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Random Generated Map

nerovergilnerovergil Member UncommonPosts: 680
http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/world/

That just one of the example, its not new idea. Some game already have this, i forgot what game...but mmorpg if im not mistaken..

one thing about rpg game is exploring... its fun if the game engine can create new map each new gameplay...every new game will have a fresh experience

dont get me wrong, game developer can create their own theme park, but they cant cover everything. Just look at the elder scroll series, places like valenwood, elsweyr, heck even skyrim can get bigger right? random map generator can help this...

with random map generator, they can create a random city, desert, sea, some place has humans, some place has monsters and oasis....exploring will be very fun...
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  • InebriatedSkunkInebriatedSkunk Member UncommonPosts: 59
    I'm actually in the planning phase of designing a MMO with a procedural world. My plan is to have it generated as it get's further discovered (akin to Minecraft) and players with cartography skills can create maps and have custom names for landmarks (So a cartographer maps a mountain range and will get to name it for other players to see (clean names of course))
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/world/

    That just one of the example, its not new idea. Some game already have this, i forgot what game...but mmorpg if im not mistaken..

    one thing about rpg game is exploring... its fun if the game engine can create new map each new gameplay...every new game will have a fresh experience

    dont get me wrong, game developer can create their own theme park, but they cant cover everything. Just look at the elder scroll series, places like valenwood, elsweyr, heck even skyrim can get bigger right? random map generator can help this...

    with random map generator, they can create a random city, desert, sea, some place has humans, some place has monsters and oasis....exploring will be very fun...

    For me, it  has never been a question about random generation.  Heck the Judges Guild Ready Ref sheets covered that 40 years ago.  It is about the quality of the results.  Handcrafted > current random generation.


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  • dougha1dougha1 Member UncommonPosts: 152
    edited July 2017
    Procedurally generated content has always fascinated me from a programming point of view. Earliest game I can recall that did that was Moria. everyone knows about the huge random dungeons in Daggerfall.  :)  I particularly like how the procedural generation was done in Frontier Elite 2.  Man, I played that game for years on my old Amiga. :)

    Anyway, I could certainly see it being usable in MMOs for instanced areas.

    One-time generation for the creation of global (non-instanced) maps, followed by saving and tweaking by the developers, would speed up development time.


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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,566
    dougha1 said:
    Procedurally generated content has always fascinated me from a programming point of view. Earliest game I can recall that did that was Moria. everyone knows about the huge random dungeons in Daggerfall.  :)  I particularly like how the procedural generation was done in Frontier Elite 2.  Man, I played that game for years on my old Amiga. :)

    Anyway, I could certainly see it being usable in MMOs for instanced areas.

    One-time generation for the creation of global (non-instanced) maps, followed by saving and tweaking by the developers, would speed up development time.


    Interesting you brought up Daggerfall, was my first experience with procedurally generated content and I came to loath the concept.

    My focus in games is mostly on progression and completion and coming to an end.

    Much as I despise rerunning dungeons, as they never complete, procedurally generated content seems largely pointless which gives me no real sense of accomplishment.

    I'd much rather have a single, massive dungeon that was brutally difficult to complete which would permit everyone to compare their progress against each other.

    Far better than saying we completed 5 random dungeons this week while another group completed 5 different ones with no basis of comparison.


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  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,311
    The problem is when you want a world that is immersive.if  it comes off as a simple random generator,it no longer feels like a living world,just a computer program.
    I want everything in a game world to have a permanent identity ,that means no scaling either.

    One of the biggest flaws in game design right now is too many looks like computer code rather than feeling like your in a living world.I also do not like instancing,yes it can be ok if done right and not over done but again,instancing is being abused as well.

    it is very tough to hope for a triple A game when so many games have so many flaws in design,sure if i just want some big square box with land textures and a sky box and some npcs jotted down to kill i might be satisfied but i can do that myself,i want a really good complete rpg game that needs a team to design.

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    random generation works rather well in 7 days to die and yes it feels living and yes it could translate to an MMO and yes they have had problem but it appears to be fixing them rather well and yes its interactive and diverse and yes its compelling and no a hand crafted world could not be made a ton better but hand crafted would be better but it would take a lot more work which translates to money

    I think that is 100% converage of responses

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  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,786
    The problem is that there is one group of players that feel the random gen games feel immersive enough while another group feels it is not. Random gen works in certain games for certain players. There is no solution for all players. You either like it or don't.
    Kyleranwaynejr2Hatefull

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    The problem is that there is one group of players that feel the random gen games feel immersive enough while another group feels it is not. Random gen works in certain games for certain players. There is no solution for all players. You either like it or don't.
    random gen in some games are getting so good that I feel rather confident that if you didnt tell those players that it was random gen that they wouldnt even know.

    many people say they dont like or do like things rather in an abstract sense without putting a lot of thought into it...not exactly what I am trying to say but I can use an example: 'when asked what do people use the computer for the most back in the 90s Microsoft was told 'Excel and Word etc' however the reality was porn and video games and they know this from data collection'

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

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  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,177
    http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/world/

    That just one of the example, its not new idea. Some game already have this, i forgot what game...but mmorpg if im not mistaken..

    one thing about rpg game is exploring... its fun if the game engine can create new map each new gameplay...every new game will have a fresh experience

    dont get me wrong, game developer can create their own theme park, but they cant cover everything. Just look at the elder scroll series, places like valenwood, elsweyr, heck even skyrim can get bigger right? random map generator can help this...

    with random map generator, they can create a random city, desert, sea, some place has humans, some place has monsters and oasis....exploring will be very fun...
    While random content generation is generally a good idea, random generation simply doesn't produce the same quality as a human can.  Writing is a large part of an engrossing setting in RPGs and MMORPGs -- legends, character descriptions, dialog and the like.  Just plopping out a series of landscape features, ala Rogue or Diablo, doesn't always make an interesting set of challenges.

    The problem is that landscape features can be generated with a simply procedural algorithm.  That doesn't make it interesting.  Stories need characters and characters need plots in order to capture an audience's attention.  So far, computers can't manipulate language well enough to generate quality content (building the characters and plots) without human intervention and review.  The few techniques that can do this are academic exercises, operating within strict parameters and specialized guidelines.  There hasn't been a movement to transfer these "clean room" algorithms to a "dirty" environment like games.

    Exploration is only one aspect of a game.  It is satisfying to only people who are fascinated by uncovering the 'fog of war' representing the unknown.  A good random generator might place an oasis in middle of a desert and populate it with mermen, but there's no 'story' behind 'why' these mermen got there.  They're just mobs to be killed.   As long as that is the limit of your definition of an RPG, it can work.  But when someone wants to know why they're here or what they want, the random approach simply falls on itself, as it only meets one aspect of a story.

    Maybe in a hundred years, but not anytime soon.

    KyleranHatefull

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Mendel said:
    http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/world/

    That just one of the example, its not new idea. Some game already have this, i forgot what game...but mmorpg if im not mistaken..

    one thing about rpg game is exploring... its fun if the game engine can create new map each new gameplay...every new game will have a fresh experience

    dont get me wrong, game developer can create their own theme park, but they cant cover everything. Just look at the elder scroll series, places like valenwood, elsweyr, heck even skyrim can get bigger right? random map generator can help this...

    with random map generator, they can create a random city, desert, sea, some place has humans, some place has monsters and oasis....exploring will be very fun...
    While random content generation is generally a good idea, random generation simply doesn't produce the same quality as a human can.  Writing is a large part of an engrossing setting in RPGs and MMORPGs -- legends, character descriptions, dialog and the like.  Just plopping out a series of landscape features, ala Rogue or Diablo, doesn't always make an interesting set of challenges.

    The problem is that landscape features can be generated with a simply procedural algorithm.  That doesn't make it interesting.  Stories need characters and characters need plots in order to capture an audience's attention.  So far, computers can't manipulate language well enough to generate quality content (building the characters and plots) without human intervention and review.  The few techniques that can do this are academic exercises, operating within strict parameters and specialized guidelines.  There hasn't been a movement to transfer these "clean room" algorithms to a "dirty" environment like games.

    Exploration is only one aspect of a game.  It is satisfying to only people who are fascinated by uncovering the 'fog of war' representing the unknown.  A good random generator might place an oasis in middle of a desert and populate it with mermen, but there's no 'story' behind 'why' these mermen got there.  They're just mobs to be killed.   As long as that is the limit of your definition of an RPG, it can work.  But when someone wants to know why they're here or what they want, the random approach simply falls on itself, as it only meets one aspect of a story.

    Maybe in a hundred years, but not anytime soon.

    I think it also matters the type of player.

    case in point, when I played MMOs I never read the quest story, didnt care or want to and its not because it was bad I just didnt want to spend my play time doing that. So if a player doesnt care about story (And there are a lot more players like that then people think) then random gen is very useful tool.

    Interesting note about 7 days to die. By FAR most players play the random gen maps and not the hand crafted maps.

    The random gen in 7 days to die is compelling and fun and yes I am sure you can find some fails and I am sure someone will post them just to be a dick but in general it works really well
    Hatefull

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  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,177
    SEANMCAD said:
    Mendel said:
    http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/world/

    That just one of the example, its not new idea. Some game already have this, i forgot what game...but mmorpg if im not mistaken..

    one thing about rpg game is exploring... its fun if the game engine can create new map each new gameplay...every new game will have a fresh experience

    dont get me wrong, game developer can create their own theme park, but they cant cover everything. Just look at the elder scroll series, places like valenwood, elsweyr, heck even skyrim can get bigger right? random map generator can help this...

    with random map generator, they can create a random city, desert, sea, some place has humans, some place has monsters and oasis....exploring will be very fun...
    While random content generation is generally a good idea, random generation simply doesn't produce the same quality as a human can.  Writing is a large part of an engrossing setting in RPGs and MMORPGs -- legends, character descriptions, dialog and the like.  Just plopping out a series of landscape features, ala Rogue or Diablo, doesn't always make an interesting set of challenges.

    The problem is that landscape features can be generated with a simply procedural algorithm.  That doesn't make it interesting.  Stories need characters and characters need plots in order to capture an audience's attention.  So far, computers can't manipulate language well enough to generate quality content (building the characters and plots) without human intervention and review.  The few techniques that can do this are academic exercises, operating within strict parameters and specialized guidelines.  There hasn't been a movement to transfer these "clean room" algorithms to a "dirty" environment like games.

    Exploration is only one aspect of a game.  It is satisfying to only people who are fascinated by uncovering the 'fog of war' representing the unknown.  A good random generator might place an oasis in middle of a desert and populate it with mermen, but there's no 'story' behind 'why' these mermen got there.  They're just mobs to be killed.   As long as that is the limit of your definition of an RPG, it can work.  But when someone wants to know why they're here or what they want, the random approach simply falls on itself, as it only meets one aspect of a story.

    Maybe in a hundred years, but not anytime soon.

    I think it also matters the type of player.

    case in point, when I played MMOs I never read the quest story, didnt care or want to and its not because it was bad I just didnt want to spend my play time doing that. So if a player doesnt care about story (And there are a lot more players like that then people think) then random gen is very useful tool.

    Interesting note about 7 days to die. By FAR most players play the random gen maps and not the hand crafted maps.

    The random gen in 7 days to die is compelling and fun and yes I am sure you can find some fails and I am sure someone will post them just to be a dick but in general it works really well
    When the story stops mattering, is it still an RPG?

    I love playing some games with Rogue-like generation features (Darkest Dungeon, for instance).  They aren't games I look at for my RPG fix.  For that, I need a story.

    Consider me a different type of player, then.

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    Mendel said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Mendel said:
    http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/world/

    That just one of the example, its not new idea. Some game already have this, i forgot what game...but mmorpg if im not mistaken..

    one thing about rpg game is exploring... its fun if the game engine can create new map each new gameplay...every new game will have a fresh experience

    dont get me wrong, game developer can create their own theme park, but they cant cover everything. Just look at the elder scroll series, places like valenwood, elsweyr, heck even skyrim can get bigger right? random map generator can help this...

    with random map generator, they can create a random city, desert, sea, some place has humans, some place has monsters and oasis....exploring will be very fun...
    While random content generation is generally a good idea, random generation simply doesn't produce the same quality as a human can.  Writing is a large part of an engrossing setting in RPGs and MMORPGs -- legends, character descriptions, dialog and the like.  Just plopping out a series of landscape features, ala Rogue or Diablo, doesn't always make an interesting set of challenges.

    The problem is that landscape features can be generated with a simply procedural algorithm.  That doesn't make it interesting.  Stories need characters and characters need plots in order to capture an audience's attention.  So far, computers can't manipulate language well enough to generate quality content (building the characters and plots) without human intervention and review.  The few techniques that can do this are academic exercises, operating within strict parameters and specialized guidelines.  There hasn't been a movement to transfer these "clean room" algorithms to a "dirty" environment like games.

    Exploration is only one aspect of a game.  It is satisfying to only people who are fascinated by uncovering the 'fog of war' representing the unknown.  A good random generator might place an oasis in middle of a desert and populate it with mermen, but there's no 'story' behind 'why' these mermen got there.  They're just mobs to be killed.   As long as that is the limit of your definition of an RPG, it can work.  But when someone wants to know why they're here or what they want, the random approach simply falls on itself, as it only meets one aspect of a story.

    Maybe in a hundred years, but not anytime soon.

    I think it also matters the type of player.

    case in point, when I played MMOs I never read the quest story, didnt care or want to and its not because it was bad I just didnt want to spend my play time doing that. So if a player doesnt care about story (And there are a lot more players like that then people think) then random gen is very useful tool.

    Interesting note about 7 days to die. By FAR most players play the random gen maps and not the hand crafted maps.

    The random gen in 7 days to die is compelling and fun and yes I am sure you can find some fails and I am sure someone will post them just to be a dick but in general it works really well
    When the story stops mattering, is it still an RPG?

    I love playing some games with Rogue-like generation features (Darkest Dungeon, for instance).  They aren't games I look at for my RPG fix.  For that, I need a story.

    Consider me a different type of player, then.
    I dont think it matters what its called either way.

    I think what the play style I described and for the games I alluded to is common place regardless of if said players are committing an offense by playing a game not as its properly described.

    in other words, doesnt matter...people still ignore the story. Not saying all, but many if not most.
    regardless of game named style or intent.

    so would random gen work in all games? clearly not and clearly people should not assume so. clearly (and should go without explaination) a story rich game (which is the exception not the rule) would not work with random gen. but others would

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,566
    The problem is that there is one group of players that feel the random gen games feel immersive enough while another group feels it is not. Random gen works in certain games for certain players. There is no solution for all players. You either like it or don't.
    Wizardry said:
    The problem is when you want a world that is immersive.if  it comes off as a simple random generator,it no longer feels like a living world,just a computer program.
    I want everything in a game world to have a permanent identity ,that means no scaling either.


    I'd say Wizardry hit the nail on the head, if you are trying to create an immersive virtual world, persistence is a key feature.  This applies to a players character, progression mechanics and actual world itself which the players reside.

    Currently playing the DAOC freeshard, when someone says in Alliance chat, "need a Druid at instant Fins", its a specific location which is always there, and I know exactly what's going on and what to expect when I get there.  

    Far different than if someone were to say, "need a Druid to run a randomly generated dungeon"

    The latter is fine if you are playing "a game,", but not at all good if you are in a virtual world.


    Hatefullcameltosis

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    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    Kyleran said:
    The problem is that there is one group of players that feel the random gen games feel immersive enough while another group feels it is not. Random gen works in certain games for certain players. There is no solution for all players. You either like it or don't.
    Wizardry said:
    The problem is when you want a world that is immersive.if  it comes off as a simple random generator,it no longer feels like a living world,just a computer program.
    I want everything in a game world to have a permanent identity ,that means no scaling either.


    I'd say Wizardry hit the nail on the head, if you are trying to create an immersive virtual world, persistence is a key feature.  This applies to a players character, progression mechanics and actual world itself which the players reside.

    Currently playing the DAOC freeshard, when someone says in Alliance chat, "need a Druid at instant Fins", its a specific location which is always there, and I know exactly what's going on and what to expect when I get there.  

    Far different than if someone were to say, "need a Druid to run a randomly generated dungeon"

    The latter is fine if you are playing "a game,", but not at all good if you are in a virtual world.


    so how it works (in the games I have played).
    The world is generated randomly and once a player has gotten to that area the NPCs that are generated there will ALWAYS be in that location (non roaming NPCs of course, not roaming mobs). If you stop the game and re-start the game the NPCs will STILL be in that location. In fact, (no idea how this part works but it does) if the harddrive is completely wiped and you re-install the game and give it the same seed, that NPC will STILL be in that exact same location.

    In a single player experience you can give your friend the seed name, and cords and he can start a world and that NPC will be in that exact location on his copy as well. this is assuming the seed generation is tied to NPCs which sometimes it is and sometimes it not but the take away is that it can


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  • TamanousTamanous Member RarePosts: 2,993
    edited July 2017
    What works best for mmorpgs is Explicit Proceduralism. Some details here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/44rjzg/procedurally_generated_world_why_cant_we_have_this/

    Several games are using it and likely it will be the standard in the future and perhaps part of the next gen game development engines. The time and man power to build this tech is rather immense but once completed the benefits are incredible savings in time for actual game development.

    The world it generates is highly predefined so calling it random is rather inaccurate. The less defined it is the more manual work will be required to complete the world building. I can see future procedural world generators offering far more than just basic flora, fauna and geologically accurate (as defined) landscapes but also adding complex behavior of mobs and social groups within it.

    The ultimate goal would naturally be to make a world emulator with realistic AI and dynamic events. This is really the goal of making a real mmorpg. The tech and resources needed to make it has mostly been in the hands of those who won't make it ... at least not until profit margins exceed current business models. It may take a pioneer to make it and likely, quickly bought out by big industry soon after.

    You stay sassy!

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,566
    SEANMCAD said:
    Kyleran said:
    The problem is that there is one group of players that feel the random gen games feel immersive enough while another group feels it is not. Random gen works in certain games for certain players. There is no solution for all players. You either like it or don't.
    Wizardry said:
    The problem is when you want a world that is immersive.if  it comes off as a simple random generator,it no longer feels like a living world,just a computer program.
    I want everything in a game world to have a permanent identity ,that means no scaling either.


    I'd say Wizardry hit the nail on the head, if you are trying to create an immersive virtual world, persistence is a key feature.  This applies to a players character, progression mechanics and actual world itself which the players reside.

    Currently playing the DAOC freeshard, when someone says in Alliance chat, "need a Druid at instant Fins", its a specific location which is always there, and I know exactly what's going on and what to expect when I get there.  

    Far different than if someone were to say, "need a Druid to run a randomly generated dungeon"

    The latter is fine if you are playing "a game,", but not at all good if you are in a virtual world.


    so how it works (in the games I have played).
    The world is generated randomly and once a player has gotten to that area the NPCs that are generated there will ALWAYS be in that location (non roaming NPCs of course, not roaming mobs). If you stop the game and re-start the game the NPCs will STILL be in that location. In fact, (no idea how this part works but it does) if the harddrive is completely wiped and you re-install the game and give it the same seed, that NPC will STILL be in that exact same location.

    In a single player experience you can give your friend the seed name, and cords and he can start a world and that NPC will be in that exact location on his copy as well. this is assuming the seed generation is tied to NPCs which sometimes it is and sometimes it not but the take away is that it can


    Interesting concept, only familiar with the procedural dungeons that normally despawn after everyone exits.   Which game do you think does it best?  

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

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    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    Tamanous said:
    What works best for mmorpgs is Explicit Proceduralism. Some details here:

    https://www.reddit.com/r/MMORPG/comments/44rjzg/procedurally_generated_world_why_cant_we_have_this/

    Several games are using it and likely it will be the standard in the future and perhaps part of the next gen game development engines. The time and man power to build this tech is rather immense but once completed the benefits are incredible savings in time for actual game development.

    The world it generates is highly predefined so calling it random is rather inaccurate. The less defined it is the more manual work will be required to complete the world building. I can see future procedural world generators offering far more than just basic flora, fauna and geologically accurate (as defined) landscapes but also adding complex behavior of mobs and social groups within it.

    The ultimate goal would naturally be to make a world emulator with realistic AI and dynamic events. This is really the goal of making a real mmorpg. The tech and resources needed to make it has mostly been in the hands of those who won't make it ... at least not until profit margins exceed current business models. It may take a pioneer to make it and likely, quickly bought out by big industry soon after.
    I think its completely possible too.
    We think of the world and universe as infinite but really there is a finite set of combinations. So in common terms the family relationships and community realtionships and problems one experience locally are very likely to exist to a near unrecognizable similarity elsewhere.

    So yeah...next step in generation is AI and AI interactions etc. exciting stuff to study I would think

    I think intense weather is going to be the next 'thing' in games by the way (side note)
    Tamanous

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    SEANMCAD said:
    The problem is that there is one group of players that feel the random gen games feel immersive enough while another group feels it is not. Random gen works in certain games for certain players. There is no solution for all players. You either like it or don't.
    random gen in some games are getting so good that I feel rather confident that if you didnt tell those players that it was random gen that they wouldnt even know.

    many people say they dont like or do like things rather in an abstract sense without putting a lot of thought into it...not exactly what I am trying to say but I can use an example: 'when asked what do people use the computer for the most back in the 90s Microsoft was told 'Excel and Word etc' however the reality was porn and video games and they know this from data collection'

    Is there are randomly generated plot that goes with that?
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    waynejr2 said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    The problem is that there is one group of players that feel the random gen games feel immersive enough while another group feels it is not. Random gen works in certain games for certain players. There is no solution for all players. You either like it or don't.
    random gen in some games are getting so good that I feel rather confident that if you didnt tell those players that it was random gen that they wouldnt even know.

    many people say they dont like or do like things rather in an abstract sense without putting a lot of thought into it...not exactly what I am trying to say but I can use an example: 'when asked what do people use the computer for the most back in the 90s Microsoft was told 'Excel and Word etc' however the reality was porn and video games and they know this from data collection'

    Is there are randomly generated plot that goes with that?
    as I had mentioned in an early posts I think random gen can work for many game types but not 100% coverage of all types. Story based games I think would not work well. HOWEVER, not only are most games not story based even the ones that are most gamers do not play them for the story. I do have some evidence for those two claims but its not 100%. that said lets not go there. Lets just leave it at RNG will work for many if not most games but not all games

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    SEANMCAD said:
    waynejr2 said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    The problem is that there is one group of players that feel the random gen games feel immersive enough while another group feels it is not. Random gen works in certain games for certain players. There is no solution for all players. You either like it or don't.
    random gen in some games are getting so good that I feel rather confident that if you didnt tell those players that it was random gen that they wouldnt even know.

    many people say they dont like or do like things rather in an abstract sense without putting a lot of thought into it...not exactly what I am trying to say but I can use an example: 'when asked what do people use the computer for the most back in the 90s Microsoft was told 'Excel and Word etc' however the reality was porn and video games and they know this from data collection'

    Is there are randomly generated plot that goes with that?
    as I had mentioned in an early posts I think random gen can work for many game types but not 100% coverage of all types. Story based games I think would not work well. HOWEVER, not only are most games not story based even the ones that are most gamers do not play them for the story. I do have some evidence for those two claims but its not 100%. that said lets not go there. Lets just leave it at RNG will work for many if not most games but not all games

    As I said if it is good enough.  There is good enough for the player but there is also good enough for the game.   Look at the roguelikes or before that telengard which had randomness.  So historically it worked in games.  However, it doesn't sound like it would be up to my expectations for a mmoRPG.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    edited July 2017
    waynejr2 said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    waynejr2 said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    The problem is that there is one group of players that feel the random gen games feel immersive enough while another group feels it is not. Random gen works in certain games for certain players. There is no solution for all players. You either like it or don't.
    random gen in some games are getting so good that I feel rather confident that if you didnt tell those players that it was random gen that they wouldnt even know.

    many people say they dont like or do like things rather in an abstract sense without putting a lot of thought into it...not exactly what I am trying to say but I can use an example: 'when asked what do people use the computer for the most back in the 90s Microsoft was told 'Excel and Word etc' however the reality was porn and video games and they know this from data collection'

    Is there are randomly generated plot that goes with that?
    as I had mentioned in an early posts I think random gen can work for many game types but not 100% coverage of all types. Story based games I think would not work well. HOWEVER, not only are most games not story based even the ones that are most gamers do not play them for the story. I do have some evidence for those two claims but its not 100%. that said lets not go there. Lets just leave it at RNG will work for many if not most games but not all games

    As I said if it is good enough.  There is good enough for the player but there is also good enough for the game.   Look at the roguelikes or before that telengard which had randomness.  So historically it worked in games.  However, it doesn't sound like it would be up to my expectations for a mmoRPG.
    I think we just made full circle.
     again: 'I think random gen is so good now if you didnt tell a player it was random gen they would not even know it' what people say or think they dont like or would not work for them is not always the reality that they are unaware of. many people say they dont like or do like things rather in an abstract sense without putting a lot of thought into it...n

     example: 'when asked what do people use the computer for the most back in the 90s Microsoft was told 'Excel and Word etc' however the reality was porn and video games and they know this from data collection' Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/466433/random-generated-map#8kysP5wefB48XPXy.99 what this means is
    cameltosis

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    SEANMCAD said:
    waynejr2 said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    waynejr2 said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    The problem is that there is one group of players that feel the random gen games feel immersive enough while another group feels it is not. Random gen works in certain games for certain players. There is no solution for all players. You either like it or don't.
    random gen in some games are getting so good that I feel rather confident that if you didnt tell those players that it was random gen that they wouldnt even know.

    many people say they dont like or do like things rather in an abstract sense without putting a lot of thought into it...not exactly what I am trying to say but I can use an example: 'when asked what do people use the computer for the most back in the 90s Microsoft was told 'Excel and Word etc' however the reality was porn and video games and they know this from data collection'

    Is there are randomly generated plot that goes with that?
    as I had mentioned in an early posts I think random gen can work for many game types but not 100% coverage of all types. Story based games I think would not work well. HOWEVER, not only are most games not story based even the ones that are most gamers do not play them for the story. I do have some evidence for those two claims but its not 100%. that said lets not go there. Lets just leave it at RNG will work for many if not most games but not all games

    As I said if it is good enough.  There is good enough for the player but there is also good enough for the game.   Look at the roguelikes or before that telengard which had randomness.  So historically it worked in games.  However, it doesn't sound like it would be up to my expectations for a mmoRPG.
    I think we just made full circle.
     again: 'I think random gen is so good now if you didnt tell a player it was random gen they would not even know it' what people say or think they dont like or would not work for them is not always the reality that they are unaware of. many people say they dont like or do like things rather in an abstract sense without putting a lot of thought into it...n

     example: 'when asked what do people use the computer for the most back in the 90s Microsoft was told 'Excel and Word etc' however the reality was porn and video games and they know this from data collection' Read more at http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/466433/random-generated-map#8kysP5wefB48XPXy.99 what this means is

    Yes, yes, you know it all don't you
    cameltosis
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • EldurianEldurian Member EpicPosts: 2,736
    edited July 2017
    Procedurally generated maps and hand crafted maps are good food different reasons. 

    Hand Crafted Maps = More unique landmarks. 

    Ancient ruins, very interesting natural phenomenons, NPC Settlements. These are all going to have a lot more interesting features and be a lot cooler if someone goes in and takes the time to make sure they are cool.

    Procedurally Generated = More land to explore.

    It's always going to be easier to generate more land faster through procedural generation. A computer can quickly spit out a map that would take human programmers hundreds or thousands of hours to make.

    I think in MMOs hand crafted tends to be more prevalent for one very important reason. The larger the map, the more spread out the players. If you have this absolutely massive map and players spread all across it, your world is going to feel a lot more dead than if it's small enough players are grouped together.

    I do still see the value of procedurally generating huge maps to explore in an MMO. I'm just thinking to make that an effective design, you'd want to have your designers comb over what's made to check for oddities and add a bit of flair here and there. A grand canyon here, ancient ruin there, elven forest city there etc. You would also want to create a good reason that most players would stick to a smaller central region a large part of the time. Have areas that are alive and popping with population even if there is a huge map out there lying empty most of the time. Keep people from feeling like the game is dead.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon Member EpicPosts: 27,771
    dougha1 said:


    One-time generation for the creation of global (non-instanced) maps, followed by saving and tweaking by the developers, would speed up development time.


    I bet it is already done this way.

    You don't think every single piece of rock and every single tree is put in by hand in games like Fallout 4, Skyrim, and so on ... right?
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,144
    Mendel said:
    SEANMCAD said:
    Mendel said:
    http://donjon.bin.sh/fantasy/world/

    That just one of the example, its not new idea. Some game already have this, i forgot what game...but mmorpg if im not mistaken..

    one thing about rpg game is exploring... its fun if the game engine can create new map each new gameplay...every new game will have a fresh experience

    dont get me wrong, game developer can create their own theme park, but they cant cover everything. Just look at the elder scroll series, places like valenwood, elsweyr, heck even skyrim can get bigger right? random map generator can help this...

    with random map generator, they can create a random city, desert, sea, some place has humans, some place has monsters and oasis....exploring will be very fun...
    While random content generation is generally a good idea, random generation simply doesn't produce the same quality as a human can.  Writing is a large part of an engrossing setting in RPGs and MMORPGs -- legends, character descriptions, dialog and the like.  Just plopping out a series of landscape features, ala Rogue or Diablo, doesn't always make an interesting set of challenges.

    The problem is that landscape features can be generated with a simply procedural algorithm.  That doesn't make it interesting.  Stories need characters and characters need plots in order to capture an audience's attention.  So far, computers can't manipulate language well enough to generate quality content (building the characters and plots) without human intervention and review.  The few techniques that can do this are academic exercises, operating within strict parameters and specialized guidelines.  There hasn't been a movement to transfer these "clean room" algorithms to a "dirty" environment like games.

    Exploration is only one aspect of a game.  It is satisfying to only people who are fascinated by uncovering the 'fog of war' representing the unknown.  A good random generator might place an oasis in middle of a desert and populate it with mermen, but there's no 'story' behind 'why' these mermen got there.  They're just mobs to be killed.   As long as that is the limit of your definition of an RPG, it can work.  But when someone wants to know why they're here or what they want, the random approach simply falls on itself, as it only meets one aspect of a story.

    Maybe in a hundred years, but not anytime soon.

    I think it also matters the type of player.

    case in point, when I played MMOs I never read the quest story, didnt care or want to and its not because it was bad I just didnt want to spend my play time doing that. So if a player doesnt care about story (And there are a lot more players like that then people think) then random gen is very useful tool.

    Interesting note about 7 days to die. By FAR most players play the random gen maps and not the hand crafted maps.

    The random gen in 7 days to die is compelling and fun and yes I am sure you can find some fails and I am sure someone will post them just to be a dick but in general it works really well
    When the story stops mattering, is it still an RPG?

    I love playing some games with Rogue-like generation features (Darkest Dungeon, for instance).  They aren't games I look at for my RPG fix.  For that, I need a story.

    Consider me a different type of player, then.
    While I do not disagree with the sentiment of your post, nor your opinions, I would say Rpg or not still falls down to player preference in the situation you are describing.

    For me, just playing my role is enough, much like @SEANMCAD I really only care about performing actions that are fun to me, so I never pay attention to the story. I have played WoW for literally years (since 2006) and I could not tell you one significant arc to any of the expansions or vanilla. Seriously no clue as to who is who and why it would matter.  

    SO for me, just playing my role, and yes why I play the MM portion of these games is beyond me, but I do. However, just satisfying my desire for fun and relaxation is RPG enough for me. 

    I get and appreciate that not everyone will agree with my definition, and I can completely see why others desire a story and complete immersion, it makes sense. When I was a PnP player I wanted a good DM that could bring the story to life, for whatever reason I do not seek that in MMORPG games.

    Now as to a strict Rpg game definition, where you play a significant role and other players are depending on your existence within that role for their enjoyment, I would say no, I do not play Rpg games by that definition. Also, contrary to my behavior here of late towards certain members of these boards, I do not mess with Role players when they are doing their thing. I feel this is an important distinction as I am no troll nor do I support that behavior in games. I am more of a live and let live type in games. I find it is just easier that way.

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

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