I agree with this guy a lot. I also have to say I don't see modern MMO's as a decline, just a different a type of MMO's. I've tried going back to some old MMO's from time to time and it feels like, been there, done that, time to move on. But some of the memories and experiences I've had when I played the old ones were truly epic and I will remember with enjoyment forever.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
First let me start by saying I do not think they are in decline. I think quality and quantity have both increased in every way since EQ1. What has happened though is they have changed.
MMO's and what they offer is simply a reflection of society and what it wants. When I started with EQ and and DAOC, I knew the people in my guild. I knew their names, their spouse, the phone number. We would stand in whatever zone and talk for hours. I did not mind waiting 10-20 minutes on a shuttle or a boat. I loved the downtime. I loved the corpse runs, the harder to level aspect, group needed, waking up at 3am to raid Emain and hoping you took it before reinforcements arrived.
But this began to change because society changed and Blizzard capitalized on this with WOW. Society stopped being "stop and smell the roses" and became the "now, now, now". People had little patience or felt their time was so precious they had to be doing something. A lot of this was the new generation introduced to MMO's with WOW and later more approachable ones.
At the same time, my generation (I am 41 and a xennial) got older. We left college and our 20s and began to marry and have a family. I went from gaming binges of 12-24 hours to being lucky I have 3 hours. Most nights I have 2 hours max to game and maybe 3 nights a week. If I spent it like I did in DAOC, I would have to leave a group 10 minutes after we got to our camping spot! No, I am more solo, more "grab the quest and let's go" mentality because that is the only way I can play now. For the record, I play ESO and GW2 mainly.
So you have an influx of the new generation with a more immediate gratification needs (Why does Prime take 2 days? OMG!) and the old folks (Get off my lawn!) playing the same games. Different reasons, same results. So games change, and adapt and change.
I am not here to debate the merits of this or the good and bad. Some see it as a decline and others don't. And that's fine. But it is what it is. So do not blame the game, do not blame the developers, all we really have to blame is the changes we see is society as a whole reflected on our gaming.
PS - Not everyone in the younger gens is about immediate gratification nor does everyone in the older gen want you to get off their lawn; I am mainly characterizing the groups as a whole - exceptions do exist.
Perhaps you are new to the Internet. People talk in generalities and their own opinions which might be based on experience. So when someone said the generation is about immediate gratification you would have to be a moron to think that means everyone. Same goes for saying not everyone in the younger 'gens' is about immediate gratification. So it is a generalization and it might be wrong however, if we don't do generalization that means we have to talk about specific people by name or reference which won't fly.
I think people are about immediate gratification. You see it different, so what, doesn't change my mind. What sucks is people like you defending it but we don't see you "correcting" your fellows who just might be part of the instant gratification crowd. Which makes me feel like you support it or at the very least ok with it.
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what
it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience
because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in
the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you
playing an MMORPG?"
But this began to change because society changed and Blizzard capitalized on this with WOW. Society stopped being "stop and smell the roses" and became the "now, now, now".
This is a common mistake people do when talking about Old School MMO.
1) Society hasn't changed, you changed. 15 years ago you probably were a Student with no many responsibilities and lots of time in his hand. Now you probably have a family, kids, and a career to take care of. But guess what, today there are still Students or young people with lots of free time in their hands and who like a challenging game, exactly like 15 years ago...but it's just not you though, now it is your son.
2) The "gimme now" players always existed, they just didn't play MMORPGs before WoW. What WoW did is to bring this kind of players to the MMORPG genre.
What I learned from my years in EQ was that it wasn't the game that was great, it was the community...Having a good size guild and several friends to play with made it a great game.... What alot of us lament is that we dont have that community in any game we try now....Almost every MMO in the last 10 years is geared towards the soloer (and yes WoW started that).
This 100% just look at the replies the OP is getting. The community in today's mmo's are crap and that's why non of my gamer friends want to play them anymore. I miss those old days before mmo's went mainstream thanks to Wow. Mmo's had a better class of player's. Mmo's are losing ground with a lot of gamer's but on sites like this you are led to believe this is not true. The only thing keeping them alive is crowdfunding. Big game companies don't want to bother with them anymore. I have a community of gamer friends that i hang out with. They would rather play rpg board games than deal with mmo players anymore.
Well I thought the game itself was pretty great, especially considering it was one of the first MMOs on the market (the first in 3D I think). But the point about community is well-taken. It's amazing how you could fill in the gaps and get through downtime by simply chatting with friends you made in the game. There were times when I would log-on and not be able to find a group for a while and I was still able to pass the time by talking with friends or guild mates.
If Pantheon succeeds in recapturing that sense of community, it will have won a major battle right there.
November 23, 2004 was the begining of the end. Although some may argue January 15, 2007.
WoW was the best MMORPG throughout the BC expansion, it started declining with WOTLK, though this was still a pretty decent expansion (some say the best, but I disagree). It all went tits up with Cataclysm, December 2010 that's when WoW died, IMO.
But to me the end of MMORPGs as we knew it happened in September 18, 2008. That was a sad day, because it started the era of WoW clones.
The beginning of the decline were player modifications and the expectation that things should become standard.
Example 1: 3rd party website created to show players where to go for a quest and the steps required -> players complained that it wasn't "part of the game" and it's bs they have to go to 3rd party websites to obtain this information. Result: [!] icons and map markers telling you where to go.
Example 2: Players using 3rd party websites to create market places, ways to list your items for sale -> players complain they have to go to 3rd party websites in order to list their items for sale. Result: Auction houses.
This list is actually very expansive and I could go on for hours. The point is people become lazy and want the reward and gratification now without having to work for it.
There's always the usual retort, "But you don't have to use map markers, you can turn off x and do it the hard way" but his is 100% bullshit because humans are human, we look for the path of least resistance to reach our goal and that's what we use.
The MMO as we knew them prior to 04-05, declined because the greater player base no longer approached them as a community experience. In turn designs followed suit to facilitate the way they played, making it easier and easier to play alone, and more suited to playing alone (questing).. They also removed most cases of dependencies on others outside of dungeon play. Here we are today with the result of that.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I didn't play EQ but I've played mmorpgs since 2001 starting with AO, then DAOC,WOW,AOC,TSW, and ESO. + a few more inbetween.
The main problem I have with more modern mmorpgs, is that they're not complete. Most common is that the itemization is poor. Simply lack of imagination.
To me it appears that mmorpg devs look at the surface of a mmorpg they try to copy but forget what's deeper down in the system the finer details.
For example dungeon loot, some games back in 2001-2005 had amazing loot on bosses, some loot would be rare. Games tried different strategies. These days you're lucky if a dungeon boss drop loot at all, forget about finding something extra in a dungeon. rare boss? Forget it!, loot on the floor/random place? gimme a break. Secret passage /room? ROFL!
It seems all the work is put into the graphics and the surface.
How many games have put much effort put into crafting? Almost none of the newer games. AOC even discontinued crafting back in 2009, a year or so after launch.
November 23, 2004 was the begining of the end. Although some may argue January 15, 2007.
WoW was the best MMORPG throughout the BC expansion, it started declining with WOTLK, though this was still a pretty decent expansion (some say the best, but I disagree). It all went tits up with Cataclysm, December 2010 that's when WoW died, IMO.
But to me the end of MMORPGs as we knew it happened in September 18, 2008. That was a sad day, because it started the era of WoW clones.
While I think WoW a step backward for mmorpgs in the aspects that matter most, you could already see them heading in the wrong direction in BC. Just the fact that all previous achievements were nullified and the playing field was leveled 5 hours into the expansion was a detriment to the underlying principle and purpose of the persistent world. What's the point of having a persistent world if what you did yesterday no longer matters today?
Then there was the raid cap, which in itself not a huge deal (though I personally think anything less than 35-40 people can hardly be considered a "raid". The real problem came when content meant for raids or that was supposed to be harder was made available for smaller groups (10 mans), and in easier modes. That was where WoW dropped the facade of even trying to be an mmorpg or a virtual world, and just became another game full of gamey convenience systems.
And here we are 10 years later completely inundated with these same poor design decisions which resulted in drastically reduced player retention.
While I think WoW a step backward for mmorpgs in the aspects that matter most, you could already see them heading in the wrong direction in BC. Just the fact that all previous achievements were nullified and the playing field was leveled 5 hours into the expansion was a detriment to the underlying principle and purpose of the persistent world. What's the point of having a persistent world if what you did yesterday no longer matters today?
During BC if you wore Purple Gear from Vanilla you could still kick ass, it was still slightly better than the BC Blue items. In Wotlk the Old Purple was just slightly better than New Green while in Cata the Old Purple gear started to be obsolete from the get go. All the convenient features started to appear during Wotlk. Cata was the finale nail in the coffin for Old School MMOs (including the original WoW concept).
Vanilla WoW and BC was much closer to EQ1 than any other game, even than Vanilla EQ2. The game started to change with Wotlk and completely lost the plot with Cata.
Graphics got better, gameplay got worse. That's what happens when a niche gets popularized. It become less about making a game and more about making money.
MMOs were always about making money.
Not sure why some have a hard time accepting this.
Games made for the sake of gaming wont target masses of players with subscription fees like all gen1 games did.
No one's having a hard time accepting that. You're over-simplifying the point... Or perhaps missing or ignoring it altogether.
A post I'd read a while ago put it perfectly. To paraphrase:
There's a difference between saying: "We want to make a great game, so we need to make enough money" and saying: "We want to make a lot of money, so we have to make a popular game".
1st and 2nd Gen MMOs (maybe some 3rd) followed the former. MMOs to come after WoW have increasingly followed the latter.
In one case, the focus was on creating an engaging and lasting experience in a world that stands apart from anything else on the market, and was only trying to attract people who would enjoy that particular experience.
In the other, it's about following a an increasingly generic formula with minimal deviation to target the largest number of people, by catering to the lowest/largest common denominator.
It boils down to: Is raising money a means to an end (1st/2nd Gen), or is it the end in itself (post-WoW)?
And the trend has been to water them down more and more. Systems that used to account for an entire career path for a player in old school MMOs are barely an after-thought in more recent ones. Now, it's "how do we monetize the hell out of these things so we can maximize our cash shop revenue?". It's barely even about gameplay anymore. It's just about separating the player from as much of their money as possible, through any means possible.
Anyone who's been around since the 1st and 2nd gen, and has played various titles through each generation since then should be able to see how the focus has changed, and the games with them.
No one's having a hard time accepting that. You're over-simplifying the point... Or perhaps missing or ignoring it altogether.
A post I'd read a while ago put it perfectly. To paraphrase:
There's a difference between saying: "We want to make a great game, so we need to make enough money" and saying: "We want to make a lot of money, so we have to make a popular game".
Forgive him. Sometimes @DMKano forget that the MMORPG Industry is not just a normal business but an Entertainment business, and it doesn't always follow normal rules.
In Movies you have the X-Men Series (Manufactured) and the Tarantino movies (Artist). In Music you have One Direction (Manufactured) and Ed Sheeran (Artist). In Games you have FIFA (Manufactured) and The Witcher (Artist). For some reason Kano decided that MMORPGs shouldn't follow the rules of the rest of the Entertainment Business and only Manufactured products are viable.
Both Manufactured products and products made by Artist (people who actually care) can make money, one is based on Marketing (Manufactured) the other on Passion (Artist), different objective, same results.
They have gotten A LOT better - the problem is after 17+ years of MMOs many people have gotten jaded
Imagine taking ESO, BDO, GW2, AA - pick any game today and transport it magically back in time to 1999 just like it is today (assume PCs could play it the way they can today for the sake of argument).
People would be abso-fucking-lutely floored.
Sure, you are right, but that's not a fair comparison is it? Now magically transport EQ1 with the same mechanics but with today Graphics and Standards and around $50 Million investment like ESO, BDO, GW2, AA, and I can guarantee that this game will have more player retention and longevity than all of those games.
I think you are misinterpreting what people actually want when they ask for an Old School game. When we talk about Old School games I am sure you are thinking something like SotA, but that's not an Old School game, that's just an Old game, not what we want. I don't think anyone is asking for that kind of stuff.
Most original EQ players have lamented the path MMOs have taken the past 15 years.
I'm in the opposite camp, I think they've gotten better.
They have gotten A LOT better - the problem is after 17+ years of MMOs many people have gotten jaded
Imagine taking ESO, BDO, GW2, AA - pick any game today and transport it magically back in time to 1999 just like it is today (assume PCs could play it the way they can today for the sake of argument).
People would be abso-fucking-lutely floored.
Yeah and looking into the future from 99 I bet most people, well myself anyway, would be floored by the cash shops more than anything else.
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
They have gotten A LOT better - the problem is after 17+ years of MMOs many people have gotten jaded
Imagine taking ESO, BDO, GW2, AA - pick any game today and transport it magically back in time to 1999 just like it is today (assume PCs could play it the way they can today for the sake of argument).
People would be abso-fucking-lutely floored.
That's pretty true, and I don't think you need to go that far back. Think back around 2007-2008 when the MMO genre had a huge gap in quality games. People had high hopes for Vanguard and Warhammer Online, both flopped and both are non-existent today. If ESO, GW2, BDO, FFXIV, etc.. were to release in 2007, people would've hailed it as a second golden age of MMO's.
And if you were to take the same MMO's and launch them in 2004, they would've given WoW a run for its money, and utterly destroyed population in EQ2...what little was left in it anyway.
Taking those games even back further to the age of the big original 4, EQ, UO, DAOC, and AC1, yes, people would've been floored by ESO, GW2, BDO, FFXIV, etc.. You would have Giorgio A. Tsoukalos saying aliens built those games on TV.
Played: EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-LOTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO-BDO Waiting For: CU & Vanilla WoW
Taking those games even back further to the age of the big original 4, EQ, UO, DAOC, and AC1, yes, people would've been floored by ESO, GW2, BDO, FFXIV, etc.. You would have Giorgio A. Tsoukalos saying aliens built those games on TV.
Graphics got better, gameplay got worse. That's what happens when a niche gets popularized. It become less about making a game and more about making money.
MMOs were always about making money.
Not sure why some have a hard time accepting this.
Games made for the sake of gaming wont target masses of players with subscription fees like all gen1 games did.
No one's having a hard time accepting that. You're over-simplifying the point... Or perhaps missing or ignoring it altogether.
A post I'd read a while ago put it perfectly. To paraphrase:
There's a difference between saying: "We want to make a great game, so we need to make enough money" and saying: "We want to make a lot of money, so we have to make a popular game".
1st and 2nd Gen MMOs (maybe some 3rd) followed the former. MMOs to come after WoW have increasingly followed the latter.
In one case, the focus was on creating an engaging and lasting experience in a world that stands apart from anything else on the market, and was only trying to attract people who would enjoy that particular experience.
In the other, it's about following a an increasingly generic formula with minimal deviation to target the largest number of people, by catering to the lowest/largest common denominator.
It boils down to: Is raising money a means to an end (1st/2nd Gen), or is it the end in itself (post-WoW)?
And the trend has been to water them down more and more. Systems that used to account for an entire career path for a player in old school MMOs are barely an after-thought in more recent ones. Now, it's "how do we monetize the hell out of these things so we can maximize our cash shop revenue?". It's barely even about gameplay anymore. It's just about separating the player from as much of their money as possible, through any means possible.
Anyone who's been around since the 1st and 2nd gen, and has played various titles through each generation since then should be able to see how the focus has changed, and the games with them.
You are living in a fairytale world where gen1 MMORPGs were not focused on making a lot of money first.
I'll give you a big hint - game developers talking to media filter about 95% of what they really want to say, talk to them as an insider and off the record - the money was KEY in why they chose to go for massive online market, and not just make a multiplayer RPG.
The difference between focusing on "game" vs "money" is something players completely made up because it makes for a nicer story - but that's not reality.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Developers that focus on MMOs do it for massive money making potential - this was true back in 1997, it is true today.
Of course you still need to make a damn good product to sell well - but the money making potential WAS the key driver, not making a cool game.
Any product that is targeting millions of consumers is squarely focused on money making potential.
This is actually false. Doing even a little research into the industry pre-WoW, there was very little expectation of games being hugely successful. They were actually quite risky.
@quarterstack had it right. The risk takers did it because they wanted to create massive fantasy worlds that people could explore and conquer cooperatively. There was no reason for them to believe that MMOs before EQ had massive money-making potential. They'd have been better off manufacturing another coop or single player game for a high probability of return on investment.
Graphics got better, gameplay got worse. That's what happens when a niche gets popularized. It become less about making a game and more about making money.
MMOs were always about making money.
Not sure why some have a hard time accepting this.
Games made for the sake of gaming wont target masses of players with subscription fees like all gen1 games did.
No one's having a hard time accepting that. You're over-simplifying the point... Or perhaps missing or ignoring it altogether.
A post I'd read a while ago put it perfectly. To paraphrase:
There's a difference between saying: "We want to make a great game, so we need to make enough money" and saying: "We want to make a lot of money, so we have to make a popular game".
1st and 2nd Gen MMOs (maybe some 3rd) followed the former. MMOs to come after WoW have increasingly followed the latter.
In one case, the focus was on creating an engaging and lasting experience in a world that stands apart from anything else on the market, and was only trying to attract people who would enjoy that particular experience.
In the other, it's about following a an increasingly generic formula with minimal deviation to target the largest number of people, by catering to the lowest/largest common denominator.
It boils down to: Is raising money a means to an end (1st/2nd Gen), or is it the end in itself (post-WoW)?
And the trend has been to water them down more and more. Systems that used to account for an entire career path for a player in old school MMOs are barely an after-thought in more recent ones. Now, it's "how do we monetize the hell out of these things so we can maximize our cash shop revenue?". It's barely even about gameplay anymore. It's just about separating the player from as much of their money as possible, through any means possible.
Anyone who's been around since the 1st and 2nd gen, and has played various titles through each generation since then should be able to see how the focus has changed, and the games with them.
You are living in a fairytale world where gen1 MMORPGs were not focused on making a lot of money first.
I'll give you a big hint - game developers talking to media filter about 95% of what they really want to say, talk to them as an insider and off the record - the money was KEY in why they chose to go for massive online market, and not just make a multiplayer RPG.
The difference between focusing on "game" vs "money" is something players completely made up because it makes for a nicer story - but that's not reality.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Developers that focus on MMOs do it for massive money making potential - this was true back in 1997, it is true today.
Of course you still need to make a damn good product to sell well - but the money making potential WAS the key driver, not making a cool game.
Any product that is targeting millions of consumers is squarely focused on money making potential.
This is actually false. Doing even a little research into the industry pre-WoW, there was very little expectation of games being hugely successful. They were actually quite risky.
@quarterstack had it right. The risk takers did it because they wanted to create massive fantasy worlds that people could explore and conquer cooperatively. There was no reason for them to believe that MMOs before EQ had massive money-making potential. They'd have been better off manufacturing another coop or single player game for a high probability of return on investment.
If it was a path only the followers of love took, why did Blizzard choose to do it? Especially with that kind of a budget. Then Blizzard was the master risker.
Or maybe everyone were following the money, but Blizzard has just the budget for making it big?
Not being sarcastic, but that sounds closer to reality in my head.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Graphics got better, gameplay got worse. That's what happens when a niche gets popularized. It become less about making a game and more about making money.
MMOs were always about making money.
Not sure why some have a hard time accepting this.
Games made for the sake of gaming wont target masses of players with subscription fees like all gen1 games did.
No one's having a hard time accepting that. You're over-simplifying the point... Or perhaps missing or ignoring it altogether.
A post I'd read a while ago put it perfectly. To paraphrase:
There's a difference between saying: "We want to make a great game, so we need to make enough money" and saying: "We want to make a lot of money, so we have to make a popular game".
1st and 2nd Gen MMOs (maybe some 3rd) followed the former. MMOs to come after WoW have increasingly followed the latter.
In one case, the focus was on creating an engaging and lasting experience in a world that stands apart from anything else on the market, and was only trying to attract people who would enjoy that particular experience.
In the other, it's about following a an increasingly generic formula with minimal deviation to target the largest number of people, by catering to the lowest/largest common denominator.
It boils down to: Is raising money a means to an end (1st/2nd Gen), or is it the end in itself (post-WoW)?
And the trend has been to water them down more and more. Systems that used to account for an entire career path for a player in old school MMOs are barely an after-thought in more recent ones. Now, it's "how do we monetize the hell out of these things so we can maximize our cash shop revenue?". It's barely even about gameplay anymore. It's just about separating the player from as much of their money as possible, through any means possible.
Anyone who's been around since the 1st and 2nd gen, and has played various titles through each generation since then should be able to see how the focus has changed, and the games with them.
You are living in a fairytale world where gen1 MMORPGs were not focused on making a lot of money first.
I'll give you a big hint - game developers talking to media filter about 95% of what they really want to say, talk to them as an insider and off the record - the money was KEY in why they chose to go for massive online market, and not just make a multiplayer RPG.
The difference between focusing on "game" vs "money" is something players completely made up because it makes for a nicer story - but that's not reality.
Sorry to burst your bubble.
Developers that focus on MMOs do it for massive money making potential - this was true back in 1997, it is true today.
Of course you still need to make a damn good product to sell well - but the money making potential WAS the key driver, not making a cool game.
Any product that is targeting millions of consumers is squarely focused on money making potential.
This is actually false. Doing even a little research into the industry pre-WoW, there was very little expectation of games being hugely successful. They were actually quite risky.
@quarterstack had it right. The risk takers did it because they wanted to create massive fantasy worlds that people could explore and conquer cooperatively. There was no reason for them to believe that MMOs before EQ had massive money-making potential. They'd have been better off manufacturing another coop or single player game for a high probability of return on investment.
If it was all about the money why didn't EQ have a cash shop in 99? Why didn't WoW have a cash shop in 2004?
"You CAN'T buy ships for RL money." - MaxBacon
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Comments
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Some players just haven't figured it out yet.
~~ postlarval ~~
Perhaps you are new to the Internet. People talk in generalities and their own opinions which might be based on experience. So when someone said the generation is about immediate gratification you would have to be a moron to think that means everyone. Same goes for saying not everyone in the younger 'gens' is about immediate gratification. So it is a generalization and it might be wrong however, if we don't do generalization that means we have to talk about specific people by name or reference which won't fly.
I think people are about immediate gratification. You see it different, so what, doesn't change my mind. What sucks is people like you defending it but we don't see you "correcting" your fellows who just might be part of the instant gratification crowd. Which makes me feel like you support it or at the very least ok with it.
Epic Music: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1
https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1
Kyleran: "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."
John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."
FreddyNoNose: "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."
LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"
1) Society hasn't changed, you changed.
15 years ago you probably were a Student with no many responsibilities and lots of time in his hand.
Now you probably have a family, kids, and a career to take care of.
But guess what, today there are still Students or young people with lots of free time in their hands and who like a challenging game, exactly like 15 years ago...but it's just not you though, now it is your son.
2) The "gimme now" players always existed, they just didn't play MMORPGs before WoW.
What WoW did is to bring this kind of players to the MMORPG genre.
Well I thought the game itself was pretty great, especially considering it was one of the first MMOs on the market (the first in 3D I think). But the point about community is well-taken. It's amazing how you could fill in the gaps and get through downtime by simply chatting with friends you made in the game. There were times when I would log-on and not be able to find a group for a while and I was still able to pass the time by talking with friends or guild mates.
If Pantheon succeeds in recapturing that sense of community, it will have won a major battle right there.
This isn't a signature, you just think it is.
It all went tits up with Cataclysm, December 2010 that's when WoW died, IMO.
But to me the end of MMORPGs as we knew it happened in September 18, 2008.
That was a sad day, because it started the era of WoW clones.
Example 1: 3rd party website created to show players where to go for a quest and the steps required -> players complained that it wasn't "part of the game" and it's bs they have to go to 3rd party websites to obtain this information. Result: [!] icons and map markers telling you where to go.
Example 2: Players using 3rd party websites to create market places, ways to list your items for sale -> players complain they have to go to 3rd party websites in order to list their items for sale. Result: Auction houses.
This list is actually very expansive and I could go on for hours. The point is people become lazy and want the reward and gratification now without having to work for it.
There's always the usual retort, "But you don't have to use map markers, you can turn off x and do it the hard way" but his is 100% bullshit because humans are human, we look for the path of least resistance to reach our goal and that's what we use.
Facebook and cellphones are the real MMO killers.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The main problem I have with more modern mmorpgs, is that they're not complete. Most common is that the itemization is poor. Simply lack of imagination.
To me it appears that mmorpg devs look at the surface of a mmorpg they try to copy but forget what's deeper down in the system the finer details.
For example dungeon loot, some games back in 2001-2005 had amazing loot on bosses, some loot would be rare. Games tried different strategies. These days you're lucky if a dungeon boss drop loot at all, forget about finding something extra in a dungeon. rare boss? Forget it!, loot on the floor/random place? gimme a break. Secret passage /room? ROFL!
It seems all the work is put into the graphics and the surface.
How many games have put much effort put into crafting? Almost none of the newer games. AOC even discontinued crafting back in 2009, a year or so after launch.
Then there was the raid cap, which in itself not a huge deal (though I personally think anything less than 35-40 people can hardly be considered a "raid". The real problem came when content meant for raids or that was supposed to be harder was made available for smaller groups (10 mans), and in easier modes. That was where WoW dropped the facade of even trying to be an mmorpg or a virtual world, and just became another game full of gamey convenience systems.
And here we are 10 years later completely inundated with these same poor design decisions which resulted in drastically reduced player retention.
During BC if you wore Purple Gear from Vanilla you could still kick ass, it was still slightly better than the BC Blue items.
In Wotlk the Old Purple was just slightly better than New Green while in Cata the Old Purple gear started to be obsolete from the get go.
All the convenient features started to appear during Wotlk.
Cata was the finale nail in the coffin for Old School MMOs (including the original WoW concept).
Vanilla WoW and BC was much closer to EQ1 than any other game, even than Vanilla EQ2.
The game started to change with Wotlk and completely lost the plot with Cata.
Joined - July 2004
A post I'd read a while ago put it perfectly. To paraphrase:
There's a difference between saying:
"We want to make a great game, so we need to make enough money"
and saying:
"We want to make a lot of money, so we have to make a popular game".
1st and 2nd Gen MMOs (maybe some 3rd) followed the former. MMOs to come after WoW have increasingly followed the latter.
In one case, the focus was on creating an engaging and lasting experience in a world that stands apart from anything else on the market, and was only trying to attract people who would enjoy that particular experience.
In the other, it's about following a an increasingly generic formula with minimal deviation to target the largest number of people, by catering to the lowest/largest common denominator.
It boils down to: Is raising money a means to an end (1st/2nd Gen), or is it the end in itself (post-WoW)?
And the trend has been to water them down more and more. Systems that used to account for an entire career path for a player in old school MMOs are barely an after-thought in more recent ones. Now, it's "how do we monetize the hell out of these things so we can maximize our cash shop revenue?". It's barely even about gameplay anymore. It's just about separating the player from as much of their money as possible, through any means possible.
Anyone who's been around since the 1st and 2nd gen, and has played various titles through each generation since then should be able to see how the focus has changed, and the games with them.
Sometimes @DMKano forget that the MMORPG Industry is not just a normal business but an Entertainment business, and it doesn't always follow normal rules.
In Movies you have the X-Men Series (Manufactured) and the Tarantino movies (Artist).
In Music you have One Direction (Manufactured) and Ed Sheeran (Artist).
In Games you have FIFA (Manufactured) and The Witcher (Artist).
For some reason Kano decided that MMORPGs shouldn't follow the rules of the rest of the Entertainment Business and only Manufactured products are viable.
Both Manufactured products and products made by Artist (people who actually care) can make money, one is based on Marketing (Manufactured) the other on Passion (Artist), different objective, same results.
Now magically transport EQ1 with the same mechanics but with today Graphics and Standards and around $50 Million investment like ESO, BDO, GW2, AA, and I can guarantee that this game will have more player retention and longevity than all of those games.
I think you are misinterpreting what people actually want when they ask for an Old School game.
When we talk about Old School games I am sure you are thinking something like SotA, but that's not an Old School game, that's just an Old game, not what we want.
I don't think anyone is asking for that kind of stuff.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/And if you were to take the same MMO's and launch them in 2004, they would've given WoW a run for its money, and utterly destroyed population in EQ2...what little was left in it anyway.
Taking those games even back further to the age of the big original 4, EQ, UO, DAOC, and AC1, yes, people would've been floored by ESO, GW2, BDO, FFXIV, etc.. You would have Giorgio A. Tsoukalos saying aliens built those games on TV.
Played: EQ1-AC1-DAOC-FFXI-L2-EQ2-WoW-LOTR-VG-WAR-GW2-ESO-BDO
Waiting For: CU & Vanilla WoW
@quarterstack had it right. The risk takers did it because they wanted to create massive fantasy worlds that people could explore and conquer cooperatively. There was no reason for them to believe that MMOs before EQ had massive money-making potential. They'd have been better off manufacturing another coop or single player game for a high probability of return on investment.
Or maybe everyone were following the money, but Blizzard has just the budget for making it big?
Not being sarcastic, but that sounds closer to reality in my head.
"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/