Man that game looks like garbage lol, they actually showed that, I would be ashamed to show that to people. It makes everquest 1 animations look good. If your goal was to get people not to want to play it, well you got me not to want to play it.
for your delight in viewing - actual eq1 prealpha footage for comparison:
Huge fan of guess math (^_-) why should I trust your math and guesses over the people at Pantheon who have been in the business at least a little longer then you?
You don't have to trust my math. The point is (and always has been) that there are several ways of interpreting the information that Pantheon is providing, not just the 'corporate' view. Do you really want to support a company that is stingy to it's employees, keeping salaries and benefits down, just to meet some marketing promise? I had pegged you as a bit more altruistic than that.
It's a legitimate question -- can Visionary Realms really survive with only 25,000 subscribers?
Wasn't going to but if you insist. In your math you miss the small point that you need way more staff to make an MMO then to keep it running. That's why most MMO launch and then lay off a large number of staff. My point is your guess work is given from little experience and I could pick it apart further. I'm sure VR CFO has a plan born from education and experience. If they say they can function with 25'000 subs who are you to question it? What is the point of questioning it?
Also as pointed out above there is a good chance they won't be running at the bare minimum. Fans of EQ1 and Vanguard have been begging SoE for a modern MMO just like Pantheon and has fallen on defeat ears for 10 years. EQ2 does not count as it's play style is no where near the same. Look at the following and hype EQN got on their announcement of the project. How the hype died when they saw it was not a successor of EQ1. Pantheon fills a long wanted hole. If they pull it off it could be a thing of beauty.
First point. Yes, MMORPGs can operate with smaller staffs. Where are the 30 currently on the team going to go when the project is launched? I can tell you. They will begin working to develop an expansion pack. Why? Subscriptions rely on new content. Since those 30 people are going to be occupied with new development duties, VR is likely to need to hire additional staff for operational support. You think that VR's staff size is going to shrink because they go live? I don't.
Second point. Your projection is based purely on anecdotal evidence. I've asked many times where these hoards of people are that are going to step forward and give VR money. I can't identify them, and no one has bothered to attempt an answer. Yet, you continue to believe and use this unidentified group of people as 'proof' that Pantheon will be a great success. Field of Dreams might be a great, entertaining movie, but it's not a model for a sound business plan.
Ok maybe Pantheon won't follow the norm of every MMO to date that does not lay off staff shortly after it releases. Sure. As to evidence that there are tones of people lining up for Pantheon, I never said that. I said there is much hype when people see a possible rebirth of EQ1 that fans have been asking for since 2004 when they saw what Blizzard could do. SoE ignored that fan base. Fans of the combat style, CC, DPS, Support and Tank has not had a new MMO since DAoC. Before that EQ1. If and that was my point, if Pantheon pulls it off it will be a beautiful thing. This is something fans could get behind.
Huge fan of guess math (^_-) why should I trust your math and guesses over the people at Pantheon who have been in the business at least a little longer then you?
You don't have to trust my math. The point is (and always has been) that there are several ways of interpreting the information that Pantheon is providing, not just the 'corporate' view. Do you really want to support a company that is stingy to it's employees, keeping salaries and benefits down, just to meet some marketing promise? I had pegged you as a bit more altruistic than that.
It's a legitimate question -- can Visionary Realms really survive with only 25,000 subscribers?
Wasn't going to but if you insist. In your math you miss the small point that you need way more staff to make an MMO then to keep it running. That's why most MMO launch and then lay off a large number of staff. My point is your guess work is given from little experience and I could pick it apart further. I'm sure VR CFO has a plan born from education and experience. If they say they can function with 25'000 subs who are you to question it? What is the point of questioning it?
Also as pointed out above there is a good chance they won't be running at the bare minimum. Fans of EQ1 and Vanguard have been begging SoE for a modern MMO just like Pantheon and has fallen on defeat ears for 10 years. EQ2 does not count as it's play style is no where near the same. Look at the following and hype EQN got on their announcement of the project. How the hype died when they saw it was not a successor of EQ1. Pantheon fills a long wanted hole. If they pull it off it could be a thing of beauty.
First point. Yes, MMORPGs can operate with smaller staffs. Where are the 30 currently on the team going to go when the project is launched? I can tell you. They will begin working to develop an expansion pack. Why? Subscriptions rely on new content. Since those 30 people are going to be occupied with new development duties, VR is likely to need to hire additional staff for operational support. You think that VR's staff size is going to shrink because they go live? I don't.
Second point. Your projection is based purely on anecdotal evidence. I've asked many times where these hoards of people are that are going to step forward and give VR money. I can't identify them, and no one has bothered to attempt an answer. Yet, you continue to believe and use this unidentified group of people as 'proof' that Pantheon will be a great success. Field of Dreams might be a great, entertaining movie, but it's not a model for a sound business plan.
Ok maybe Pantheon won't follow the norm of every MMO to date that does not lay off staff shortly after it releases. Sure. As to evidence that there are tones of people lining up for Pantheon, I never said that. I said there is much hype when people see a possible rebirth of EQ1 that fans have been asking for since 2004 when they saw what Blizzard could do. SoE ignored that fan base. Fans of the combat style, CC, DPS, Support and Tank has not had a new MMO since DAoC. Before that EQ1. If and that was my point, if Pantheon pulls it off it will be a beautiful thing. This is something fans could get behind.
Where is this fan base of disgruntled EQ1 fans?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Huge fan of guess math (^_-) why should I trust your math and guesses over the people at Pantheon who have been in the business at least a little longer then you?
You don't have to trust my math. The point is (and always has been) that there are several ways of interpreting the information that Pantheon is providing, not just the 'corporate' view. Do you really want to support a company that is stingy to it's employees, keeping salaries and benefits down, just to meet some marketing promise? I had pegged you as a bit more altruistic than that.
It's a legitimate question -- can Visionary Realms really survive with only 25,000 subscribers?
Wasn't going to but if you insist. In your math you miss the small point that you need way more staff to make an MMO then to keep it running. That's why most MMO launch and then lay off a large number of staff. My point is your guess work is given from little experience and I could pick it apart further. I'm sure VR CFO has a plan born from education and experience. If they say they can function with 25'000 subs who are you to question it? What is the point of questioning it?
Also as pointed out above there is a good chance they won't be running at the bare minimum. Fans of EQ1 and Vanguard have been begging SoE for a modern MMO just like Pantheon and has fallen on defeat ears for 10 years. EQ2 does not count as it's play style is no where near the same. Look at the following and hype EQN got on their announcement of the project. How the hype died when they saw it was not a successor of EQ1. Pantheon fills a long wanted hole. If they pull it off it could be a thing of beauty.
First point. Yes, MMORPGs can operate with smaller staffs. Where are the 30 currently on the team going to go when the project is launched? I can tell you. They will begin working to develop an expansion pack. Why? Subscriptions rely on new content. Since those 30 people are going to be occupied with new development duties, VR is likely to need to hire additional staff for operational support. You think that VR's staff size is going to shrink because they go live? I don't.
Second point. Your projection is based purely on anecdotal evidence. I've asked many times where these hoards of people are that are going to step forward and give VR money. I can't identify them, and no one has bothered to attempt an answer. Yet, you continue to believe and use this unidentified group of people as 'proof' that Pantheon will be a great success. Field of Dreams might be a great, entertaining movie, but it's not a model for a sound business plan.
Ok maybe Pantheon won't follow the norm of every MMO to date that does not lay off staff shortly after it releases. Sure. As to evidence that there are tones of people lining up for Pantheon, I never said that. I said there is much hype when people see a possible rebirth of EQ1 that fans have been asking for since 2004 when they saw what Blizzard could do. SoE ignored that fan base. Fans of the combat style, CC, DPS, Support and Tank has not had a new MMO since DAoC. Before that EQ1. If and that was my point, if Pantheon pulls it off it will be a beautiful thing. This is something fans could get behind.
Where is this fan base of disgruntled EQ1 fans?
Im one right here. Want to see more, go read the threads on this forum when EQN was announced. EQ1 fans rejoiced, then look at the threads when people found out it would be more like a MOBA then EQ1. People were looking for EQ2 that EQ2 never was.
It is litterally impossible to make pure P2P work longterm.
Over time players leave - due to a many reasons, from not having enough time, to boredom, a new game release, friends leaving etc...
Over time the numbers decline and the new players coming in are so few (especially after several years) - you end up with negative profits.
There is no recovery.
On top of all this look at the overwhelming plethora of new games coming out, the market is saturated.
Not EvE, not WoW, not ANY game today can survive long term on pure subscription.
Pantheon cant either, at some point - most likely 6months to year they will need to supplement p2p with something to keep it profitable.
Yes, p2p is impossible in the box in which you dwell. You seem to think every game is going to be subject to the same limitations of the current variety of MMOs which are not built for community or long-term play. That will simply not be the case with Pantheon, so comparing it to the short-term games that people jump back and forth from is a fallacious comparison.
It's not some mysterious reason why people leave games. The vast majority of the people who leave games do it because a) there's so many games just like it to play, b) the games offer very limited content which can be achieved with very little time devoted, and seldom requires coordination with other players, c) they cannot hold the player's attention long enough for them to establish a bond with the game, it's world, and it's players, d) or they are just poorly constructed and created to milk people with cash shops in short bursts -- by design.
Pantheon will not be any of the above. Continually pretending that this game will therefore fail to survive on p2p purely because other games have failed on a very different, and frankly un-massively multiplayer design, is not a fair, logical or intelligent comparison.
Furthermore, this bull feces you continually spread about how "people nowadays have more to do/more games to play" is flat out falsehood. I had plentyof games to play, among other things back in the 90s. There was no less competition for my free time in the '90s or early oughts than there is now. There were also at least a dozen other mmos competing with EQ while it was most successful, and even after their playerbase was significantly reduced post-WoW, they still survived for 7 years on a subscription with dozens of other games to choose from.
Your argument is fatally flawed.
However, you are correct that a lot of things are still up in the air. Yes, Visionary Realms could fail to deliver. The game might not offer the necessary content for that bond to be created that people had with first generation MMOs. It could be too buggy ala Vanguard, or of course, it could fail to launch altogether.
My remarks above are of course based on the assumption that what they're creating will become a reality according to the design they've put forth. If they truly create a quality game (doesn't even have to be top notch AAA quality), it will be successful longer on a pure p2p system than any game that's come out in over a decade. That is a big if, however.
Huge fan of guess math (^_-) why should I trust your math and guesses over the people at Pantheon who have been in the business at least a little longer then you?
You don't have to trust my math. The point is (and always has been) that there are several ways of interpreting the information that Pantheon is providing, not just the 'corporate' view. Do you really want to support a company that is stingy to it's employees, keeping salaries and benefits down, just to meet some marketing promise? I had pegged you as a bit more altruistic than that.
It's a legitimate question -- can Visionary Realms really survive with only 25,000 subscribers?
Wasn't going to but if you insist. In your math you miss the small point that you need way more staff to make an MMO then to keep it running. That's why most MMO launch and then lay off a large number of staff. My point is your guess work is given from little experience and I could pick it apart further. I'm sure VR CFO has a plan born from education and experience. If they say they can function with 25'000 subs who are you to question it? What is the point of questioning it?
Also as pointed out above there is a good chance they won't be running at the bare minimum. Fans of EQ1 and Vanguard have been begging SoE for a modern MMO just like Pantheon and has fallen on defeat ears for 10 years. EQ2 does not count as it's play style is no where near the same. Look at the following and hype EQN got on their announcement of the project. How the hype died when they saw it was not a successor of EQ1. Pantheon fills a long wanted hole. If they pull it off it could be a thing of beauty.
First point. Yes, MMORPGs can operate with smaller staffs. Where are the 30 currently on the team going to go when the project is launched? I can tell you. They will begin working to develop an expansion pack. Why? Subscriptions rely on new content. Since those 30 people are going to be occupied with new development duties, VR is likely to need to hire additional staff for operational support. You think that VR's staff size is going to shrink because they go live? I don't.
Second point. Your projection is based purely on anecdotal evidence. I've asked many times where these hoards of people are that are going to step forward and give VR money. I can't identify them, and no one has bothered to attempt an answer. Yet, you continue to believe and use this unidentified group of people as 'proof' that Pantheon will be a great success. Field of Dreams might be a great, entertaining movie, but it's not a model for a sound business plan.
Ok maybe Pantheon won't follow the norm of every MMO to date that does not lay off staff shortly after it releases. Sure. As to evidence that there are tones of people lining up for Pantheon, I never said that. I said there is much hype when people see a possible rebirth of EQ1 that fans have been asking for since 2004 when they saw what Blizzard could do. SoE ignored that fan base. Fans of the combat style, CC, DPS, Support and Tank has not had a new MMO since DAoC. Before that EQ1. If and that was my point, if Pantheon pulls it off it will be a beautiful thing. This is something fans could get behind.
Where is this fan base of disgruntled EQ1 fans?
Im one right here. Want to see more, go read the threads on this forum when EQN was announced. EQ1 fans rejoiced, then look at the threads when people found out it would be more like a MOBA then EQ1. People were looking for EQ2 that EQ2 never was.
The entire active members of MMORPG.com is less than 250 regulars. I'll give you those 250. Where are those other 24,750 subscriptions coming from?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Huge fan of guess math (^_-) why should I trust your math and guesses over the people at Pantheon who have been in the business at least a little longer then you?
You don't have to trust my math. The point is (and always has been) that there are several ways of interpreting the information that Pantheon is providing, not just the 'corporate' view. Do you really want to support a company that is stingy to it's employees, keeping salaries and benefits down, just to meet some marketing promise? I had pegged you as a bit more altruistic than that.
It's a legitimate question -- can Visionary Realms really survive with only 25,000 subscribers?
Wasn't going to but if you insist. In your math you miss the small point that you need way more staff to make an MMO then to keep it running. That's why most MMO launch and then lay off a large number of staff. My point is your guess work is given from little experience and I could pick it apart further. I'm sure VR CFO has a plan born from education and experience. If they say they can function with 25'000 subs who are you to question it? What is the point of questioning it?
Also as pointed out above there is a good chance they won't be running at the bare minimum. Fans of EQ1 and Vanguard have been begging SoE for a modern MMO just like Pantheon and has fallen on defeat ears for 10 years. EQ2 does not count as it's play style is no where near the same. Look at the following and hype EQN got on their announcement of the project. How the hype died when they saw it was not a successor of EQ1. Pantheon fills a long wanted hole. If they pull it off it could be a thing of beauty.
First point. Yes, MMORPGs can operate with smaller staffs. Where are the 30 currently on the team going to go when the project is launched? I can tell you. They will begin working to develop an expansion pack. Why? Subscriptions rely on new content. Since those 30 people are going to be occupied with new development duties, VR is likely to need to hire additional staff for operational support. You think that VR's staff size is going to shrink because they go live? I don't.
Second point. Your projection is based purely on anecdotal evidence. I've asked many times where these hoards of people are that are going to step forward and give VR money. I can't identify them, and no one has bothered to attempt an answer. Yet, you continue to believe and use this unidentified group of people as 'proof' that Pantheon will be a great success. Field of Dreams might be a great, entertaining movie, but it's not a model for a sound business plan.
Ok maybe Pantheon won't follow the norm of every MMO to date that does not lay off staff shortly after it releases. Sure. As to evidence that there are tones of people lining up for Pantheon, I never said that. I said there is much hype when people see a possible rebirth of EQ1 that fans have been asking for since 2004 when they saw what Blizzard could do. SoE ignored that fan base. Fans of the combat style, CC, DPS, Support and Tank has not had a new MMO since DAoC. Before that EQ1. If and that was my point, if Pantheon pulls it off it will be a beautiful thing. This is something fans could get behind.
Where is this fan base of disgruntled EQ1 fans?
Im one right here. Want to see more, go read the threads on this forum when EQN was announced. EQ1 fans rejoiced, then look at the threads when people found out it would be more like a MOBA then EQ1. People were looking for EQ2 that EQ2 never was.
The entire active members of MMORPG.com is less than 250 regulars. I'll give you those 250. Where are those other 24,750 subscriptions coming from?
You do realize that many thousands of people have already pledged to Pantheon, exceeding the money they asked for during their original failed kickstarter, do you not?
I can tell you right now, those who have pledged are dwarfed by those who are waiting until launch.
Huge fan of guess math (^_-) why should I trust your math and guesses over the people at Pantheon who have been in the business at least a little longer then you?
You don't have to trust my math. The point is (and always has been) that there are several ways of interpreting the information that Pantheon is providing, not just the 'corporate' view. Do you really want to support a company that is stingy to it's employees, keeping salaries and benefits down, just to meet some marketing promise? I had pegged you as a bit more altruistic than that.
It's a legitimate question -- can Visionary Realms really survive with only 25,000 subscribers?
Wasn't going to but if you insist. In your math you miss the small point that you need way more staff to make an MMO then to keep it running. That's why most MMO launch and then lay off a large number of staff. My point is your guess work is given from little experience and I could pick it apart further. I'm sure VR CFO has a plan born from education and experience. If they say they can function with 25'000 subs who are you to question it? What is the point of questioning it?
Also as pointed out above there is a good chance they won't be running at the bare minimum. Fans of EQ1 and Vanguard have been begging SoE for a modern MMO just like Pantheon and has fallen on defeat ears for 10 years. EQ2 does not count as it's play style is no where near the same. Look at the following and hype EQN got on their announcement of the project. How the hype died when they saw it was not a successor of EQ1. Pantheon fills a long wanted hole. If they pull it off it could be a thing of beauty.
First point. Yes, MMORPGs can operate with smaller staffs. Where are the 30 currently on the team going to go when the project is launched? I can tell you. They will begin working to develop an expansion pack. Why? Subscriptions rely on new content. Since those 30 people are going to be occupied with new development duties, VR is likely to need to hire additional staff for operational support. You think that VR's staff size is going to shrink because they go live? I don't.
Second point. Your projection is based purely on anecdotal evidence. I've asked many times where these hoards of people are that are going to step forward and give VR money. I can't identify them, and no one has bothered to attempt an answer. Yet, you continue to believe and use this unidentified group of people as 'proof' that Pantheon will be a great success. Field of Dreams might be a great, entertaining movie, but it's not a model for a sound business plan.
Let me tell you one thing about P2P games and expansions, the expansions have a deminishing return with each expansion.
Here is a typical scenario of what it looks like :
1. MMORPG launch - lets say it's 250K Subscribers
2. The first expansion is slated for a year after launch - by that time lets say the active subs are at 150K (60% population decline in a year is very optimistic but this is just an example)
3. The expansion launches - and it's a good one - the subs go up to 210K
4. Expansion 2 is in the works - takes another year - by the time it launches the subs are at 100K (yes you lose players faster as the time goes on)
5. Expansion 2 launch - you go up to 140K players
So with each expansion you regain less and less playerbase, over time the expansions only point is to keep the existing core playerbase as you almost gain no new players
Another reason why pure P2P just doesn't work
I totally agree about the diminishing returns and the player retention thing.
I do think there are a sizable number of supporters that simply do not want to see. They want to believe that this is 1999 again, and VR will take steps to churn out content via expansions. It seems to please their world-view.
From all evidence, I suspect that some people at VR also believe that the way forward is to produce new content continuously. That, or they trying to placate those supporters that do. That's really what the 25,000 subscriber number sounds like -- spinning what would be a worst-case scenario into a palatable good-news situation.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
It's a comfort to know that even the developers do not place such high expectations on their game that some of their fans do. They are being realistic.
You are betting on the most optimistic of outcomes - which is fine, but I do hope you realize that VR delivering an amazing game (which is what it would take) is pretty slim.
Now I know that this sounds like a major downer - but in the last 15 years of MMORPGs, how many were amazing? Not even 1%.
Just being a realist here - I think the most likely outcome for Pantheon is that it's an average game (just like most MMOs) - which is not going to be good enough for this miraculous longterm P2P to work.
Oh and the fact that TODAY there is 100x more options for entertainment than back in 1999-2003 is not "bull feces"
Things that didn't exist back in 1999 - no Facebook, no youtube, no steam, no Netflix .. no 100s of MMOs come on - and most of these don't require $15 a month.
In the the hayday of EQ1 (1999-2003) - there was UO, AC, AO, DAoC as the main competitors. Once WoW came out - it put on a real hurting on most MMORPGs.
If this is "bull feces" to you - then I don't know what to say.
I don't know how you were set in the '90s, perhaps you didn't have the luxuries I had in my youth (I can tell you, they're greater than those which I can afford myself, lol). For me though, I had more TV channels and programs than I had time to watch. I had more games than I had time to play. We had blockbuster where games and movies were available for rent as a pace more rapid than we could ever hope to keep up with. We also had more in-person social events than you could even find now via Facebook if you scoured it daily, because those more personal (and time consuming) gatherings were the norm over texting/skyping/social media'ing...
The argument that things have changed and we have "less time" because of the shallow, yet convenient social and gaming platforms that we have today, is completely false. Maybe you didn't have those things at your disposal in the '90s, or you were living in your mom's basement, but the rest of us in the world had as much, if not more, things contending with our time than we do today.
I totally agree about the diminishing returns and the player retention thing.
I do think there are a sizable number of supporters that simply do not want to see. They want to believe that this is 1999 again, and VR will take steps to churn out content via expansions. It seems to please their world-view.
From all evidence, I suspect that some people at VR also believe that the way forward is to produce new content continuously. That, or they trying to placate those supporters that do. That's really what the 25,000 subscriber number sounds like -- spinning what would be a worst-case scenario into a palatable good-news situation.
Totally agree with your conclusions, except for that hilarious 25k number. If Pantheon dropped tomorrow with 10 zones and a level cap of 20, it would have 25k in less than a day's time. It would probably lack the content and quality to retain them very long, but that number would be reached in hours by just the curious few alone.
While I'm agreeing with you, I'll also put forth that you're correct about Pantheon likely keeping their complete staff, if not growing post launch. Some positions may be converted to others and the scope of responsibilities will probably change, but a game like Pantheon has an obligation to produce content at an accelerated rate if they intend to go full p2p. EQ having expansions every 10 months or so was a huge factor in their ability to grow their playerbase over the other alternatives, as well as staying profitable even after losing many players in the later years. They must follow that pattern if they intend to have similar results.
I'm...........not impressed by what I see of the combat. I would have expected more given the technology available today. A lot more. There is will need to be some drastic improvements before I, personally, give any kind of sub or donation to this one.
I don't have an issue with people who want to play the game, just a few people who think they own the game or any conversation or opinion about it and pretend like this game and those people deserve some special reach around.
No, you been getting more and more negative with your posts in just about every corner of the forums. You attack mostly in the Pantheon forums. I don't know what's gotten you over the past few months but your not the same guy who garnered great respect here. I used to enjoy reading your feedback and miss the guy you used to be. I hope to see him again.
i agree with this. that is why i assumed he had some issue with the game or it's fans because i have personally read a lot of his posts in the ESO sub forum that is quite the opposite of what's going on over here.
i'm not trying to bash torval either, he can not like this game or think it's going to fail or whatever, it's cool. me personally, i have my doubts pantheon even sees the light of day but i am cautiously optimistic it will be fun and hold my attention for a while if/when it launches.
i think the main thing people need to understand is this is very much an indie MMO, if you have high expectations for this game then there is a good chance you will be disappointed.
There is no MMO savior but there is a giant hole in the current MMO scene. Modern MMO (past 10 years) has been mostly Twitch combat. The very few MMOs that have not been that, the classes are often generic DPS with slight variance of play styles and the CC dynamic has been removed.
To try and pull in more players to get a bigger pay day MMOs have become more and more about solo play. Often people getting to end game never having to talk to or join another person in a teamed environment.
What has this lead to, attrition in end game. Many MMO hoppers solo happy as a pig in poop till they are presented with a new game at top level. One where they have no bonds of friendships and required to now team. IMO that's why MMOs lose a large % of players 3-6 months after launch. They don't know how to make teams or function in a team dynamic. Easier to quit and jump to the next MMO and level up solo then figure it out.
So the two sides of this, fans of non-twitch combat have few option. Fans of CC, Support, DPS, Tank style combat only have 18 year old MMOs to pick from. Other side Pantheon's slow level system that brings gamers together will creat a community that is ready to support each other come end game. IMO this will cause a smaller attrition as people will not have to learn a new game, just keep playing the same game they have come to love since level 10. Or learnt by level 30 it's not a game for them.
Pantheon is not a cure to all MMO problems but IMO it will make a hard core group of gamers that will be happy to pay a sub. Much like the days of EQ1 and DAoC. Why? Because developers have forgotten what made people keep playing. MMOs greatest strength is people. Trading convenience to earn more subs has created unstable end games.
I'm...........not impressed by what I see of the combat. I would have expected more given the technology available today. A lot more. There is will need to be some drastic improvements before I, personally, give any kind of sub or donation to this one.
i honestly don't think it's going to improve that much for the people that are in your camp. from what i have read it's going to be slower paced combat, more of a traditional RPG style.
i don't know if it's just because i'm getting older but i welcome this because i play video games to relax and sometimes playing games with intense fast paced combat just isn't what i want to do anymore.
i play ESO and have been most of the time since beta so maybe i'm just starting to get burned out on that type of combat.
There is no MMO savior but there is a giant hole in the current MMO scene. Modern MMO (past 10 years) has been mostly Twitch combat. The very few MMOs that have not been that, the classes are often generic DPS with slight variance of play styles and the CC dynamic has been removed.
To try and pull in more players to get a bigger pay day MMOs have become more and more about solo play. Often people getting to end game never having to talk to or join another person in a teamed environment.
What has this lead to, attrition in end game. Many MMO hoppers solo happy as a pig in poop till they are presented with a new game at top level. One where they have no bonds of friendships and required to now team. IMO that's why MMOs lose a large % of players 3-6 months after launch. They don't know how to make teams or function in a team dynamic. Easier to quit and jump to the next MMO and level up solo then figure it out.
So the two sides of this, fans of non-twitch combat have few option. Fans of CC, Support, DPS, Tank style combat only have 18 year old MMOs to pick from. Other side Pantheon's slow level system that brings gamers together will creat a community that is ready to support each other come end game. IMO this will cause a smaller attrition as people will not have to learn a new game, just keep playing the same game they have come to love since level 10. Or learnt by level 30 it's not a game for them.
Pantheon is not a cure to all MMO problems but IMO it will make a hard core group of gamers that will be happy to pay a sub. Much like the days of EQ1 and DAoC. Why? Because developers have forgotten what made people keep playing. MMOs greatest strength is people. Trading convenience to earn more subs has created unstable end games.
Very well said. Leveraging slower, more rewarding cooperative gameplay, and the sense of community it builds, will make Pantheon entirely unique in the current MMO landscape. That is what will sustain them and prevent players from considering hopping to the next new thing. Chances are, it simply won't offer the same thing.
There is no MMO savior but there is a giant hole in the current MMO scene. Modern MMO (past 10 years) has been mostly Twitch combat. The very few MMOs that have not been that, the classes are often generic DPS with slight variance of play styles and the CC dynamic has been removed.
To try and pull in more players to get a bigger pay day MMOs have become more and more about solo play. Often people getting to end game never having to talk to or join another person in a teamed environment.
What has this lead to, attrition in end game. Many MMO hoppers solo happy as a pig in poop till they are presented with a new game at top level. One where they have no bonds of friendships and required to now team. IMO that's why MMOs lose a large % of players 3-6 months after launch. They don't know how to make teams or function in a team dynamic. Easier to quit and jump to the next MMO and level up solo then figure it out.
So the two sides of this, fans of non-twitch combat have few option. Fans of CC, Support, DPS, Tank style combat only have 18 year old MMOs to pick from. Other side Pantheon's slow level system that brings gamers together will creat a community that is ready to support each other come end game. IMO this will cause a smaller attrition as people will not have to learn a new game, just keep playing the same game they have come to love since level 10. Or learnt by level 30 it's not a game for them.
Pantheon is not a cure to all MMO problems but IMO it will make a hard core group of gamers that will be happy to pay a sub. Much like the days of EQ1 and DAoC. Why? Because developers have forgotten what made people keep playing. MMOs greatest strength is people. Trading convenience to earn more subs has created unstable end games.
Very well said. Leveraging slower, more rewarding cooperative gameplay, and the sense of community it builds, will make Pantheon entirely unique in the current MMO landscape. That is what will sustain them and prevent players from considering hopping to the next new thing. Chances are, it simply won't offer the same thing.
Ya IMO the more solo a MMO becomes the bigger a mess end game becomes for all. Even learning how to spec your char is done for solo. Get end game most people dont know how to spec their char for a team. That also makes unbalanced classes. The trickle down effect of this is huge but devs are running towards the fast buck of money now. Not the long game where the money in the end is just as big if not bigger.
Comments
for your delight in viewing - actual eq1 prealpha footage for comparison:
Ok maybe Pantheon won't follow the norm of every MMO to date that does not lay off staff shortly after it releases. Sure. As to evidence that there are tones of people lining up for Pantheon, I never said that. I said there is much hype when people see a possible rebirth of EQ1 that fans have been asking for since 2004 when they saw what Blizzard could do. SoE ignored that fan base. Fans of the combat style, CC, DPS, Support and Tank has not had a new MMO since DAoC. Before that EQ1. If and that was my point, if Pantheon pulls it off it will be a beautiful thing. This is something fans could get behind.
Where is this fan base of disgruntled EQ1 fans?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Im one right here. Want to see more, go read the threads on this forum when EQN was announced. EQ1 fans rejoiced, then look at the threads when people found out it would be more like a MOBA then EQ1. People were looking for EQ2 that EQ2 never was.
It's not some mysterious reason why people leave games. The vast majority of the people who leave games do it because a) there's so many games just like it to play, b) the games offer very limited content which can be achieved with very little time devoted, and seldom requires coordination with other players, c) they cannot hold the player's attention long enough for them to establish a bond with the game, it's world, and it's players, d) or they are just poorly constructed and created to milk people with cash shops in short bursts -- by design.
Pantheon will not be any of the above. Continually pretending that this game will therefore fail to survive on p2p purely because other games have failed on a very different, and frankly un-massively multiplayer design, is not a fair, logical or intelligent comparison.
Furthermore, this bull feces you continually spread about how "people nowadays have more to do/more games to play" is flat out falsehood. I had plenty of games to play, among other things back in the 90s. There was no less competition for my free time in the '90s or early oughts than there is now. There were also at least a dozen other mmos competing with EQ while it was most successful, and even after their playerbase was significantly reduced post-WoW, they still survived for 7 years on a subscription with dozens of other games to choose from.
Your argument is fatally flawed.
However, you are correct that a lot of things are still up in the air. Yes, Visionary Realms could fail to deliver. The game might not offer the necessary content for that bond to be created that people had with first generation MMOs. It could be too buggy ala Vanguard, or of course, it could fail to launch altogether.
My remarks above are of course based on the assumption that what they're creating will become a reality according to the design they've put forth. If they truly create a quality game (doesn't even have to be top notch AAA quality), it will be successful longer on a pure p2p system than any game that's come out in over a decade. That is a big if, however.
The entire active members of MMORPG.com is less than 250 regulars. I'll give you those 250. Where are those other 24,750 subscriptions coming from?
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
You do realize that many thousands of people have already pledged to Pantheon, exceeding the money they asked for during their original failed kickstarter, do you not?
I can tell you right now, those who have pledged are dwarfed by those who are waiting until launch.
I totally agree about the diminishing returns and the player retention thing.
I do think there are a sizable number of supporters that simply do not want to see. They want to believe that this is 1999 again, and VR will take steps to churn out content via expansions. It seems to please their world-view.
From all evidence, I suspect that some people at VR also believe that the way forward is to produce new content continuously. That, or they trying to placate those supporters that do. That's really what the 25,000 subscriber number sounds like -- spinning what would be a worst-case scenario into a palatable good-news situation.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I don't know how you were set in the '90s, perhaps you didn't have the luxuries I had in my youth (I can tell you, they're greater than those which I can afford myself, lol). For me though, I had more TV channels and programs than I had time to watch. I had more games than I had time to play. We had blockbuster where games and movies were available for rent as a pace more rapid than we could ever hope to keep up with. We also had more in-person social events than you could even find now via Facebook if you scoured it daily, because those more personal (and time consuming) gatherings were the norm over texting/skyping/social media'ing...
The argument that things have changed and we have "less time" because of the shallow, yet convenient social and gaming platforms that we have today, is completely false. Maybe you didn't have those things at your disposal in the '90s, or you were living in your mom's basement, but the rest of us in the world had as much, if not more, things contending with our time than we do today.
While I'm agreeing with you, I'll also put forth that you're correct about Pantheon likely keeping their complete staff, if not growing post launch. Some positions may be converted to others and the scope of responsibilities will probably change, but a game like Pantheon has an obligation to produce content at an accelerated rate if they intend to go full p2p. EQ having expansions every 10 months or so was a huge factor in their ability to grow their playerbase over the other alternatives, as well as staying profitable even after losing many players in the later years. They must follow that pattern if they intend to have similar results.
i agree with this. that is why i assumed he had some issue with the game or it's fans because i have personally read a lot of his posts in the ESO sub forum that is quite the opposite of what's going on over here.
i'm not trying to bash torval either, he can not like this game or think it's going to fail or whatever, it's cool. me personally, i have my doubts pantheon even sees the light of day but i am cautiously optimistic it will be fun and hold my attention for a while if/when it launches.
i think the main thing people need to understand is this is very much an indie MMO, if you have high expectations for this game then there is a good chance you will be disappointed.
To try and pull in more players to get a bigger pay day MMOs have become more and more about solo play. Often people getting to end game never having to talk to or join another person in a teamed environment.
What has this lead to, attrition in end game. Many MMO hoppers solo happy as a pig in poop till they are presented with a new game at top level. One where they have no bonds of friendships and required to now team. IMO that's why MMOs lose a large % of players 3-6 months after launch. They don't know how to make teams or function in a team dynamic. Easier to quit and jump to the next MMO and level up solo then figure it out.
So the two sides of this, fans of non-twitch combat have few option. Fans of CC, Support, DPS, Tank style combat only have 18 year old MMOs to pick from. Other side Pantheon's slow level system that brings gamers together will creat a community that is ready to support each other come end game. IMO this will cause a smaller attrition as people will not have to learn a new game, just keep playing the same game they have come to love since level 10. Or learnt by level 30 it's not a game for them.
Pantheon is not a cure to all MMO problems but IMO it will make a hard core group of gamers that will be happy to pay a sub. Much like the days of EQ1 and DAoC. Why? Because developers have forgotten what made people keep playing. MMOs greatest strength is people. Trading convenience to earn more subs has created unstable end games.
i honestly don't think it's going to improve that much for the people that are in your camp. from what i have read it's going to be slower paced combat, more of a traditional RPG style.
i don't know if it's just because i'm getting older but i welcome this because i play video games to relax and sometimes playing games with intense fast paced combat just isn't what i want to do anymore.
i play ESO and have been most of the time since beta so maybe i'm just starting to get burned out on that type of combat.
Very well said. Leveraging slower, more rewarding cooperative gameplay, and the sense of community it builds, will make Pantheon entirely unique in the current MMO landscape. That is what will sustain them and prevent players from considering hopping to the next new thing. Chances are, it simply won't offer the same thing.
Ya IMO the more solo a MMO becomes the bigger a mess end game becomes for all. Even learning how to spec your char is done for solo. Get end game most people dont know how to spec their char for a team. That also makes unbalanced classes. The trickle down effect of this is huge but devs are running towards the fast buck of money now. Not the long game where the money in the end is just as big if not bigger.