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Detailed breakdown of the 4/27/2017 stream: Phantheon

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Comments

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    edited April 2017
    Vorthanion said:


    Yes, but in the context of their very own description, it's ultimately a gate locking mechanism for raid type content or anything with decent loot.  I'm sure this is to stroke those elite player egos, by making the unlocking process so unbearably tedious, that only no-lifers will reach those tier 3, 4 and 5 areas and raids.


    Ooo, gating. Ooo, locking! You're just using extreme language to describe progression that exists in every game. Whether it's items, levels, player skill, time, or a mix. Every game since ever has featured this. Especially MMOs.

    There's plenty of shallow MMOs catering to super casuals. Pick one, and leave us in peace.
    Catibrie


  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,121
    Anyone who liked the acclimation system as shown, stop for a moment and think about how easy it would be to take that system and transform it into a cash shop item, despite their promises.  I'm not saying that VR is planning that, but that certainly seems like an easy item to monetize should that decision change.

    To me, this is nothing more than maximizing your resistances in the Luclin / PoP era.  Don't have it, you die.  Have it, you may proceed with your raid.  It isn't new as a concept or implementation.  How this is a point of difference baffles me.  Even rides at theme parks have had the "You must be this tall to ride this ride" signs since the 1970s.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • DMKanoDMKano Member LegendaryPosts: 20,648

    Mendel said:

    Anyone who liked the acclimation system as shown, stop for a moment and think about how easy it would be to take that system and transform it into a cash shop item, despite their promises.  I'm not saying that VR is planning that, but that certainly seems like an easy item to monetize should that decision change.

    To me, this is nothing more than maximizing your resistances in the Luclin / PoP era.  Don't have it, you die.  Have it, you may proceed with your raid.  It isn't new as a concept or implementation.  How this is a point of difference baffles me.  Even rides at theme parks have had the "You must be this tall to ride this ride" signs since the 1970s.



    The resistance system is very similar to resistance system in Korean MMOs like Devilian - tiered resistances, lower much easier to obtain than higher tier and each resistance type (fire, ice, poison) has its own tiers and progression.


  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,336
    edited April 2017



    Dullahan said:



    Vorthanion said:





    Yes, but in the context of their very own description, it's ultimately a gate locking mechanism for raid type content or anything with decent loot.  I'm sure this is to stroke those elite player egos, by making the unlocking process so unbearably tedious, that only no-lifers will reach those tier 3, 4 and 5 areas and raids.





    Ooo, gating. Ooo, locking! You're just using extreme language to describe progression that exists in every game. Whether it's items, levels, player skill, time, or a mix. Every game since ever has featured this. Especially MMOs.

    There's plenty of shallow MMOs catering to super casuals. Pick one, and leave us in peace.




    ------------------------------------- (the quote seems broken for some reason)


    Please enlighten me in how non-casual locking something behind a check mark this is. Because to me making a flat check mark is the most casual mechanics something could have.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited April 2017


    Dullahan said:

    Vorthanion said:



    Yes, but in the context of their very own description, it's ultimately a gate locking mechanism for raid type content or anything with decent loot.  I'm sure this is to stroke those elite player egos, by making the unlocking process so unbearably tedious, that only no-lifers will reach those tier 3, 4 and 5 areas and raids.



    Ooo, gating. Ooo, locking! You're just using extreme language to describe progression that exists in every game. Whether it's items, levels, player skill, time, or a mix. Every game since ever has featured this. Especially MMOs.

    There's plenty of shallow MMOs catering to super casuals. Pick one, and leave us in peace.


    There's nothing more shallow in my eyes than putting time extending mechanics onto features like that. As there's no more mediocre way to extend play time than that. This is the biggest problem with most of those casual games you're directing players toward. They don't have interesting game-play mechanics, they use crutches like that to make it seems as though there is more game than there actually is. 
    Catibrie

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 6,944
    They could dupe everything that was in EQ and Vanguard and this crowd would be going oooo and ahhhh
  • XodicXodic Member RarePosts: 933
    edited April 2017
    You might compare the acclimation system to farming resist gear in preparation for certain EQ raids, which is fine. They did stress that acclimation was in a very early stage of development, but from what I can see there isn't a good direction to take it from here, at least not one that I would have preferred. I thought it was going to add a level of immersion and that just doesn't appear to be the case. 
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,321
    Wow Nan that is a lot of work you put in thank you for breaking it down and linking the answers. Good job!
    image
  • DarLorkarDarLorkar Member UncommonPosts: 1,082

    cheyane said:

    Wow Nan that is a lot of work you put in thank you for breaking it down and linking the answers. Good job!


    Yup Salute Nan, game is not for me, but nice job. Hope it all works out for everyone.
  • blueturtle13blueturtle13 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,769

    DarLorkar said:



    cheyane said:


    Wow Nan that is a lot of work you put in thank you for breaking it down and linking the answers. Good job!




    Yup Salute Nan, game is not for me, but nice job. Hope it all works out for everyone.


    Agreed. Game is not my kind of game anymore but I wish the game and it's fans well =)
    Catibrie

    거북이는 목을 내밀 때 안 움직입니다












  • Tiamat64Tiamat64 Member RarePosts: 1,509
    Hopefully the gating isn't as bad as Wildstar originally was, where tons of hardcore raiders quit when they realized they'd have to run the same boring non-raid dungeons over and over again before they're even allowed to enter the raids.
  • XiaokiXiaoki Member RarePosts: 3,215

    Mendel said:



    The really big complaint I have is against the game play.  It is still the basic play as we saw in EQ1.  A group engages a single mob, while extra mobs are pacified and a healer tries to keep everyone alive.  From a CC perspective, whatever CC method (rogues, I believe) lasted far too long.  In one instance, one mob waited for more than 2 minutes, and was instantly taunted to the tank.  I suspect that the mez and the taunt are both overpowered.  That can be adjusted, and desperately needs to be.  I'd like to see mez increase the hate against the mezzer the longer the mob stays mezzed


    Yeah, the combat still doesnt look good.

    The fans of the game use ridiculous Strawman Arguments like "us OLD SCHOOL people dont want any of that bunnyhop Dance Dance Revolution combat".

    ...O ...K

    But, is standing in one place pressing a button every few seconds while the tank never loses aggro and the crowd controlled enemies never break better?

    I would say its far worse.

    They argue its "more strategic" but I saw absolutely no high level strategic gameplay in any of the combat seen in Pantheon.

    Hopefully they improve the combat and make it a bit more difficult and challenging but I dont think the fans would like that.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,431
    Too bad they aren't in the Alpha phase of development. I mean, since it's launching soon, they won't have time to alter anything.

    /rolls eyes

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,336

    Rhoklaw said:

    Too bad they aren't in the Alpha phase of development. I mean, since it's launching soon, they won't have time to alter anything.

    /rolls eyes


    Well the discussion is about what we see now and we hope they improve. Nobody here said otherwise.

    Not talking about it wouldn't help either so I don't see your point.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,783
    We'll see how it goes but by comparison I'm already excited about crowfall but pantheon hasn't managed to grab my attention yet....and I backed both...and crowfall is even newer in terms of development.  Not a great sign, or perhaps a testament to how well crowfall is coming along.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516

    Distopia said:




    Dullahan said:

    Vorthanion said:



    Yes, but in the context of their very own description, it's ultimately a gate locking mechanism for raid type content or anything with decent loot.  I'm sure this is to stroke those elite player egos, by making the unlocking process so unbearably tedious, that only no-lifers will reach those tier 3, 4 and 5 areas and raids.



    Ooo, gating. Ooo, locking! You're just using extreme language to describe progression that exists in every game. Whether it's items, levels, player skill, time, or a mix. Every game since ever has featured this. Especially MMOs.

    There's plenty of shallow MMOs catering to super casuals. Pick one, and leave us in peace.


    There's nothing more shallow in my eyes than putting time extending mechanics onto features like that. As there's no more mediocre way to extend play time than that. This is the biggest problem with most of those casual games you're directing players toward. They don't have interesting game-play mechanics, they use crutches like that to make it seems as though there is more game than there actually is. 


    You could make the same argument for gating content behind levels. There has to be a way of allowing players to access more content based on some sort of prerequisite.

    Not only is that the way games have always worked, it's also the way real life works. Go ahead and try to apply for any high level career position without first being educated in the field or having experience in a similar position. That job isn't going to be unlocked for you.
    Catibrie


  • LIOKILIOKI Member UncommonPosts: 421

    Nanfoodle said:



    LIOKI said:
    I'll metric myself to whatever I want. You are why we can't have nice things. You don't see the point of my comments and I don't see your point on rewarding mediocrity. You keep settling for sub-par though and I'll keep pointing out the trash.




    Point out trash all you want but its a fact, your perspective is not one I agree with. Im sure if you started telling me about your fav action twitched base game. The very reasons you like it will be the very reasons I am sick of them. Many like myself have been waiting 10 years + for a modern update on EQ1 and what made it awesome. EQ1 is what made every MMO after be a thing because of how well it did. It time we went grass roots on an MMO.  


    I want those things as well. I'm not here pushing back on the mechanics that made earlier games great. You misconstrue what I am saying. There is absolutely no logical reason why a game must have one thing that's great and sacrifice something else in return other than lack of ability within the development team. I assure you I wish for the glory days as much as the next junkie does but I will not look at a product and ignore obvious shortcomings and be happy about promised mechanics.

    Maybe this will be the steppingstone they need to learn how to make a good mmorpg and get some real funding without having to beg for it. Until then this game is half baked and half assed no matter how fervently you defend it.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,336
    edited April 2017


    Dullahan said:





    Distopia said:








    Dullahan said:

    Vorthanion said:



    Yes, but in the context of their very own description, it's ultimately a gate locking mechanism for raid type content or anything with decent loot.  I'm sure this is to stroke those elite player egos, by making the unlocking process so unbearably tedious, that only no-lifers will reach those tier 3, 4 and 5 areas and raids.



    Ooo, gating. Ooo, locking! You're just using extreme language to describe progression that exists in every game. Whether it's items, levels, player skill, time, or a mix. Every game since ever has featured this. Especially MMOs.

    There's plenty of shallow MMOs catering to super casuals. Pick one, and leave us in peace.


    There's nothing more shallow in my eyes than putting time extending mechanics onto features like that. As there's no more mediocre way to extend play time than that. This is the biggest problem with most of those casual games you're directing players toward. They don't have interesting game-play mechanics, they use crutches like that to make it seems as though there is more game than there actually is. 






    You could make the same argument for gating content behind levels. There has to be a way of allowing players to access more content based on some sort of prerequisite.

    Not only is that the way games have always worked, it's also the way real life works. Go ahead and try to apply for any high level career position without first being educated in the field or having experience in a similar position. That job isn't going to be unlocked for you.


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (again quote box not working for me for some reason)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    But thats the whole point we are trying to make: The act of gating a content, regardless behind what, is not a good thing from old schools mmo.

    That's like making a old school 8bit platformer and focusing on bad controls. That's not the charm. That's the bad bit.

    They could make it an engaging mechanic, regardless the way they chose to do so, instead of what we have now - - and keep the old school charm of it.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    edited April 2017


    Nyctelios said:


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (again quote box not working for me for some reason)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    But thats the whole point we are trying to make: The act of gating a content, regardless behind what, is not a good thing from old schools mmo.

    That's like making a old school 8bit platformer and focusing on bad controls. That's not the charm. That's the bad bit.

    They could make it an engaging mechanic, regardless the way they chose to do so, instead of what we have now - - and keep the old school charm of it.




    Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.

    The reasoning behind removal of progression is pure entitlement.


  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,336
    edited April 2017


    Dullahan said:





    Nyctelios said:



    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (again quote box not working for me for some reason)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------




    But thats the whole point we are trying to make: The act of gating a content, regardless behind what, is not a good thing from old schools mmo.

    That's like making a old school 8bit platformer and focusing on bad controls. That's not the charm. That's the bad bit.

    They could make it an engaging mechanic, regardless the way they chose to do so, instead of what we have now - - and keep the old school charm of it.






    Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.



    What do you mean by "no reason to do anything"? Are you playing to experience a world and to adventure or to check marks and pet yourself on your shoulder and tell how good boy you are once you complete a check mark?

    I'm confused now.

    How does changing gameplay to engage players results to "no reason" to do something?
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516

    Nyctelios said:




    Dullahan said:







    Nyctelios said:




    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (again quote box not working for me for some reason)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------





    But thats the whole point we are trying to make: The act of gating a content, regardless behind what, is not a good thing from old schools mmo.

    That's like making a old school 8bit platformer and focusing on bad controls. That's not the charm. That's the bad bit.

    They could make it an engaging mechanic, regardless the way they chose to do so, instead of what we have now - - and keep the old school charm of it.








    Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.




    What do you mean by "no reason to do anything"? Are you playing to experience a world and to adventure or to check marks and pet yourself on your shoulder and tell how good boy you are once you complete a check mark?

    I'm confused now.

    How does changing gameplay to engage players results to "no reason" to do something?

    It's pretty simple there, comrade. If everyone is entitled to do everything, it doesn't really mean much at that point, now does it?

    Without a system of advancement in place, your achievements mean significantly less. It's not that hard to understand for those of us not subscribing to socialist doctrines.
    Catibrie


  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,336
    edited April 2017


    Dullahan said:





    Nyctelios said:








    Dullahan said:











    Nyctelios said:






    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (again quote box not working for me for some reason)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------







    But thats the whole point we are trying to make: The act of gating a content, regardless behind what, is not a good thing from old schools mmo.

    That's like making a old school 8bit platformer and focusing on bad controls. That's not the charm. That's the bad bit.

    They could make it an engaging mechanic, regardless the way they chose to do so, instead of what we have now - - and keep the old school charm of it.












    Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.






    What do you mean by "no reason to do anything"? Are you playing to experience a world and to adventure or to check marks and pet yourself on your shoulder and tell how good boy you are once you complete a check mark?

    I'm confused now.

    How does changing gameplay to engage players results to "no reason" to do something?



    It's pretty simple there, comrade. If everyone is entitled to do everything, it doesn't really mean much at that point, now does it?

    Without a system of advancement in place, your achievements mean significantly less. It's not that hard to understand for those of us not subscribing to socialist doctrines.




    And how does locking content prevent everyone to do everything if the requirements have no urgency or player skill behind it, just a check mark?

    It seems to me that anyone can do that.

    And second: I'm not socialist nor mocking me will improve your point.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516

    Nyctelios said:




    And how does locking content prevent everyone to do everything if the requirements have no urgency or player skill behind it, just a check mark?

    It seems to me that anyone can do that.

    And second: I'm not socialist nor mocking me will improve your point.


    Strawman. I never said player skill should not be involved. I'm not proposing anything as shallow as what you're suggesting.

    You play the game, it simulates experience and knowledge (which can, at times be represented by checkmarks). With that, you gain access to new things. Whether it's levels or any other form of gating, that is what keeps people playing. It should require time, knowledge and skill of the player.

    And whether you know it or not, you've been indoctrinated.
    Catibrie


  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 26,793

    Dullahan said:



    Nyctelios said:






    Dullahan said:









    Nyctelios said:





    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    (again quote box not working for me for some reason)
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------






    But thats the whole point we are trying to make: The act of gating a content, regardless behind what, is not a good thing from old schools mmo.

    That's like making a old school 8bit platformer and focusing on bad controls. That's not the charm. That's the bad bit.

    They could make it an engaging mechanic, regardless the way they chose to do so, instead of what we have now - - and keep the old school charm of it.










    Of course it's a good thing. Without gating, also known as progression, there would be no reason to do anything. Everything in real life is gated. Without that framework, your achievements wouldn't mean shit.





    What do you mean by "no reason to do anything"? Are you playing to experience a world and to adventure or to check marks and pet yourself on your shoulder and tell how good boy you are once you complete a check mark?

    I'm confused now.

    How does changing gameplay to engage players results to "no reason" to do something?


    It's pretty simple there, comrade. If everyone is entitled to do everything, it doesn't really mean much at that point, now does it?

    Without a system of advancement in place, your achievements mean significantly less. It's not that hard to understand for those of us not subscribing to socialist doctrines.


    I agree and disagree. I don't believe in gating. At all. But I do believe that player should be able to take on harder content.

    It's not about being entitled to do everything, it's about having the chance to do anything and everything and you fail or succeed on your own merits.

    It means more to be less powerful but to achieve greater things. The achievements should be about one's ability to surmount overwhelming adversity, not just about being the right level.

    This is not to say I'm against leveling. I'm not. Love it actually. But I'm more for an open world and people can pick and choose their challenges and fail or succeed on their own merit.
    Catibrie



  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,336

    Dullahan said:



    Nyctelios said:






    And how does locking content prevent everyone to do everything if the requirements have no urgency or player skill behind it, just a check mark?

    It seems to me that anyone can do that.

    And second: I'm not socialist nor mocking me will improve your point.




    Strawman. I never said player skill should not be involved. I'm not proposing anything as shallow as what you're suggesting.

    You play the game, it simulates experience and knowledge (which can, at times be represented by checkmarks). With that, you gain access to new things. Whether it's levels or any other form of gating, that is what keeps people playing. It should require time, knowledge and skill of the player.

    And whether you know it or not, you've been indoctrinated.


    Socialism, indocrinated... Wtf?

    I'm not talking about what you said. This thread is about what they shown on the stream and the mechanics shown do not require player skill.

    Dude, tune down a little, ok?
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
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