special. And pvp is meant to reward the winners. If you want to level a dps you have to accept that it's going be harder, or that there won't be as many options. To say that tank and healer is boring is PURELY subjective. I know many people who think dps is super boring. With healing and tanking you can easily keep things interesting by testing yourselves with bigger pulls
    cameltosis
  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Member UncommonPosts: 326

    Vantonx said:





    It's interesting to see how many people are in agreement with this change. Personally, I think it was a stupid change. Previously, winners in PvP gained more marks, but everyone gained the same experience. And it was half decent exp - less per hour than PotD 50-60 grinding, but far less Mind-Numblingly Boring. Dungeons were still better exp than both if you could instant queue, but the 30-90 minute DPS Queue Timers made that impossible as a DPS class.





    Until they fix the underlying issue with DPS Queues in general (Boring Tank/Healer gameplay compared to DPS gameplay), I think having PvP as a strong contender for experience (roughly equivalent to dungeon running - as it was) was a good idea.






    That's really silly... of course dps queues are gonna be awful, and potd is the answer to that. The long dps queues is a problem CREATED by the community. They cannot fix a disproportionate amount of people queuing for dps compared to tanks and healers. How can they fix something like that? If you don't have enough healers and tanks for the amount of dps queuing you just can't "fix" it. HOWEVER, potd remedies this by removing the requirement of a tank and healer. It's almost like the psychology field the U.S. everyone tries to study it and then they wonder why they can't find a job easily, it's because they're not special. And pvp is meant to reward the winners. If you want to level a dps you have to accept that it's going be harder, or that there won't be as many options. To say that tank and healer is boring is PURELY subjective. I know many people who think dps is super boring. With healing and tanking you can easily keep things interesting by testing yourselves with bigger pulls



    So PotD should be an answer to terrible dps queues but PvP should not be an answer? Is that what you're saying here?
    Viper482
  • VantonxVantonx Member CommonPosts: 9




    Vantonx said:








    It's interesting to see how many people are in agreement with this change. Personally, I think it was a stupid change. Previously, winners in PvP gained more marks, but everyone gained the same experience. And it was half decent exp - less per hour than PotD 50-60 grinding, but far less Mind-Numblingly Boring. Dungeons were still better exp than both if you could instant queue, but the 30-90 minute DPS Queue Timers made that impossible as a DPS class.







    Until they fix the underlying issue with DPS Queues in general (Boring Tank/Healer gameplay compared to DPS gameplay), I think having PvP as a strong contender for experience (roughly equivalent to dungeon running - as it was) was a good idea.









    That's really silly... of course dps queues are gonna be awful, and potd is the answer to that. The long dps queues is a problem CREATED by the community. They cannot fix a disproportionate amount of people queuing for dps compared to tanks and healers. How can they fix something like that? If you don't have enough healers and tanks for the amount of dps queuing you just can't "fix" it. HOWEVER, potd remedies this by removing the requirement of a tank and healer. It's almost like the psychology field the U.S. everyone tries to study it and then they wonder why they can't find a job easily, it's because they're not special. And pvp is meant to reward the winners. If you want to level a dps you have to accept that it's going be harder, or that there won't be as many options. To say that tank and healer is boring is PURELY subjective. I know many people who think dps is super boring. With healing and tanking you can easily keep things interesting by testing yourselves with bigger pulls






    So PotD should be an answer to terrible dps queues but PvP should not be an answer? Is that what you're saying here?



    I think my big thing is that I don't want the amount of xp earned from winning to match losing. But I also want it to be viable to an extent, you also have to remember that dps queues are only horrible because of the playerbase. Potd was a response to that, and they tried to make fates more viable as well.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,838
    Tbh it was stupid because you're going to be worse at playing your class by leveling up via PvP than you would be even from PotD.  At least there you're using the same skills......
    VantonxViper482
  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Member UncommonPosts: 326

    Vantonx said:








    Vantonx said:











    It's interesting to see how many people are in agreement with this change. Personally, I think it was a stupid change. Previously, winners in PvP gained more marks, but everyone gained the same experience. And it was half decent exp - less per hour than PotD 50-60 grinding, but far less Mind-Numblingly Boring. Dungeons were still better exp than both if you could instant queue, but the 30-90 minute DPS Queue Timers made that impossible as a DPS class.









    Until they fix the underlying issue with DPS Queues in general (Boring Tank/Healer gameplay compared to DPS gameplay), I think having PvP as a strong contender for experience (roughly equivalent to dungeon running - as it was) was a good idea.












    That's really silly... of course dps queues are gonna be awful, and potd is the answer to that. The long dps queues is a problem CREATED by the community. They cannot fix a disproportionate amount of people queuing for dps compared to tanks and healers. How can they fix something like that? If you don't have enough healers and tanks for the amount of dps queuing you just can't "fix" it. HOWEVER, potd remedies this by removing the requirement of a tank and healer. It's almost like the psychology field the U.S. everyone tries to study it and then they wonder why they can't find a job easily, it's because they're not special. And pvp is meant to reward the winners. If you want to level a dps you have to accept that it's going be harder, or that there won't be as many options. To say that tank and healer is boring is PURELY subjective. I know many people who think dps is super boring. With healing and tanking you can easily keep things interesting by testing yourselves with bigger pulls









    So PotD should be an answer to terrible dps queues but PvP should not be an answer? Is that what you're saying here?






    I think my big thing is that I don't want the amount of xp earned from winning to match losing. But I also want it to be viable to an extent, you also have to remember that dps queues are only horrible because of the playerbase. Potd was a response to that, and they tried to make fates more viable as well.



    I disagree that DPS queues being horrible is entirely because of the population. Browsing the official forums and reddit, a common trend I see amongst tanks quitting is due to how boring their class is to play (especially now after the expansion). As a "career" main/raid tank across all MMO's I 've played, I also echo this sentiment. Tanking in FFXIV is the least engaging activity I've experienced in this game - healing is marginally more engaging (its also directly proportional to how bad the rest of the group is at avoiding aoes).

    Furthermore, as a tank, my performance has really weak effect on the overall success of the group. Encounters are not tuned taking into account tank DPS, so all I literally have to do is sit in tank stance using aggro combo. Since bosses are all immune to my stuns/interrupts, these don't matter. All that matters is can I cycle cool downs for tank busters and push 1,2,3.
    Now, lets say I optimize my rotations, and do everything perfectly? Does much change? Not really, we may kill things marginally faster, but that's much more dependent upon the DPS's ability.
    So what if I mass pull to speed up dungeon runs? If I mass pull and the DPS is incompetent, and only does single target attacks, then we are actually progressing at a SLOWER rate since now healer's damage potential is gone - because they are spam healing me.

    This lack of engagement of the tank's role towards party success is what many consider "boring". Its also why I can't stand to play tank in FFXIV. It requires the skill of braindead monkey to operate, and a perfect operator is not operating at a much higher level.

    Healing - If the DPS is operating perfectly, the incoming damage is very low, so you can spam your attack spell...No real rotations, no real reactive damage abilities. I often felt like I was solely there just to be a buffer for when someone in the group fucks up. During AoE Heavy Fights, Health bar whack-a-mole is slightly more entertaining than tanking, I'll give you that. Compare this to a gameplay like Red Mage. I am all over the battle-field, building up mana, throwing heals in a pinch, raising those to have fallen, dumping mana to others. I'm much more engaged, and my actions actually matter to the overall potential of the fight.

    So, yes, I think the state of DPS queues is HEAVILY reliant on the poor design choices Square Enix have made in regards to tanks (and a lesser extent, healers). If these classes were more engaging to play, you'd definitely see a lot more of them and queues would progress much faster.
  • VantonxVantonx Member CommonPosts: 9




    Vantonx said:












    Vantonx said:














    It's interesting to see how many people are in agreement with this change. Personally, I think it was a stupid change. Previously, winners in PvP gained more marks, but everyone gained the same experience. And it was half decent exp - less per hour than PotD 50-60 grinding, but far less Mind-Numblingly Boring. Dungeons were still better exp than both if you could instant queue, but the 30-90 minute DPS Queue Timers made that impossible as a DPS class.











    Until they fix the underlying issue with DPS Queues in general (Boring Tank/Healer gameplay compared to DPS gameplay), I think having PvP as a strong contender for experience (roughly equivalent to dungeon running - as it was) was a good idea.















    That's really silly... of course dps queues are gonna be awful, and potd is the answer to that. The long dps queues is a problem CREATED by the community. They cannot fix a disproportionate amount of people queuing for dps compared to tanks and healers. How can they fix something like that? If you don't have enough healers and tanks for the amount of dps queuing you just can't "fix" it. HOWEVER, potd remedies this by removing the requirement of a tank and healer. It's almost like the psychology field the U.S. everyone tries to study it and then they wonder why they can't find a job easily, it's because they're not special. And pvp is meant to reward the winners. If you want to level a dps you have to accept that it's going be harder, or that there won't be as many options. To say that tank and healer is boring is PURELY subjective. I know many people who think dps is super boring. With healing and tanking you can easily keep things interesting by testing yourselves with bigger pulls












    So PotD should be an answer to terrible dps queues but PvP should not be an answer? Is that what you're saying here?









    I think my big thing is that I don't want the amount of xp earned from winning to match losing. But I also want it to be viable to an extent, you also have to remember that dps queues are only horrible because of the playerbase. Potd was a response to that, and they tried to make fates more viable as well.






    I disagree that DPS queues being horrible is entirely because of the population. Browsing the official forums and reddit, a common trend I see amongst tanks quitting is due to how boring their class is to play (especially now after the expansion). As a "career" main/raid tank across all MMO's I 've played, I also echo this sentiment. Tanking in FFXIV is the least engaging activity I've experienced in this game - healing is marginally more engaging (its also directly proportional to how bad the rest of the group is at avoiding aoes).



    Furthermore, as a tank, my performance has really weak effect on the overall success of the group. Encounters are not tuned taking into account tank DPS, so all I literally have to do is sit in tank stance using aggro combo. Since bosses are all immune to my stuns/interrupts, these don't matter. All that matters is can I cycle cool downs for tank busters and push 1,2,3.

    Now, lets say I optimize my rotations, and do everything perfectly? Does much change? Not really, we may kill things marginally faster, but that's much more dependent upon the DPS's ability.

    So what if I mass pull to speed up dungeon runs? If I mass pull and the DPS is incompetent, and only does single target attacks, then we are actually progressing at a SLOWER rate since now healer's damage potential is gone - because they are spam healing me.



    This lack of engagement of the tank's role towards party success is what many consider "boring". Its also why I can't stand to play tank in FFXIV. It requires the skill of braindead monkey to operate, and a perfect operator is not operating at a much higher level.



    Healing - If the DPS is operating perfectly, the incoming damage is very low, so you can spam your attack spell...No real rotations, no real reactive damage abilities. I often felt like I was solely there just to be a buffer for when someone in the group fucks up. During AoE Heavy Fights, Health bar whack-a-mole is slightly more entertaining than tanking, I'll give you that. Compare this to a gameplay like Red Mage. I am all over the battle-field, building up mana, throwing heals in a pinch, raising those to have fallen, dumping mana to others. I'm much more engaged, and my actions actually matter to the overall potential of the fight.



    So, yes, I think the state of DPS queues is HEAVILY reliant on the poor design choices Square Enix have made in regards to tanks (and a lesser extent, healers). If these classes were more engaging to play, you'd definitely see a lot more of them and queues would progress much faster.



    Players have a choice in what to play. I've already said I know a TON of people who love tanking and healing. It's literally just your opinion that dps is more fun. This is the case in every mmo pretty much, the tanks and healers always have faster queues. So yes, it's on the players
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Member EpicPosts: 3,967
    Non-consensual PVE.
    "As far as the forum code of conduct, I would think it's a bit outdated and in need of a refre *CLOSED*" 

    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,411
    How would you feel if they had buffed xp by 30% for winning instead of nerfing it for losing?
    Viper482
    ....
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,987
    YashaX said:
    How would you feel if they had buffed xp by 30% for winning instead of nerfing it for losing?
    Probably would have been preferable as players always hate losing something they had previously.
    Viper482

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  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 408
    edited July 2017


    This really isn't a PVP game. The PVP is still fun, don't get me wrong. Just don't expect them (or really any game for that matter) to do it right.



    Wow... what a cynical, and grossly apologetic point of view.

    If you're not going to try to do something right, then don't do it at all. Pointing to other MMOs and saying "well they don't do it right, either" is pure deflection, and nothing more.

    The topic isn't about "PvP in other MMOs". It's about PvP in FFXIV.

    PvP is something Yoshida was keen and very enthusiastic about implementing in FFXIV, and he made this clear very early in the development. He'd explained how his history in MMOs includes being a top-ranking PvP'er in DAoC, among other things. So, someone who is a self-described big fan of PvP, has spent so much time PvP'ing in a 3-way competitive setting (among others), on top of being, you know.. the Director and Producer of a popular MMORPG.

    Let's not forget he's the same guy whom, unironically, recently argued the importance of developers putting in the hard work of doing something well/right - advice he could have used a number of times since ARR's launch, given the number of flubs and complete misses he's made in his time.

    The last thing people should be doing is making excuses, saying, "well, no MMO gets it right, so we shouldn't expect FFXIV to either". That is *such* lazy and apologetic thinking. Wow.

    This is why Yoshida continues to get away with implementing haphazard, half-baked ideas like this in FFXIV (and there are plenty going back over its relatively short life so far... Verminion, Diadem 1 and 2, and so on)... because there's always loyal fans right there to start hurling excuses, defenses, and deflections for it.

    This thing with PvP demonstrates, once again, that Yoshida does *not* understand his player base, nor does he understand how players think. I guess during all his time playing MMOs, he never bothered to pay attention to how other players behave, where they place their priorities, and how they will relentlessly try to circumvent, game or otherwise abuse the systems in place. He just continues to naively assume people will totally behave as he expects them to... and he's wrong every time.

    This also demonstrates a long-standing criticism people have had of him.. he sucks at incentivizing content. He has no idea how to get people interested and engaged in content, except for turning it into a compulsory grind to get the next tier of shinies. He takes ideas with incredible potential, and somehow consistently manages to make them underwhelming, to the point where people groan about *having* to do them, instead of being excited *about* doing them.

    He's demonstrated this obliviousness in other areas of the game as well, such as Housing - something he *still* hasn't learned, even after screw-up after screw-up in that area.
    Post edited by QuarterStack on
  • GhavriggGhavrigg Member RarePosts: 1,308
    edited July 2017
    I don't necessarily mind the winning/losing exp ratio being the same (I know it's not now, just saying). You still gotta win games if you wanna get achievements, challenge log, more wolf marks, etc.

    But if people were using this as a quick leveling tool and weren't even trying to win, then of course I'm glad for the changes made. I've only been in 5-10 Frontline matches since SB launch. A lot of people do seem pretty useless when looking at the score sheet at the end, but I just assumed it was because they didn't quite understand how it all worked or something. lol
  • StellaBellaStellaBella Member UncommonPosts: 32
    So you AFK for a extra 50 games, does it really matter when you are AFK watching TV or sunning in your backyard? If anything the change would make me want to AFK in the game.
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