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Skill/Spell Distribution - Skill/Spell Diviserty & Hot Bar Sets

EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,238
I unfortunately couldn't finish Pantheon's live stream via Cohh to ask this question, but I didn't hear this question asked or answered yet. I know Joppa frequents the forum and if you read this, would appreciate an answer if capable! Thanks :)

I was quiet curious how Skill/Spells per class would be distributed while leveling? Would we get new skills/spells every level? Every 4-5 levels?

How will Pantheon tackle Skill/Spell Diversity? Will it work in ranks via EQ/Vanguard? Also, how many different skills/spells can we expect in a melee and a caster skill/spell library?

Question to the community: How many different skills/spells would you like to see each class have in their full library?

I am assuming we will have different Hot Bar sets we can Save and Load out of combat for various situations like we did in EQ? Also, I assume 12 slots will be the limit correct?

Question to the community: Do you like the idea of a limited hot bar with the idea of an open class system, meaning that you have full access to all of your classes spells as long as you can obtain them? Via EQ?

I appreciate your answers in advanced! Thanks!

Comments

  • Curt2013Curt2013 Member UncommonPosts: 66
    I personally would only like around 12-20 skills used in combat with different tiers of each or most skills / abilities. Also would like a small number of reactive abilities like vanguard had. These would not include group or self buffs tho.

    Really don't like the limited hot bar but it sounds like Pantheon is going to have it that way from listening to their streams.

    Can't wait to play this game for sure tho.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited May 2017
    Right now it's 10 slots. I'd like to see a pretty good variety. Probably similar to EQ casters or VG. As long as they stick to the roles and don't go beyond it, I will be happy.

    Might vary how many we see per class. A caster may have more utility buffs, vision spells, summon spells, and tons of other random odds and ends like we saw in EQ. A melee may have less of that, but as long as the combat aspect doesn't feel limited, that's fine with me.

    The limited hotbar is imperative, imo. Having played games with unlimited like Vanguard and EQ2, and others that were limited, I feel having to plan ahead and utilize the proper sets is important. I don't like the idea of having to memorize 30 keybinds, nor do I like when you can pile everything into a macro because combat is that predictable.

    Abilities should be impactful. Not just in the impact of the effect or damage, but the amount of resources you must commit. A fight should be won or lost by using the wrong ability at the wrong time. I don't just mean failing to land a taunt or heal either. Each skill should be important, and not using that proper debuff or stun at the right time because it was on a macro should have bad consequences. Likewise, when abilities have higher resource costs, using them at the wrong time or playing inefficiently should lead to failure as well.

    If a) you're abilities are so bland that you can use them whenever, or b) combat doesn't demand you use them thoughtfully, something is terribly wrong and combat will suck.


  • Curt2013Curt2013 Member UncommonPosts: 66

    Dullahan said:
    The limited hotbar is imperative, imo. Having played games with unlimited like Vanguard and EQ2, and others that were limited, I feel having to plan ahead and utilize the proper sets is important. I don't like the idea of having to memorize 30 keybinds, nor do I like when you can pile everything into a macro because combat is that predictable.


    I get that we don't want abilities to feel bland, but I would think alot of us especially the lazy peeps after

    grinding for 10 hours or more wouldn't mind the convenience of a limited macro system. I also would prefer to

    not have to set up my hot bar differently every now and then or wait for other peeps to as well. I could go

    either way tbh just hoping its not a chore to set up your hot bar differently every hour.


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,722
    I will play the game they give me in this area. Only area in skills I care for is being able to play my class role early on. From the streams thats about level 10.
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230
    I think 6 constantly used spells/abilities is enough.  
    After that there can be maybe 12 more available to use at a moments notice but they should not be used all the time.  Not saying the spell bar needs to be increased but even eq had aa's, combat abilities, and discs that we use sometimes not all the time.

    Now.  Autoattack - yea or nay?
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,238
    Looks like I found my answer sort of in the FAQ section of their website, I'll post below...

    "You may be limited to a subset of your abilities for the next
    encounter, causing you to have to intelligently plan ahead and
    memorize the spells most effective against the upcoming enemy.
    Likewise, you'll want to memorize spells that counter the upcoming
    mob’s abilities. Lastly, you may have some abilities that work
    synergistically with others in your group. But the key point here
    is that these tactical decisions can be made right before the
    actual encounter. Then, say you move on deeper into the dungeon
    and are about to confront a different boss with different
    abilities and a different disposition, it may make tactical sense
    to prep different abilities. So yes, you are limited to that
    extent (you cannot simply use any of your 80+ abilities whenever
    you wish) because planning for the battle ahead and doing so
    effectively is key to Pantheon. The exact number of spells,
    abilities, feats and actions one can prep is TBD and won’t likely
    be finalized until Beta. What’s depicted in screenshots showing
    the UI is not final."

    80+ abilities per class, I wonder if that means spell ranks or degrees of the same spell like in EQ. I also wonder how many of those spells are dedicated to combat? I am assuming at least 30 unique spells from that 80 list for combat?
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536

    svann said:

    I think 6 constantly used spells/abilities is enough.  
    After that there can be maybe 12 more available to use at a moments notice but they should not be used all the time.  Not saying the spell bar needs to be increased but even eq had aa's, combat abilities, and discs that we use sometimes not all the time.

    Now.  Autoattack - yea or nay?


    Yes to autoattack. I think it's important for melee so we do not have to constantly spam abilities to produce damage. Theoretically you could just have super slow combat abilities that require high resources like caster spells, but that just doesn't seem realistic.

    The real question is what percentage of damage should come from autoattack, and should it expend resources.


  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,238
    Essentially Auto Attack is the transition time/damage between cooldown abilities for melee. It's there to pace damage at a low rate to make sure that damage is still being produced, whereas a caster doesn't have an auto attack because their output for damage is typically higher at the cost of more mana.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536

    Torval said:

    Yes to auto attack in this situation unless there is a short cooldown "default" attack that doesn't cost a skill slot (like LMB or some keyboard bind). That would make it more challenging to time skills and do damage, but could be cumbersome and awkward to chain into normal skills.

    The auto-attack or non-auto default attack shouldn't consume resources. It could contribute to poorer in combat regen of resources though. Damage should be based on several factors and rolled similarly to a normal D&D/DIKU melee attack - weapon damage, strength, armour, modifiers, etc. The exact numbers and formula can be tweaked for balance.

    There should be no ranged auto attacks of any kind. No auto wand/stave and no auto sling/bow/x-bow attacks. It's just too OP and makes no sense. If there were ranged auto attacks then they should definitely cost resource.


    I don't really see why there shouldn't be resources expended from autoattack, especially if more of the melee damage comes from it. That was one of the biggest problems in EQ with trying to balance melee and caster. Caster were heavily reliant on resources (mana), while melee could go all day producing decent damage with autoattack alone.

    Also don't see a reason why ranged shouldn't have autoattack (both caster and bow). It's all the same premise. The formula or damage produced by it should of course vary. Don't think it's as necessary for caster, but the idea that some classes can produce significant damage resource free while others are left SOL just doesn't seem balanced.


  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,545
    More and more I'm growing to hate overly limited hot bars.  A realization that hit me hard recently when Marvel Heroes had their big update that restricted everyone to 8 skills or so.  I prefer to have more options in combat, even if some of them are only rarely used.  It allows for more complex combat or at the very least, more ways to play my character on the fly.
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    People make melee so they don't have to worry about a mana bar. Tying autoatk to resources would be a mistake. EQ melee were balanced because they could do little else beyond raw dps. Compare that to an enchanter lol.
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 9,722
    edited May 2017
    Who cares if damage uses a mana bar or not. As long as at the end of the fight its worth having each class there. Who cares. We get Wizards are low DPS till you need 3 things dead now and they mana dump to save a team. We get Necro dots dont do allot of damage till you get to a boss and there no one can touch the DPS they do. We are all happy to have the rogue that is consistent with their DPS so mobs keep falling. Lets not forget what made EQ1 so awesome. The classes were not balanced. They shined in their own area.  
    Gyva02
  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,238
    edited May 2017
    Lets get back on topic for the thread. I want to negate this 'train to zone' as much as possible, and no, I won't save the rangers or children first lol
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,536
    edited May 2017


    Nanfoodle said:


    Who cares if damage uses a mana bar or not. As long as at the end of the fight its worth having each class there. Who cares. We get Wizards are low DPS till you need 3 things dead now and they mana dump to save a team. We get Necro dots dont do allot of damage till you get to a boss and there no one can touch the DPS they do. We are all happy to have the rogue that is consistent with their DPS so mobs keep falling. Lets not forget what made EQ1 so awesome. The classes were not balanced. They shined in their own area.  




    That was exactly the problem for years in EQ. Not everyone was worth having because of that very issue. Anyone that took a wizard/druid/mage over a rogue or a monk was crazy, especially on harder group content and raids. A raid mob had hundreds of thousands of hp, yet casters would be oom in minutes while 15 minutes later melee were going strong.

    Tying resource usage to autoattack solves the problem without overthinking.


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