Not everything is an mmorpg

Midnight-Shadow · June 2017

Ok, I need to rant a little bit here guys because I'm a little bit sick of every multiplayer game being called an mmorpg. Over the last couple of days I've been playing Kritika Online which is currently in closed beta. I initially looked at it because it claimed to be an mmorpg, when it clearly is NOT. It's an online multiplayer brawler. What's the difference you may ask? Let's look at a few definitions that I have found and compare them to Kritika Online:

According to techopedia, an mmorpg is "a video game that takes place in a persistent state world (PSW) with thousands, or even millions, of players developing their characters in a role-playing environment. The virtual world in which the game takes place is never static. Even when a player is logged off, events are occurring across the world that may impact the player when he or she logs in again."

According to the oxford dictionary, it is "An online role-playing video game in which a very large number of people participate simultaneously."

According to webopedia, they are "online role-playing multiplayer games which allow thousands of gamers to play in the game's evolving virtual world at the same time via the Internet."

So you see a theme here, and really it boils down to 2 core elements:

1. A persistent game world

2. The ability to interact with thousands of different players.

Now let's look at Kritika Online. There is no persistent game world because the entire game is instanced, separated into playable missions (limited to groups of 4 people max) and the hub towns. The hub towns are the only source of interaction between players, and again these are limited to 50 people per instance. Now, last time I checked, 50 people does NOT equal thousands, or even hundreds. These hub towns are nothing more than a glorified chat room/lobby where instead of just seeing people's names and the text they write, you can see their characters as well. That is not "massively multiplayer" in any way, so why the hell are we calling this game an mmorpg?

Why does this matter? Because a lot of people (myself included) don't like fully instanced games such as this, because we like to explore and randomly meet other people along the way. You cannot do that in a game like kritika Online and if I had known about it from the outset, I wouldn't have wasted time downloading it. There are other games that claim to be mmorpgs but aren't, games like Dragon's Nest, Skyforge, Vindictus. These are not mmorpgs.

TLDR: If your game is fully instanced with no ability to explore the world at all, it is NOT an mmorpg. Stop calling it that!

/end rant

Kyleran · June 2017

While I agree with you the newspeak crowd will tell you its OK for the definitions of words and acronyms to change over time or that it doesn't matter what you call a game as long as it's "fun"

A losing battle my friend....

delete5230 · June 2017

This is the way I look at it:

The first 30 mmorpg's set the definition.

This definition should have evolved through the years, but instead they changed into games online, with a lot of corruption in marketing to fool players and also turned into cash shops.

Elsabolts · June 2017

I do not think gaming consol's should be considered mmo's and when PC designed games start failing its dumb down and released on consol.

Midnight-Shadow · June 2017

Elsabolts said:

I do not think gaming consol's should be considered mmo's and when PC designed games start failing its dumb down and released on consol.

That's not what we are talking about here..... I couldn't care less if they port mmorpgs to console. My problem is games like Invictus, Dragon Nest, Skyforge and Kritika Online (to name but a few) that claim to be mmorpgs but blatantly aren't. Of those 4 games, only Skyforge is on console, with the rest being PC exclusive.

Midnight-Shadow · June 2017

delete5230 said:

This is the way I look at it:

The first 30 mmorpg's set the definition.

This definition should have evolved through the years, but instead they changed into games online, with a lot of corruption in marketing to fool players and also turned into cash shops.

So what is your definition of an mmorpg? Any game with a character progression system that you play online with other people? Because that is a pretty broad definition and includes a whole host of different games, including games like CoD, LoL, Dota2, etc. Do you consider those games mmorpgs as well?

Sovrath · June 2017

Kyleran said:

While I agree with you the newspeak crowd will tell you its OK for the definitions of words and acronyms to change over time or that it doesn't matter what you call a game as long as it's "fun"

A losing battle my friend....

Well, if you still use the original meaning for such words as "Clue" or "Silly" then you might have a leg to stand on. I'm sure many of us had an "inmate" at some time or another. Probably when they were a bit "Naughty"

Other than that, people use their "modern" uses and not the original uses for many words.

I suppose MMORPG's are just going to have to go with the flow.

waynejr2 · June 2017

Kyleran said:

While I agree with you the newspeak crowd will tell you its OK for the definitions of words and acronyms to change over time or that it doesn't matter what you call a game as long as it's "fun"

A losing battle my friend....

A grammarian once told a class I was in that English changes constantly and that words change in meaning. It is a fact.

Midnight-Shadow · June 2017

To Waynejr2 and Sovrath, if the definition of "mmorpg" has changed and I didn't get the memo about it, what is the new definition? In other words, what separates an mmorpg from every other multiplayer game? Or are we now calling any game with online multiplayer an mmorpg?

xpowderx · June 2017

Midnight-Shadow said:

To Waynejr2 and Sovrath, if the definition of "mmorpg" has changed and I didn't get the memo about it, what is the new definition? In other words, what separates an mmorpg from every other multiplayer game? Or are we now calling any game with online multiplayer an mmorpg?

I think the part that says RPG at the end of MMORPG. Otherwise it is a MMOFPS, MMORTS ect. If it changed. I must be behind the times.

Kyleran · June 2017

waynejr2 said:

Kyleran said:

While I agree with you the newspeak crowd will tell you its OK for the definitions of words and acronyms to change over time or that it doesn't matter what you call a game as long as it's "fun"

A losing battle my friend....

A grammarian once told a class I was in that English changes constantly and that words change in meaning. It is a fact.

I'm old enough to have personally witnessed some of those changes, usually not for the better.

But you can't resist the tide....

Sovrath · June 2017

Midnight-Shadow said:

To Waynejr2 and Sovrath, if the definition of "mmorpg" has changed and I didn't get the memo about it, what is the new definition? In other words, what separates an mmorpg from every other multiplayer game? Or are we now calling any game with online multiplayer an mmorpg?

That's now what we said now is it. What we have said is that words change (did you not pick up on the words I added that used to mean something different?) and we can clearly see the definition of "mmorpg" being swept along the change wagon.

I know what "I" think it is but as we can see its definition has broadened. If it survives the next 5 or 10 years you might not even recognize "what it is".

If you want to argue what a mmorpg is (which it seems you actually want to do) you can find another thread here on this site. Have at it.

Just know that you can argue until you are blue in the face, it's not going to necessarily change things.

If I said "it's awful" (playing devil's advocate) you would say "sure is". Except awful used to mean something good.

Mendel · June 2017

Kyleran said:

While I agree with you the newspeak crowd will tell you its OK for the definitions of words and acronyms to change over time or that it doesn't matter what you call a game as long as it's "fun"

A losing battle my friend....

When the newspeak crowd decide that definitions aren't constant or are individually defined, then communication falls apart, and the human race will sit around campfires jibbering to themselves.

Very much a losing battle.

Midnight-Shadow · June 2017

xpowderx said:

Midnight-Shadow said:

To Waynejr2 and Sovrath, if the definition of "mmorpg" has changed and I didn't get the memo about it, what is the new definition? In other words, what separates an mmorpg from every other multiplayer game? Or are we now calling any game with online multiplayer an mmorpg?

I think the part that says RPG at the end of MMORPG. Otherwise it is a MMOFPS, MMORTS ect. If it changed. I must be behind the times.

Ok, then let's forget the RPG part for a moment and focus on "MMO". What do you define as "massively multipler online"? Is it any game with online multiplayer? Because that would apply to many many many games. After all, 90% of AAA games released these days have some form of multiplayer aspect to it. Are they all mmo's?

And what about the RPG part? What exactly is a "role-playing game"? Is it any game where you take on the role of something in a fictional world and progress your character through it? Because in Call of Duty: Black Ops 3 you take on the role of a soldier in the battle against the terrorists of the future, and in the multiplayer you have character progression just like you have in traditional mmorpgs. If we are now calling any game with online multiplayer and RPG elements an mmorpg, then by that definition, Call of Duty is an mmorpg.

Is Starcraft 2 an MMORTS just because it has online multiplayer?
Is TF2 an MMOFPS just because it has online multiplayer?
Is Dark Souls 3 an MMORPG just because it has online coop?

Once you start claiming everything with multiplayer function is an mmo, that label becomes meaningless.

Kyleran · June 2017

At the end of the day MMORPGs are what "I" believe them to be.

Even if no one else agrees with me.

btdt · June 2017

MMORPG - Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game

That is the definition... how people interpret it is a different story.

We don't need a tight definition to have fun... hell Marathon was a blast back in the day. Did I care whether it was a LAN game or whatnot? No. It was fun as hell.

To limit your idea of fun to a succinct definition is to limit your fun. Why limit the definition of an MMORPG? I doubt people back in the day ran around saying they played an MMORPG... pretty sure they played EQ or WoW or the like... it just so happened to be an MMORPG.

If someone asked you what car you drive... I'm pretty sure you say something like a 2017 Honda Accord... not a 6-cylinder fossil fuel transportation device.

Apples and Oranges argument.

SleepingPanda777 · June 2017

Panda!
Anyway; LABELS do serve purpose. I bet you I can make stupids come from an acronym in attempts to muddy the issue at hand too, doesn't make me right.

Loke666 · June 2017

Sovrath said:
Well, if you still use the original meaning for such words as "Clue" or "Silly" then you might have a leg to stand on. I'm sure many of us had an "inmate" at some time or another. Probably when they were a bit "Naughty"

Other than that, people use their "modern" uses and not the original uses for many words.

I suppose MMORPG's are just going to have to go with the flow.

The problem isn't really that people start to call all online games MMOs but the fact that we don't have a new word forwhat's supposed to a MMORPG so it can be hard to figure if an upcomming game is one or not, and telling people what games I prefer suddenly leads to long discussions.

If we just started to call them something like ORPGs or whatever then it would be fine but now everyone just get confused.

Sovrath · June 2017

Mendel said:

Kyleran said:

While I agree with you the newspeak crowd will tell you its OK for the definitions of words and acronyms to change over time or that it doesn't matter what you call a game as long as it's "fun"

A losing battle my friend....

When the newspeak crowd decide that definitions aren't constant or are individually defined, then communication falls apart, and the human race will sit around campfires jibbering to themselves.

Very much a losing battle.

Except evidence points to the contrary.

SEANMCAD · June 2017

I have to rant as well!

I have a two games called Wurm Unlimited and Life is Feudal your own, both are private server based or even single player. However, both have the EXACT same code and rule sets as the MMO version do.

So when people start talking about game content and what is more compelling then something else throwing around the 'It aint an MMO get out of jail free card' gets really annoying an unproductive.

and to be frank the longer that goes on the more we will just see traditional MMO numbers drop because if developers think like players they will refuse to look at any content that works in other areas of gaming

Midnight-Shadow · June 2017

Sovrath said:

Midnight-Shadow said:

To Waynejr2 and Sovrath, if the definition of "mmorpg" has changed and I didn't get the memo about it, what is the new definition? In other words, what separates an mmorpg from every other multiplayer game? Or are we now calling any game with online multiplayer an mmorpg?

That's now what we said now is it. What we have said is that words change (did you not pick up on the words I added that used to mean something different?) and we can clearly see the definition of "mmorpg" being swept along the change wagon.

I know what "I" think it is but as we can see its definition has broadened. If it survives the next 5 or 10 years you might not even recognize "what it is".

If you want to argue what a mmorpg is (which it seems you actually want to do) you can find another thread here on this site. Have at it.

Just know that you can argue until you are blue in the face, it's not going to necessarily change things.

If I said "it's awful" (playing devil's advocate) you would say "sure is". Except awful used to mean something good.

Errr... In case you haven't noticed, THIS IS MY THREAD! and as such I will discuss topics that I see fit. You said that the definition of "mmorpg" has changed, and I asked you what it has changed to. Nothing more or less.

laxie · June 2017

SEANMCAD said:
I have a two games called Wurm Unlimited and Life is Feudal your own, both are private server based or even single player. However, both have the EXACT same code and rule sets as the MMO version do.

That's an interesting point.

Something like Wurm Unlimited with 50 players is probably a lot closer to the traditional concept of a MMORPG than World of Warcraft with a dungeon finder.

The "MMORPG" term is ambiguous to begin with.

Sovrath · June 2017

Midnight-Shadow said:

Sovrath said:

Midnight-Shadow said:

To Waynejr2 and Sovrath, if the definition of "mmorpg" has changed and I didn't get the memo about it, what is the new definition? In other words, what separates an mmorpg from every other multiplayer game? Or are we now calling any game with online multiplayer an mmorpg?

That's now what we said now is it. What we have said is that words change (did you not pick up on the words I added that used to mean something different?) and we can clearly see the definition of "mmorpg" being swept along the change wagon.

I know what "I" think it is but as we can see its definition has broadened. If it survives the next 5 or 10 years you might not even recognize "what it is".

If you want to argue what a mmorpg is (which it seems you actually want to do) you can find another thread here on this site. Have at it.

Just know that you can argue until you are blue in the face, it's not going to necessarily change things.

If I said "it's awful" (playing devil's advocate) you would say "sure is". Except awful used to mean something good.

Errr... In case you haven't noticed, THIS IS MY THREAD! and as such I will discuss topics that I see fit. You said that the definition of "mmorpg" has changed, and I asked you what it has changed to. Nothing more or less.

Midnight-Shadow said:

Sovrath said:

Midnight-Shadow said:

To Waynejr2 and Sovrath, if the definition of "mmorpg" has changed and I didn't get the memo about it, what is the new definition? In other words, what separates an mmorpg from every other multiplayer game? Or are we now calling any game with online multiplayer an mmorpg?

That's now what we said now is it. What we have said is that words change (did you not pick up on the words I added that used to mean something different?) and we can clearly see the definition of "mmorpg" being swept along the change wagon.

I know what "I" think it is but as we can see its definition has broadened. If it survives the next 5 or 10 years you might not even recognize "what it is".

If you want to argue what a mmorpg is (which it seems you actually want to do) you can find another thread here on this site. Have at it.

Just know that you can argue until you are blue in the face, it's not going to necessarily change things.

If I said "it's awful" (playing devil's advocate) you would say "sure is". Except awful used to mean something good.

Errr... In case you haven't noticed, THIS IS MY THREAD! and as such I will discuss topics that I see fit. You said that the definition of "mmorpg" has changed, and I asked you what it has changed to. Nothing more or less.

Well I thought you were just making a statement of defiance as there is already a thread arguing the point. So I guess you made another one.

.in any case my definition is your definition but what does it matter? It's already expanded to include any online game where a "massive amount of people can access the game at one time. And as I've said if it survives another 10 years it might mean something else. Or it might no longer be used anymore.

Midnight-Shadow · June 2017

btdt said:

MMORPG - Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game

That is the definition... how people interpret it is a different story.

We don't need a tight definition to have fun... hell Marathon was a blast back in the day. Did I care whether it was a LAN game or whatnot? No. It was fun as hell.

To limit your idea of fun to a succinct definition is to limit your fun. Why limit the definition of an MMORPG? I doubt people back in the day ran around saying they played an MMORPG... pretty sure they played EQ or WoW or the like... it just so happened to be an MMORPG.

If someone asked you what car you drive... I'm pretty sure you say something like a 2017 Honda Accord... not a 6-cylinder fossil fuel transportation device.

Apples and Oranges argument.

Actually, when it comes to consumer products, accurate definitions and labels that everyone understands are very important. For this I'm going to shamelessly quote TotalBiscuit who had a similar rant to mine when it came to separating "rogue-like" and "rogue-lite" games. His analogy was that if he goes to the cinema to watch a film, and all the film says is "sci-fi" is that good enough for him? Answer is no, because although he likes sci-fi films, you have many many different kinds of sci-fi films. He loves sci-fi action films but hates sci-fi horror films. He needs to know what kind of sci-fi film he is going to see and to do that he needs an accurate label to tell him.

Similarly, I love games like WoW, Final Fantasy, EQ2, etc that have an open world to explore, but I hate fully instanced games like Skyforge, Kritika, Dragon Nest, etc. If all you say to me going in is that all those games are mmorpgs and nothing else, how am I to know if I will like the game or not? Why should I waste my precious time downloading and installing a game when it hasn't given me an accurate description of what kind of game it is?

Hell, let's look at your car analogy. Let's say you go to a car sales store to buy a new car, but instead of actually being able to see the car in person before-hand, you are just given a catalogue with a picture of each car, and the only information you are given is the name of it, and nothing else. How are you meant to make an informed decision without knowing what kind of drive it is, how many seats it has, what different functions it has, etc.

This isn't about arguing semantics or definitions, it's about informing the consumer so that they can make meaningful decisions on which games to get.

Kyleran · June 2017

btdt said:

MMORPG - Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game

That is the definition... how people interpret it is a different story.

We don't need a tight definition to have fun... hell Marathon was a blast back in the day. Did I care whether it was a LAN game or whatnot? No. It was fun as hell.

To limit your idea of fun to a succinct definition is to limit your fun. Why limit the definition of an MMORPG? I doubt people back in the day ran around saying they played an MMORPG... pretty sure they played EQ or WoW or the like... it just so happened to be an MMORPG.

If someone asked you what car you drive... I'm pretty sure you say something like a 2017 Honda Accord... not a 6-cylinder fossil fuel transportation device.

Apples and Oranges argument.

If someone asks me what I drive I say a "pick up truck.

No one tries to convince me it is a car, a bus, SUV or a limo.

Almost everyone I know would easily recognize it and agree with my definition and outside of some weird hybrids there would be little confusion over what the term means.

This standard definition has been around for a very long time and isn't likely to change.

So why not the same for MMORPGs?

Oh yes, your Honda Accord, usually referred to as a Sedan. But never a pick up truck.

Sovrath · June 2017

Kyleran said:

btdt said:

MMORPG - Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game

That is the definition... how people interpret it is a different story.

We don't need a tight definition to have fun... hell Marathon was a blast back in the day. Did I care whether it was a LAN game or whatnot? No. It was fun as hell.

To limit your idea of fun to a succinct definition is to limit your fun. Why limit the definition of an MMORPG? I doubt people back in the day ran around saying they played an MMORPG... pretty sure they played EQ or WoW or the like... it just so happened to be an MMORPG.

If someone asked you what car you drive... I'm pretty sure you say something like a 2017 Honda Accord... not a 6-cylinder fossil fuel transportation device.

Apples and Oranges argument.

If someone asks me what I drive I say a "pick up truck.

No one tries to convince me it is a car, a bus, SUV or a limo.

Almost everyone I know would easily recognize it and agree with my definition and outside of some weird hybrids there would be little confusion over what the term means.

This standard definition has been around for a very long time and isn't likely to change.

So why not the same for MMORPGs?

Yeah but the etymology of truck shows it was a little different so it very well could evolve

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Not everything is an mmorpg

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Not everything is an mmorpg

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV