so what I am saying then is that the past 2 years or so has offered better variety of compelling game play then any time in this history of the universe. So lamenting over the past over one games is being silly.
So what i am saying is:
I disagree with this statement --> "that the past 2 years or so has offered better variety of compelling game play then any time in this history of the universe." It is a personal opinion of yours. Not a statement that is necessarily true in general.
I disagree even with that, I think it can be measured and quantified to be accurate. It would take a lot of work but I do think it can be prooven as factual and not opinion.
BUT..with that said, I am personally convinced that it wouldnt matter to you, you want to lament the past and live as a victim.
EDIT: I should add that my statement on variety work for gaming in general, just if your limited scope is MMOs ONLY.
EDIT 2: I consider a likely position of 'I like dancing in my games and nobody can suggest that any other game feature is more compelling because its a mater of taste' to be dead on 'Special Snowfalkism'. I think suggesting a feature might be more compelling then 'dancing' is something that can be proven, quantified and measured but not easily
So .. in summary ...
you cannot be ars.... errmmm.... bothered to back up your statement with facts, disguising your personal opinion as some kind of general truth.
Furthermore you like to pick out one of many listed traits and call anyone calling for such a trait a "special snowflake" and a "victim". Of course all the while ignoring all the other traits listed, many of those being of a more general nature.
RIIIIGHT.
*** slowly backs away from that person, being careful to make no hasty move ***
Have fun
PS:
Back to the topic of the thread:
I want to amend my statements upthread. The persistence i mentioned should start sometime in mid Beta (or the equivalent of it). Anything before that may still be too much in flux. Too much things and stats and appearance subject to change.
However, these days it is not as easy to discern what phase a game is really in. Many games that spend many years in player-accessible development do not exactly follow the typical pre Alpha --> Alpha --> Beta --> Launch sequence anymore.
I don't think we even know or will ever see a fuuly "released" MMORPG again with so many shades of early access gray these days.
About the only consistent benchmark I can come up with is "has the game released with no more wipes forthcoming and is accepting money from players via b2p, sub or cash shop?"
If so its "launched" in my book.
Screw all of the other disclaimers used to excuse feature incomplete, buggy or otherwise deficient games, even if they don't charge full price. (just another smoke screen)
Players want to pay for this great, but no more excuses, call them the crap they are.
If anyone is still working at Funcom from the Ashes of Creation....er I mean Age of Conan days they must marvel at what the can get away with in Exiles vs the fury they received back in the day for AOCs "poor launch" which was miles above what they and others can get away with now.
How ever did it come to this? People have lowered their standards... Bah.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't think we even know or will ever see a fuuly "released" MMORPG again with so many shades of early access gray these days.
About the only consistent benchmark I can come up with is "has the game released with no more wipes forthcoming and is accepting money from players via b2p, sub or cash shop?"
If so its "launched" in my book.
Screw all of the other disclaimers used to excuse feature incomplete, buggy or otherwise deficient games, even if they don't charge full price. (just another smoke screen)
Players want to pay for this great, but no more excuses, call them the crap they are.
If anyone is still working at Funcom from the Ashes of Creation....er I mean Age of Conan days they must marvel at what the can get away with in Exiles vs the fury they received back in the day for AOCs "poor launch" which was miles above what they and others can get away with now.
How ever did it come to this? People have lowered their standards... Bah.
I think for those who insist the game be an MMO and above all else that 'massive' multiplayer experience being the top most requirement thus 'trumping' all other features are by doing so missing out on very literally the most interesting time in gaming history.
its unfortunate
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
My theory - catering to the "Instant gratification crowd".
The types that will quickly move on to the next "hot" hyped thing - no matter if YOUR game is excellent or a pile of excrement. They will move on after two months tops. The Korean style. Where a dozen new MMOs launch every year. Just to feed the ever hungry maw of the nomadic gamer horde.
As a dev you have to assess wether its better to improve/Bug-fix an existing game that the horde has already left behind OR to work on the next horde MMO victim. And letting the bare-bone gnawed-on carcass of the old MMO slow rot for a few years before you send in the Free-2-Play vultures for a second, final feasting.
My theory - catering to the "Instant gratification crowd".
The types that will quickly move on to the next "hot" hyped thing - no matter if YOUR game is excellent or a pile of excrement. They will move on after two months tops. The Korean style. Where a dozen new MMOs launch every year. Just to feed the ever hungry maw of the nomadic gamer horde.
As a dev you have to assess wether its better to improve/Bug-fix an existing game that the horde has already left behind OR to work on the next horde MMO victim. And letting the bare-bone gnawed-on carcass of the old MMO slow rot for a few years before you send in the Free-2-Play vultures for a second, final feasting.
Have fun
I dont know what your talking about.
I am talking about early access games, not Archeage
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
My theory - catering to the "Instant gratification crowd".
The types that will quickly move on to the next "hot" hyped thing - no matter if YOUR game is excellent or a pile of excrement. They will move on after two months tops. The Korean style. Where a dozen new MMOs launch every year. Just to feed the ever hungry maw of the nomadic gamer horde.
As a dev you have to assess wether its better to improve/Bug-fix an existing game that the horde has already left behind OR to work on the next horde MMO victim. And letting the bare-bone gnawed-on carcass of the old MMO slow rot for a few years before you send in the Free-2-Play vultures for a second, final feasting.
Have fun
I dont know what your talking about.
Ive been reading this topic and it did occur to me that that is exactly what is going on here. You have no idea what he is talking about. Because you fail to read what hes typing properly.
I mean..how else would you answer "name me a game similar to SWG" with "you are victimizing"?
My theory - catering to the "Instant gratification crowd".
The types that will quickly move on to the next "hot" hyped thing - no matter if YOUR game is excellent or a pile of excrement. They will move on after two months tops. The Korean style. Where a dozen new MMOs launch every year. Just to feed the ever hungry maw of the nomadic gamer horde.
As a dev you have to assess wether its better to improve/Bug-fix an existing game that the horde has already left behind OR to work on the next horde MMO victim. And letting the bare-bone gnawed-on carcass of the old MMO slow rot for a few years before you send in the Free-2-Play vultures for a second, final feasting.
Have fun
I dont know what your talking about.
Ive been reading this topic and it did occur to me that that is exactly what is going on here. You have no idea what he is talking about. Because you fail to read what hes typing properly.
I mean..how else would you answer "name me a game similar to SWG" with "you are victimizing"?
I think I was pretty clear when I mentioned 'if one is only looking at MMOs' but it is web forums to be fair.
regarding the victimizing statement if one holds to one game namely because its ONLY difference in what you can get now is 1. sci fi with 2. dancing. then yeah...its being a victim. all other features exist in other games (and some mmos) and together mmos + games + private server games the variety is larger then EVER IN THE HISTORY OF GAMING...except maybe dancing.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Games like Portalarium Shroud of the Avatar that went persistent no more wipes July 2016 are abusing the early access label. Shady companies like these know they've failed but won't admit it and will be in a perpetual early access until they have to close down. They do this to milk the few backers they have left. It's a pathetic and shady way to run a game company in my opinion. When a game is persistent it's released no matter them hiding behind the early access label, thankfully gamers aren't as stupid as these guys hoped and bailed on them after we saw what a scam it is.
I don't think we even know or will ever see a fuuly "released" MMORPG again with so many shades of early access gray these days.
About the only consistent benchmark I can come up with is "has the game released with no more wipes forthcoming and is accepting money from players via b2p, sub or cash shop?"
If so its "launched" in my book.
Screw all of the other disclaimers used to excuse feature incomplete, buggy or otherwise deficient games, even if they don't charge full price. (just another smoke screen)
Players want to pay for this great, but no more excuses, call them the crap they are.
If anyone is still working at Funcom from the Ashes of Creation....er I mean Age of Conan days they must marvel at what the can get away with in Exiles vs the fury they received back in the day for AOCs "poor launch" which was miles above what they and others can get away with now.
How ever did it come to this? People have lowered their standards... Bah.
I think for those who insist the game be an MMO and above all else that 'massive' multiplayer experience being the top most requirement thus 'trumping' all other features are by doing so missing out on very literally the most interesting time in gaming history.
its unfortunate
I have never been a computer "gamer."
Back in the 80s when I started the first game I fell in love with was a RPG called Dungeons of Daggaroth on the Trash (Tandy) 80.
I literally saw the sun rise far too often and once a moved to a PC Bards Tale, Wizardry and Might and Magic series cemented my love of the RPG genre.
While there were occasional daliances for the most part I exclusively played only RPGs.
Bought my children every console/game imaginable but nothing on them ever held my interest for long
Was a bit late to the party but after playing Lineage 1 in 2001followed by DAOC I found my current love, MMORPGs and pretty much they are all I "play."
You don't play in virtual worlds, you inhabit them.
Pickings have been a bit slim for awhile, especially if you don't love the most popular design.
Light on the horizon of course, assuming any ever get "finished" (whatever that means anymore)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I don't think we even know or will ever see a fuuly "released" MMORPG again with so many shades of early access gray these days.
About the only consistent benchmark I can come up with is "has the game released with no more wipes forthcoming and is accepting money from players via b2p, sub or cash shop?"
If so its "launched" in my book.
Screw all of the other disclaimers used to excuse feature incomplete, buggy or otherwise deficient games, even if they don't charge full price. (just another smoke screen)
Players want to pay for this great, but no more excuses, call them the crap they are.
If anyone is still working at Funcom from the Ashes of Creation....er I mean Age of Conan days they must marvel at what the can get away with in Exiles vs the fury they received back in the day for AOCs "poor launch" which was miles above what they and others can get away with now.
How ever did it come to this? People have lowered their standards... Bah.
I think for those who insist the game be an MMO and above all else that 'massive' multiplayer experience being the top most requirement thus 'trumping' all other features are by doing so missing out on very literally the most interesting time in gaming history.
its unfortunate
I have never been a computer "gamer."
Back in the 80s when I started the first game I fell in love with was a RPG called Dungeons of Daggaroth on the Trash (Tandy) 80.
I literally saw the sun rise far too often and once a moved to a PC Bards Tale, Wizardry and Might and Magic series cemented my love of the RPG genre.
While there were occasional daliances for the most part I exclusively played only RPGs.
Bought my children every console/game imaginable but nothing on them ever held my interest for long
Was a bit late to the party but after playing Lineage 1 in 2001followed by DAOC I found my current love, MMORPGs and pretty much they are all I "play."
You don't play in virtual worlds, you inhabit them.
Pickings have been a bit slim for awhile, especially if you don't love the most popular design.
Light on the horizon of course, assuming any ever get "finished" (whatever that means anymore)
I think the take away is a HUGE surplus of deep, variety, compelling, virtual worlds being built right now is that for those who refuse to play early access they can at least be assured that those positive changes to the industry are coming. Kerbal Space Program is now finally out, Space Engineers is almost out, 7 Days to Die is coming close to beta testing. yup.
The only problem for those folks, is that most of those folks also tend to look at hype meters and sites like Gamespot to tell them what to buy and the unfortunt thing for them is that very often the hype meeter by the time these games come out are no longer loud.
Kerbal Space Program is a key example, once they got to released status there really wasnt much PR hyper hype hype over it. most people excited about it already owned a copy.
So those sitting on the side lines waiting for a Gamespot, PC Gamer, Polygon approved hype game that is released AND not in early access status very bluntly miss out completely.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I think the players are sending the wrong message with the EA stuff....Like others here have said, why complete a game and spend valuable time squashing bugs when players are handing money over for games that are barely even a concept? It really does seem to be a dangerous slope we are heading down.
I think the players are sending the wrong message with the EA stuff....Like others here have said, why complete a game and spend valuable time squashing bugs when players are handing money over for games that are barely even a concept? It really does seem to be a dangerous slope we are heading down.
well that very question brings up some very interesting philosophical questions, the answers of which support the concept of gaming as a service. Here goes the questions.
1. if people are buying it despite incompleteness and despite bugs then it is to be assumed they like it. Should that alone not be the only vote that really matters. meaning 'I like X, I find X worth Y dollars' peroid..end of conversation. things like 'does not contain' or 'broken in some areas' may not apply to the end result statement.
2. does a lack of bugs make for a better quality overall? no...rarely ever.
3. does a lack of bugs make a game more fun? usually not.
4. does a developer fullfilling his promise make a game better, more enjoyable or of higher value then if he doesnt? no it dosent. (example: as a developer I could promise you a big button and if you hit the button it says your a winner...that is 100% the game 100% the promise. does that make it a better game then 7 days to die because they havent put in VR support? no)
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
I think the players are sending the wrong message with the EA stuff....Like others here have said, why complete a game and spend valuable time squashing bugs when players are handing money over for games that are barely even a concept? It really does seem to be a dangerous slope we are heading down.
well that very question brings up some very interesting philosophical questions, the answers of which support the concept of gaming as a service. Here goes the questions.
1. if people are buying it despite incompleteness and despite bugs then it is to be assumed they like it. Should that alone not be the only vote that really matters. meaning 'I like X, I find X worth Y dollars' peroid..end of conversation. things like 'does not contain' or 'broken in some areas' may not apply to the end result statement.
2. does a lack of bugs make for a better quality overall? no...rarely ever.
3. does a lack of bugs make a game more fun? usually not.
4. does a developer fullfilling his promise make a game better, more enjoyable or of higher value then if he doesnt? no it dosent. (example: as a developer I could promise you a big button and if you hit the button it says your a winner...that is 100% the game 100% the promise. does that make it a better game then 7 days to die because they havent put in VR support? no)
Seriously, your viewpoints are like the dark side of the force or something, that you have them amazes me.
If people are happy buying crap, let them.... bah, proving people sometimes need to be protected from themselves.....
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
If a person is truly playing it to help testing I would that is a valid reason to play a game very early on. Sadly, my experience is that most early access players are there for their own self gratification with the worst being those outright planning methods to out pace other players due to their knowledge of the game (and exploits) upon release. Most of these players burn out.
I prefer a game to more polished and am far more interesting in testing the game as a more complete package and where my feedback is most useful anyway.
An example of this is Project Gorgon. As a former AC player I have some hype toward this game as it is the closest thing to a spiritual successor to AC as we will likely ever see. It may perhaps even attract some old school EQ and Vanguard in it's more updated, old school mmorpg approach. I look forward to entering a fantasy world to explore simply built for those wanting ... to enter a fantasy world to explore.
It fits this example perfectly as it has been fully playable in an alpha state for many months now. I have no interest in playing it yet however. I am willing to hold off so the enjoyment is increased as it becomes more polished and moves toward a more traditional beta state. I've set my entry point on it's Steam early access release date.
I've also been able to alpha test Camelot Unchained for quite some time now but have openly stated I will not play until Beta 1. If I am not committed to being a proper alpha tester I won't waste a developers time.
Just have to forget that one on the MMO genre, it's simple, when we talk SP and just online games, sure this stuff is not a problem, but for one MMO you should never play it seriously before release.
If you do you're in to get derped out at wipes and other issues due the very nature of slow progression. Even online games that aren't literal MMO's like Fortnite everyone stops playing because the wipes vs slow progression overkill it.
I think the players are sending the wrong message with the EA stuff....Like others here have said, why complete a game and spend valuable time squashing bugs when players are handing money over for games that are barely even a concept? It really does seem to be a dangerous slope we are heading down.
well that very question brings up some very interesting philosophical questions, the answers of which support the concept of gaming as a service. Here goes the questions.
1. if people are buying it despite incompleteness and despite bugs then it is to be assumed they like it. Should that alone not be the only vote that really matters. meaning 'I like X, I find X worth Y dollars' peroid..end of conversation. things like 'does not contain' or 'broken in some areas' may not apply to the end result statement.
2. does a lack of bugs make for a better quality overall? no...rarely ever.
3. does a lack of bugs make a game more fun? usually not.
4. does a developer fullfilling his promise make a game better, more enjoyable or of higher value then if he doesnt? no it dosent. (example: as a developer I could promise you a big button and if you hit the button it says your a winner...that is 100% the game 100% the promise. does that make it a better game then 7 days to die because they havent put in VR support? no)
Seriously, your viewpoints are like the dark side of the force or something, that you have them amazes me.
If people are happy buying crap, let them.... bah, proving people sometimes need to be protected from themselves.....
because of my view points on what is important to a game I can say that over the past 3 years for me I have had the best gaming experiences of my entire gaming life which is about 37 years long.
I also state often that this era of gaming is the best ever.
hardly dark...
I would suggest thinking about my points with more of an open mind, the putting the game experience first really does improve your quality of life. and to be frank, in my opinion if you dont put the game experience first and foremost of importance then you should look to a differnt hobby
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Just have to forget that one on the MMO genre, it's simple, when we talk SP and just online games, sure this stuff is not a problem, but for one MMO you should never play it seriously before release.
If you do you're in to get derped out at wipes and other issues due the very nature of slow progression. Even online games that aren't literal MMO's like Fortnite everyone stops playing because the wipes vs slow progression overkill it.
doesnt really matter
-
can you loose hours of work in a single player game because of a wipe (which does happen)?
yes
the only difference between a single player game and an MMO technically is the number of players connected.
For some 'single player games' like Life is Fudeal the only difference between it and an MMO is the number of player and who controls the server. So all concerns about early access apply to both single player and MMO.
I just suggest to people to look at the game expreince. Meaning, is the game fun? yes..then continue else stop.
The game is NOT features the developer said is coming but is not in the game, that is an element that is outside of the game experience. non-game breaking bugs are also not really that important to basically choose a less intresting game over a more intresting game becasue a feature you never use has a bug in it you have to hunt to find.
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
If anyone is still working at Funcom from the Ashes of Creation....er I mean Age of Conan days they must marvel at what the can get away with in Exiles vs the fury they received back in the day for AOCs "poor launch" which was miles above what they and others can get away with now.
How ever did it come to this? People have lowered their standards... Bah.
What is sad is that Funcom would have been fine with Age of Conan when it released, if they had stopped development at level 60 and worked on bug hunting what they had. They had enough content for a proper game to level 65; too bad the level cap was 80. If they had stopped at 60 or 65 and focused on bug squashing and developing mid level raids, they would have had the Wow wounder that their initial sales indicated they would be.
Instead they released a pile o' steaming poo, and instead of fixing it for the nearly two million people that bought a box, they took the money and invested into TSW.
Honestly, if you want to blame anyone for the poor condition of modern game releases, look at what Funcom did with AoC, making a BOATLOAD of money and running with it...
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
If anyone is still working at Funcom from the Ashes of Creation....er I mean Age of Conan days they must marvel at what the can get away with in Exiles vs the fury they received back in the day for AOCs "poor launch" which was miles above what they and others can get away with now.
How ever did it come to this? People have lowered their standards... Bah.
What is sad is that Funcom would have been fine with Age of Conan when it released, if they had stopped development at level 60 and worked on bug hunting what they had. They had enough content for a proper game to level 65; too bad the level cap was 80. If they had stopped at 60 or 65 and focused on bug squashing and developing mid level raids, they would have had the Wow wounder that their initial sales indicated they would be.
Instead they released a pile o' steaming poo, and instead of fixing it for the nearly two million people that bought a box, they took the money and invested into TSW.
Honestly, if you want to blame anyone for the poor condition of modern game releases, look at what Funcom did with AoC, making a BOATLOAD of money and running with it...
I read this and cant help but think of my early teens when we played table top Dungeons and Dragons and level 20 was considered OP and usually represented several months if not years of game play
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
so what I am saying then is that the past 2 years or so has offered better variety of compelling game play then any time in this history of the universe. So lamenting over the past over one games is being silly.
So what i am saying is:
I disagree with this statement --> "that the past 2 years or so has offered better variety of compelling game play then any time in this history of the universe." It is a personal opinion of yours. Not a statement that is necessarily true in general.
I disagree even with that, I think it can be measured and quantified to be accurate. It would take a lot of work but I do think it can be prooven as factual and not opinion.
BUT..with that said, I am personally convinced that it wouldnt matter to you, you want to lament the past and live as a victim.
EDIT: I should add that my statement on variety work for gaming in general, just if your limited scope is MMOs ONLY.
EDIT 2: I consider a likely position of 'I like dancing in my games and nobody can suggest that any other game feature is more compelling because its a mater of taste' to be dead on 'Special Snowfalkism'. I think suggesting a feature might be more compelling then 'dancing' is something that can be proven, quantified and measured but not easily
So .. in summary ...
you cannot be ars.... errmmm.... bothered to back up your statement with facts, disguising your personal opinion as some kind of general truth.
Furthermore you like to pick out one of many listed traits and call anyone calling for such a trait a "special snowflake" and a "victim". Of course all the while ignoring all the other traits listed, many of those being of a more general nature.
RIIIIGHT.
*** slowly backs away from that person, being careful to make no hasty move ***
Have fun
PS:
Back to the topic of the thread:
I want to amend my statements upthread. The persistence i mentioned should start sometime in mid Beta (or the equivalent of it). Anything before that may still be too much in flux. Too much things and stats and appearance subject to change.
However, these days it is not as easy to discern what phase a game is really in. Many games that spend many years in player-accessible development do not exactly follow the typical pre Alpha --> Alpha --> Beta --> Launch sequence anymore.
I don't think we even know or will ever see a fuuly "released" MMORPG again with so many shades of early access gray these days.
About the only consistent benchmark I can come up with is "has the game released with no more wipes forthcoming and is accepting money from players via b2p, sub or cash shop?"
If so its "launched" in my book.
Screw all of the other disclaimers used to excuse feature incomplete, buggy or otherwise deficient games, even if they don't charge full price. (just another smoke screen)
Players want to pay for this great, but no more excuses, call them the crap they are.
If anyone is still working at Funcom from the Ashes of Creation....er I mean Age of Conan days they must marvel at what the can get away with in Exiles vs the fury they received back in the day for AOCs "poor launch" which was miles above what they and others can get away with now.
How ever did it come to this? People have lowered their standards... Bah.
Not entirely true. Age of Conans launch was miles above that of Anarchy Online back in the day. Now if you want to talk about a REALLY shitty launch....
Problem these days is that games don't properly launch at all anymore, they go from promotional beta/ea to just being out there in some kind of ever so slightly supported limbo.
/Cheers, Lahnmir
'the only way he could nail it any better is if he used a cross.'
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
can you loose hours of work in a single player game because of a wipe (which does happen)?
yes
the only difference between a single player game and an MMO technically is the number of players connected.
For some 'single player games' like Life is Fudeal the only difference between it and an MMO is the number of player and who controls the server. So all concerns about early access apply to both single player and MMO.
I just suggest to people to look at the game expreince. Meaning, is the game fun? yes..then continue else stop.
The game is NOT features the developer said is coming but is not in the game, that is an element that is outside of the game experience. non-game breaking bugs are also not really that important to basically choose a less intresting game over a more intresting game becasue a feature you never use has a bug in it you have to hunt to find.
Yeah but one MMO, until you reach end-game, is per norm over 100 hours, the slow progression makes it so people care waaaaaay more about losing that on the nature of wipes within betas/alphas of MMO's.
I always see it as, try it, poke around what it offers but never play it seriously until it's released. I think if you do then all your progress RIP the repetitive process of doing it all over again would just make me loose interest.
can you loose hours of work in a single player game because of a wipe (which does happen)?
yes
the only difference between a single player game and an MMO technically is the number of players connected.
For some 'single player games' like Life is Fudeal the only difference between it and an MMO is the number of player and who controls the server. So all concerns about early access apply to both single player and MMO.
I just suggest to people to look at the game expreince. Meaning, is the game fun? yes..then continue else stop.
The game is NOT features the developer said is coming but is not in the game, that is an element that is outside of the game experience. non-game breaking bugs are also not really that important to basically choose a less intresting game over a more intresting game becasue a feature you never use has a bug in it you have to hunt to find.
Yeah but one MMO, until you reach end-game, is per norm over 100 hours, the slow progression makes it so people care waaaaaay more about losing that on the nature of wipes within betas/alphas of MMO's.
I always see it as, try it, poke around what it offers but never play it seriously until it's released. I think if you do then all your progress RIP the repetitive process of doing it all over again would just make me loose interest.
I have 848 hours into 7 days to die. That said that is a point but as someone who plays early access and knows the community of people who play early access i can tell you they will play. yes they will know there progress will be wiped and that they might not make max level before release but they will play. more over, people have GOT to stop it with is stupidity of trying to get to end game. its silly, if the game is not fun for you in mid game, its likely not going to be fun for you in end game.
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I have to laugh at any old MMO gamer saying standards have been lowered. No games today get away with horrendous launches like we had back then. Most early access games today launch with a more intact more stable product than games like SWG, EVE, AO etc... did back then. That's just a hilarious statement.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
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About the only consistent benchmark I can come up with is "has the game released with no more wipes forthcoming and is accepting money from players via b2p, sub or cash shop?"
If so its "launched" in my book.
Screw all of the other disclaimers used to excuse feature incomplete, buggy or otherwise deficient games, even if they don't charge full price. (just another smoke screen)
Players want to pay for this great, but no more excuses, call them the crap they are.
If anyone is still working at Funcom from the Ashes of Creation....er I mean Age of Conan days they must marvel at what the can get away with in Exiles vs the fury they received back in the day for AOCs "poor launch" which was miles above what they and others can get away with now.
How ever did it come to this? People have lowered their standards... Bah.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I think for those who insist the game be an MMO and above all else that 'massive' multiplayer experience being the top most requirement thus 'trumping' all other features are by doing so missing out on very literally the most interesting time in gaming history. its unfortunate
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My theory - catering to the "Instant gratification crowd".
The types that will quickly move on to the next "hot" hyped thing - no matter if YOUR game is excellent or a pile of excrement. They will move on after two months tops. The Korean style. Where a dozen new MMOs launch every year. Just to feed the ever hungry maw of the nomadic gamer horde.
As a dev you have to assess wether its better to improve/Bug-fix an existing game that the horde has already left behind OR to work on the next horde MMO victim. And letting the bare-bone gnawed-on carcass of the old MMO slow rot for a few years before you send in the Free-2-Play vultures for a second, final feasting.
Have fun
I am talking about early access games, not Archeage
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I mean..how else would you answer "name me a game similar to SWG" with "you are victimizing"?
but it is web forums to be fair.
regarding the victimizing statement if one holds to one game namely because its ONLY difference in what you can get now is 1. sci fi with 2. dancing. then yeah...its being a victim. all other features exist in other games (and some mmos) and together mmos + games + private server games the variety is larger then EVER IN THE HISTORY OF GAMING...except maybe dancing.
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Back in the 80s when I started the first game I fell in love with was a RPG called Dungeons of Daggaroth on the Trash (Tandy) 80.
I literally saw the sun rise far too often and once a moved to a PC Bards Tale, Wizardry and Might and Magic series cemented my love of the RPG genre.
While there were occasional daliances for the most part I exclusively played only RPGs.
Bought my children every console/game imaginable but nothing on them ever held my interest for long
Was a bit late to the party but after playing Lineage 1 in 2001followed by DAOC I found my current love, MMORPGs and pretty much they are all I "play."
You don't play in virtual worlds, you inhabit them.
Pickings have been a bit slim for awhile, especially if you don't love the most popular design.
Light on the horizon of course, assuming any ever get "finished" (whatever that means anymore)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Kerbal Space Program is now finally out, Space Engineers is almost out, 7 Days to Die is coming close to beta testing. yup.
The only problem for those folks, is that most of those folks also tend to look at hype meters and sites like Gamespot to tell them what to buy and the unfortunt thing for them is that very often the hype meeter by the time these games come out are no longer loud.
Kerbal Space Program is a key example, once they got to released status there really wasnt much PR hyper hype hype over it. most people excited about it already owned a copy.
So those sitting on the side lines waiting for a Gamespot, PC Gamer, Polygon approved hype game that is released AND not in early access status very bluntly miss out completely.
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1. if people are buying it despite incompleteness and despite bugs then it is to be assumed they like it. Should that alone not be the only vote that really matters. meaning 'I like X, I find X worth Y dollars' peroid..end of conversation. things like 'does not contain' or 'broken in some areas' may not apply to the end result statement.
2. does a lack of bugs make for a better quality overall? no...rarely ever.
3. does a lack of bugs make a game more fun? usually not.
4. does a developer fullfilling his promise make a game better, more enjoyable or of higher value then if he doesnt? no it dosent.
(example: as a developer I could promise you a big button and if you hit the button it says your a winner...that is 100% the game 100% the promise. does that make it a better game then 7 days to die because they havent put in VR support? no)
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If people are happy buying crap, let them.... bah, proving people sometimes need to be protected from themselves.....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I prefer a game to more polished and am far more interesting in testing the game as a more complete package and where my feedback is most useful anyway.
An example of this is Project Gorgon. As a former AC player I have some hype toward this game as it is the closest thing to a spiritual successor to AC as we will likely ever see. It may perhaps even attract some old school EQ and Vanguard in it's more updated, old school mmorpg approach. I look forward to entering a fantasy world to explore simply built for those wanting ... to enter a fantasy world to explore.
It fits this example perfectly as it has been fully playable in an alpha state for many months now. I have no interest in playing it yet however. I am willing to hold off so the enjoyment is increased as it becomes more polished and moves toward a more traditional beta state. I've set my entry point on it's Steam early access release date.
I've also been able to alpha test Camelot Unchained for quite some time now but have openly stated I will not play until Beta 1. If I am not committed to being a proper alpha tester I won't waste a developers time.
You stay sassy!
If you do you're in to get derped out at wipes and other issues due the very nature of slow progression. Even online games that aren't literal MMO's like Fortnite everyone stops playing because the wipes vs slow progression overkill it.
I also state often that this era of gaming is the best ever.
hardly dark...
I would suggest thinking about my points with more of an open mind, the putting the game experience first really does improve your quality of life. and to be frank, in my opinion if you dont put the game experience first and foremost of importance then you should look to a differnt hobby
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can you loose hours of work in a single player game because of a wipe (which does happen)? yes
the only difference between a single player game and an MMO technically is the number of players connected. For some 'single player games' like Life is Fudeal the only difference between it and an MMO is the number of player and who controls the server. So all concerns about early access apply to both single player and MMO. I just suggest to people to look at the game expreince. Meaning, is the game fun? yes..then continue else stop. The game is NOT features the developer said is coming but is not in the game, that is an element that is outside of the game experience. non-game breaking bugs are also not really that important to basically choose a less intresting game over a more intresting game becasue a feature you never use has a bug in it you have to hunt to find.
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Instead they released a pile o' steaming poo, and instead of fixing it for the nearly two million people that bought a box, they took the money and invested into TSW.
Honestly, if you want to blame anyone for the poor condition of modern game releases, look at what Funcom did with AoC, making a BOATLOAD of money and running with it...
The world is going to the dogs, which is just how I planned it!
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Problem these days is that games don't properly launch at all anymore, they go from promotional beta/ea to just being out there in some kind of ever so slightly supported limbo.
/Cheers,
Lahnmir
Kyleran on yours sincerely
'But there are many. You can play them entirely solo, and even offline. Also, you are wrong by default.'
Ikcin in response to yours sincerely debating whether or not single-player offline MMOs exist...
'This does not apply just to ED but SC or any other game. What they will get is Rebirth/X4, likely prettier but equally underwhelming and pointless.
It is incredibly difficult to design some meaningfull leg content that would fit a space ship game - simply because it is not a leg game.
It is just huge resource waste....'
Gdemami absolutely not being an armchair developer
I always see it as, try it, poke around what it offers but never play it seriously until it's released. I think if you do then all your progress RIP the repetitive process of doing it all over again would just make me loose interest.
That said that is a point but as someone who plays early access and knows the community of people who play early access i can tell you they will play. yes they will know there progress will be wiped and that they might not make max level before release but they will play.
more over, people have GOT to stop it with is stupidity of trying to get to end game. its silly, if the game is not fun for you in mid game, its likely not going to be fun for you in end game.
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"classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer
Try a MUD today at http://www.mudconnect.com/For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
cash shop? in early access? extreemly rare
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