Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Care Bears Can Kill (If PVP was Fair and Competitive)

cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
edited May 2017 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Open pvp is only sustainable if there are consequences for behaving like a wolf or a criminal.  Not that people shouldn't be able to play villains.  In fact, I believe they should be.  But it shouldn't be an easy and risk free practice to go around preying on weaklings and noobs.  If real effort isn't put into making pvp fair and competitive, it usually dissolves into some sort of gankfest.  Pvp in real life may not be fair, but most mmorpgs are far from any realistic simulation of real life.  And if combat in pvp was really supposed to be like real life, my character could kill anyone else's character with one well-placed hit.  And that character would stay dead.  I could hide an archer up some tree or in the window of an abandoned building and snipe passer-byes all day long.

A villain usually has better things to do then going around waylaying random people, like seeking some kind of ultimate power, plotting world domination, overthrowing a kingdom, or seeking revenge against a hated foe.

The kind of people that like to rob and/or kill for pleasure, profit, or no reason at all are usually described as thugs, gangsters, serial killers, or psychopaths.  There are laws and police in place to attempt to restrain the activities of such people.  People should be allowed to behave like that if they want to in a game, as villains often need minions to do their dirty work.  But the way pvp is implemented in most games, the kind of criminal, predatory behavior often associated with bullies is not only usually without meaningful consequence, but even encouraged and rewarded.

Until games are actually some kind of logical and realistic representation of life, I believe pvp should be considered more of a sport than anything else.  Sports have rules in order to attempt to make them fair.  People still try to cheat, and sometimes succeed in doing so without getting caught, but few to none would want to play them or watch them if there were no rules at all.  I don't think anyone would find a game between Major League baseball players and Little Leaguers to be interesting, unless, perhaps, they are sadistic in some way.

EDIT:  Unless it is in self-defense, in the line of duty for a police officer (except in cases where the perpetrator is unarmed or not fighting back), or occurs during legal warfare, killing people is generally considered a crime.  I do believe games should reflect this principle.  But, "oh, come on, it's just a game", someone may say?  That may very well be, but if that's a person's attitude, he or she (usually he) shouldn't expect me or most other reasonable people to want to participate in the predatory fantasies of the gankers.

EDIT #2:  My definition of Ganker - Those who aren't really looking for a challenge in PvP and just want to prey on weaklings and noobs.  Or people that will repeatedly kill the same player-character for no reason other than that they're there  (or someone who has zero chance of defeating them in any case - and usually the person won't have much opportunity for revenge in the near future).  I think killing should have a purpose beyond the pure enjoyment of killing.  But maybe that's just me.

My definition of Unfair in MMORPG PvP: 
Losing to someone just because they've played longer, played more hours, or paid more money and have thus become far more powerful than I can hope to be without playing for months or years or paying an equal amount of money.  I can compete with people's wallets all day long in the real world if I like.  If I haven't played a sport as long as someone else, I probably won't be placed in the same league as them.  Unless I am sort of genius or prodigy.  To be more precise, I don't want to be an ant fighting against gods because I haven't played as long as someone else.  There are advantages one might gain by spending more time with any particular activity, just like in the real world, but they shouldn't make a person unbeatable.  I should have a chance of moving up from the Minor Leagues to the Major Leagues rapidly if I have the talent and the skill.  Baseball players aren't allowed to use corked bats in games, and they certainly wouldn't be able to use a magical bat that always hit a home run every time they swung at a pitch. 

Now if someone outsmarts me or outnumbers me*, fine, that can happen.  Wandering out in the wilderness alone is not the greatest idea most of the time.

*Or maneuvers better or plans better, whatever.  Basically I want things like wits and skill, tactics and teamwork to play a larger part in PvP than anything else.

EDIT #3:  My goal with this thread is exploring the possibilities of how an mmorpg could be made into a true role-playing game similar to pencil-and-paper rpgs, without the need for incredibly advanced artificial intelligence or virtual reality.  I believe open world PvP is an essential element in doing so.  Realm vs Realm as opposed to a free-for-all (though the community a player belongs to doesn't necessarily need to be a kingdom, there can be smaller and larger units), but people could choose to leave their community as well.  There are more details and ideas in my other posts.  And in the posts of others.
Post edited by cantankerousmage on
«13456

Comments

  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,385
    I think that red name making full drop on death are quite reasonable answer for open pvp.

    It is both a risk and a sense of pride like "I'm so fucking evil and badass that I'm walking around with a bright red name and nobody dares to attack me! NOBODY!"

    And, in older games, made tons of community content and story.

    Like the "Revenge of the Newbs" in old Mu Online (Global server), where my friend lost his character (Dragon Knight or something) and they gave him an Elf of same level but with stats to spend. So he did the very first full Spirit Elf, which is impossible to level, but since Spirit adds on buffs and Elf can buff Attack (damage) and Defense (armor) he turned every little player in the game a godlike creature, including noobs. So he went north exit from main town and stood there buffing everyone who passed through and all those noobs went in a killing spree against the high level dudes with red names who enjoyed killing them on that starting zone.

    That was a crazy weekend I tell you.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    Sounds interesting.  I do definitely believe the Ultima Online system is worth building on and improving.  But death needs to have penalties that hurt for it work.  I believe Ultima went south when they removed the harsh death penatly, is that correct?
  • XodicXodic Member RarePosts: 940


    Sounds interesting.  I do definitely believe the Ultima Online system is worth building on and improving.  But death needs to have penalties that hurt for it work.  I believe Ultima went south when they removed the harsh death penatly, is that correct?


    UO went south when they decided to split their players into PvP and non-PvP worlds. Essentially taking away the prey from the crooks and taking away the sense of danger for the 'carebears'.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,385


    Sounds interesting.  I do definitely believe the Ultima Online system is worth building on and improving.  But death needs to have penalties that hurt for it work.  I believe Ultima went south when they removed the harsh death penatly, is that correct?


    Sorry, can't tell. I played UO late since I only got a PC when I was older.

    In case of MU full drop hurt a lot since making a perfect geat (+12 +luck + options) was almost impossible - - and to be a red name walking around you would have to keep up with the gear upgrades.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited April 2017


    Xodic said:








    Sounds interesting.  I do definitely believe the Ultima Online system is worth building on and improving.  But death needs to have penalties that hurt for it work.  I believe Ultima went south when they removed the harsh death penatly, is that correct?




    UO went south when they decided to split their players into PvP and non-PvP worlds. Essentially taking away the prey from the crooks and taking away the sense of danger for the 'carebears'.




    I'm sure that played a big part too, but I'm a fan of death penalties in games.  The first mmorpg I played was Runes of Magic.  A crappy game overall, but I lost a lot experience when I died, which made it so I didn't really want to die, was sometimes actually afraid to die, especially when that experience debt started to add up.  I read somewhere that the removal of or lessening of the (stat loss?) death penalty in UO was also a major reason for its eventual downfall.  I wasn't playing mmorpgs back then (even though I certainly old enough), so I can't say with 100% certainty what went wrong with that game.
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited April 2017



    Nyctelios said:











    Sounds interesting.  I do definitely believe the Ultima Online system is worth building on and improving.  But death needs to have penalties that hurt for it work.  I believe Ultima went south when they removed the harsh death penatly, is that correct?








    Sorry, can't tell. I played UO late since I only got a PC when I was older.

    In case of MU full drop hurt a lot since making a perfect geat (+12 +luck + options) was almost impossible - - and to be a red name walking around you would have to keep up with the gear upgrades.



    Cool.  I just never played it, even though I could have.  Stat loss and full drop is fine with me.  Some experience debt can be thrown in as well.  But I also think mmorpgs need to move away from the idea that most our characters' power is derived mostly from equipment.  In the real world, as well as fantasy world (in novels and movies, etc.), there is a limit to how much power one can gain from gear, whether mundane or magical or technologically advanced.  I also don't like unlimited amounts of equipment and resources to craft them.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,385




    Nyctelios said:








    Sounds interesting.  I do definitely believe the Ultima Online system is worth building on and improving.  But death needs to have penalties that hurt for it work.  I believe Ultima went south when they removed the harsh death penatly, is that correct?






    Sorry, can't tell. I played UO late since I only got a PC when I was older.

    In case of MU full drop hurt a lot since making a perfect geat (+12 +luck + options) was almost impossible - - and to be a red name walking around you would have to keep up with the gear upgrades.


    Cool.  I just never played it, even though I could have.  Stat loss and full drop is fine with me.  But I also think mmorpgs need to move away from the idea that most our characters' power is derived from equipment.  In the real world, and as well as fantasy world (in novels and movies, etc.), there is a limit to how much power one can gain from gear, whether mundane or magical or technologically advanced.  I also don't like unlimited amounts of equipment and resources to craft them.


    I agree. MU just suffered what almost all games suffered on that time: Software/Hardware limitations.

    It is easy to dictate gameplay with numbers rather than mechanics in that case. And it's not a good game to begin with. Just used it as an example of how it generates stories to talk over a beer with gamer friends.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Member RarePosts: 6,541
    Might be wrong but I thought UO increased in population after the split.
    Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992

    Nyctelios said:








    Nyctelios said:











    Sounds interesting.  I do definitely believe the Ultima Online system is worth building on and improving.  But death needs to have penalties that hurt for it work.  I believe Ultima went south when they removed the harsh death penatly, is that correct?








    Sorry, can't tell. I played UO late since I only got a PC when I was older.

    In case of MU full drop hurt a lot since making a perfect geat (+12 +luck + options) was almost impossible - - and to be a red name walking around you would have to keep up with the gear upgrades.



    Cool.  I just never played it, even though I could have.  Stat loss and full drop is fine with me.  But I also think mmorpgs need to move away from the idea that most our characters' power is derived from equipment.  In the real world, and as well as fantasy world (in novels and movies, etc.), there is a limit to how much power one can gain from gear, whether mundane or magical or technologically advanced.  I also don't like unlimited amounts of equipment and resources to craft them.




    I agree. MU just suffered what almost all games suffered on that time: Software/Hardware limitations.

    It is easy to dictate gameplay with numbers rather than mechanics in that case. And it's not a good game to begin with. Just used it as an example of how it generates stories to talk over a beer with gamer friends.


    I understand.  I played a couple different MUDs before I played mmorpgs.
  • ianicusianicus Member UncommonPosts: 656
    different stokes I guess
    "Well let me just quote the late-great Colonel Sanders, who said…’I’m too drunk to taste this chicken." - Ricky Bobby
  • XodicXodic Member RarePosts: 940


    Might be wrong but I thought UO increased in population after the split.

    It did, but it was steadily growing prior to Trammel, even during EQ years. To say that Trammel was the reason for continued growth isn't a fair assessment. Another analysis would be to say that after Trammel was released, the growth rate slowed by 50,000 players per year. That's saying a lot, because it's impossible to walk away from a one year sub and damn hard to walk away from a keep/castle full of loot that you gathered over 3 years just for it to deteriorate when you cancel your subscription and fail to refresh it.

    Image result for uo sub numbers
  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768

    Xodic said:





    Might be wrong but I thought UO increased in population after the split.


    It did, but it was steadily growing prior to Trammel, even during EQ years. To say that Trammel was the reason for continued growth isn't a fair assessment. Another analysis would be to say that after Trammel was released, the growth rate slowed by 50,000 players per year. That's saying a lot, because it's impossible to walk away from a one year sub and damn hard to walk away from a keep/castle full of loot that you gathered over 3 years just for it to deteriorate when you cancel your subscription and fail to refresh it.

    Image result for uo sub numbers



    FYI,
    the mmogchart guy was pulling numbers out of his butt.
    http://www.youhaventlived.com/qblog/2010/QBlog190810A.html  

    Epic Music:   https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAigCvelkhQ&list=PLo9FRw1AkDuQLEz7Gvvaz3ideB2NpFtT1

    https://archive.org/details/softwarelibrary_msdos?&sort=-downloads&page=1

    Kyleran:  "Now there's the real trick, learning to accept and enjoy a game for what it offers rather than pass on what might be a great playing experience because it lacks a few features you prefer."

    John Henry Newman: "A man would do nothing if he waited until he could do it so well that no one could find fault."

    FreddyNoNose:  "A good game needs no defense; a bad game has no defense." "Easily digested content is just as easily forgotten."

    LacedOpium: "So the question that begs to be asked is, if you are not interested in the game mechanics that define the MMORPG genre, then why are you playing an MMORPG?"




  • DarLorkarDarLorkar Member UncommonPosts: 1,082


    Might be wrong but I thought UO increased in population after the split.


    Not only that, but they would never of made the change without lots of feedback from customers who were leaving because of the terrible way they handled pvp. 

    Red people running around naked, losing nothing but a bag with a few reagents, or a sword or bow and arrows, if they died going on killing spree's was hurting the game quite badly. 

    These "police yourselves" games rarely work out like the dev's and others like to think in the end. And saying that it hurt UO to create a safe world is nonsense. 

    It hurt the naked red players that were there to ruin others game fun. It was as simple as go to a portal and enter to go to the other world and have some pvp action. Only issue was that people that were there were prepared to fight back not just be a victim like in the original one world UO.

    Not much fun for the so called "Red pvpers" when they have to fight others that are prepared. 

    As to the OP...as i stated above, police yourselves type games mostly fail, as to the policing part, in the end. They turn into  worlds of anarchy or armed camps, where you stay in large groups to do much.  

    The worst part of it though, is that there is  rarely enough money to do the games right, as in, you need to really make and keep separate rule systems for PVE players and PVP players.

    But most dev's try to balance them with one set of rules and that breeds the constant boost and nerf type of development that gets very frustrating for a lot of people.  You constantly are fighting the rules to get them to apply to both game play styles. Very hard to do and i can not think of many games that have been able to pull that off in full pvp games.


  • skadadskadad Member UncommonPosts: 374
    "real" open world pvp players do not want to pvp, they want to gank, gank alot. With advantages such as gear or multiple people against one. There is no wonder open world pvp games are not as popular as others.
  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited April 2017
    In Lineage 2, I was called a carebear nonstop (because I wouldn't accept a challenge of 1vs100). But I was also called a raid boss, osama bin laden, best pvper, and many other hardcore crap I didn't care for.

    Carebear was a term used for people who would not be willing to defend themselves or their friends, when they actually had the power to do so. Then it became a term for people who didn't want to pvp at all. Not even sure it's a term used these days (since ever game is so god damn protective).

    Most people who used this term were trolls and griefers trying to get an emotional rise out of another player (who was always at an unfair disadvantage).

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited April 2017



    skadad said:



    "real" open world pvp players do not want to pvp, they want to gank, gank alot. With advantages such as gear or multiple people against one. There is no wonder open world pvp games are not as popular as others.






    I agree.  Most pvpers do not want to compete.  They want to prey on weaklings and noobs.  They do not want a fair and competitive system.  But if we ever want our mmorpgs to be anything close to true role-playing games, I do believe we need to find a way to make open world pvp work in a way that will appeal to more than a small minority of players.  And for that, we need systems and rules that will facilitate making pking a crime with consequences.  In a way that all the players in the virtual world will view it as such.  It is actually easier to be evil than to be good in the real world.  Evil people don't care about morality, integrity, or honor (though there is the rare case of a villain with some kind of honor code), so they are willing to do whatever it takes to get to the top.  That's why criminals and tyrants usually end up running things.  Decent people, who try to be good, don't normally seek power unless or until they are forced to in order to combat the evil people who are oppressing them.  That's why the hero in most stories usually has an uphill battle when he or she decides to stop a villain from accomplishing goals or to remove a villain from power.  But if we want to make a game that's fun to play, we have to make it just as hard or even harder to be evil than it is to be good.  Of course, that's just my opinion.
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited April 2017


    Vardahoth said:


    In Lineage 2, I was called a carebear nonstop (because I wouldn't accept a challenge of 1vs100). But I was also called a raid boss, osama bin laden, best pvper, and many other hardcore crap I didn't care for.

    Carebear was a term used for people who would not be willing to defend themselves or their friends, when they actually had the power to do so. Then it became a term for people who didn't want to pvp at all. Not even sure it's a term used these days (since ever game is so god damn protective).

    Most people who used this term were trolls and griefers trying to get an emotional rise out of another player (who was always at an unfair disadvantage).




    This isn't directed toward you personally, but I added this to my original post:

    EDIT:  Unless it is in self-defense, in the line of duty for a police officer (except in cases where the perpetrator is unarmed or not fighting back), or occurs during legal warfare, killing people is generally considered a crime.  I do believe games should reflect this principle.  But, "oh, come on, it's just a game", someone may say?  That may very well be, but if that's a person's attitude, he or she (usually he) shouldn't expect me or most other reasonable people to want to participate in the psychotic, predatory fantasies of the gankers.

    I am tired of being coddled in virtual worlds, that's why I want to make pvp actually work in a way that's fun for the majority of people.

    Post edited by cantankerousmage on
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,822
    I like how in some RPG's that if you go around killing NPC's, the police come after you.  If you're op enough to beat the police, they send out special units.  It would be nice if MMO's had some sort of response that escalated, just like that.  The closest I've seen to that is ESO, where you can be attached by guards and town people if caught stealing or killing, or AA when you go to court and jail if discovered.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited April 2017




    I like how in some RPG's that if you go around killing NPC's, the police come after you.  If you're op enough to beat the police, they send out special units.  It would be nice if MMO's had some sort of response that escalated, just like that.  The closest I've seen to that is ESO, where you can be attached by guards and town people if caught stealing or killing, or AA when you go to court and jail if discovered.




    NPCs can play a part in enforcing laws in games, this is true.  Besides, the garrisons in such places as towns and cities, there can even be NPC units that patrol the regions close to their settlements.  Our characters can have a lot more freedom as long as there are meaningful consequences when they are caught committing crimes or engaging in any sort of illegal activity.  Being imprisoned or even executed is possible.  After all, if one character is rotting in a dungeon cell for certain period of time, people can usually play another character.  Not saying we need to go that far, necessarily, but it's not as if it isn't possible.  We are already allowed to kill each other's characters in games.  What worse can we do to a person's character besides that?  (Okay, certain things like rape, torture, and other really heinous acts shouldn't be permitted.)
    Post edited by cantankerousmage on
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    There is some really good conversation going on in this thread.

    Pinches self to see if awake......
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992


    There is some really good conversation going on in this thread.

    Pinches self to see if awake......


    I want things like a rogue who is able to pickpockets and pick locks.  I want him or her to be able to get arrested or run out of town if he or she gets caught.  Maybe even wanted posters on building walls.  Bounty hunters.  Being able to hire assassins.  The possibility of trying to break your partner-in-crime out of jail.  And the ability for my most likely more law-abiding character to cause trouble for the deviants.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    The whole thing depends on how you define a "carebear". Heck, people have called me a carebear since I enjoy combat where I can either win or loose depending on my skill while I think combat I can't win and loose as boring.

    Of course those are the people who get their kicks from killing noobs that can't fight back, I have some names for those people as well. If there is no challenge then the games mechanics just suck

    If care bears are the people that hate PvP and enjoy it then no, they wont kill other players because they don't bother entering PvP zones or games with full PvP. If they are people who think the huge powergap in most MMOs suck then yes, they can kill and probably does it better then the people who prefer targeting people who can't fight back.
  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992
    edited April 2017


    Loke666 said:


    The whole thing depends on how you define a "carebear". Heck, people have called me a carebear since I enjoy combat where I can either win or loose depending on my skill while I think combat I can't win and loose as boring.

    Of course those are the people who get their kicks from killing noobs that can't fight back, I have some names for those people as well. If there is no challenge then the games mechanics just suck

    If care bears are the people that hate PvP and enjoy it then no, they wont kill other players because they don't bother entering PvP zones or games with full PvP. If they are people who think the huge powergap in most MMOs suck then yes, they can kill and probably does it better then the people who prefer targeting people who can't fight back.




    I agree with what you're saying.  I don't call people carebears, but I've been called it just because I asked in zone chat in a game if there are any mmorpgs with fair and competitive pvp, or mentioned that there's not much effort put into making it that way in mmorpgs.  Something to that effect.

    I'm not into defeating or dominating someone that has no chance of winning against me.
  • AAAMEOWAAAMEOW Member UncommonPosts: 1,058
    The is nothing wrong with gankfest game.

    What's wrong is people expect it to become mainstream which it never will.


  • cantankerousmagecantankerousmage Member UncommonPosts: 992

    AAAMEOW said:

    The is nothing wrong with gankfest game.

    What's wrong is people expect it to become mainstream which it never will.




    I don't expect that a gankfest game will ever be mainstream.  But I'm interested in making open world pvp that doesn't become a gankfest.
Sign In or Register to comment.