Deleted

Ponzini · May 2017

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Prescience · May 2017

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Aethaeryn · May 2017

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Unless they locked it for the reasons @Ponzini mentioned. . .wait. . ponzwhatnow?

Ponzini · May 2017

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Well the guy was posting daily about the same topics and was pretty much a troll/spam at that point. I like how you ignore my explanations though. Again, how is it a scam if there is no buy in? You don't have to pledge or pay any money to take part in the referral program.

Steven is just passionate about this and probably letting the trolls with misinformation get to him a bit. Anyone would be annoyed.

Aethaeryn said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Unless they locked it for the reasons @Ponzini mentioned. . .wait. . ponzwhatnow?

Ponzini is my last name in real life. lol Not related to the scheme.

Rusque · May 2017

AoC is not a scam, everyone should give them lots of money. Go.

Prescience · May 2017

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Well the guy was posting daily about the same topics and was pretty much a troll/spam at that point. I like how you ignore my explanations though. Again, how is it a scam if there is no buy in? You don't have to pledge or pay any money to take part in the referral program.

Steven is just passionate about this and probably letting the trolls with misinformation get to him a bit. Anyone would be annoyed.

Aethaeryn said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Unless they locked it for the reasons @Ponzini mentioned. . .wait. . ponzwhatnow?

Ponzini is my last name in real life. lol Not related to the scheme.

Why would someone refer people to a game and not buy it? Do you see the logic in that?

Ponzini · May 2017

Prescience said:

Aethaeryn said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Unless they locked it for the reasons @Ponzini mentioned. . .wait. . ponzwhatnow?

Ponzini is my last name in real life. lol Not related to the scheme.

Why would someone refer people to a game and not buy it? Do you see the logic in that?

What is your point? The point is that it isn't some MLM scam where you have to buy the product and try pushing it onto people to make money. There is no buy in and no pyramid. Therefore no pyramid scheme.

It is a pretty standard referral system. Get people into the game and get rewards. No downsides for anyone.

Wellspring · May 2017

Is there TLDR version of the OP's post?

Prescience · May 2017

Wellspring said:

Is there TLDR version of the OP's post?

The President of Intrepid made his fortunes off of MLM (Multilevel Marketing) in the form of a "wonder drink" known as Xango.

MLM is highly controversial and in many cases turns out to be a pyramid scheme. Early into the Kickstarter a system of referrals, similar to an MLM business, was introduced for the game.

This seems to be a concern to others given Reddit posts regarding it, a youtube video, and other threads elsewhere.

Ponzini · May 2017

Prescience said:

Wellspring said:

Is there TLDR version of the OP's post?

The President of Intrepid made his fortunes off of MLM (Multilevel Marketing) in the form of a "wonder drink" known as Xango.

MLM is highly controversial and in many cases turns out to be a pyramid scheme. Early into the Kickstarter a system of referrals, similar to an MLM business, was introduced for the game.

This seems to be a concern to others given Reddit posts regarding it, a youtube video, and other threads elsewhere.

Not similar at all. Still avoiding the points I made with your fingers in your ears and eyes closed just so you can consider it a "win". There is no risk of losing money and no pyramid. In what way is it similar. Explain? I am open to be proven wrong.

Jacobin · May 2017

The power of MLM is that by getting random people to sell for them, lies and misinformation can be spread to push quick sales and the company cannot be held directly accountable.

Popular lies spread to drive KS pledges:

- Steven has put in 30M
- The game will be out in 2018
- AoC is a AAA mmo
- The game is already playable internally

It has already been shown that Steven sent out a sales pitch type email to popular youtubers that claim someone made $10 000 dollars on referrals already and they should get on board.

People with zero investment, interest or even basic knowledge of the game can make money spamming links.

This is not MLM, but Steven has taken affiliate marketing to a whole new level by promising to pay out for sales of KS pledges.

The system is so open to blatant abuse that I have little doubt that Steven will receive 100x the backlash of any other project once he starts missing deadlines and there will be a huge amount of demands for refunds. Will he comply?

Slapshot1188 · May 2017

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Well the guy was posting daily about the same topics and was pretty much a troll/spam at that point. I like how you ignore my explanations though. Again, how is it a scam if there is no buy in? You don't have to pledge or pay any money to take part in the referral program.

Steven is just passionate about this and probably letting the trolls with misinformation get to him a bit. Anyone would be annoyed.

Aethaeryn said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Unless they locked it for the reasons @Ponzini mentioned. . .wait. . ponzwhatnow?

Ponzini is my last name in real life. lol Not related to the scheme.

Why would someone refer people to a game and not buy it? Do you see the logic in that?

No joking here but I have literally hundreds of referrals (I'd have to check but it's probably 500 or so by now). I may not play the game but I WILL make money on it. No lying or false pretenses either. I didn't hype the game. Just strategic placement. Heck I was even going to purchase advertising on MMORPG.COM but it was a bit too rich for my taste

Phaserlight · May 2017

Slapshot1188 said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Well the guy was posting daily about the same topics and was pretty much a troll/spam at that point. I like how you ignore my explanations though. Again, how is it a scam if there is no buy in? You don't have to pledge or pay any money to take part in the referral program.

Steven is just passionate about this and probably letting the trolls with misinformation get to him a bit. Anyone would be annoyed.

Aethaeryn said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Unless they locked it for the reasons @Ponzini mentioned. . .wait. . ponzwhatnow?

Ponzini is my last name in real life. lol Not related to the scheme.

Why would someone refer people to a game and not buy it? Do you see the logic in that?

No joking here but I have literally hundreds of referrals (I'd have to check but it's probably 500 or so by now). I may not play the game but I WILL make money on it. No lying or false pretenses either. I didn't hype the game. Just strategic placement. Heck I was even going to purchase advertising on MMORPG.COM but it was a bit too rich for my taste

Good for you!

Jacobin said:

The power of MLM is that by getting random people to sell for them, lies and misinformation can be spread to push quick sales and the company cannot be held directly accountable.

Popular lies spread to drive KS pledges:

- Steven has put in 30M
- The game will be out in 2018
- AoC is a AAA mmo
- The game is already playable internally

It has already been shown that Steven sent out a sales pitch type email to popular youtubers that claim someone made $10 000 dollars on referrals already and they should get on board.

People with zero investment, interest or even basic knowledge of the game can make money spamming links.

This is not MLM, but Steven has taken affiliate marketing to a whole new level by promising to pay out for sales of KS pledges.

The system is so open to blatant abuse that I have little doubt that Steven will receive 100x the backlash of any other project once he starts missing deadlines and there will be a huge amount of demands for refunds. Will he comply?

The bolded text is an idiotic statement. I think my 600 level marketing textbook had maybe one paragraph devoted to Multi-Level Marketing, and it was treated as more of a curiosity than anything else. You are inventing bogeymen to suit your narrative. Furthermore, I hold that any business based on lies is doomed to fail.

"I believe fundamental honesty is the keystone of business" -Harvey Firestone.

Prescience said:

Wellspring said:

Is there TLDR version of the OP's post?

The President of Intrepid made his fortunes off of MLM (Multilevel Marketing) in the form of a "wonder drink" known as Xango.

MLM is highly controversial and in many cases turns out to be a pyramid scheme. Early into the Kickstarter a system of referrals, similar to an MLM business, was introduced for the game.

This seems to be a concern to others given Reddit posts regarding it, a youtube video, and other threads elsewhere.

Citation needed. Spare me late night comedians.

Jacobin · May 2017

Phaserlight said:

The bolded text is an idiotic statement. I think my 600 level marketing textbook had maybe one paragraph devoted to Multi-Level Marketing, and it was treated as more of a curiosity than anything else. You are inventing bogeymen to suit your narrative. Furthermore, I hold that any business based on lies is doomed to fail.

Huh? According to your textbook MLM isn't a thing? Have you been drinking Steven's Xango juice?

Affiliate spamming / payment for promotion is huge problem in the gaming industry that is desperate. Doing it with KS is even worse.

Phaserlight · May 2017

Jacobin said:

Phaserlight said:

The bolded text is an idiotic statement. I think my 600 level marketing textbook had maybe one paragraph devoted to Multi-Level Marketing, and it was treated as more of a curiosity than anything else. You are inventing bogeymen to suit your narrative. Furthermore, I hold that any business based on lies is doomed to fail.

Huh? According to your textbook MLM isn't a thing? Have you been drinking Steven's Xango juice?

Affiliate spamming / payment for promotion is huge problem in the gaming industry that is desperate. Doing it with KS is even worse.

It should be noted that affiliate marketing is a separate and much broader term than Multi-Level Marketing. MLM is a curiosity in that it relates to corporate rewards structure. I'm not saying there is no reason to be concerned about getting involved in MLM or asking tough questions, but implying MLM is successful because it allows false information to spread with no culpability to the "uplines" is patently ludicrous to me. I am also aware that a pyramid scheme (which is illegal) would love nothing more than to be taken for a legitimate MLM scheme, which is why I think it is important to ask tough questions.

All that stated, Ashes has only the vaguest connection with MLM to begin with, although it does have an affiliate referral program. There are probably some good reasons to criticize Ashes, but you hamstring yourself with statements like "The power of MLM..."

Ponzini · May 2017

Slapshot1188 said:

Prescience said:

Aethaeryn said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Unless they locked it for the reasons @Ponzini mentioned. . .wait. . ponzwhatnow?

Ponzini is my last name in real life. lol Not related to the scheme.

Why would someone refer people to a game and not buy it? Do you see the logic in that?

No joking here but I have literally hundreds of referrals (I'd have to check but it's probably 500 or so by now). I may not play the game but I WILL make money on it. No lying or false pretenses either. I didn't hype the game. Just strategic placement. Heck I was even going to purchase advertising on MMORPG.COM but it was a bit too rich for my taste

Holy shit dude. Arent you one of the biggest critics of the game on here? Where were you even posting? Reddit?

Ponzini · May 2017

Jacobin said:

The power of MLM is that by getting random people to sell for them, lies and misinformation can be spread to push quick sales and the company cannot be held directly accountable.

Popular lies spread to drive KS pledges:

- Steven has put in 30M
- The game will be out in 2018
- AoC is a AAA mmo
- The game is already playable internally

It has already been shown that Steven sent out a sales pitch type email to popular youtubers that claim someone made $10 000 dollars on referrals already and they should get on board.

People with zero investment, interest or even basic knowledge of the game can make money spamming links.

This is not MLM, but Steven has taken affiliate marketing to a whole new level by promising to pay out for sales of KS pledges.

The system is so open to blatant abuse that I have little doubt that Steven will receive 100x the backlash of any other project once he starts missing deadlines and there will be a huge amount of demands for refunds. Will he comply?

You just keep reaching and moving that goal post man. Now its not an MLM but its bad because people may have false information about the game because they didn't do enough research? Steven is marketing his game on the cheap. WoW does a referral system almost exactly like this game. Many companies do.

Tiller · May 2017

lol Deleted

Slapshot1188 · May 2017

Ponzini said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Prescience said:

Aethaeryn said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Unless they locked it for the reasons @Ponzini mentioned. . .wait. . ponzwhatnow?

Ponzini is my last name in real life. lol Not related to the scheme.

Why would someone refer people to a game and not buy it? Do you see the logic in that?

No joking here but I have literally hundreds of referrals (I'd have to check but it's probably 500 or so by now). I may not play the game but I WILL make money on it. No lying or false pretenses either. I didn't hype the game. Just strategic placement. Heck I was even going to purchase advertising on MMORPG.COM but it was a bit too rich for my taste

Holy shit dude. Arent you one of the biggest critics of the game on here? Where were you even posting? Reddit?

Ponzini said:

Slapshot1188 said:

Prescience said:

Aethaeryn said:

Prescience said:

Ponzini said:

Did you really just copy/paste that trolls post from the sub-reddit or are you him? There is no buy in to use the referral program so in no way is it a MLM. You don't have to invest any money into the kickstarter to refer someone to the game. How could you possible be scammed? There is no risk of your own money. Plus there is no pyramid. It is amazing how many people just want to attack this game. Do you guys have lives?

Many games use a referral program. This is no different.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AshesofCreation/comments/6d4hlo/ashes_of_creation_pyramid_scheme_concerns_amid/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=AshesofCreation

Well, it's a good thing it was posted here. It seems the moderators locked it at Steven's behest. That's pretty telling.

Unless they locked it for the reasons @Ponzini mentioned. . .wait. . ponzwhatnow?

Ponzini is my last name in real life. lol Not related to the scheme.

Why would someone refer people to a game and not buy it? Do you see the logic in that?

No joking here but I have literally hundreds of referrals (I'd have to check but it's probably 500 or so by now). I may not play the game but I WILL make money on it. No lying or false pretenses either. I didn't hype the game. Just strategic placement. Heck I was even going to purchase advertising on MMORPG.COM but it was a bit too rich for my taste

Holy shit dude. Arent you one of the biggest critics of the game on here? Where were you even posting? Reddit?

I prefer the words skeptic or realist. I remain very skeptical. I'm looking forward to their big producer announcement.

CrazKanuk · May 2017

Phaserlight said:

Jacobin said:

Phaserlight said:

The bolded text is an idiotic statement. I think my 600 level marketing textbook had maybe one paragraph devoted to Multi-Level Marketing, and it was treated as more of a curiosity than anything else. You are inventing bogeymen to suit your narrative. Furthermore, I hold that any business based on lies is doomed to fail.

Huh? According to your textbook MLM isn't a thing? Have you been drinking Steven's Xango juice?

Affiliate spamming / payment for promotion is huge problem in the gaming industry that is desperate. Doing it with KS is even worse.

It should be noted that affiliate marketing is a separate and much broader term than Multi-Level Marketing. MLM is a curiosity in that it relates to corporate rewards structure. I'm not saying there is no reason to be concerned about getting involved in MLM or asking tough questions, but implying MLM is successful because it allows false information to spread with no culpability to the "uplines" is patently ludicrous to me. I am also aware that a pyramid scheme (which is illegal) would love nothing more than to be taken for a legitimate MLM scheme, which is why I think it is important to ask tough questions.

All that stated, Ashes has only the vaguest connection with MLM to begin with, although it does have an affiliate referral program. There are probably some good reasons to criticize Ashes, but you hamstring yourself with statements like "The power of MLM..."

When I read this all I could think of was "The power of MLM compels you!!" Thanks! Now that'll be stuck in my head all day.

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