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Overwatch League coming 2017- taking e-sports to the next level

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  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,758
    13lake said:
    Overwatch is child's play compared to dota or cs, anyone claiming otherwise has one of the following : an agenda, unhealthy obsession against dota/cs, unhealthy obsession for a competitive game that's not dota or cs.

    Whether they never could get good enough in dota or cs, or if they have some wierd stuff to prove/disprove is irrelevant to their extreme lack of objectivity in the matter.
    That's a common perception, but can you explain why you think that way?
  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,650
    13lake said:
    Overwatch is child's play compared to dota or cs, anyone claiming otherwise has one of the following : an agenda, unhealthy obsession against dota/cs, unhealthy obsession for a competitive game that's not dota or cs.

    Whether they never could get good enough in dota or cs, or if they have some wierd stuff to prove/disprove is irrelevant to their extreme lack of objectivity in the matter.
    That's a common perception, but can you explain why you think that way?
    I think that if you are a good player in games like CoD, UT, Q3, BF, etc. and you decide to try out OW, you will have a good time in that game even if you get to play with more skilled and experienced players. You run around, do some damage, get some frags,...

    If you decide to jump in CS, you will get totally crushed over and over without even firing a single shot when you get to play with more skilled players. You would be getting killed before you get to even see the enemy. You would feel like it is not even possible for the players to kill you like that without cheating. When you meet an enemy in CS, the fight usually lasts up to 1 sec. You either headshot him within 1 sec after you see him or you are dead.

    Just a short 7 sec video for illustration. 

     

    This video lasts 7 sec just because he did not hit him with the first shot. This shot was done with AWP sniper rifle which always kills with 1 hit unless you hit enemy's legs. Nevertheless, there are also other automatic weapons that kill with 1 hit when you do a head shot even if the enemy is wearing a helmet (e.g. AK47). The players who have good skills kill with automatic rifles like AK47 the same way as the guy in the video with the AWP. They just push the trigger (=prefire) before they even see you or you see them.

    Comparing the games like those I mentioned above with CS is, for me, like comparing Need for Speed with Assetto Corsa or Battlefield with Arma. You need crazy skills to be competitive in CS.
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,758
    edited November 2016
    13lake said:
    Overwatch is child's play compared to dota or cs, anyone claiming otherwise has one of the following : an agenda, unhealthy obsession against dota/cs, unhealthy obsession for a competitive game that's not dota or cs.

    Whether they never could get good enough in dota or cs, or if they have some wierd stuff to prove/disprove is irrelevant to their extreme lack of objectivity in the matter.
    That's a common perception, but can you explain why you think that way?
    I think that if you are a good player in games like CoD, UT, Q3, BF, etc. and you decide to try out OW, you will have a good time in that game even if you get to play with more skilled and experienced players. You run around, do some damage, get some frags,...

    If you decide to jump in CS, you will get totally crushed over and over without even firing a single shot when you get to play with more skilled players. You would be getting killed before you get to even see the enemy. You would feel like it is not even possible for the players to kill you like that without cheating. When you meet an enemy in CS, the fight usually lasts up to 1 sec. You either headshot him within 1 sec after you see him or you are dead.

    Just a short 7 sec video for illustration. 

     

    This video lasts 7 sec just because he did not hit him with the first shot. This shot was done with AWP sniper rifle which always kills with 1 hit unless you hit enemy's legs. Nevertheless, there are also other automatic weapons that kill with 1 hit when you do a head shot even if the enemy is wearing a helmet (e.g. AK47). The players who have good skills kill with automatic rifles like AK47 the same way as the guy in the video with the AWP. They just push the trigger (=prefire) before they even see you or you see them.

    Comparing the games like those I mentioned above with CS is, for me, like comparing Need for Speed with Assetto Corsa or Battlefield with Arma. You need crazy skills to be competitive in CS.
    I don't see how a short TTK = skillful, but regardless, Widomaker can do the same thing (although she has to hit your head to do it, not just anywhere but the legs...).

    But what you're describing is just exploiting predictable patterns.  Surely an experienced player would be able to avoid walking into bullets, no?

    Predicting opponent behavior is a skill, but I don't see why you think it's CS exclusive.

    Anywhere here's some widowmaker gameplay



    The thing is, it's not just the twitch/predictive gameplay that makes Overwatch skillful.  You also have to be strategic and play a team role like in MOBAs.

    It's true as an individual, you don't have to be good at aiming to be good at Overwatch because you can play characters that don't require much aim (if any at all, really).  But for a team to be successful on a competitive level, they're going to need at least a couple great hitscan players.
    Post edited by holdenhamlet on
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    I dont think this will work out the way you think it will.  Looks and sounds good on paper but application just not meshing.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,170
    13lake said:
    Overwatch is child's play compared to dota or cs, 
    And that is how it will break through mainstream.... 

    You see... If the broad audience can´t make heads from tails over what is a good play and why.. They will lose interest very fast....

    But child´s play....  Nah... CS:GO is about as basic as a shooter goes... pick gun, point gun, pull trigger. The so called "big boys" status comes from being about as forgiving as gravity. That sets a insane skill requirement but does not equal complexity. After all.. Trying to bowl a strike with only one pin is a lot more difficult than ten if the bowling ball explodes if you grab it even the slightest way wrong... 10 pin is still far more complex. =P 

    See the difference? 


    As for Blizzards new push.... they pretty much just slapped the rest of the ESport biz in the face with about 2 foot of meat, asking them what they have done to advance the field. Ballsy, maybe in the end futile but still ballsy. I really look forward to see where it goes, and no matter what it will mark a permanent shift in how esport is done. 

    Tawess gaming

    Tawess soapbox

    This have been a good conversation

  • coretex666coretex666 Member EpicPosts: 3,650
    13lake said:
    Overwatch is child's play compared to dota or cs, anyone claiming otherwise has one of the following : an agenda, unhealthy obsession against dota/cs, unhealthy obsession for a competitive game that's not dota or cs.

    Whether they never could get good enough in dota or cs, or if they have some wierd stuff to prove/disprove is irrelevant to their extreme lack of objectivity in the matter.
    That's a common perception, but can you explain why you think that way?
    I think that if you are a good player in games like CoD, UT, Q3, BF, etc. and you decide to try out OW, you will have a good time in that game even if you get to play with more skilled and experienced players. You run around, do some damage, get some frags,...

    If you decide to jump in CS, you will get totally crushed over and over without even firing a single shot when you get to play with more skilled players. You would be getting killed before you get to even see the enemy. You would feel like it is not even possible for the players to kill you like that without cheating. When you meet an enemy in CS, the fight usually lasts up to 1 sec. You either headshot him within 1 sec after you see him or you are dead.

    Just a short 7 sec video for illustration. 

     

    This video lasts 7 sec just because he did not hit him with the first shot. This shot was done with AWP sniper rifle which always kills with 1 hit unless you hit enemy's legs. Nevertheless, there are also other automatic weapons that kill with 1 hit when you do a head shot even if the enemy is wearing a helmet (e.g. AK47). The players who have good skills kill with automatic rifles like AK47 the same way as the guy in the video with the AWP. They just push the trigger (=prefire) before they even see you or you see them.

    Comparing the games like those I mentioned above with CS is, for me, like comparing Need for Speed with Assetto Corsa or Battlefield with Arma. You need crazy skills to be competitive in CS.
    I don't see how a short TTK = skillful, but regardless, Widomaker can do the same thing (although she has to hit your head to do it, not just anywhere but the legs...).

    But what you're describing is just exploiting predictable patterns.  Surely an experienced player would be able to avoid walking into bullets, no?

    Predicting opponent behavior is a skill, but I don't see why it's CS exclusive.

    Anywhere here's some widowmaker gameplay






    I think I am unable to explain it properly. As I said, I am convinced that if you spent 1k hours in competitive CSGO, your opinion would change.

    I also agree with what tawess said that CS is as basic as a shooter can get. 


  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Member RarePosts: 1,607
    Overwatch lends itself well for less competitive E-Sport competitions but it will never reach CS  or LoL level of E-Sport.

    Why do you think that?  With teams representing cities, it seems like it will be moving far beyond CS or LoL, at least when it comes to public perception.

    Most people don't know anything about CS or LoL.  If there's an Overwatch team representing your city, you're going to find out about it and maybe even go see a match at your local venue.

    If you mean "skill-wise", I wholeheartedly disagree.  Overwatch combines the skill of both CS and LoL, meaning it's much more skill-based than either of them.
    Your joking right? Overwatch is a cake walk compared to competitive CS
    Hell even TF2 has a higher skill cap.
    Blizzard has not denied this either. They said they wanted to make a competitive team shooter that was more accessible for the non hardcore. That is one of the reasons why they have sold so well.
     
    Nope, not joking.  To be a good McCree, you need the same kind of aim as you do in CS.  PLUS you need to be good with abilities AND have team coordination.

    With CS you just frag out and you're good.

    You're right that Blizzard did a phenomenal job of making the game accessible and fun for casuals.  But that in no way precludes top level play, or implies that top level play is anything at all like casual play.
    lol as an ex competitive MGS player, in my professional opinion I disagree. As does Blizzard. 
    LOL yeah clearly Blizzard doesn't see Overwatch as a competitive game.  That's why they're launching the most ambitious e-sport league ever next year.
    Noone said anything about them not making a competitive game suited for their fans. It was whether or not it could compete with the big boys ;)
    The "big boys" being games that don't require team play and coordination, or ones like LoL that don't require much aim at all?

    Alrighty then.
    League or CS doesn't require teamwork? League doesn't have skill shots? Overwatch is probably going to be seen sort of like HoTS is in the e-spots scene; a more casual-friendly version of what's already available. 
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,758
    edited November 2016
    Overwatch lends itself well for less competitive E-Sport competitions but it will never reach CS  or LoL level of E-Sport.

    Why do you think that?  With teams representing cities, it seems like it will be moving far beyond CS or LoL, at least when it comes to public perception.

    Most people don't know anything about CS or LoL.  If there's an Overwatch team representing your city, you're going to find out about it and maybe even go see a match at your local venue.

    If you mean "skill-wise", I wholeheartedly disagree.  Overwatch combines the skill of both CS and LoL, meaning it's much more skill-based than either of them.
    Your joking right? Overwatch is a cake walk compared to competitive CS
    Hell even TF2 has a higher skill cap.
    Blizzard has not denied this either. They said they wanted to make a competitive team shooter that was more accessible for the non hardcore. That is one of the reasons why they have sold so well.
     
    Nope, not joking.  To be a good McCree, you need the same kind of aim as you do in CS.  PLUS you need to be good with abilities AND have team coordination.

    With CS you just frag out and you're good.

    You're right that Blizzard did a phenomenal job of making the game accessible and fun for casuals.  But that in no way precludes top level play, or implies that top level play is anything at all like casual play.
    lol as an ex competitive MGS player, in my professional opinion I disagree. As does Blizzard. 
    LOL yeah clearly Blizzard doesn't see Overwatch as a competitive game.  That's why they're launching the most ambitious e-sport league ever next year.
    Noone said anything about them not making a competitive game suited for their fans. It was whether or not it could compete with the big boys ;)
    The "big boys" being games that don't require team play and coordination, or ones like LoL that don't require much aim at all?

    Alrighty then.
    League or CS doesn't require teamwork? League doesn't have skill shots? Overwatch is probably going to be seen sort of like HoTS is in the e-spots scene; a more casual-friendly version of what's already available. 
    League requires the same kind of teamwork as DOTA that i'm referring to, which is coordinating ults and abilities.

    They both have a few skillshots, but aim is autolocked...

    The difference is, Overwatch is a perpetual teamfight.

    Here's my experience with ranked in Overwatch this season that shows how important teamplay is- I got out of placements at around 2600 (not great, but I'm new to FPS games and my aim is not terrific).  I then proceeded to plummit to about 1700.  I had to really re-evaluate what I was doing and I came to some conclusions:

    1.  I was not being a good team player.  I was trying to carry, but not only am I not a great hitscan carry, I was taking hitscan heroes away from people that might be better, and who also might be really bad on tank or support roles.

    2. My attitude was really bad.  I blamed others for their mistakes and got tilted easily.  Now I try really hard not to focus on others mistakes (they happen, but I make mistakes too).  I do my best to coordinate and shot-call, and less "telling others what they need to do differently".

    Making these adjustments has allowed me to get my rating back up to 2450 and I think I'll be able to climb a lot higher.  Sometimes I carry, and sometimes the team carries me.  Making sure the team has a good tank or support is just as important as having a good carry as properly timed support or tank ults win fights.

    "I think I am unable to explain it properly. As I said, I am convinced that if you spent 1k hours in competitive CSGO, your opinion would change."

    Listen, maybe I was incorrect saying there is more skill required for Overwatch than CS.  That's probably only true if one were to master all of the heroes, and nobody does that.

    Aim is obviously paramount in CS and I'm sure there is plenty of mindgaming.

    But in response, I just say that you might have a different opinion if you spent 1k hours in competitive Overwatch.  There is actually a pretty high skill cap to most of the heroes and the fact that you play with different people playing with and against constantly changing compositions of heroes means you constantly have to adapt, both to your teammates playstyles and the ones of your opponents.

    I haven't seen anyone mention the fact that Overwatch uniquely allows you to swap heroes when you die.  This constant shuffle of trying to counter the opponents pick is unique to Overwatch.

    Anyway, mainly I'm just wholeheartedly disagreeing with the accepted notion that Overwatch is casual at the top.  It certainly is at the bottom, and the design allows for that, but I really truly believe that they amazingly also designed a very intricate and skill-rewarding gameplay at the top.

    If it was a casual game, pro teams wouldn't need to skrim against eachother constantly.  Top players would not consistently be in top 500 across multiple accounts (that kid Mendokusaii I mentioned has like 4 accounts in top 500), because any casual would just be able to casually beat them.

    I think I know where the perception comes from.  I watched Summit1g (a CS:GO steamer) try to get into Overwatch.  He played mainly McCree (1 of the main hitscan heroes), and had some success, but started to get frustrated by the power of ults or people countering him with certain hero picks.  

    Overwatch is thoughtfully designed so that you can't just shoot everybody dead.  Hitscan is important (very important), but it's not the only or even most important factor if you win or lose.  Ult management, teamwork, and proper ability usage together are more important.

    As a longtime CS:GO player, this was pretty much unnacceptable to him as he felt his good aim wasn't rewarded enough, so he's back to CS:GO.

    That's fine, and I think there's plenty of room for both games, but I do not think he's correct in then concluding that the game is casual.  Just because aim is not paramount doesn't make it casual (DOTA and LOL are not considered casual games at the top and aim is auto-locked in those games).
    Post edited by holdenhamlet on
  • CoatedCoated Member UncommonPosts: 477
    I think overwatch has some chances. They really need to balance the game though and ULTs + some characters need to be toned down a lot.

    I would take away any ULT/ability that makes you lose control of your character. Every ULT should be along the line of Hanzo's ult. It will kill you if you stand in it, but it's not completely disabling your actions or abilities.
    Abilities like Ana's sleep and McCree's stun need to be nerfed.
  • BlazeyerBlazeyer Member UncommonPosts: 562
    edited November 2016
    I don't know why someone is seriously trying to say CS:GO and OW are on the same level of complexity and skill necessity. That's a joke. OW is a casual game, and it does that very well. And no, it will never be close to the same level as CS, DOTA, or LoL as an esport. Just because they have local teams does not mean more people will get interested. Why would someone tune in to watch a random team from a random state that clearly wouldn't even be considered top 50 in the world? It's not like a real sport where you grow up with a culture to "support the team". The game itself also needs many changes before it's stable to watch. I'm so tired of watching "competitive" where it's just lucio, rein, ana, zarya, mccree, random damage vs lucio, rein, ana, zarya, mccree, random damage. Do you think casual viewers are going to tune in weekly just to see the same characters battle over and over? They need to be quicker with new characters (Ana came out in mid july). They need a way to make party setups not so predictable and boring. HOTS is a great game and deserves a much higher spot in the esport echelon, but the moba market is saturated. OW has a chance, but the game is probably as popular now as it will get. They're too slow making necessary changes to push it over the top.
  • laxielaxie Member RarePosts: 1,052
    To chip in on the OW/CS discussion.

    Overwatch has very generous hitboxes. The weapons also deal less damage overall. This definitely leads to more forgiving gameplay. At a professional level, you can walk into an enemy and walk out. Characters can contest points without being killed instantly. In CounterStrike, you die on sight, with a tiny timeframe to kill the enemy first.

    I don't think that's necessarily a problem though. As long as the team game is complex enough, Overwatch is definitely a viable esport. League of Legends is more forgiving in comparison to CounterStrike, yet the team game makes up for it.

    What they need to rethink is the spectator mode. That will be the deal breaker, more than anything else. CounterStrike is very single player oriented - it comes down to straight forward exchanges between single players. As such, it makes sense to spectate it from the player's perspective. Overwatch relies on abilities and ultimates - it comes down to "team moments". From watching the OW championships, I feel like player perspective does not do it justice at all. You only ever see a fraction of the match.

    The free floating cameras are also awkward. It's easy to get lost in what's going on. Blizzard will need to do a lot of research on spectating. You need something that captures the team game and positioning, while still staying true to the game itself.

    This may prove to be impossible and be the demise of the esport, more so than forgiving aim.
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,758
    edited November 2016
    laxie said:
    To chip in on the OW/CS discussion.

    Overwatch has very generous hitboxes. The weapons also deal less damage overall. This definitely leads to more forgiving gameplay. At a professional level, you can walk into an enemy and walk out. Characters can contest points without being killed instantly. In CounterStrike, you die on sight, with a tiny timeframe to kill the enemy first.

    I don't think that's necessarily a problem though. As long as the team game is complex enough, Overwatch is definitely a viable esport. League of Legends is more forgiving in comparison to CounterStrike, yet the team game makes up for it.

    What they need to rethink is the spectator mode. That will be the deal breaker, more than anything else. CounterStrike is very single player oriented - it comes down to straight forward exchanges between single players. As such, it makes sense to spectate it from the player's perspective. Overwatch relies on abilities and ultimates - it comes down to "team moments". From watching the OW championships, I feel like player perspective does not do it justice at all. You only ever see a fraction of the match.

    The free floating cameras are also awkward. It's easy to get lost in what's going on. Blizzard will need to do a lot of research on spectating. You need something that captures the team game and positioning, while still staying true to the game itself.

    This may prove to be impossible and be the demise of the esport, more so than forgiving aim.
    Long time-to-kill is forgiving for the person being shot, but it certainly isn't forgiving for the person shooting.  You have to do much more than just shoot a guy once "anywhere but the legs" to kill them.

    As for spectator, they have already done a lot to improve the spectator cam, and are continuing to do so.  I agree it is a very important issue, but it's a really tough nut to crack.

    "OW is a casual game"

    Basketball can be a casual game on the playground.  But it can also be highly competitive.

    I think the main issue people are having is they're looking at one aspect of Overwatch and comparing it to an entire other game.  CS:GO has much more emphasis on individual hitscan play and mindgaming.  LoL/DOTA/Starcrat 2 has more emphasis on micromanagement.

    Overwatch has a new blend of gameplay that blends elements from multiple games.  But that doesn't make it inherently casual imo.

    "I'm so tired of watching "competitive" where it's just lucio, rein, ana, zarya, mccree, random damage vs lucio, rein, ana, zarya, mccree, random damage."

    Sombra directly counters lucio, zarya and rein.  She's going to shake up the Meta hardcore soon.


    Post edited by holdenhamlet on
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,758
    edited November 2016
    Double post  :p

    On a side note, I'm thinking of changing my avatar.  People seem to be equating me having a tracer avatar to being a mindless fanboy.  My avatar has been "the chick I'm playing" in the last 3 games I've been into, but in this case it seems to be a credibility liability. 
  • kreakrea Member UncommonPosts: 227
    edited March 2017
    tawess said:
    13lake said:
    Overwatch is child's play compared to dota or cs, 
    And that is how it will break through mainstream.... 

    You see... If the broad audience can´t make heads from tails over what is a good play and why.. They will lose interest very fast....

    But child´s play....  Nah... CS:GO is about as basic as a shooter goes... pick gun, point gun, pull trigger. The so called "big boys" status comes from being about as forgiving as gravity. That sets a insane skill requirement but does not equal complexity. After all.. Trying to bowl a strike with only one pin is a lot more difficult than ten if the bowling ball explodes if you grab it even the slightest way wrong... 10 pin is still far more complex. =P 

    See the difference? 


    As for Blizzards new push.... they pretty much just slapped the rest of the ESport biz in the face with about 2 foot of meat, asking them what they have done to advance the field. Ballsy, maybe in the end futile but still ballsy. I really look forward to see where it goes, and no matter what it will mark a permanent shift in how esport is done. 

    Agree with this yeh you dont only rely on your aim but their are alot of other factors you need to learn so saying its kid league is just wrong.

    Playing fps games since first counterstrike and i am realy loving all the aspect this game offers and i think it may even be harder since their are so many things to learn / counter classes etc.  ( sorry for bad english)
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,758
    https://rlewisreports.com/blizzard-landed-first-two-big-names-overwatch-league/

    "Sources close to Activision Blizzard’s upcoming Overwatch League (OWL) have informed us that they have already secured the involvement of two big US sporting brands. It has been communicated internally that the owners of the New England Patriots and Miami Dolphins, Robert Kraft and Stephen Ross, have both purchased slots in multi-million dollar deals."

    Looks like the first couple of cities are on-board.
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