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Was all ready to pledge after the stream, then I looked at the pledge page...

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  • AsheramAsheram Member RarePosts: 3,762

    waynejr2 said:



    Asheram said:





    Markn said:



    One would hope 1k would give you a lifetime sub but guess not.






    Wasn't the price for lifetime sub in LotRO, AoC, Champions Online,Star Trek Online etc like 2-3 hundred dollars? And these guys dont even offer it when you pay $1000 lol.





    They don't have to offer life time subs.  Why do people feel entitled to have them?


    But they do offer a lifetime sub, except it costs $10,000 or $12,000 if you opt to pay them $300 a month for 12 months.
  • gervaise1gervaise1 Member EpicPosts: 6,082

    DMKano said:


    shaddy33 said:


    waynejr2 said:


    Asheram said:


    Markn said:

    One would hope 1k would give you a lifetime sub but guess not.


    Wasn't the price for lifetime sub in LotRO, AoC, Champions Online,Star Trek Online etc like 2-3 hundred dollars? And these guys dont even offer it when you pay $1000 lol.



    They don't have to offer life time subs.  Why do people feel entitled to have them?


    Because people have gotten them before on previous games. Definitely doesn't make it the norm. If this is the direction the company wants to go, let them go for it. I don't understand why people want to blast them for the direction they are going.

    Every company that has done lifetime subs has lost money on the deal.

    Its a horrible idea financially.


    To expand: 

    B2P and F2P sort of (see below) offer a "lifetime" sub; some make money (Overwatch, Destiny, LoL), some don't. The percentage that do and don't doesn't matter just underscores that its complicated, 

    Clearly if a team is going to continue and grow a game then they generate revenue from either Option 1: new sales and/or Option 2: revenue from cash shops, dlc etc.

    A lifetime sub that "guarantees" a steady stream of new content with no new revenue is committing to constant expenditure and limiting itself to Option 1: new sales revenue only. And - as you say - very few games pull that off.

    (To clarify the "sort of" comment as far as B2P/F2P games go they don't "guarantee" new stuff.)
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516

    DMKano said:



    shaddy33 said:






    waynejr2 said:









    Asheram said:











    Markn said:






    One would hope 1k would give you a lifetime sub but guess not.












    Wasn't the price for lifetime sub in LotRO, AoC, Champions Online,Star Trek Online etc like 2-3 hundred dollars? And these guys dont even offer it when you pay $1000 lol.











    They don't have to offer life time subs.  Why do people feel entitled to have them?








    Because people have gotten them before on previous games. Definitely doesn't make it the norm. If this is the direction the company wants to go, let them go for it. I don't understand why people want to blast them for the direction they are going.






    Every company that has done lifetime subs has lost money on the deal.

    Its a horrible idea financially.

    Based on what data that you've seen? At a $1,000 price point, I seriously doubt the majority of people who would purchase such a package would play beyond 5 years ($15*12*5+box fee=roughly 1k).

    Considering most games haven't had anything near that retention, I doubt there has been much financial hardship over lifetime subs at that price point.


  • HavepieHavepie Member UncommonPosts: 10
    But you don't have to pledge. Like, at all. Ever.
    You can just wait for the game to come out and pay your $60 and 15 a month.
    The point of pledging is for them to make money and raise money for development, not for them to make 0 profit off of you. A Pledge is you voluntarily donating, the perks are just nice perks.
    A beta spot is a hot ticket item that people always want in games, they can certainly sell those. It ensures that people beta testing are serious about the game since they have some skin in the game.
  • RallydRallyd Member UncommonPosts: 95
    To me a pledge is just a pre-order that you can't cancel that helps to develop a game that you have interest in being made.  Without this method of development we would surely never see a game like Pantheon.  I am glad for the emergence of crowd funding, and hopeful that people don't take advantage of it's innocence too much and ruin it.  (Star Citizen)
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 20,648
    edited April 2017


    Dullahan said:





    DMKano said:







    shaddy33 said:










    waynejr2 said:













    Asheram said:















    Markn said:








    One would hope 1k would give you a lifetime sub but guess not.
















    Wasn't the price for lifetime sub in LotRO, AoC, Champions Online,Star Trek Online etc like 2-3 hundred dollars? And these guys dont even offer it when you pay $1000 lol.















    They don't have to offer life time subs.  Why do people feel entitled to have them?












    Because people have gotten them before on previous games. Definitely doesn't make it the norm. If this is the direction the company wants to go, let them go for it. I don't understand why people want to blast them for the direction they are going.










    Every company that has done lifetime subs has lost money on the deal.

    Its a horrible idea financially.



    Based on what data that you've seen? At a $1,000 price point, I seriously doubt the majority of people who would purchase such a package would play beyond 5 years ($15*12*5+box fee=roughly 1k).

    Considering most games haven't had anything near that retention, I doubt there has been much financial hardship over lifetime subs at that price point.





    I am talking about other MMOs that offered Lifetime Subscription option - it was usually at a around several hundred dollars like DCUO had it for $199 and Lotro had it for $199

    They lost their ass on those - which is one of the reasons they all got removed.

    It's a moot point today with cash shops and no subs - but with sub only option - lifetime sub would have to be extremely expensive to be worth it.
  • TillerTiller Member EpicPosts: 7,740
    Lets just face it, the crowd funding cat is out of the bag and not going away. People will always put money into things because they want to regardless of whether it's a bad idea or not. I mean hell some lady crowd funded her kids trip to Disneyland, I wish I had thought of that before shelling out 15k on a trip. Is it a bad bushiness move to offer pledges with rewards? Probably not since it seems to work.


  • genaknoscgenaknosc Member UncommonPosts: 112

    ragz45 said:

    $1,000 being the most popular pledge tier.

    For 1 grand or more, you don't even get a lifetime sub, you get 6 months.  Not only can I not help but wonder who's got a grand to drop on a game that's still in alpha, but I'm astounded by the fact that this is the most popular pledge tier.  Maybe I'm just old, but I can remember when you bought a game for $50-60  and then had a $15 sub on top of that, and that was all.  Now we're expected to drop a grand on a game that's still in development, in the hopes that we like the end product?

    I mean, assuming $15 a month for a sub, and a $60 box price.  It would take me 5 years to pay a grand in box+ sub fees.  And people are dropping a grand left and right on this game?  I really don't understand what gamer culture has come to if this is the case.  The microtransaction shops that infest games are bad enough (can remember when games supported themselves on subs alone), but this is just crazy.


    Nobody really knows if the $1000 package is actually the most popular, except the people in charge of Pantheon. It would be a very appropriate and useful marketing strategy to mark the $1000 one as most popular, even if it is not, in order to apply social proof effect to the package which would garner the most profit for the Pantheon game team.

    The social proof is already working, as OP is conflicted about getting the $1000 when he clearly cannot rationalize or afford it.

    Not sure why anybody would trust a project headed up by Brad McQuaid anyway.
  • DarLorkarDarLorkar Member UncommonPosts: 1,082

    DMKano said:

    Every company that has done lifetime subs has lost money on the deal.

    Its a horrible idea financially.


    I would need to see some stats on that to believe it.

    I think they may have lost money on a few of them sure, that stayed around for the long haul.

     But i would bet the majority of those that bought the lifetimes, never played the game that long to make it to the break even.

    Just the way people are, they come into a game with stars in their eyes, and hype in their ears,then the real game bites them in the butt.

    The few people that i know personally that bought lifetime subs to games didn't  play them  even a year and regretted buying them.
  • jairusjairus Member UncommonPosts: 175
    edited April 2017



    DMKano said:





    I am talking about other MMOs that offered Lifetime Subscription option - it was usually at a around several hundred dollars like DCUO had it for $199 and Lotro had it for $199

    They lost their ass on those - which is one of the reasons they all got removed.

    It's a moot point today with cash shops and no subs - but with sub only option - lifetime sub would have to be extremely expensive to be worth it.






    also, Hellgate: London life time sub was $150 and the game completely failed.
    the average pledge on the pantheon kickstarter that failed was $150
    Brad is a smart con man. With the history of this game's development you'd be a fool to pledge anything.
    But you know what they say about fools and money. This is just Vanguard 2.0
    There are a lot of people from firesofheaven(dot)org a group who grew up on EQ that are craving another reskin no matter how bad it is and are willing to drop 1k+ on a game this early.
    So it wouldn't surprise me if the 1k pledge is truly the most popular 
    Post edited by jairus on
  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 20,648

    DarLorkar said:



    DMKano said:

    Every company that has done lifetime subs has lost money on the deal.

    Its a horrible idea financially.




    I would need to see some stats on that to believe it.

    I think they may have lost money on a few of them sure, that stayed around for the long haul.

     But i would bet the majority of those that bought the lifetimes, never played the game that long to make it to the break even.

    Just the way people are, they come into a game with stars in their eyes, and hype in their ears,then the real game bites them in the butt.

    The few people that i know personally that bought lifetime subs to games didn't  play them  even a year and regretted buying them.



    Again specifically was talking about DCUO and LOTRO - that offered lifetime subs for $199


  • StoneRosesStoneRoses Member RarePosts: 1,628
    it's right up there with games like Starcitizen.

    ShipShip ManufacturerStandalone PriceWarbond PriceOriginal Concept PriceAvailabilityGame Package Price
    890 JumpOrigin Jumpworks GmbH$890--                   $600             #Limited $10.000 Combo Pack
    Idris-MAegis Dynamics$1000--                   $1000             #Limited$10.000 Combo Pack
    Idris-PAegis Dynamics$1500--                   $1250             #Limited$5.000 Combo Pack
    JavelinAegis Dynamics$3000$2700                   $2500             #Limited--

    Standalone Price: Price for the ship when it's available in the pledge store.

    Warbond Price: Discounted prices to generate new money for development. Only cash can be used, no store credit allowed. Usually only available during the initial concept sale.

    Original Concept Price: Price of the ship at the original concept sale. The original value is used in this colum, not the warbond discount price.

    Game Package Price: Price for ship including the game. There have been other packages for sale with different ship combinatons, but only the ones that are permanent available in the pledge store are listed here. And for the #Limited ships the package that includes that ship has been listed.

    Availability Key Edit

    Permanent: Currently available in the pledge store and will remain available for the foreseeable future.

    Limited: Only sold during initial concept sale or special events, all are expected to return to the pledge store at some point.

    #Limited: Only a limited number of the ships were sold. They may or may not return to the pledge store. Most of these ships are still available in the combo packages. The Scythe and Idris-M will never return outside of the $10,000 and $15,000 packs.

    *Limited: Only available during the initial concept sale and has been stated to never be available during sales again.

    Promo: Only has been available as a promotional item in cooperation with another company.

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  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,200
    Umm, no. Pantheon's pledge packages are nothing like Star Citizen...
    --------------------------------------------
  • hatefulpeacehatefulpeace Member UncommonPosts: 621

    Nanfoodle said:

    You do get a 50 pledge gets you a copy of the game and some perks? 100 gets you 2 copies of the game + perks + Beta access? Support or dont :) great part is you don't need to. See you at launch if that's what you want :) 


    That is kinda jumping the gun don't u think? There is no guarantee this game will ever come out. Look at shrouds of the avatar. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,283




    Nanfoodle said:


    You do get a 50 pledge gets you a copy of the game and some perks? 100 gets you 2 copies of the game + perks + Beta access? Support or dont :) great part is you don't need to. See you at launch if that's what you want :) 




    That is kinda jumping the gun don't u think? There is no guarantee this game will ever come out. Look at shrouds of the avatar. 


    So many indie titles I get them confused, but didn't SOTA "launch" meaning they stopped wiping the servers?

    Or am I thinking of another game?

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  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    edited April 2017


    Kyleran said:












    Nanfoodle said:




    You do get a 50 pledge gets you a copy of the game and some perks? 100 gets you 2 copies of the game + perks + Beta access? Support or dont :) great part is you don't need to. See you at launch if that's what you want :) 








    That is kinda jumping the gun don't u think? There is no guarantee this game will ever come out. Look at shrouds of the avatar. 






    So many indie titles I get them confused, but didn't SOTA "launch" meaning they stopped wiping the servers?

    Or am I thinking of another game?




    Nope. You're smelling the right pile of poop.

    People who pledged did so for five episodes. They can't seem to finish number one.

    Given the older audience of SotA, most of them will die of old age before the fifth episode becomes a "launch that is not a launch".

    Reminds me of a young person who marries an older person hoping they'll die so they can inherit their fortune.

    Gold-digger, I believe they call it.

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  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,430
    Eventually, this genre will die if something doesn't eventually click. New MMOs are mostly trash and the ones that aren't are F2P with P2W cash shop milk machines.

    Only truly viable MMO's left with healthy populations
    • World or Warcraft
    • Guild Wars 2
    • Elder Scrolls Online
    • Final Fantasy XIV: Realm Reborn
    Notice any alarming similarities about these 4 MMOs? Are any of them F2P? Nope. Do any of them have a P2W cash shop milking machine? Nope. Two of them are still subscription based. One of them has a hybrid payment system and the last one is B2P with an unfortunate case of RNG boxes.

    So, the question is. How does Pantheon compare to any of these 4 MMOs? It is going P2P without a cash shop. So that is a good start. Now you're going to say, well what about WildStar? Nothing was terribly wrong with WildStar. It had some very strong points, but it also had some extremely weak points. On top of that, it buckled into a F2P version to try and recoup their losses.

    Pantheon is a spiritual successor. No offense to Brad, but Vanguard was definitely not a spiritual successor. Taking EQ's core mechanics with some minor updated changes, improved graphics and animations and starting over with a new world with new lore and finally adding in some newer mechanics is how you revitalize a classic.

    There's a reason I've been playing progressive / vanilla EQ, SWG, DAoC Classic and Vanilla WoW lately. Those games make sense. I don't know why so many great MMOs feel the need to perform drastic changes to their core mechanics. WoW is the biggest culprit of this and while it's still popuplar, it's also at 50% of it's peak population and has been for quite a while. Nothing they've done has brought back the 5 million players they lost.

  • RnjypsyRnjypsy Member UncommonPosts: 63

    jimmywolf said:

    checked their KS page  https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen

    Pledge $250 or more


    Pathfinder's Pledge - All previous reward tiers PLUS: The first year's

    subscription is included, and the subsequent yearly rate is $1.


    it not very cost effective to offer lifetime gaming  if you plan to have you game running longer then 2 years it a lose, so it was a good value then but not enough agreed  for the game to reach 100% funded.

    so they put in more work offer lower rewards to offset their cost an now people are coming out woodworks saying they want lifetime sub/better rewards when before they were absent or maybe they just want too troll.


    I think the idea is that the game should be good enough to draw those subs after launch.  If you are scared of losing founder subs by offering a lifetime sub to them...well, let's just say it doesn't bode well.
  • jairusjairus Member UncommonPosts: 175

    Rhoklaw said:

    Eventually, this genre will die if something doesn't eventually click. New MMOs are mostly trash and the ones that aren't are F2P with P2W cash shop milk machines.

    Only truly viable MMO's left with healthy populations
    • World or Warcraft
    • Guild Wars 2
    • Elder Scrolls Online
    • Final Fantasy XIV: Realm Reborn



    wrong. Runescape, BDO, GW2, MapleStory, Revelation Online, TERA, BnS
    I'm missing some i'm sure. Trove also has a ton of players.
    What difference does it make though?
  • MarknMarkn Member UncommonPosts: 195
    I just found it odd that they don't include lifetime sub in 1k or 3k pledge.  You're basically spending that to get prealpha testing.  Add a lifetime sub to it and more people would find it appealing.
  • HeretiqueHeretique Member RarePosts: 1,494

    Rhoklaw said:

    Eventually, this genre will die if something doesn't eventually click. New MMOs are mostly trash and the ones that aren't are F2P with P2W cash shop milk machines.

    Only truly viable MMO's left with healthy populations
    • World or Warcraft
    • Guild Wars 2
    • Elder Scrolls Online
    • Final Fantasy XIV: Realm Reborn
    Notice any alarming similarities about these 4 MMOs? Are any of them F2P? Nope. Do any of them have a P2W cash shop milking machine? Nope. Two of them are still subscription based. One of them has a hybrid payment system and the last one is B2P with an unfortunate case of RNG boxes.




    QFT. Problem is developers/companies will keep milking the "Founder Package / Kickstarter / DLC" train until it doesn't make money anymore. Why not get easy money from easily convinced masses? Makes sense to me. Does it make great games? Have yet to see one.

    Sub will always be better than F2P, that's been a debate for a long time. Seeing as we've seen evidence of how bad F2P can be, probably would be in the best interest for a developer to make a sub game (IMO).
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited April 2017


    Heretique said:




    QFT. Problem is developers/companies will keep milking the "Founder Package / Kickstarter / DLC" train until it doesn't make money anymore. Why not get easy money from easily convinced masses? Makes sense to me. Does it make great games? Have yet to see one.

    Sub will always be better than F2P, that's been a debate for a long time. Seeing as we've seen evidence of how bad F2P can be, probably would be in the best interest for a developer to make a sub game (IMO).




    I've always preferred subs as well, however that last line is a bit simplistic (maybe even overly so). As far as western F2P titles go only a small percentage of them started out that way. The vast majority began with a sub only model. The problem these companies face is that there a bunch of free options to play, secondly there's only so many players to go around.

    The nature of the genre, extended play with massive time sinks with progress tied to it. Makes it hard to attract many for the long haul, many simply go back to the game they put the most effort into and have achieved the most in.

    I think it's going to be extremely hard for these new indie games to live off a sub model, it's hard for companies that have 100's of millions to finance themselves with. look at a game like ESO, which launched with tons of content. It will be hard to match that amount of content on a shoe string budget, let alone offer a more robust experience. Considering even that wasn't enough to make the sub sustainable. I think it may be wishful thinking that there are enough players to sustain themselves on year after year. I think the biggest cause of decline will be simply not enough content nor fast enough pipeline to fill the gaps. 

     

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768

    shaddy33 said:




    waynejr2 said:







    Asheram said:









    Markn said:





    One would hope 1k would give you a lifetime sub but guess not.










    Wasn't the price for lifetime sub in LotRO, AoC, Champions Online,Star Trek Online etc like 2-3 hundred dollars? And these guys dont even offer it when you pay $1000 lol.









    They don't have to offer life time subs.  Why do people feel entitled to have them?






    Because people have gotten them before on previous games. Definitely doesn't make it the norm. If this is the direction the company wants to go, let them go for it. I don't understand why people want to blast them for the direction they are going.



    So a company has to offer lifetime subs because another company did it.  Amazing thinking.
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  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,509
    edited April 2017
    Lifetime subs is basically sentencing your game to financial death in the long term.  You'll have to keep paying maintenance and development costs over time while the customer pays nothing, only ending when your game's life time ends (fititngly enough).

    Of course, given that all things die eventually, it might be a prudent business decision to offer life time subs anyways, if only because you know your game's going to die.  That.... doesn't really say very good things about the game in question when that's the case, though.

    Indeed, if a game is offering life time subs, that's either the company being complete idiots or knowing that their game isn't going to stick it out long enough for it to be a problem.  Neither of which speak well for the future of the game in question.
  • KonfessKonfess Member RarePosts: 1,666
    What is the purpose of this thread?  To Fund a Game in Development?  No.  To get another P4F game!  And NOT Fund a Game in Development.  To fund a game or not, is a personal decision. To come to an open forum to persuade other not to fund a game, is Obstruction of Commerce.

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    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
    Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
    It costs money to play.  Therefore P2W.

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