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Character Advancement & Longevity

Big.Daddy.SamediBig.Daddy.Samedi Member UncommonPosts: 288
So I have been following the game off and on, and have really been holding off getting too hyped. I have not backed it yet as I have decided to only buy released games after being burned by 2 founders packs. 

What I would like to know.... If there is no character building in the game, then what makes this any different that just playing a normal FPS. Some people were saying it has gear progression, but that would defeat the motto of player skill over toon skills. Doesn't it?

So what is the focus on the game then if there is no character progression?

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Comments

  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,318
    I am not Chris but my gut feeling is this is nothing more than an all out cash shop game.
    Player skill requires no spending of money,gear progression and add ons/ships etc etc req's lots of spending and that is what this game is aiming for.
    This entire genre of space games is just full of half assed effort.Eve for example created skills but via a simple check mark and waiting over time is NOT the way to implement skills.you should develop skills through use.

    i have not dived into the abilities in this game but i do not think there is any actual TEAM work abilities.Like so many games it is really just a MMO moniker that will be played as a single player game with several single player actions.
    Team work abilities/skills would allow a more coherent team to win over  a bunch of single minded players.
    So my point is that this team or Chris can fiddle around with animations and boarding of ships for months years but when the combat itself is just very average to weak it won't matter.
    Even the dock should be full of skills,like abilities to fix your ships or to work on them,instead it is nothing more than an empty hangar to store your cash shop purchases.So yeah no effort anywhere that needs it,so yeah a cash shop game.
    VikingirBabuinixZandog

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    The dream they are selling is to be in a virtual world where any of your sci-fi dreams can come true.  You can be a pirate, a merchant or a soldier for hire.  Sadly it seems that all those roles are dependent on the amount you spend buying ships and parts for your ship. 

    The hyper-fans will tell you, you dont need to buy anything and it will all be available in the game through normal gameplay but that is the excuse of every F2P game out there.  The company is not charging a sub fee so the current plan is to sustain itself using only cash shop sales.  If you could earn a $200 ship (like the one Erillion purchased) in 2 to 3 months of play, they would go out of business. 

    You are much better voting with your wallet once the game launches. 
    VikingirZandogMaxBacon
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,825
    edited July 2017
    Nevermind those who little to nothing know about the game when it comes to this sort of mechanics just to spit out speculation about the monetization model.

    The game has no direct character progression as leveling, unlocking skills and similar stuff you would find in other MMO's. In that sphere, you get better gear, either that is ships, components, FPS weapons, armor, gadgets, etc... Of course the game has different professions you can approach and what you might want to get will depend on what path you want to take.

    Getting a specific ship lays you in where you want to go, from there it goes from customizing and upgrade its components, to even also AI Crew that is also mentioned to be upgradeable.

    The core will lie on the gear you have (and that is the grind-based progression any MMO needs), from there, your skill at it. That is mostly the path that takes you to the "endgame", that is likely where orgs (guilds) and PvP take a strong place.

    In terms of your player character: no levels, no traits, no skill trees.
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
    ExcessionBabuinixZandog
  • Big.Daddy.SamediBig.Daddy.Samedi Member UncommonPosts: 288
    @MaxBacon: I really just don't see how this game can have real longevity when it is essentially a game of Halo. Forgive me for oversimplifying this, but this is what it seems like to me. This games features are like a dream to me.... this is the game I imagined when I first played Mace Griffon: Bounty Hunter, or when I first played EQ and thought how great a SciFi mmo would be.

    The problem solely lies with the idea that the game can be engaging and meaningful enough to keep people playing long term. I guess really the only people that can really answer this would be CIG. If they have enough content, and generate enough activities, I could see at least somewhat why people would keep playing.

  • MellowTiggerMellowTigger Member UncommonPosts: 84
    General advice: I always ignore people with 4+ digits of posts in their history.  I wish there was a way to automatically mute them.  They've clearly sacrificed time spent actually playing or researching a game so they can write posts here instead.

    Character stats:  Instead, it will all be about reputation.  In other games, I suppose the term would be "faction".  If you have high reputation with the various races and organizations, then you will have access to quests and materials/quantities that other players will not.  I expect (I don't have a source handy) that reputation will also affect the quality/kind of NPCs that you can hire to help you on your ships.  Reputations are your "stats".  There will be plenty to do for character progression, but not with Strength, Agility, Constitution scores.  Building reputation will require time spent actually playing the game.

    Ship stats: All ship components can be tweaked to suit your needs of the moment.  Players will be able to focus on this specific activity ("crafting" in other games) to create customized  components, for when you're at a dock and can make changes to your ship loadouts.  There will also be lesser tweaking "on the fly" for NPCs or skilled PCs to do much the same to help your ship in particular situations while it's in flight.

    "Character building": We have yet to see the non-combat systems roll out to an alpha release.  We are promised, though, a wide array of in-game systems that will allow us to do pretty much anything we want.  Play sim-farm in the Endeavor biodomes, if you want.  Win money by winning professional races, if you want.  Specialize in trading secrets or hunting bounties, if you want.  You'll also be able to modify your ships, add decals, change your clothing, etc.  So... you'll be able to choose your own adventure, if reality meets the promises.  We should start seeing some of these non-combat systems appear late in 2017 with more in 2018.  That will be the time to judge their effectiveness.  That's what the alpha development phase is for.
    PhaserlightVikingirKyleran
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,825
    edited July 2017
    @MaxBacon: I really just don't see how this game can have real longevity when it is essentially a game of Halo. Forgive me for oversimplifying this, but this is what it seems like to me. This games features are like a dream to me.... this is the game I imagined when I first played Mace Griffon: Bounty Hunter, or when I first played EQ and thought how great a SciFi mmo would be.

    The problem solely lies with the idea that the game can be engaging and meaningful enough to keep people playing long term. I guess really the only people that can really answer this would be CIG. If they have enough content, and generate enough activities, I could see at least somewhat why people would keep playing.
    Like any MMO, the longevity is added by adding things to grind for (in PvE). When it is gear based and you can get better or customize your gear (due their modular approach), there will have to be things you want that will lay the rewards you get as you play.

    Some will defend that grind is evil, but it's what keeps MMO's alive; give people objectives, shiny things to get or upgrade is at the core of it, as long the gameplay backs it up decently, it does keep people engaged.

    Like on GW2: A shiny legendary weapon/backpack/armor/etc skin/item?! Ima grind my ass out for that, next year I have it! :D It just works.

    There's one thing where longevity doesn't matter much to progression, and that is PvP. 
    Post edited by MaxBacon on
    bcbully
  • HatefullHatefull Member EpicPosts: 2,145
    Wizardry said:
    I am not Chris but my gut feeling is this is nothing more than an all out cash shop game.
    Player skill requires no spending of money,gear progression and add ons/ships etc etc req's lots of spending and that is what this game is aiming for.
    This entire genre of space games is just full of half assed effort.Eve for example created skills but via a simple check mark and waiting over time is NOT the way to implement skills.you should develop skills through use.

    i have not dived into the abilities in this game but i do not think there is any actual TEAM work abilities.Like so many games it is really just a MMO moniker that will be played as a single player game with several single player actions.
    Team work abilities/skills would allow a more coherent team to win over  a bunch of single minded players.
    So my point is that this team or Chris can fiddle around with animations and boarding of ships for months years but when the combat itself is just very average to weak it won't matter.
    Even the dock should be full of skills,like abilities to fix your ships or to work on them,instead it is nothing more than an empty hangar to store your cash shop purchases.So yeah no effort anywhere that needs it,so yeah a cash shop game.
    Ahh yes, another unqualified and uneducated post by one of the usual subjects.

    There are multi-crew ships in the game already, if that isn't teamwork, then I don't know what is. Just one direct refute of one of your claims there are thousands more.

    Anyway, now then on to the original question.

    From what I have read, and it has been quite a bit, and I am sure Elerrion (can't remember the kid with the Rabbit) will be here soon to fill in the blanks, but from what I have read just learning to be a good pilot will eat up a considerable amount of time.

    Then there are the different trades you can try, FPS (ship boarding action), ship collecting, parts collecting. Etc. The points is I think there will be plenty of stuff for someone that is interested in immersing themselves into the game to do.

    Which, from all I have read thus far makes me less and less interested as I just do not have the time to invest in this sort of endeavor.

    There are a lot of resources out there for you to go and poke around in and get your own answers, the point behind this statement is: don't just take our words for it (and disregard anything Wizard says) but take a look for yourself. Something I hate you may really enjoy.
    Zandog

    If you want a new idea, go read an old book.

  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,862
    So I have been following the game off and on, and have really been holding off getting too hyped. I have not backed it yet as I have decided to only buy released games after being burned by 2 founders packs. 

    What I would like to know.... If there is no character building in the game, then what makes this any different that just playing a normal FPS. Some people were saying it has gear progression, but that would defeat the motto of player skill over toon skills. Doesn't it?

    So what is the focus on the game then if there is no character progression?
    Let's put it this way. Just about everything is pure speculation because CIG has been dragging its ass in implementing features and instead relies on the community to hype it in their heads (or hype it themselves) and speculate on how awesome the game will be when/if it releases. 

    Come back in 3-5 years and ask again and maybe we will have an idea how things might work to give you a proper answer
    VikingirZandog
  • PhaserlightPhaserlight Member EpicPosts: 2,888
    General advice: I always ignore people with 4+ digits of posts in their history.  I wish there was a way to automatically mute them.  They've clearly sacrificed time spent actually playing or researching a game so they can write posts here instead.

    Character stats:  Instead, it will all be about reputation.  In other games, I suppose the term would be "faction".  If you have high reputation with the various races and organizations, then you will have access to quests and materials/quantities that other players will not.  I expect (I don't have a source handy) that reputation will also affect the quality/kind of NPCs that you can hire to help you on your ships.  Reputations are your "stats".  There will be plenty to do for character progression, but not with Strength, Agility, Constitution scores.  Building reputation will require time spent actually playing the game.

    Ship stats: All ship components can be tweaked to suit your needs of the moment.  Players will be able to focus on this specific activity ("crafting" in other games) to create customized  components, for when you're at a dock and can make changes to your ship loadouts.  There will also be lesser tweaking "on the fly" for NPCs or skilled PCs to do much the same to help your ship in particular situations while it's in flight.

    "Character building": We have yet to see the non-combat systems roll out to an alpha release.  We are promised, though, a wide array of in-game systems that will allow us to do pretty much anything we want.  Play sim-farm in the Endeavor biodomes, if you want.  Win money by winning professional races, if you want.  Specialize in trading secrets or hunting bounties, if you want.  You'll also be able to modify your ships, add decals, change your clothing, etc.  So... you'll be able to choose your own adventure, if reality meets the promises.  We should start seeing some of these non-combat systems appear late in 2017 with more in 2018.  That will be the time to judge their effectiveness.  That's what the alpha development phase is for.
    Says the guy with 81 posts...

    "The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
    Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 4 tracks in Distance

  • Big.Daddy.SamediBig.Daddy.Samedi Member UncommonPosts: 288
    I am not really hyping myself for the game too much. Though I have watched some recent footage of game play that had FPS and ground combat. As well as hulks/derelict ships.... I am becoming more and more interested in the game by the day.

    Thank you everyone for your information (Both positive/negative/factual or opinion) 
    I will hold out a little longer and see how 3.0 goes.

  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    MaxBacon said:


    Getting a specific ship lays you in where you want to go, from there it goes from customizing and upgrade its components, to even also AI Crew that is also mentioned to be upgradeable.

    And that specific ship can easily be purchased in the cash shop! 


    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,822
    I agree that the game is still in early development which means it's mostly in the planning stage.  During development, plans tend to change so,  I would wait until beta to decide as most of the game's actual vs planned structure should be in place by then.  

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,825
    edited July 2017
    Talonsin said:
    And that specific ship can easily be purchased in the cash shop! 
    The point of this thread is progression and longevity in-game, and that is earned in-game in several fronts, either you bought ships or not, your speculation is irrelevant to that.

    I am not really hyping myself for the game too much. Though I have watched some recent footage of game play that had FPS and ground combat. As well as hulks/derelict ships.... I am becoming more and more interested in the game by the day.

    Thank you everyone for your information (Both positive/negative/factual or opinion) 
    I will hold out a little longer and see how 3.0 goes.
    The game embeds the FPS play within all its aspects, now with the planetary addictions and the exploration that comes with it, it's pretty much part of it.

    But it clearly shows the direction it is going. Progression and longevity will be long-term topics for the game as it develops past the most core features to its economy and intended game loop; the alpha will be more of a sandbox approach to things.
    Vikingir
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,862
    MaxBacon said:
    Talonsin said:
    And that specific ship can easily be purchased in the cash shop! 
    The point of this thread is progression and longevity in-game, and that is earned in-game in several fronts, either you bought ships or not, your speculation is irrelevant to that.

    It's not speculation if it's actually true lol
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    MaxBacon said:
    Talonsin said:
    And that specific ship can easily be purchased in the cash shop! 
    The point of this thread is progression and longevity in-game, and that is earned in-game in several fronts, either you bought ships or not, your speculation is irrelevant to that.


    But according to you progression is tied to gear and it is a space game where ships and components are the main "gear".  Heck, the OP can start progressing right now using the cash shop years before the game even launches.  How is that irrelevant to the OP's question? 
    MaxBacon
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,825
    Kefo said:
    It's not speculation if it's actually true lol
    Not it is not, not model post-launch (their repeated claims), this is the funding model. Claim anything beyond that lies in speculation.
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    It's not speculation if it's actually true lol
    this is the funding model. Claim anything beyond that lies in speculation.
    How can you claim to know the funding model for a game that has not launched yet?  You can not say Chris told you because Chris has lied said many things that have been wrong changed. 
    VikingirMaxBacon
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,825
    Talonsin said:
    How can you claim to know the funding model for a game that has not launched yet?  You can not say Chris told you because Chris has lied said many things that have been wrong changed. 
    Because it has been announced and talked about for years now. It is already implemented within the platform and will obviously in the future be implemented in the game (and only then will it work).
  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    MaxBacon said:
    Talonsin said:
    How can you claim to know the funding model for a game that has not launched yet?  You can not say Chris told you because Chris has lied said many things that have been wrong changed. 
    Because it has been announced and talked about for years now. It is already implemented within the platform and will obviously in the future be implemented in the game (and only then will it work).
    SQ42 was announced to be playable in 4th qtr 2016 and that did not happen.

    In 2013 Chris announced that stretch goals would not delay the 2014 release of the game but that did not happen.

    Star Marine was announced to be released in "weeks not months or years" in 2015 and that did not happen.

    I am always amazed when a certain group takes what a developer says as "written in stone" when it supports their position but when the developer says anything that does not come to pass that same group says "its alpha, things are going to change".

    The sad truth is, everything you and I are saying is speculation until the game is actually released. 
    Babuinix
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,825
    edited July 2017
    Talonsin said:
    The sad truth is, everything you and I are saying is speculation until the game is actually released. 
    The sad truth for you is, you are lying your narrative in your own speculation, speculating that it will change, but over that, you also speculate that such will change to what you SAY it will be. lol

    The long announced model I mentioned is not speculation, it is as I said already implemented within the platform to be in the future implemented in the game. Whatever changes or not with the rest is to be seen in the future.
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,862
    MaxBacon said:
    Talonsin said:
    How can you claim to know the funding model for a game that has not launched yet?  You can not say Chris told you because Chris has lied said many things that have been wrong changed. 
    Because it has been announced and talked about for years now. It is already implemented within the platform and will obviously in the future be implemented in the game (and only then will it work).
    Just like star marine is weeks and not months away right? Just because it's announced doesn't mean it will be true especially when CR is talking
    Babuinix
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,825
    Kefo said:
    Just like star marine is weeks and not months away right? Just because it's announced doesn't mean it will be true especially when CR is talking
    Come up with delayed release dates to somehow back up your point that the design will change?

    Not only was it announced, it's already implemented in the platform to be implemented in the game in the future, that is not speculation, it's something confirmed that will happen, now anything past that will be speculation.
    Vikingir
  • VrikaVrika Member EpicPosts: 5,734

    Some people were saying it has gear progression, but that would defeat the motto of player skill over toon skills. Doesn't it?
    Yes. It's never going to fair arena type fights. One side will always have advantage in either gear, or numbers, or both.

    In FPS gameplay the weapons are deadly enough that a skilled player will likely have good chance of overcoming that advantage. In space combat I think it'll be more about who gets the advantage before the battle is engaged.
     
  • KefoKefo Member EpicPosts: 3,862
    MaxBacon said:
    Kefo said:
    Just like star marine is weeks and not months away right? Just because it's announced doesn't mean it will be true especially when CR is talking
    Come up with delayed release dates to somehow back up your point that the design will change?

    Not only was it announced, it's already implemented in the platform to be implemented in the game in the future, that is not speculation, it's something confirmed that will happen, now anything past that will be speculation.
    It's planned to be in yeah and anything past that is speculation which means it might also change. Until it's actually in game and working as intended then assume speculation
  • VikingirVikingir Member UncommonPosts: 162
    edited July 2017
    So what is the focus on the game then if there is no character progression?
    It's already been answered by others but I want to add my 2 cents. Obvioulsy, most of what's coming in the future we have to base on what the developer has said they'll implement. To a certain degree these things can change in details but there are some major game design choices that is clear already now - or the game would be very different from the plan in the end, and that's not likely.

    1. First we must establish what we're talking about. There are two games in development - a single player theme park military campaign based shooter, Star Citizen Squadron 42 (3 chapters), and an open sandbox multi-genred MMO, Star Citizen. I will consentrate on the latter in the following.

    2. Star Citizen MMO is a first person universe with no traditional levels, where your character progress through player skills, that is profession skills you acquire through playing and learning, until you master the profession. You will compete (if you want) with other players' skills and equipment. For instance, in combat, which is what is most developed in the game so far, you train your flying skills in ship-to-ship combat and/or FPS combat, to compete with other players to survive. The best trained fighter usually wins, if other factors are equal. The other occupations, like trade, mining, exploration, etc. will be similarily skill based.

    3. Reputation will be important. That is, your positive or negative reputation is based on how you perform your job through missions, and how good your skills are in that job. If you manage to deliver the expected results to the mission giver, then you earn positive reputation. If you fail on some point, then your reputation can suffer and you may not get a new mission from that mission giver later, or you may have to choose from lesser paid missions.

    4. Teamwork will be vital in multi-crew ships and in operations. Your performance as a team will often depend on how your team mates do their job. It's perfectly possible to fly a one-man's ship and live in the universe as a loner, but it'll be necessary to join an organization or have friends if you want to do more complex operations that require teamwork.

    5. There's no end game, where you "win" and then quit the game or resume to play one more time. You play by living and competing in the sandbox universe, do your job as best as you can, until your character dies.

    6. Your character will build a record of his/hers life in the game, until permadeath (which is where the character is buried and an heir takes over the assets with a new character). For instance, your character could be famous for discovering a new star system or finding the largest gold mine in the known universe, or you could be infamous for being the worst crime lord in centuries. This life record will be viewable by other players.

    7. IMO there's character progression in Star Citizen, but different than the traditional way of thinking of it. You build your character through skill, reputation, and life achievements, which IMO is more natural and immersive than getting points through artificial levels.

    TalonsinPhaserlight
    Best regards,
    Viking
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