Larger goals, less chain quest

delete5230 · March 2017

In what I'm seeing Pantheon and VRealms are two steps ahead of what I'm about to say.... I think !

People complain about quest, and the need for something new, but never a solution. Well the solution may be easer than we think.

Everyone is sick of kill ten rats and bring the tails back......... So how about kill ten rats way on the other side of the mountain, that's if you dare going to that spot. Make everything an extreme adventure.

This problem with doing fifty short quest showed its ugly face when I was playing LOTRO with my friend a few months back. Back and forth with turn in's, this was no fun.......... thinking back in my years of mmo's, this made it impossible to want to play with strangers.

About a year ago and playing Vanilla WoW, we got a PUG to do the stronghold quest in Redridge. Our group had so much fun we decided to continue questing. As well oiled as we were, it soon fell apart because we were scattered on our short quest goals.... Suddenly are group was not so well oiled !

Keep chain quest out of it...... It sucks when someone didn't do part four and the group can't do part five because of it.

Caseyx · March 2017

I agree, it felt more like work with no real benefit other than extra experience doing a million little quests. I didn't pay attention to the quest text/backstory, just click thru it as fast as possible because it didn't matter and move on.

Wizardry · March 2017

Yep choice or more reason to do quests is the way to go.

Systems...systems depth.I don't mind if we repeat the FACTION fame ideas but do it better than what i saw in the past.There is nothing wrong with killing stuff,i man what else are we going to get,not like a developer can create a full on real living world,this is why we aim for scenarios that require less like OLDER realms,days of deserts and swords and shields.A modern setting would require,sky scrapers,trucks,taxi cabs,hockey/football/baseball arenas,schools,libraries etc etc not a viable option to make change.
So we are stuck with rats and bears we have to accept i,you can't change that,maybe in 50 years but not possible right now.
So then it becomes about what we can do with the limited worlds assets we have.Do you want to kill 10 rats to get fame with a leather crafting npc that will aid you with recipes or kill 10 rats to get fame wit hthe ORCS so you can get recipes and more quests from that faction.Kill 10 rats for yourself to craft the mats.

Doesn't end,yet more,well because i have been busy gaming and see things lol,i don't hangout in Wow instances all day 24/7 like most.You can kill rats to gain fame for your nation,that can open up reward tiers and missions that can offer maps or technology/skills whatever.

You can off the rat mats to a secret society that offers a different currency,perhaps secret items you have to discover their use,like maybe a special recipe or craft or a map to hidden treasure than can randomize locations or maybe they want you to deliver items to other secret socities that you must gain favor with .Then the secret is those items are nice to keep,do you continue to deliver them or just keep the item for your self?
I could go on and on,there is no limit to creativity,if you want to accept a simple game of rush to level 100 then 24/7 instance bosses,go for it,i am not playing that crap.

centkin · March 2017

Quests were funny in EQ1 with the expansions. If you saved enough wisp stones and greater wisp stones, you could skip right to about level 52 or 53 when Kunark came out.

Kajidourden · March 2017

This. FFXI had too few, imo but I would rather that than the modern themepark 10,000 quests bullshit.

Give me a quest that will take a week and can be segmented where I can log off at almost any time and log back in to pick up where I left off. Make it span 4-9 levels and then give me the last one upon completion.

Less quests, more xp. Don't waste my time with filler BS, just get to the point and tell your story.

Kyleran · March 2017

I'd be surprised if this game went the route of a quest grinder.

svann · April 2017

People like epic quests, but they dont like chain quests.
But epic quests are by their nature solo chained quests that require a group or raid.

Nanfoodle · April 2017

IMO there should be all sorts of quest, all optional and give different types of rewards. From experience to items or faction increases. I don't want to know ahead what the reward is unless I have decided to look it up online. VR Devs have already said that there won't be the standard quest flags.

Nightbringe1 · April 2017

DMKano said:

How about just make quests completely optional like EQ1?

Were there quests in EQ1 - yes. Did you have to do them - nope.

Player xp and gear progression was not dependent on questing.

The only quest I did was epic weapon

The easiest way to do this is to not give any or minimal xp for quests, just give coin or mats.

Problem solved.

Moving rats to the other side of the mountain doesnt solve the problem at all, as you are still enforcing a quest reward progression system.

Quests should be for faction, monetary reward, or special/unique items.

They should not be a primary means of leveling or obtaining gear.

That said, I have no issues with the "Kill 10 rats" quests in EQ. They were entirely optional and provided a way for a new player to earn a little coin by providing the town with pest control services. A reasonable reward for providing a needed in-game service.

Hawkaya399 · May 2017

I agree with this. I've seen it b4 and know its troubles. You're invovled in a quest chain and you're shooting from one spot to another. There's no efficient way for someone else to join you because you're both doing your own separate chains and the game doesn't give an easy alternative. (Some may, but not this one.)

Is the quest system like this the whole way? There might be a lot of mini-quest chains early on to introduce a player to the game, but later on there're more group opportunities. Don't wnat to put the horse before the cart, right?

EQ1's group situation was so mcuh easier in this regard. Quests weren't the primary way to get experience. It was more grindy though.

The other problem I've had in modern MMORPGs with quests is when I'm in a group doing a group quest and they're blitzing it. There's no time to smell the flowers or even understand what's going on. It's so anti-fun in terms of the quest. May as well throw out the questing altogether in these cases because bleh. About the only thing it does is forces the group to at least move around and not stay in one spot.

Longer term group quests with small story/lore doses would allow us to more easily follow along with the quest, while also blitzing and whatever. Because lets face it most groups are going to try to blitz for efficiency purpose.

Thebeasttt · May 2017

It's beyond all reason that MMO gamers aren't sick of quests in 2017. By this point the word quest should be a curse word. Pantheon would do well to minimize all forms of questing

svann · May 2017

The problem with chain quests is if there isnt a good reason for a group to go to the spot if they arent on the chain quest. Solution is to make the area interesting whether you are on the quest or not. That way you find a group going to the area you need to be in and just do it while you are there. No begging people to come help you do a quest where no one wanted to go.

Dullahan · May 2017

No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because you don't like tomatoes doesn't mean you stop eating.

Quests are great when they are well thought out and no just autogenerated garbage that has you running around doing menial tasks to check off boxes.

As long as Pantheon focuses on quality over quantity with quests, we should be fine.

Kajidourden · May 2017

While I would personally probably enjoy this, at the same time I recognize that you would run into a lot of people who are all over the map in terms of what quest etc they're on...I think it would turn into a shitshow

Mendel · May 2017

Rather than blaming chain quests, I think the issue with quests that impacts groups the most is that quests are envisioned, developed and designed as individual pursuits. A quest has historically been a series of personal objectives with personal rewards. What I think would be a step forward would be to have group-oriented quests with group rewards. A group-oriented quest is accepted for the entire group, which exists as a pseudo-character, and requires the presence of all the group members to progress the task.

Maybe this is what VR means when they've talked about incentives to build groups. I could see that group quests could be a big reason to keep the same group together over several sessions.

I can imagine that group quests with group rewards would not drop one per player. Instead, it would drop items from a special group reward loot table, and the group would be encouraged to distribute the loot as normal items. Special rewards, like titles, would drop as an intermediate object (scrolls, parchment and the like) and would confer the final reward upon consumption.

But, I've not seen evidence of this, nor any hints of this, in Pantheon. Maybe this is another of those things which they haven't bothered to show yet. My own suspicion is that details haven't been determined for whatever VR intends as encouraging groups.

I would like to see something other than personal quests with personal rewards. That model has gotten a bit stale.

Sovrath · May 2017

Thebeasttt said:

It's beyond all reason that MMO gamers aren't sick of quests in 2017. By this point the word quest should be a curse word. Pantheon would do well to minimize all forms of questing

I was thinking of this the other day. I've come to the point that the word "questing" starts to make me angry. Not in any serious way but it definitely makes me roll my eyes.

waynejr2 · May 2017

Dullahan said:

No reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Just because you don't like tomatoes doesn't mean you stop eating.

Quests are great when they are well thought out and no just autogenerated garbage that has you running around doing menial tasks to check off boxes.

As long as Pantheon focuses on quality over quantity with quests, we should be fine.

Also, not everything should be called a quest. Ex: Too many red fox eating the farmers chickens, use a bounty like the real world does. Ex: Military objective = mission. Ex: Chop down 10 tree and make firewood = job.

lahnmir · May 2017

I think questing is so undefined that by focusing a bit more you could make a world look more real, give players a proper choice in what kind of activity to engage and make stuff more fun.

Let me explain.

-Why not call quests that have you kill X amount of said creature Hunts? Let every settlement have a Hunters Guild where you can pick up hunts to partake in in the vicinity. It makes sense location and world wise and for those that want to farm on monsters a bit there is a clear direction in where to go.

-Why not call quests where you have to deliver goods from A to B errands? You could pick these up from traders and wandering merchants. They are focused on traveling and exploring for players that want to do that.

-And let actual Quests be multi step adventures, let them have a complete story and take up a lot of time. Do it like TSW but a bit longer. Instead of a 100+ questlog you would have 1 or 2 quests that would take you the better part of a day. But you sure as hell would remember them and feel like you truly accomplished something.

Just some ideas but I think that by distinguishing stuff like this you get a more real and rewarding experience. Of course all of it needs to be optional and on an equal level when it comes to rewards. A bit more non combat stuff would be great too. Treasure hunting, exploring, gathering, crafting etc.

I don't mind quests or quest chains but they need to have meaning and make sense.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

waynejr2 · May 2017

lahnmir said:

I think questing is so undefined that by focusing a bit more you could make a world look more real, give players a proper choice in what kind of activity to engage and make stuff more fun.

Let me explain.

-Why not call quests that have you kill X amount of said creature Hunts? Let every settlement have a Hunters Guild where you can pick up hunts to partake in in the vicinity. It makes sense location and world wise and for those that want to farm on monsters a bit there is a clear direction in where to go.

-Why not call quests where you have to deliver goods from A to B errands? You could pick these up from traders and wandering merchants. They are focused on traveling and exploring for players that want to do that.

-And let actual Quests be multi step adventures, let them have a complete story and take up a lot of time. Do it like TSW but a bit longer. Instead of a 100+ questlog you would have 1 or 2 quests that would take you the better part of a day. But you sure as hell would remember them and feel like you truly accomplished something.

Just some ideas but I think that by distinguishing stuff like this you get a more real and rewarding experience. Of course all of it needs to be optional and on an equal level when it comes to rewards. A bit more non combat stuff would be great too. Treasure hunting, exploring, gathering, crafting etc.

I don't mind quests or quest chains but they need to have meaning and make sense.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

I think there can be some variation in there. Take the A to B delivery quest (AKA FedEx Quest). Cleric sends Paladin on a quest to acquire the Holy Sword of Antioch from the Mad Chef Ramsay and then deliver the sword to the worthy Paladin Billy. The delivery part is FedEx Quest with it front loaded with adventure and closed off with a potential role playing choice of giving the Holy Sword of Antioch to Billy or keeping the sword for himself (AKA for the greater good).

Mendel · May 2017

lahnmir said:

I think questing is so undefined that by focusing a bit more you could make a world look more real, give players a proper choice in what kind of activity to engage and make stuff more fun.

Let me explain.

-Why not call quests that have you kill X amount of said creature Hunts? Let every settlement have a Hunters Guild where you can pick up hunts to partake in in the vicinity. It makes sense location and world wise and for those that want to farm on monsters a bit there is a clear direction in where to go.

-Why not call quests where you have to deliver goods from A to B errands? You could pick these up from traders and wandering merchants. They are focused on traveling and exploring for players that want to do that.

-And let actual Quests be multi step adventures, let them have a complete story and take up a lot of time. Do it like TSW but a bit longer. Instead of a 100+ questlog you would have 1 or 2 quests that would take you the better part of a day. But you sure as hell would remember them and feel like you truly accomplished something.

Just some ideas but I think that by distinguishing stuff like this you get a more real and rewarding experience. Of course all of it needs to be optional and on an equal level when it comes to rewards. A bit more non combat stuff would be great too. Treasure hunting, exploring, gathering, crafting etc.

I don't mind quests or quest chains but they need to have meaning and make sense.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

So, you're advocating throwing a thesaurus at the issue? I don't see how that helps getting a "more real and rewarding experience", unless these different labels come complete with different combat mechanisms. If success is a matter of 'hit rat A with sword B', the changed name does nothing to increase my immersion.

In a game trying to focus on group play, why have traditional quests, anyway? After all, most quests have been designed for a solo player with individual rewards. That doesn't really promote grouping. If anything, it encourages solo play. It seems a bit counter-productive to have individual quests in a game focusing on group play.

Scorchien · May 2017

From everyhting we ahve been fed so far realtive to Pantheon , i am getting the feeling that the Questing will be akin to Vanguards ...Which could be a good thing ...

There were so many areas that were group required to Quest thru and took many many days to do some of them ..

And i would love to see something like Diplomacy make a return .. was such a great feature in vanguard

Wizardry · May 2017

I believe in a grouping game but not FORCED via fake looking objective scenarios.
Example one of my biggest peeves is forced grouping because a dungeon is so littered with mobs,you can't breathe without running into one or 20.Point being,sure it might be tougher to get to the other side of the mountain to do a quest,but WHY is it tougher?Is it tougher just because the dev just jotted down some higher level mobs?Or is it perhaps a watering hole where some scary mobs go to drink or get relief from the desert heat?My point is that there is a BIG difference from designing a world and just generating a game.I can get a generated game anywhere,they are a dime a dozen,a hand crafted world,now that takes effort and polish and should be commended.

Can't a developer design a map that looks realistic with mobs in certain areas because it makes sense and not just there to give us something to kill.Or a dungeon with some Boss at the end of the tunnel that the ONLY reason anyone goes in is to kill the Boss for some loot.That is where deep systems come in,you do quests for favor with perhaps your King or nation or town to get some specific currency or favor to get better quests/rewards.

Bottom line is that the constant lean towards some Boss at the end of a tunnel needs to stop.Like WHY is the Boss at the end of the tunnel,why not the start or why is he even in that tunnel?

The ENTIRE design concepts/systems need to be good or it ruins the entire game. A perfect example was Vanguard,i get one pixel to close to a fort and the entire fort came running at the exact same time,it looks retarded FAKE and turns me right off.I need to see stuff that just "makes sense",realistic sense.

waynejr2 · May 2017

Mendel said:

lahnmir said:

I think questing is so undefined that by focusing a bit more you could make a world look more real, give players a proper choice in what kind of activity to engage and make stuff more fun.

Let me explain.

-Why not call quests that have you kill X amount of said creature Hunts? Let every settlement have a Hunters Guild where you can pick up hunts to partake in in the vicinity. It makes sense location and world wise and for those that want to farm on monsters a bit there is a clear direction in where to go.

-Why not call quests where you have to deliver goods from A to B errands? You could pick these up from traders and wandering merchants. They are focused on traveling and exploring for players that want to do that.

-And let actual Quests be multi step adventures, let them have a complete story and take up a lot of time. Do it like TSW but a bit longer. Instead of a 100+ questlog you would have 1 or 2 quests that would take you the better part of a day. But you sure as hell would remember them and feel like you truly accomplished something.

Just some ideas but I think that by distinguishing stuff like this you get a more real and rewarding experience. Of course all of it needs to be optional and on an equal level when it comes to rewards. A bit more non combat stuff would be great too. Treasure hunting, exploring, gathering, crafting etc.

I don't mind quests or quest chains but they need to have meaning and make sense.

/Cheers,
Lahnmir

So, you're advocating throwing a thesaurus at the issue? I don't see how that helps getting a "more real and rewarding experience", unless these different labels come complete with different combat mechanisms. If success is a matter of 'hit rat A with sword B', the changed name does nothing to increase my immersion.

In a game trying to focus on group play, why have traditional quests, anyway? After all, most quests have been designed for a solo player with individual rewards. That doesn't really promote grouping. If anything, it encourages solo play. It seems a bit counter-productive to have individual quests in a game focusing on group play.

No wonder we have problems with so little imagination. Did you put all your thinking into it and came up with it is a simple renaming of the word quest? Is that your best effort here?

Scorchien · May 2017

Wizardry said:

I believe in a grouping game but not FORCED via fake looking objective scenarios.
Example one of my biggest peeves is forced grouping because a dungeon is so littered with mobs,you can't breathe without running into one or 20.Point being,sure it might be tougher to get to the other side of the mountain to do a quest,but WHY is it tougher?Is it tougher just because the dev just jotted down some higher level mobs?Or is it perhaps a watering hole where some scary mobs go to drink or get relief from the desert heat?My point is that there is a BIG difference from designing a world and just generating a game.I can get a generated game anywhere,they are a dime a dozen,a hand crafted world,now that takes effort and polish and should be commended.

Can't a developer design a map that looks realistic with mobs in certain areas because it makes sense and not just there to give us something to kill.Or a dungeon with some Boss at the end of the tunnel that the ONLY reason anyone goes in is to kill the Boss for some loot.That is where deep systems come in,you do quests for favor with perhaps your King or nation or town to get some specific currency or favor to get better quests/rewards.

Bottom line is that the constant lean towards some Boss at the end of a tunnel needs to stop.Like WHY is the Boss at the end of the tunnel,why not the start or why is he even in that tunnel?

The ENTIRE design concepts/systems need to be good or it ruins the entire game. A perfect example was Vanguard,i get one pixel to close to a fort and the entire fort came running at the exact same time,it looks retarded FAKE and turns me right off.I need to see stuff that just "makes sense",realistic sense.

Someone doesnt know how to break a spawn and pull , i lvled 3 toons to max and countless other alts in Vanguard ...... Never experienced what you described

Thebeasttt · May 2017

Even at Vanguard launch every single class could solo to cap. Not sure why people are still pretending that game wasn't awful but any attempt to recreate it is folly. If you really love Vanguard so much go join the other 5 people trying to make the emulator.

Sovrath · May 2017

Thebeasttt said:

Even at Vanguard launch every single class could solo to cap. Not sure why people are still pretending that game wasn't awful but any attempt to recreate it is folly. If you really love Vanguard so much go join the other 5 people trying to make the emulator.

Not sure what you are on about but I subscribed to Vanguard right up to the announcement they were closing it.

Recreate it being folly? I strongly suspect that if this game has the general spirit, the world, the interesting classes reminiscent of Vanguard then it will most likely be on of a very few mmo's I play.

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Larger goals, less chain quest

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