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Metrics and charts, how accurate are they.

delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
edited May 2017 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
First by saying I don't have access to them.  Maybe I could find this information somewhere, but in all reality I don't care what studies show us.......... Now, your saying to yourself, how can the OP come to any conclusion with out official information.  Well read on ! 


First you can't chart something if something in the mix was TAKEN AWAY.  In the case of mmos this is HUGE !!!  My best example is this:

If the world had both apples and bananas.  Most everyone likes both.  Now one day and for some odd reason apples were forcibly taken away (they no longer exist), how can you chart anything.  And if you did you would find PEOPLE ONLY LIKE BANANAS !! 


In the case of mmos:

This is no secret, something was forcibly taken away.  Even the hardest sticklers and critics should agree that large open world living breathing mmos that are driven by the community are now gone.  The ones that players can create their own stories and live in a world with friends making all decisions on what they do as they log on. 

If the core element is gone from what is now referred to classic and nostalgia, how can this be charted when it was forcibly removed ? Classic and nostalgia terminology is used for something that is old, but in the case of mmos it was forcibly removed.  It was used and liked by millions.  Something enjoyed by millions, simply vanished !

It's like taken away the steering wheel of a car and replacing it with left and right buttons.  Now if you chart left and right buttons on a car, years down the road, charts will show everyone likes buttons, EVEN IF BUTTONS ARE HARD TO NAGAVATE. 



By now your asking why would developers forcibly take away something that worked so well. 

This is extremely easy to answer..............
- Cost, developers didn't like paying for large world and game play designs.
- Capture everyone including all RPG players. 

Problems is millions of MMORPG players are left behind, Hybrids aren't filling the gap......Want prof ?  Run another poll here. 



Important for debunkers: 

Use the entire post for your argument not one line.  Everyone like to pick out four words and run with it and neglect the facts of the entire post :)   


 










     






 
Post edited by delete5230 on
GdemamiMikehaRidelynn

Comments

  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,118
    I've been thinking about this recently.

    Analytics encourage developers to view features in a vacuum. You don't even have to go as far as forcibly removing features - I think people do it voluntarily.

    Imagine your analytics say players spend 50% time on combat, 40% crafting/harvesting, 10% in a guild hall. So in the next expansion, you remove guild halls in favour of new combat/crafting areas. It may turn out that the 10% of guild hall time actually held the whole experience together.

    The more complex the game, the more this is true.
    [Deleted User]
  • VrikaVrika Member LegendaryPosts: 7,882
    edited May 2017
    To sum up your post:
    1. There is no way to measure the importance of open world in MMOs, and
    2. You just measured the importance of open world in MMOs, and
    3. You think we should run a poll and it would prove you're correct

    Gdemamipostlarval
     
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Vrika said:
    To sum up your post:
    1. There is no way to measure the importance of open world in MMOs, and
    2. You just measured the importance of open world in MMOs

    Yes, you got it !

    Charts show one thing but statements, polls, and testimonials here say something completely different ! 

    Don't forget the power of marketing, EVERYTHING to their advantage :)




    Gdemamipostlarval
  • SomethingUnusualSomethingUnusual Member UncommonPosts: 546
    Vrika said:
    To sum up your post:
    1. There is no way to measure the importance of open world in MMOs, and
    2. You just measured the importance of open world in MMOs

    Yes, you got it !

    Charts show one thing but statements, polls, and testimonials here say something completely different ! 

    Don't forget the power of marketing, EVERYTHING to their advantage :)




    You do realize that charts and graphs are usually made up of statement, poll, and testimonial data yes?

    There are better things to do than shit all over everything. 
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    Vrika said:
    To sum up your post:
    1. There is no way to measure the importance of open world in MMOs, and
    2. You just measured the importance of open world in MMOs

    Yes, you got it !

    Charts show one thing but statements, polls, and testimonials here say something completely different ! 

    Don't forget the power of marketing, EVERYTHING to their advantage :)




    You do realize that charts and graphs are usually made up of statement, poll, and testimonial data yes?

    There are better things to do than shit all over everything. 

    Ask yourself, How many polls have to be ran on this site to show the un-happiness of mmo players ? 

    Graphs can't be accurate if something is FORCED REMOVED !... I thought this was clear ! 

    Testimonial data... It shows all over this site, people are searching for an mmo.






     



    Gdemami
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    First off, which games are you talking about? Secondly, I don't think these worlds were ever enjoyed by "millions", at more we're talking about hundreds of thousands. That's not based on charts, but based on people on some of these projects. I'm interested in knowing what games we're talking about here, specifically, because I really can't think of any which catered to millions. That's one of the main reasons that there were changes to the industry. You should probably update your post with that as one of the reasons. 
    Mikeha

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 725
    There is a whole science dedicated to polling for information that considers the apple banana example. Determining if there is a market for something that is currently not available is another science also. I don't pretend to be an expert in either so wont elaborate.

    What you say cuts two ways too, for example it's easy for people to say open world is awesome when they haven't actually played it. Then when they do, they realise they need insta-travel to group up and areas end up empty, or the development budget is wasted on content few use etc.
  • SomethingUnusualSomethingUnusual Member UncommonPosts: 546
    Vrika said:
    To sum up your post:
    1. There is no way to measure the importance of open world in MMOs, and
    2. You just measured the importance of open world in MMOs

    Yes, you got it !

    Charts show one thing but statements, polls, and testimonials here say something completely different ! 

    Don't forget the power of marketing, EVERYTHING to their advantage :)




    You do realize that charts and graphs are usually made up of statement, poll, and testimonial data yes?

    There are better things to do than shit all over everything. 

    Ask yourself, How many polls have to be ran on this site to show the un-happiness of mmo players ? 

    Graphs can't be accurate if something is FORCED REMOVED !... I thought this was clear ! 

    Testimonial data... It shows all over this site, people are searching for an mmo.






     



    99% of those polls are made by the users... And most of them extremely biased with very little real data options. Blame the pollster, not the poll. 

    It's also the internet. The number one place to complain even when there is no merit to the complaint. Seriously, these people fight over whether sandbox or themepark are better rulesets. Forgetting that they are just games and forgetting that those games are also made by equally stupid or intelligent people. Some of them just need to go outside for a few minutes for sure. 
    Mikeha
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    CrazKanuk said:
    First off, which games are you talking about? Secondly, I don't think these worlds were ever enjoyed by "millions", at more we're talking about hundreds of thousands. That's not based on charts, but based on people on some of these projects. I'm interested in knowing what games we're talking about here, specifically, because I really can't think of any which catered to millions. That's one of the main reasons that there were changes to the industry. You should probably update your post with that as one of the reasons. 

    This is an easy one :)

    UO, EQ1, DAOC, FF11 where first gen mmos, they were gaining popularity by leaps and bounds......Even for dialup internet.  Then came second gen, EQ2, COH and most importantly VANILLA WORLD OF WARCRAFT. 

    Later Vanguard was advertised to take mmos to the next level along with Warhammer sure they were a mess but the vision what their !!!. 

    Then for no good reason FORCED change happened !.......Developers decided on cheaper cost and capture everyone. 





    Gdemami
  • SomethingUnusualSomethingUnusual Member UncommonPosts: 546
    CrazKanuk said:
    First off, which games are you talking about? Secondly, I don't think these worlds were ever enjoyed by "millions", at more we're talking about hundreds of thousands. That's not based on charts, but based on people on some of these projects. I'm interested in knowing what games we're talking about here, specifically, because I really can't think of any which catered to millions. That's one of the main reasons that there were changes to the industry. You should probably update your post with that as one of the reasons. 

    This is an easy one :)

    UO, EQ1, DAOC, FF11 where first gen mmos, they were gaining popularity by leaps and bounds......Even for dialup internet.  Then came second gen, EQ2, COH and most importantly VANILLA WORLD OF WARCRAFT. 

    Later Vanguard was advertised to take mmos to the next level along with Warhammer sure they were a mess but the vision what their !!!. 

    Then for no good reason FORCED change happened !.......Developers decided on cheaper cost and capture everyone. 





    Developers didn't decide anything. Producers and managers did.
    Gdemami
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    Vrika said:
    To sum up your post:
    1. There is no way to measure the importance of open world in MMOs, and
    2. You just measured the importance of open world in MMOs

    Yes, you got it !

    Charts show one thing but statements, polls, and testimonials here say something completely different ! 

    Don't forget the power of marketing, EVERYTHING to their advantage :)





    *woosh*
    SomethingUnusual
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    CrazKanuk said:
    First off, which games are you talking about? Secondly, I don't think these worlds were ever enjoyed by "millions", at more we're talking about hundreds of thousands. That's not based on charts, but based on people on some of these projects. I'm interested in knowing what games we're talking about here, specifically, because I really can't think of any which catered to millions. That's one of the main reasons that there were changes to the industry. You should probably update your post with that as one of the reasons. 

    This is an easy one :)

    UO, EQ1, DAOC, FF11 where first gen mmos, they were gaining popularity by leaps and bounds......Even for dialup internet.  Then came second gen, EQ2, COH and most importantly VANILLA WORLD OF WARCRAFT. 

    Later Vanguard was advertised to take mmos to the next level along with Warhammer sure they were a mess but the vision what their !!!. 

    Then for no good reason FORCED change happened !.......Developers decided on cheaper cost and capture everyone. 





    Of course they did! The games you mentioned never eclipsed more than a couple hundred thousand subscribers, AT THEIR PEAK!! With World of Warcraft coming in and seeing millions of subscribers, of course the genre would shift. That wasn't developers forcing a change, though, that was the community forcing a change. 

    That isn't to say there isn't room for old school type games, but the market for them is limited. Maybe if something like Pantheon can obtain and maintain a million subs for a couple years it'll open up the eyes of the industry, but I really just don't think that there are a million people there. 
    Kyleran

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    edited May 2017
    Data analysis plays one major role on MMO's, understanding what are your players are playing and not playing, from gear to skills, what they play mostly and what zones/types of content, to meta-builds, etc... Understanding such is what lets you balance the game and figure the direction to go when it comes to expand/improve the game.

    Reminds me of GW2 and its updates, every time they saw players were always on the same farm map or event, they put up updates to ruin it to force players to spread, that and their major focus on getting players to go play pvp by any means necessary! Or when they do massive nerfs on the metagaming builds because they want players to use different builds (so much salt!). Get all them shiny metrics.
    Excession
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member EpicPosts: 6,601
    They we're always rare. Nothing was taken away. They have just continued to maintain their rate status.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    MaxBacon said:
    Data analysis plays one major role on MMO's, understanding what are your players are playing and not playing, from gear to skills, what they play mostly and what zones/types of content, to meta-builds, etc... Understanding such is what lets you balance the game and figure the direction to go when it comes to expand/improve the game.

    Reminds me of GW2 and its updates, every time they saw players were always on the same farm map or event, they put up updates to ruin it to force players to spread, that and their major focus on getting players to go play pvp by any means necessary! Or when they do massive nerfs on the metagaming builds because they want players to use different builds (so much salt!). Get all them shiny metrics.

    Unrelated to the topic, this reminds me of Warhammer. 

    The game was heavy advertised as RvR.  Being slightly innovative at the time, it was a large selling point to the game.  Well, because the servers couldn't handle the lag, flaws and bugs of the RvR maps, Mystic decided to give ALL experience to scenarios ( instanced PvP ), even above PvE.  This funneled all players into repeatedly play Scenarios leaving the world dead.  I'll never forget that :(






  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 43,435
    edited May 2017
    CrazKanuk said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    First off, which games are you talking about? Secondly, I don't think these worlds were ever enjoyed by "millions", at more we're talking about hundreds of thousands. That's not based on charts, but based on people on some of these projects. I'm interested in knowing what games we're talking about here, specifically, because I really can't think of any which catered to millions. That's one of the main reasons that there were changes to the industry. You should probably update your post with that as one of the reasons. 

    This is an easy one :)

    UO, EQ1, DAOC, FF11 where first gen mmos, they were gaining popularity by leaps and bounds......Even for dialup internet.  Then came second gen, EQ2, COH and most importantly VANILLA WORLD OF WARCRAFT. 

    Later Vanguard was advertised to take mmos to the next level along with Warhammer sure they were a mess but the vision what their !!!. 

    Then for no good reason FORCED change happened !.......Developers decided on cheaper cost and capture everyone. 





    Of course they did! The games you mentioned never eclipsed more than a couple hundred thousand subscribers, AT THEIR PEAK!! With World of Warcraft coming in and seeing millions of subscribers, of course the genre would shift. That wasn't developers forcing a change, though, that was the community forcing a change. 

    That isn't to say there isn't room for old school type games, but the market for them is limited. Maybe if something like Pantheon can obtain and maintain a million subs for a couple years it'll open up the eyes of the industry, but I really just don't think that there are a million people there. 
    Where this conversation gets confusing is OP fails to understand WOW isn't part of the "old school" of open virtual world design, it's the title that lead to the end of such games.

    It bought about a period where developers did their best to "copy" what made WOW such a big success with the masses and even Blizzard started changing their game to focus on designs favored by the largest number of customers.

    When it became clear the market had substantially changed over the years (for many reasons often discussed here) developers either walked away from the genre (including Blizzard) or those who remained found ways to lower costs and focus on better ways to monetize their games.

    I personally enjoy living in virtual worlds, and while I'm sure some others do too, most people just want to "play games" and have "fun" and that's the direction devs focus on.

    It's where the big money is. (much better than any poll)




    Distopia

    "True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde 

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Member EpicPosts: 16,775
    Metrics and charts, how accurate are they



     










         






     
    usually they tend to be more accurate then pulling random gut feeling conclusions at of ones ass
    [Deleted User]SomethingUnusual

    Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.

    Please do not respond to me

  • btdtbtdt Member RarePosts: 523
    I don't understand why, you ask the same question time and again, and expect a different answer?

    You must have archived all these threads to review them from time to time, to help you craft yet another post of essentially the same thing, just slightly different.  I know I've seen at least 20 and that is being conservative.

    I can assure you... there is no answer to your question that hasn't been stated time and again before... and oddly enough... it hasn't changed anything nor reduced the frequency in which you post them.

    You obviously have nothing better to do with your time... and that time doesn't include playing the very games you purport to miss.
    Gdemami
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    MaxBacon said:
    Data analysis plays one major role on MMO's, understanding what are your players are playing and not playing, from gear to skills, what they play mostly and what zones/types of content, to meta-builds, etc... Understanding such is what lets you balance the game and figure the direction to go when it comes to expand/improve the game.

    Reminds me of GW2 and its updates, every time they saw players were always on the same farm map or event, they put up updates to ruin it to force players to spread, that and their major focus on getting players to go play pvp by any means necessary! Or when they do massive nerfs on the metagaming builds because they want players to use different builds (so much salt!). Get all them shiny metrics.

    Unrelated to the topic, this reminds me of Warhammer. 

    The game was heavy advertised as RvR.  Being slightly innovative at the time, it was a large selling point to the game.  Well, because the servers couldn't handle the lag, flaws and bugs of the RvR maps, Mystic decided to give ALL experience to scenarios ( instanced PvP ), even above PvE.  This funneled all players into repeatedly play Scenarios leaving the world dead.  I'll never forget that :(

    Welll within data analysis MMO's may cut or completely ignore features based on what the players are playing or what they want them to play. It's quite common seeing them do such things.
  • SomethingUnusualSomethingUnusual Member UncommonPosts: 546
    MaxBacon said:
    MaxBacon said:
    Data analysis plays one major role on MMO's, understanding what are your players are playing and not playing, from gear to skills, what they play mostly and what zones/types of content, to meta-builds, etc... Understanding such is what lets you balance the game and figure the direction to go when it comes to expand/improve the game.

    Reminds me of GW2 and its updates, every time they saw players were always on the same farm map or event, they put up updates to ruin it to force players to spread, that and their major focus on getting players to go play pvp by any means necessary! Or when they do massive nerfs on the metagaming builds because they want players to use different builds (so much salt!). Get all them shiny metrics.

    Unrelated to the topic, this reminds me of Warhammer. 

    The game was heavy advertised as RvR.  Being slightly innovative at the time, it was a large selling point to the game.  Well, because the servers couldn't handle the lag, flaws and bugs of the RvR maps, Mystic decided to give ALL experience to scenarios ( instanced PvP ), even above PvE.  This funneled all players into repeatedly play Scenarios leaving the world dead.  I'll never forget that :(

    Welll within data analysis MMO's may cut or completely ignore features based on what the players are playing or what they want them to play. It's quite common seeing them do such things.
    I see you read this one too: http://www.gamespace.com/all-articles/news/conan-exiles-joel-bylos-questions/?utm_source=mmorpg&utm_campaign=homepagebox

    Or maybe it's just common sense. It really is a hit or miss scenario. To err is human? Take it for what you got? 

    This would make an interesting conversation. 
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    edited May 2017
    I see you read this one too: http://www.gamespace.com/all-articles/news/conan-exiles-joel-bylos-questions/?utm_source=mmorpg&utm_campaign=homepagebox

    Or maybe it's just common sense. It really is a hit or miss scenario. To err is human? Take it for what you got? 

    This would make an interesting conversation. 
    This is one area of many factors. Overall companies have the business perspective that relies on the numbers, then you have the feedback that impacts such.

    I see the analysis being far more about balance, in on MMO like where you as the dev see 80% of your players are playing on a single area, or using the same build, that's the kind of data you want to know what to balance on updates.

    One of the biggest things they do with this is to balance out the economy, how much money players can earn in-game, the rate, the rare loot drops, etc... GW2 on this aspect is extremely nitpicky, it's how they want not how you want, haha
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    My first WTF, I couldn't follow the OP at all, and I don't know what we are yelling about.
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 7,081
    edited May 2017
    MaxBacon said:
    I see you read this one too: http://www.gamespace.com/all-articles/news/conan-exiles-joel-bylos-questions/?utm_source=mmorpg&utm_campaign=homepagebox

    Or maybe it's just common sense. It really is a hit or miss scenario. To err is human? Take it for what you got? 

    This would make an interesting conversation. 
    This is one area of many factors. Overall companies have the business perspective that relies on the numbers, then you have the feedback that impacts such.

    I see the analysis being far more about balance, in on MMO like where you as the dev see 80% of your players are playing on a single area, or using the same build, that's the kind of data you want to know what to balance on updates.

    One of the biggest things they do with this is to balance out the economy, how much money players can earn in-game, the rate, the rare loot drops, etc... GW2 on this aspect is extremely nitpicky, it's how they want not how you want, haha

    Funny thing about old vanilla World of Warcraft:

    Priest manna was always unbearable low in the lower levels making it almost impossible to solo fight or heal in groups.  It was so hard to heal in the lower dungeons.  And that to me, made the lower level dungeons harder than the later ones. 

    Same with Warriors, they seemed to struggle to fight ( however they still had defensive armor ).  Also their abilities were extremely boring at least to me.....I'm  not to sure the real reason no one liked to tank.... Was it because of boring abilities or afraid of leading groups ? 

    Rogues, their clam to fame is stealth, yet it was close to worthless for the first 15 levels. 

    Hunters without their pet for the first 10 levels was hard as hell, when you got your pet EVERYTHING changed, then it became the easiest class to play.



    Now the bigger question was this on purpose to make the game harder or neglect ?  

    Don't get me wrong I loved how the game was a struggle, just asking if it was on purpose or never looked at.




    Funny thing about Everquest 2: 

    They never fixed bugs.  They always simply looked forward with expansions and never looked back at the old !!








  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member LegendaryPosts: 7,765
    Now the bigger question was this on purpose to make the game harder or neglect ?  

    Don't get me wrong I loved how the game was a struggle, just asking if it was on purpose or never looked at.
    Depends on the game, sometimes it's very intentional balance and has reasons behind it, other times if not ignored it might be a just unconsidered impact on some things changed have caused.

    But it's something MMO's are constantly doing, you'll see the players are always pushing on getting the best and most profitable/effective meta-gaming, something that usually causes a reaction from the devs of MMO's like GW2.

    The never ending quest for a well-balanced MMO. \o/
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