Contractions are your friend. That said, the only point I see a problem with is the idea no one should care about past actions, when those actions were taking other's money given for an exchange of goods, and spending it on personal BS. That's a rather important factor.
What does this even mean? You do realize that most money, both before and after a game is created, goes to the people who are making it; and those people spend it on "bullshit things" they need to enable them to continue making the game.
You know exactly what I was referring to...There's a huge difference between paying salaries which is what the money is for and the past allegations against BM.
Either way the point is moot. Brad has nothing to do with the business end of things. The game is on track and looks like it has the funding it needs to get somewhere good. I see no need to drag his name through the mud when it serves no purpose. Past is in the past.
I would rather no one else at the helm of creative direction then Brad. My top 3 favorite MMOs, 2 of them were designed by his hands.
Next, I'm not even going to look up the definition of the word Pledge because I understand what V Realms is doing.
I hold no allegiance to anyone, I'm just another fan of Pantheon.
This company is trying to give us a true mmo. Their not a mainstream company with shareholders and they have limited cash resources. We shouldn't care about past personal histories, we should only care about the here and now or THIS GAME IS NOT FOR YOU !
This company is up front on what it's doing. They are asking for help in delivering a product for us. They understand the need and demand and they are trying to give us something many of us want.
It takes guts to make an mmo !!!!.......We should all know this by now. The cost is high. For most NO RETURN ON INVESTMENT until the product is delivered. This could take years of no pay unless their is something I don't know. Their is the possibility they are getting some funding from sources that do ask for profit, but you know what ? That's none of our business. But one thing for sure, they need to pay this back, and that's stress.
Does V Realms want to make a living ?....... Sure they do !
Does V Realms want to excel and be rich if that 1% chance of making it happen and things go their way ?..... Sure they do !
Could you imagine the cost ?..... I'm not a programmer or a business man, but one thing I do know. $100 doesn't even give one days pay with health care to any worker at least in the United States.
I'll close with this:
Give freely, and take their LITTLE GIFT because they APPRECIATE what your doing. If not don't do anything !
I don't care if anyone responds to this, I don't care if you agree or not..... I may even bump this to the top a few times, until everyone understands what the pledge is for.
I don't really see a problem with lifetime subs for a big pledge.
Despite how things may work elsewhere, pledges in crowdfunding aren't generally charity. There is an expectation of something tangible (even if it's digital) in return.
A lifetime sub should be included with pledges above a certain amount. Say $250 or over.
The money from people at this point is to help finish development. If they are in need and people pony up funds then perks like a lifetime sub for X amount of dollars is very reasonable to expect.
I applaud the people that do pledge, but I always wait until a finished product to buy. The whole craze of crowdfunding is weird to me. But I am old, so maybe its just me not understanding putting money towards a product with no guarantee of quality, release date, ect.
I was about to let this posting go and let it sink to the bottom and disappear.
But after reading the MASS bull Crap in the other topic how people expect lifetime subs attached to a pledge, I can't !!
The company is asking for donations to help make their game and they give a small gift in doing so.
People seem to want total payback and then some !!!!!!!!
It's one thing to be SELFISH, but it's another to be closed minded along with being SELFISH.
What the !&#% are you on about, man? O.o
I think he was very clear. You may want to reread his post.
He was clearly ranting, seeming somewhat delusional at that. He sounds like what I would imagine Donald Trump would sound like when faced with campaign contributors asking, "So where's my wall?"
I was about to let this posting go and let it sink to the bottom and disappear.
But after reading the MASS bull Crap in the other topic how people expect lifetime subs attached to a pledge, I can't !!
The company is asking for donations to help make their game and they give a small gift in doing so.
People seem to want total payback and then some !!!!!!!!
It's one thing to be SELFISH, but it's another to be closed minded along with being SELFISH.
What the !&#% are you on about, man? O.o
I think he was very clear. You may want to reread his post.
He was clearly ranting, seeming somewhat delusional at that. He sounds like what I would imagine Donald Trump would sound like when faced with campaign contributors asking, "So where's my wall?"
Your right, I was delusional because I was on heavy drugs on the day I made the OP. Now that I'm cleared up and thinking selfishly like you, I'm ready to pledge.
However My pledge of only $50.00 will come with a stipulation.... I want:
- 3 copies of the game for free. - A lifetime sub. - And if the game turns successful, I WANT my money back with an added 25%. - And a voice message of thank you.
@delete5230 So first you make fun of people wanting a life time sub and now you want one and you want to be paid back for your pledge. Are you trying to be funny? Because this adds nothing to the forum.
@delete5230 So first you make fun of people wanting a life time sub and now you want one and you want to be paid back for your pledge. Are you trying to be funny? Because this adds nothing to the forum.
Yeah, that post of theirs was all sarcasm, with maybe a touch of ridicule thrown in on the side. I did not take from that, they were looking to claim anything on that list. They were again pointing out the absurdity of any claims beyond those in the KS.
Pardon any spelling errors
Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven Boy: Why can't I talk to Him? Mom: We don't talk to Priests. As if it could exist, without being payed for. F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing. Even telemarketers wouldn't think that. It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Your right, I was delusional because I was on heavy drugs on the day I made the OP. Now that I'm cleared up and thinking selfishly like you, I'm ready to pledge.
However My pledge of only $50.00 will come with a stipulation.... I want:
- 3 copies of the game for free. - A lifetime sub. - And if the game turns successful, I WANT my money back with an added 25%. - And a voice message of thank you.
Annnndddd nobody I've seen here at MMORPG.Com even asked for money back on their investment (though the argument could certainly be made that it would be appropriate considering the amounts of money some folks are throwing at crowdfunded projects), rendering your response fallacious at best, useless trolling at worst. Crowdfunding is less consumer friendly than Day 1 DLC and season passes ever were. The fact that you attempt to make some kind of morality argument at all indicates you're looking at this in completely the wrong way, which just so happens to be exactly the way these projects want you to look at it.
It's business, no matter how "passionate" the devs claim to be about their little pet project they want you to fund for them. Stop acting like we owe them anything at all simply because they're asking us to help fund their game. Quite the opposite.
Newsflash: they don't care about your happiness beyond whether or not it happens to coincide with making them money.
Your right, I was delusional because I was on heavy drugs on the day I made the OP. Now that I'm cleared up and thinking selfishly like you, I'm ready to pledge.
However My pledge of only $50.00 will come with a stipulation.... I want:
- 3 copies of the game for free. - A lifetime sub. - And if the game turns successful, I WANT my money back with an added 25%. - And a voice message of thank you.
Annnndddd nobody I've seen here at MMORPG.Com even asked for money back on their investment (though the argument could certainly be made that it would be appropriate considering the amounts of money some folks are throwing at crowdfunded projects), rendering your response fallacious at best, useless trolling at worst. Crowdfunding is less consumer friendly than Day 1 DLC and season passes ever were. The fact that you attempt to make some kind of morality argument at all indicates you're looking at this in completely the wrong way, which just so happens to be exactly the way these projects want you to look at it.
It's business, no matter how "passionate" the devs claim to be about their little pet project they want you to fund for them. Stop acting like we owe them anything at all simply because they're asking us to help fund their game. Quite the opposite.
Newsflash: they don't care about your happiness beyond whether or not it happens to coincide with making them money.
If there intention is making money, they're doing it wrong. Everyone on their team could have made far more working for any established studio rather than bootstrapping Pantheon.
Your right, I was delusional because I was on heavy drugs on the day I made the OP. Now that I'm cleared up and thinking selfishly like you, I'm ready to pledge.
However My pledge of only $50.00 will come with a stipulation.... I want:
- 3 copies of the game for free. - A lifetime sub. - And if the game turns successful, I WANT my money back with an added 25%. - And a voice message of thank you.
Annnndddd nobody I've seen here at MMORPG.Com even asked for money back on their investment (though the argument could certainly be made that it would be appropriate considering the amounts of money some folks are throwing at crowdfunded projects), rendering your response fallacious at best, useless trolling at worst. Crowdfunding is less consumer friendly than Day 1 DLC and season passes ever were. The fact that you attempt to make some kind of morality argument at all indicates you're looking at this in completely the wrong way, which just so happens to be exactly the way these projects want you to look at it.
It's business, no matter how "passionate" the devs claim to be about their little pet project they want you to fund for them. Stop acting like we owe them anything at all simply because they're asking us to help fund their game. Quite the opposite.
Newsflash: they don't care about your happiness beyond whether or not it happens to coincide with making them money.
If there intention is making money, they're doing it wrong. Everyone on their team could have made far more working for any established studio rather than bootstrapping Pantheon.
+1 I agree with Dullahan
My opinion: Without studying the resume of everyone on the team like many here do, I can say the team is largely made up of the old passionately devoted developers from EQ. Please don't rip into me as I don't care to dig into details. Even if I'm wrong this is the underlying moto of VR.
It's like they got together and thought....... Know what ? MMO's suck anymore (same way we think) Lets get everyone back and try are hardest and do it again. It will be risky as hell but lets go for it !!!!
My opinion: Without studying the resume of everyone on the team like many here do, I can say the team is largely made up of the old passionately devoted developers from EQ. Please don't rip into me as I don't care to dig into details. Even if I'm wrong this is the underlying moto of VR.
It's like they got together and thought....... Know what ? MMO's suck anymore (same way we think) Lets get everyone back and try are hardest and do it again. It will be risky as hell but lets go for it !!!!
This takes guts !
I thought I read most of the experienced devs left when things fell through with the last team, as well as the current team being most Ams? which by the look of the work so far doesn't really mean much if they can do the job, they can do the job. I wouldn't hold that against them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
My opinion: Without studying the resume of everyone on the team like many here do, I can say the team is largely made up of the old passionately devoted developers from EQ. Please don't rip into me as I don't care to dig into details. Even if I'm wrong this is the underlying moto of VR.
It's like they got together and thought....... Know what ? MMO's suck anymore (same way we think) Lets get everyone back and try are hardest and do it again. It will be risky as hell but lets go for it !!!!
This takes guts !
I thought I read most of the experienced devs left when things fell through with the last team, as well as the current team being most Ams? which by the look of the work so far doesn't really mean much if they can do the job, they can do the job. I wouldn't hold that against them.
I don't study the details, this in not very important to me, so you could be right.
I base everything from the moto, vision and passion of the here and now.
My opinion: Without studying the resume of everyone on the team like many here do, I can say the team is largely made up of the old passionately devoted developers from EQ. Please don't rip into me as I don't care to dig into details. Even if I'm wrong this is the underlying moto of VR.
It's like they got together and thought....... Know what ? MMO's suck anymore (same way we think) Lets get everyone back and try are hardest and do it again. It will be risky as hell but lets go for it !!!!
This takes guts !
I thought I read most of the experienced devs left when things fell through with the last team, as well as the current team being most Ams? which by the look of the work so far doesn't really mean much if they can do the job, they can do the job. I wouldn't hold that against them.
I don't study the details, this in not very important to me, so you could be right.
I base everything from the moto, vision and passion of the here and now.
I really don't study such details either, you'll often find the best ideas from folks coming from outside the institutionalized tunnel vision in a lot of creative fields.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Your right, I was delusional because I was on heavy drugs on the day I made the OP. Now that I'm cleared up and thinking selfishly like you, I'm ready to pledge.
However My pledge of only $50.00 will come with a stipulation.... I want:
- 3 copies of the game for free. - A lifetime sub. - And if the game turns successful, I WANT my money back with an added 25%. - And a voice message of thank you.
Annnndddd nobody I've seen here at MMORPG.Com even asked for money back on their investment (though the argument could certainly be made that it would be appropriate considering the amounts of money some folks are throwing at crowdfunded projects), rendering your response fallacious at best, useless trolling at worst. Crowdfunding is less consumer friendly than Day 1 DLC and season passes ever were. The fact that you attempt to make some kind of morality argument at all indicates you're looking at this in completely the wrong way, which just so happens to be exactly the way these projects want you to look at it.
It's business, no matter how "passionate" the devs claim to be about their little pet project they want you to fund for them. Stop acting like we owe them anything at all simply because they're asking us to help fund their game. Quite the opposite.
Newsflash: they don't care about your happiness beyond whether or not it happens to coincide with making them money.
If there intention is making money, they're doing it wrong. Everyone on their team could have made far more working for any established studio rather than bootstrapping Pantheon.
And? For it to be a true passion project, they would only ask for contributions as they incurred costs, they would refund any money made above strictly what is needed to keep the bills paid. Are they doing this? No? Do they expect to continue taking in money after release above and beyond operations costs? Yes? Then it's business.
Ask them to finish the project pro bono, see how passionate they are about THAT project.
I'm all for a genre renaissance. I just refuse to let my emotional desire for such a renaissance blind me to reality. The reality is they're a for-profit business that wouldn't be spending their time on this if they didn't think it would support their studio. That's not evil, but it doesn't deserve such high praise, and it certainly doesn't mean we owe them a damn thing for it. Once they qualify as a charity, then I'll make an emotional investment. Until then, I expect goods and/or services in return for any cash I hand them, and it is completely absurd to make the argument that we should just be grateful for whatever "gifts" they offer us. Nah buddy, YOU can think that way if you like; I'll save my cash for a product that has shown it's worth the price of admission when I lay my money down on it, not a second before.
EDIT- I should add here that I approached crowdfunding with an optimism akin to Erillion's optimism for SC. I've since seen the system abused and squeezed for every red cent a developer can get for an unfinished project. I've since decided crowdfunding is just code for developers to skip paying the middle-man (AAA publishers); nothing more. They're, generally, as greedy as any other for-profit business. They just make a very special appeal to emotion to try and fleece their customers for as much cash as possible, all the while they don't even need a completed project. In fact, one might argue that, in some cases, a finished project would actually limit their continued earning potential.
And? For it to be a true passion project, they would only ask for contributions as they incurred costs, they would refund any money made above strictly what is needed to keep the bills paid. Are they doing this? No? Do they expect to continue taking in money after release above and beyond operations costs? Yes? Then it's business.
Ask them to finish the project pro bono, see how passionate they are about THAT project.
I'm all for a genre renaissance. I just refuse to let my emotional desire for such a renaissance blind me to reality. The reality is they're a for-profit business that wouldn't be spending their time on this if they didn't think it would support their studio. That's not evil, but it doesn't deserve such high praise, and it certainly doesn't mean we owe them a damn thing for it. Once they qualify as a charity, then I'll make an emotional investment. Until then, I expect goods and/or services in return for any cash I hand them, and it is completely absurd to make the argument that we should just be grateful for whatever "gifts" they offer us. Nah buddy, YOU can think that way if you like; I'll save my cash for a product that has shown it's worth the price of admission when I lay my money down on it, not a second before.
EDIT- I should add here that I approached crowdfunding with an optimism akin to Erillion's optimism for SC. I've since seen the system abused and squeezed for every red cent a developer can get for an unfinished project. I've since decided crowdfunding is just code for developers to skip paying the middle-man (AAA publishers); nothing more. They're, generally, as greedy as any other for-profit business. They just make a very special appeal to emotion to try and fleece their customers for as much cash as possible, all the while they don't even need a completed project. In fact, one might argue that, in some cases, a finished project would actually limit their continued earning potential.
Okay, for this to be a passion project, they have to do it for the rest of their lives without pay? Right.
That isn't how it works. Sacrifice is sacrifice. They have committed a lot by way of time and money/potential money to get Pantheon off the ground, for what may not be especially profitable even under the best of circumstances.
Eventually, should things go well it will turn into a career for all of them, but for years now, and probably years to come, they are making a lot of sacrifices to make this game a reality. It's a huge gamble, and their careers and livelihood hangs in the balance.
Your narrowly defining what constitutes a project of passion is both ridiculous and insulting.
Comments
Either way the point is moot. Brad has nothing to do with the business end of things. The game is on track and looks like it has the funding it needs to get somewhere good. I see no need to drag his name through the mud when it serves no purpose. Past is in the past.
I would rather no one else at the helm of creative direction then Brad. My top 3 favorite MMOs, 2 of them were designed by his hands.
Did they found a religion or something now?
beLIEve
But after reading the MASS bull Crap in the other topic how people expect lifetime subs attached to a pledge, I can't !!
The company is asking for donations to help make their game and they give a small gift in doing so.
People seem to want total payback and then some !!!!!!!!
It's one thing to be SELFISH, but it's another to be closed minded along with being SELFISH.
What the !&#% are you on about, man? O.o
The money from people at this point is to help finish development. If they are in need and people pony up funds then perks like a lifetime sub for X amount of dollars is very reasonable to expect.
I applaud the people that do pledge, but I always wait until a finished product to buy. The whole craze of crowdfunding is weird to me. But I am old, so maybe its just me not understanding putting money towards a product with no guarantee of quality, release date, ect.
I think he was very clear. You may want to reread his post.
$250
- Unlimited Champion Access
- Alpha access
- Beta access
- Early name reservation
- 2 Digital copies of the game
- Additional character slot
- Game Title: Pantheon Explorer
- Stack of Minor Illusion Flasks
- Explorer's Backpack
- Tunic of the Ages
- Keepsake Vanity Pet
- Ring of the Fallen
- 5 item renaming vouchers
- Name appears in game credits
- 3 Months Game Subscription
Keep Calm pledge rewards wont be impacting the game in any way.He was clearly ranting, seeming somewhat delusional at that. He sounds like what I would imagine Donald Trump would sound like when faced with campaign contributors asking, "So where's my wall?"
Your right, I was delusional because I was on heavy drugs on the day I made the OP.
Now that I'm cleared up and thinking selfishly like you, I'm ready to pledge.
However My pledge of only $50.00 will come with a stipulation.... I want:
- 3 copies of the game for free.
- A lifetime sub.
- And if the game turns successful, I WANT my money back with an added 25%.
- And a voice message of thank you.
Yeah, that post of theirs was all sarcasm, with maybe a touch of ridicule thrown in on the side. I did not take from that, they were looking to claim anything on that list. They were again pointing out the absurdity of any claims beyond those in the KS.
Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
As if it could exist, without being payed for.
F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.
Even telemarketers wouldn't think that.
It costs money to play. Therefore P2W.
Annnndddd nobody I've seen here at MMORPG.Com even asked for money back on their investment (though the argument could certainly be made that it would be appropriate considering the amounts of money some folks are throwing at crowdfunded projects), rendering your response fallacious at best, useless trolling at worst. Crowdfunding is less consumer friendly than Day 1 DLC and season passes ever were. The fact that you attempt to make some kind of morality argument at all indicates you're looking at this in completely the wrong way, which just so happens to be exactly the way these projects want you to look at it.
It's business, no matter how "passionate" the devs claim to be about their little pet project they want you to fund for them. Stop acting like we owe them anything at all simply because they're asking us to help fund their game. Quite the opposite.
Newsflash: they don't care about your happiness beyond whether or not it happens to coincide with making them money.
+1 I agree with Dullahan
My opinion:
Without studying the resume of everyone on the team like many here do, I can say the team is largely made up of the old passionately devoted developers from EQ. Please don't rip into me as I don't care to dig into details. Even if I'm wrong this is the underlying moto of VR.
It's like they got together and thought....... Know what ? MMO's suck anymore (same way we think) Lets get everyone back and try are hardest and do it again. It will be risky as hell but lets go for it !!!!
This takes guts !
I thought I read most of the experienced devs left when things fell through with the last team, as well as the current team being most Ams? which by the look of the work so far doesn't really mean much if they can do the job, they can do the job. I wouldn't hold that against them.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I don't study the details, this in not very important to me, so you could be right.
I base everything from the moto, vision and passion of the here and now.
I really don't study such details either, you'll often find the best ideas from folks coming from outside the institutionalized tunnel vision in a lot of creative fields.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Yeah this is how you get scammed, and if you base your opinion on wrong data (like who the Devs are) then you are wasting your time and passion.
You don't stop playing because you get old, you get old when you stop playing ..
Shh, pay no attention to the man behind the curtain....
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Personally I\d rather have an MMORPG.
And? For it to be a true passion project, they would only ask for contributions as they incurred costs, they would refund any money made above strictly what is needed to keep the bills paid. Are they doing this? No? Do they expect to continue taking in money after release above and beyond operations costs? Yes? Then it's business.
Ask them to finish the project pro bono, see how passionate they are about THAT project.
I'm all for a genre renaissance. I just refuse to let my emotional desire for such a renaissance blind me to reality. The reality is they're a for-profit business that wouldn't be spending their time on this if they didn't think it would support their studio. That's not evil, but it doesn't deserve such high praise, and it certainly doesn't mean we owe them a damn thing for it. Once they qualify as a charity, then I'll make an emotional investment. Until then, I expect goods and/or services in return for any cash I hand them, and it is completely absurd to make the argument that we should just be grateful for whatever "gifts" they offer us. Nah buddy, YOU can think that way if you like; I'll save my cash for a product that has shown it's worth the price of admission when I lay my money down on it, not a second before.
EDIT- I should add here that I approached crowdfunding with an optimism akin to Erillion's optimism for SC. I've since seen the system abused and squeezed for every red cent a developer can get for an unfinished project. I've since decided crowdfunding is just code for developers to skip paying the middle-man (AAA publishers); nothing more. They're, generally, as greedy as any other for-profit business. They just make a very special appeal to emotion to try and fleece their customers for as much cash as possible, all the while they don't even need a completed project. In fact, one might argue that, in some cases, a finished project would actually limit their continued earning potential.
That isn't how it works. Sacrifice is sacrifice. They have committed a lot by way of time and money/potential money to get Pantheon off the ground, for what may not be especially profitable even under the best of circumstances.
Eventually, should things go well it will turn into a career for all of them, but for years now, and probably years to come, they are making a lot of sacrifices to make this game a reality. It's a huge gamble, and their careers and livelihood hangs in the balance.
Your narrowly defining what constitutes a project of passion is both ridiculous and insulting.