The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
It all depends what aspects of RPGs you enjoy.
I personally hate the level grind in standard MMOs, but it's all down to the implementation:
Story - too many generic quests and bad writing. All computer games suffer from bad writing (films and books are much better for story telling) but MMOs simply have so many quests that the story sucks.
Progression - Gear is replaced within a few hours and enemy difficulty remains relatively constant: as I get stronger, so do they. So, progression is a myth during the leveling process.
Grouping - So little of it left, but even when you want to group, mismatched quests or wrong levels get in the way.
Difficulty - it's just too easy in standard MMOs.
The result is that I'm just bored out of my mind leveling up in just about every MMO I play. The only enjoyable bit is discovering new locations, but even then, if the MMO is very linear like Wildstar or SW:TOR, the locations aren't even enjoyable.
With every MMO I try, I do attempt to enjoy it. I always start off reading all the quest text, listening to all the dialogue / voice overs etc, taking my time in each zone, completing every quest. But, 10-20 hours in my patience runs out. The shit story plus lack of challenge are the two main things that kill the leveling process for me, so from then on I do everything possible to speed through leveling and get to the good bits.
It is only at endgame where challenge kicks in. Progression actually becomes meaningful, because the increases in power are noticeable versus other players of the same level, and against the content I'm running. Grouping becomes easier, and I finally have every skill I can acquire so I can really focus on learning my character and playing the best I possibly can do.
The last MMO I enjoyed leveling in was vanilla LotRO, so nearly 10 years ago now. Whilst it was still quest based, there was loads of grouping, loads of challenging content and the story was mostly well written. But, even before the first expansion came out, they started dumbing down the leveling process and removing the challenge and group content.
So, to summarise, it's not that we think of leveling as a grind (because we don't want to level), it is that the current implementation of leveling is a grind because the activities involved are not fun. This is obviously a subjective point of view - I like challenging group content and meaningful progression, which doesn't match the current implementation, but those of you who enjoy generic stories, relaxed combat and constant loot drops obviously would prefer the current implementation.
The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
It all depends what aspects of RPGs you enjoy.
I personally hate the level grind in standard MMOs, but it's all down to the implementation:
Story - too many generic quests and bad writing. All computer games suffer from bad writing (films and books are much better for story telling) but MMOs simply have so many quests that the story sucks.
Progression - Gear is replaced within a few hours and enemy difficulty remains relatively constant: as I get stronger, so do they. So, progression is a myth during the leveling process.
Grouping - So little of it left, but even when you want to group, mismatched quests or wrong levels get in the way.
Difficulty - it's just too easy in standard MMOs.
The result is that I'm just bored out of my mind leveling up in just about every MMO I play. The only enjoyable bit is discovering new locations, but even then, if the MMO is very linear like Wildstar or SW:TOR, the locations aren't even enjoyable.
With every MMO I try, I do attempt to enjoy it. I always start off reading all the quest text, listening to all the dialogue / voice overs etc, taking my time in each zone, completing every quest. But, 10-20 hours in my patience runs out. The shit story plus lack of challenge are the two main things that kill the leveling process for me, so from then on I do everything possible to speed through leveling and get to the good bits.
It is only at endgame where challenge kicks in. Progression actually becomes meaningful, because the increases in power are noticeable versus other players of the same level, and against the content I'm running. Grouping becomes easier, and I finally have every skill I can acquire so I can really focus on learning my character and playing the best I possibly can do.
The last MMO I enjoyed leveling in was vanilla LotRO, so nearly 10 years ago now. Whilst it was still quest based, there was loads of grouping, loads of challenging content and the story was mostly well written. But, even before the first expansion came out, they started dumbing down the leveling process and removing the challenge and group content.
So, to summarise, it's not that we think of leveling as a grind (because we don't want to level), it is that the current implementation of leveling is a grind because the activities involved are not fun. This is obviously a subjective point of view - I like challenging group content and meaningful progression, which doesn't match the current implementation, but those of you who enjoy generic stories, relaxed combat and constant loot drops obviously would prefer the current implementation.
In all the MMORPGs I've tried I have never once run into a leveling group that was looking for hard content to grind on. Most purposely avoid anything that doesn't drop fast to group DPS. So I can't really blame devs for dropping the difficulty across the board in cases like LOTRO. When most of your players are hellbent on following a crash course through the experience, you might as well give them the good stuff to play through. Rather than have them bitching and moaning that they're bored of the mobs they've been grinding.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
It all depends what aspects of RPGs you enjoy.
I personally hate the level grind in standard MMOs, but it's all down to the implementation:
Story - too many generic quests and bad writing. All computer games suffer from bad writing (films and books are much better for story telling) but MMOs simply have so many quests that the story sucks.
Progression - Gear is replaced within a few hours and enemy difficulty remains relatively constant: as I get stronger, so do they. So, progression is a myth during the leveling process.
Grouping - So little of it left, but even when you want to group, mismatched quests or wrong levels get in the way.
Difficulty - it's just too easy in standard MMOs.
The result is that I'm just bored out of my mind leveling up in just about every MMO I play. The only enjoyable bit is discovering new locations, but even then, if the MMO is very linear like Wildstar or SW:TOR, the locations aren't even enjoyable.
With every MMO I try, I do attempt to enjoy it. I always start off reading all the quest text, listening to all the dialogue / voice overs etc, taking my time in each zone, completing every quest. But, 10-20 hours in my patience runs out. The shit story plus lack of challenge are the two main things that kill the leveling process for me, so from then on I do everything possible to speed through leveling and get to the good bits.
It is only at endgame where challenge kicks in. Progression actually becomes meaningful, because the increases in power are noticeable versus other players of the same level, and against the content I'm running. Grouping becomes easier, and I finally have every skill I can acquire so I can really focus on learning my character and playing the best I possibly can do.
The last MMO I enjoyed leveling in was vanilla LotRO, so nearly 10 years ago now. Whilst it was still quest based, there was loads of grouping, loads of challenging content and the story was mostly well written. But, even before the first expansion came out, they started dumbing down the leveling process and removing the challenge and group content.
So, to summarise, it's not that we think of leveling as a grind (because we don't want to level), it is that the current implementation of leveling is a grind because the activities involved are not fun. This is obviously a subjective point of view - I like challenging group content and meaningful progression, which doesn't match the current implementation, but those of you who enjoy generic stories, relaxed combat and constant loot drops obviously would prefer the current implementation.
In all the MMORPGs I've tried I have never once run into a leveling group that was looking for hard content to grind on. Most purposely avoid anything that doesn't drop fast to group DPS. So I can't really blame devs for dropping the difficulty across the board in cases like LOTRO. When most of your players are hellbent on following a crash course through the experience, you might as well give them the good stuff to play through. Rather than have them bitching and moaning that they're bored of the mobs they've been grinding.
That's my experience too. Grind groups just look for the highest mob density that gives the highest XP returns and where the re-spawn is the quickest. They are never looking for a challenge just max XP/hour.
That it's mind-numbing boring just goes with the territory they chose for themselves.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
nope it doesn't. i would say non stop quest hubs with no endgame or large scale region vs region realm vs realm pvp/rvr without decent rewards is what kills it.
IMPORTANT: Please keep all replies to my posts about GAMING. Please no negative or backhanded comments directed at me personally. If you are going to post a reply that includes how you feel about me, please don't bother replying & just ignore my post instead. I'm on this forum to talk about GAMING. Thank you.
The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
It all depends what aspects of RPGs you enjoy.
I personally hate the level grind in standard MMOs, but it's all down to the implementation:
Story - too many generic quests and bad writing. All computer games suffer from bad writing (films and books are much better for story telling) but MMOs simply have so many quests that the story sucks.
Progression - Gear is replaced within a few hours and enemy difficulty remains relatively constant: as I get stronger, so do they. So, progression is a myth during the leveling process.
Grouping - So little of it left, but even when you want to group, mismatched quests or wrong levels get in the way.
Difficulty - it's just too easy in standard MMOs.
The result is that I'm just bored out of my mind leveling up in just about every MMO I play. The only enjoyable bit is discovering new locations, but even then, if the MMO is very linear like Wildstar or SW:TOR, the locations aren't even enjoyable.
With every MMO I try, I do attempt to enjoy it. I always start off reading all the quest text, listening to all the dialogue / voice overs etc, taking my time in each zone, completing every quest. But, 10-20 hours in my patience runs out. The shit story plus lack of challenge are the two main things that kill the leveling process for me, so from then on I do everything possible to speed through leveling and get to the good bits.
It is only at endgame where challenge kicks in. Progression actually becomes meaningful, because the increases in power are noticeable versus other players of the same level, and against the content I'm running. Grouping becomes easier, and I finally have every skill I can acquire so I can really focus on learning my character and playing the best I possibly can do.
The last MMO I enjoyed leveling in was vanilla LotRO, so nearly 10 years ago now. Whilst it was still quest based, there was loads of grouping, loads of challenging content and the story was mostly well written. But, even before the first expansion came out, they started dumbing down the leveling process and removing the challenge and group content.
So, to summarise, it's not that we think of leveling as a grind (because we don't want to level), it is that the current implementation of leveling is a grind because the activities involved are not fun. This is obviously a subjective point of view - I like challenging group content and meaningful progression, which doesn't match the current implementation, but those of you who enjoy generic stories, relaxed combat and constant loot drops obviously would prefer the current implementation.
In all the MMORPGs I've tried I have never once run into a leveling group that was looking for hard content to grind on. Most purposely avoid anything that doesn't drop fast to group DPS. So I can't really blame devs for dropping the difficulty across the board in cases like LOTRO. When most of your players are hellbent on following a crash course through the experience, you might as well give them the good stuff to play through. Rather than have them bitching and moaning that they're bored of the mobs they've been grinding.
I guess you never played games before WoW. In lineage 2, it was common where 9man parties were required for many grind spots and would go on for 12 hours minimum. The player base had a system of respecting each other in who was there first (or go to war over it). I had a friendlist of about 80 friends and never had trouble finding a large party grind group as a dps class. If someone had to leave, they would give a 30min warning so we could find a replacement. 1 person would hold the spot while the group escorted the replacement to that spot. Many times our groups wouldn't find a single drop that day/night, but we were okay with that because the exp (as slow as it was) was much better than duo/trioing. Plus, if you were in a large group, you generally wouldn't have to put up with player griefers.
I was also in a clan who gathered to grind on raid bosses twice a week requiring at least 40++ people.
Not once during the parties or raids did I hear any complaining about how long or how hard it was. It was just expected and everyone had a different character to them... something involving discipline, integrity, and perseverance.
L2 was all about the grind. You could group grind, solo grind, 2 box, or 3 box grind. That was the nature of the game as well as waiting and hour or more for a raid to come together. Only a few years ago did they add fast leveling at lower levels to attract more people. Most MMO's realize that the majority don't want hard as much as fast. So they try and balance between both, and even offer high level characters for sale or instant level potions and scrolls.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
I would say all kinds of stuff but people have covered pretty much everything I think I'd say on the subject. I can live or without levels but for me the journey to endgame is usually far more fun than endgame itself. So I most of the time would rather not race my way there. Exception being something like DaoC pre-Atlantis and all that junk. The endgame for original DaoC was the best ever. Everyone geared about the same, no gear grinding crud, just strap on your armor and go out and fight for your realm! I am rambling.
I was in Albion and for us those last few levels meant goblins or trees... I used to have nightmares about them
I was almost out the door by the time Atlantis rolled out so I only have good memories of DAoC.
You may have forgotten but the SI expansion eliminated the tree/gobbo grind.
Instead everything shifted to Avalon City for the final level run. (Alb side)
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I would say all kinds of stuff but people have covered pretty much everything I think I'd say on the subject. I can live or without levels but for me the journey to endgame is usually far more fun than endgame itself. So I most of the time would rather not race my way there. Exception being something like DaoC pre-Atlantis and all that junk. The endgame for original DaoC was the best ever. Everyone geared about the same, no gear grinding crud, just strap on your armor and go out and fight for your realm! I am rambling.
I was in Albion and for us those last few levels meant goblins or trees... I used to have nightmares about them
I was almost out the door by the time Atlantis rolled out so I only have good memories of DAoC.
You may have forgotten but the SI expansion eliminated the tree/gobbo grind.
Instead everything shifted to Avalon City for the final level run. (Alb side)
My Theurgist and Wizard were already capped on the base game before Shrouded Isles came out. I did level a Reaver after that but for the life of me I have no memory of how I got him to 50.
The trees and gobs are burned into my memory though
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
I would say all kinds of stuff but people have covered pretty much everything I think I'd say on the subject. I can live or without levels but for me the journey to endgame is usually far more fun than endgame itself. So I most of the time would rather not race my way there. Exception being something like DaoC pre-Atlantis and all that junk. The endgame for original DaoC was the best ever. Everyone geared about the same, no gear grinding crud, just strap on your armor and go out and fight for your realm! I am rambling.
I was in Albion and for us those last few levels meant goblins or trees... I used to have nightmares about them
I was almost out the door by the time Atlantis rolled out so I only have good memories of DAoC.
You may have forgotten but the SI expansion eliminated the tree/gobbo grind.
Instead everything shifted to Avalon City for the final level run. (Alb side)
My Theurgist and Wizard were already capped on the base game before Shrouded Isles came out. I did level a Reaver after that but for the life of me I have no memory of how I got him to 50.
The trees and gobs are burned into my memory though
As I'm playing the classic version now the old camps are relevant again, though this time I'm a Hib and they have a couple of additional grind spots that are relevant so not so bad and they pull "differently" in this realm.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
I guess you never played games before WoW. In lineage 2, it was common where 9man parties were required for many grind spots and would go on for 12 hours minimum. The player base had a system of respecting each other in who was there first (or go to war over it). I had a friendlist of about 80 friends and never had trouble finding a large party grind group as a dps class. If someone had to leave, they would give a 30min warning so we could find a replacement. 1 person would hold the spot while the group escorted the replacement to that spot. Many times our groups wouldn't find a single drop that day/night, but we were okay with that because the exp (as slow as it was) was much better than duo/trioing. Plus, if you were in a large group, you generally wouldn't have to put up with player griefers.
I was also in a clan who gathered to grind on raid bosses twice a week requiring at least 40++ people.
Not once during the parties or raids did I hear any complaining about how long or how hard it was. It was just expected and everyone had a different character to them... something involving discipline, integrity, and perseverance.
Vardahoth DAOC and SWG were both pre-WOW, which it was like I said for the most part. IN SWG's case most just joined solo grind groups and took missions with the easiest mobs to kill, mostly quenkers on Dantooine since they had some of the highest mob count within a lair (the most XP). People avoided diseased lairs or lairs with harder mobs for the most, especially lairs with mobs that poisoned or diseased you.
There's always an exception,if that's how it was in L2 that's great, yet I've never seen such personally.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I wish somebody could explain to me how doing the same crap 1,000 times is meaningful "character progression".
Lets say you want to be a carpenter. You start by making a box. Your first few boxes are rather rickety and fall apart quickly. You decide to purchase some better tools to make better boxes. Your boxes are better but now you want bigger fancier boxes. So you purchase fancier tools. Your skills at making boxes are constantly improving. And now you are pumping out boxes by the 1000's but they are so much better than that first box. You are now a master box maker!
Make sense?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
You are right but the devs doesn't always make it easy for us. Daily quests and things so uninspired that a 10 year old would have made a better job.
And the "start by killing rats and turn into a demi-God" might work but all MMPRPGs don't have to use the exact same ideas.
A lot of the reasons a MMORPG can feel grindy is that it feels like most of the content just is copy pasted from other games I already played. Fantasy have a lot of different settings and options but few games go for much that feels different and playing content that feels like you already did it many times feel far grindier then something that are different.
As I it, grind is a mix of personal feelings and bad game design.
The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
You are right but the devs doesn't always make it easy for us. Daily quests and things so uninspired that a 10 year old would have made a better job.
And the "start by killing rats and turn into a demi-God" might work but all MMPRPGs don't have to use the exact same ideas.
A lot of the reasons a MMORPG can feel grindy is that it feels like most of the content just is copy pasted from other games I already played. Fantasy have a lot of different settings and options but few games go for much that feels different and playing content that feels like you already did it many times feel far grindier then something that are different.
As I it, grind is a mix of personal feelings and bad game design.
I'd say it's more a matter of how much time you spend on said content rather than it's actual presentation. IN MMO's people spend a lot more time "grinding" than they do essentially anything else. This is especially true if those folks are jumping from game to game for years on end just doing the leveling bit.
The things you're pointing out have been an RP staple for a long time, it's never really been a problem in the actual RPG genre. I think that's because a proper RPG is centered around far more than raising arbitrary numbers over and over again. When the only real reward is essentially visual, ya! a new mob skin to fight or a cool looking sword. There's little feeling of an adventure coming to an end between games, it's just grind after grind after grind.
It doesn't matter what skin you throw on top after a while, or even how good the combat is or character building. It's the same repetitive process that's going to eventually grow old.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I'd say it's more a matter of how much time you spend on said content rather than it's actual presentation. IN MMO's people spend a lot more time "grinding" than they do essentially anything else. This is especially true if those folks are jumping from game to game for years on end just doing the leveling bit.
The things you're pointing out have been an RP staple for a long time, it's never really been a problem in the actual RPG genre. I think that's because a proper RPG is centered around far more than raising arbitrary numbers over and over again. When the only real reward is essentially visual, ya! a new mob skin to fight or a cool looking sword. There's little feeling of an adventure coming to an end between games, it's just grind after grind after grind.
It doesn't matter what skin you throw on top after a while, or even how good the combat is or character building. It's the same repetitive process that's going to eventually grow old.
That is of course an important factor as well, the longer you need to spend in a specific area the better designed it needs to be to not turn into a boring grind. Anything will eventually become old and boring but good content and mechanics that feels different and fun will last you far longer then killing rats in the moat in another game that feels like a cheaper version of Wow.
Players stay far shorter today in the same game then they did in '99 or '05 but the levelgrind is lower today then ever before, clearly is not the time to level the problem but the grind is elsewhere. And I think you hit the head on the nail with the comment about feeling of adventure, that is what MMOs lost or at least gotten far less of and that is what the genre need to discover again.
I hate the new MMOs for the fact that within a couple of hours (even within 40 hours) you can reach the maximum level and then you gotta enter the treadmill of dungeons for better gear, which in turn is needed for an other treadmill of dungeons for even better gear, which in turn...well, you get the drift...
Just give me something like old Lineage II back and I'm happy to grind my ass off for hours to achieve yet an other level.
The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
You are right but the devs doesn't always make it easy for us. Daily quests and things so uninspired that a 10 year old would have made a better job.
And the "start by killing rats and turn into a demi-God" might work but all MMPRPGs don't have to use the exact same ideas.
A lot of the reasons a MMORPG can feel grindy is that it feels like most of the content just is copy pasted from other games I already played. Fantasy have a lot of different settings and options but few games go for much that feels different and playing content that feels like you already did it many times feel far grindier then something that are different.
As I it, grind is a mix of personal feelings and bad game design.
I'd say it's more a matter of how much time you spend on said content rather than it's actual presentation. IN MMO's people spend a lot more time "grinding" than they do essentially anything else. This is especially true if those folks are jumping from game to game for years on end just doing the leveling bit.
The things you're pointing out have been an RP staple for a long time, it's never really been a problem in the actual RPG genre. I think that's because a proper RPG is centered around far more than raising arbitrary numbers over and over again. When the only real reward is essentially visual, ya! a new mob skin to fight or a cool looking sword. There's little feeling of an adventure coming to an end between games, it's just grind after grind after grind.
It doesn't matter what skin you throw on top after a while, or even how good the combat is or character building. It's the same repetitive process that's going to eventually grow old.
I see what you guys are saying but the way devs have implemented it is a direct response to how people play. The enjoyment comes (in some ways) from having an imagination and actually reading. If an NPC gives you a quest to kill 10 rats because he needs the meat to feed the guard dogs that keep monsters from coming in the town you'd have more fun undertaking the task than if you just clicked through all the text and seen a quest guide saying, " kill 10 rats". But since reading quest text or even listening to a voice actor explain things is too much work or too time consuming for people, the ideas of story or even meaningful content is lost. RPGs have never been for the, "I want it now" crowd. That's what's happening to both single player and MMO rpgs.
The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
+1 the "going with a stick to kill rats" to " to kill the most evil thing in the game" is where the fun is....
imo is the travel , not the finish line what makes RPG amazing
The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. Most of us think of it as the adventure. That is the reason we play From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
You are right but the devs doesn't always make it easy for us. Daily quests and things so uninspired that a 10 year old would have made a better job.
And the "start by killing rats and turn into a demi-God" might work but all MMPRPGs don't have to use the exact same ideas.
A lot of the reasons a MMORPG can feel grindy is that it feels like most of the content just is copy pasted from other games I already played. Fantasy have a lot of different settings and options but few games go for much that feels different and playing content that feels like you already did it many times feel far grindier then something that are different.
As I it, grind is a mix of personal feelings and bad game design.
I'd say it's more a matter of how much time you spend on said content rather than it's actual presentation. IN MMO's people spend a lot more time "grinding" than they do essentially anything else. This is especially true if those folks are jumping from game to game for years on end just doing the leveling bit.
The things you're pointing out have been an RP staple for a long time, it's never really been a problem in the actual RPG genre. I think that's because a proper RPG is centered around far more than raising arbitrary numbers over and over again. When the only real reward is essentially visual, ya! a new mob skin to fight or a cool looking sword. There's little feeling of an adventure coming to an end between games, it's just grind after grind after grind.
It doesn't matter what skin you throw on top after a while, or even how good the combat is or character building. It's the same repetitive process that's going to eventually grow old.
I see what you guys are saying but the way devs have implemented it is a direct response to how people play. The enjoyment comes (in some ways) from having an imagination and actually reading. If an NPC gives you a quest to kill 10 rats because he needs the meat to feed the guard dogs that keep monsters from coming in the town you'd have more fun undertaking the task than if you just clicked through all the text and seen a quest guide saying, " kill 10 rats". But since reading quest text or even listening to a voice actor explain things is too much work or too time consuming for people, the ideas of story or even meaningful content is lost. RPGs have never been for the, "I want it now" crowd. That's what's happening to both single player and MMO rpgs.
Killing 10 rats is an awful trope and the way most content is dressed up is about as good as daytime drama shows. The reason we still enjoyed things in our mmorpg was that there was so much more than just the content for us to experience. Problem is that far too many mmorpg are built using the same mould and the more you played them, the quicker you recognize the sameness and the quicker you get bored.
Its not about an "i want it now" crowd or a collective burnout, its about developers that adds a huge amount of filler to their leveling content.
Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
Fun time eaters, action packed combat and suited to player skill difficulty is the thing i play mmo's for. 'Grind' is bad term for that - it only shows this aspect as negative, but still level progression is fun and time consuming in a good way.
In mmo time eaters are most important of all aspects. I, for one opinion, like to grind. You must embrace the grind, and take it slowly with brakes. Like a marathon, not a sprint. It is easy to burn out yourself, if your chasing high lvl numbers by forcing your will.
If approached in good way, and constructed in a fun way grind is the heart of good mmo.
The grind might bother me at some point if when i login i only have 1 thing to do during weeks / months.
If game offer me diferent paths to reach same objective (lvl up for example) hardly get bored, like Archeage for example. Even Albion Online where to lvl up a certain weapon we need to use it and grind a huge amount of mobs but we can do it while lvl up a certain gather skill, and if i get bored i can just focus on crafting a little.
I play mmorpgs because the feeling of progression over time (solo or group depends the game), ofc the progression must be fun in some way and the term grinding will allways be connected.
Give me more than 1 option to do in-game in any lvl while progression and im ok with grinding.
I do not agree with OP in the least. One of my first MMO's was Lineage 2 and I managed to grind my way to max level in that game several times. That was the grind from hell and it got much worse at later levels. I have yet to see a game come close to matching that level of grind. Not that I want too. However, I do feel that a progression system is necessary.
The thing about that, and L2 is a perfect example of this, is that "how long does it take to reach level cap" is *all* many people seem to care about. It's all they focus on. Every second they're logged in is spent on doing nothing but following the fastest and most efficient path to level cap, because "that's where the real game starts" - or so people want to argue. There's literally tons of other content, goals and such they can be focusing on along the way. But they don't have time for that! It just slows them down! All that matters to them - their entire reason for playing - is "getting to level cap as fast as possible".
Then, once they've reached level cap - their ultimate and, really, only goal - they proceed to burn through everything there as fast as possible (because it's totally a race, after all, right?). Then, they complain about "lack of content" and "boring level grind". Well, whose fault is that? Not the game's. The game offered them plenty of other content and activities to participate in. They chose not to. They chose to ignore all that, sacrificing variety at the altar of "optimal, efficient leveling".
They get bored, announce on the official forums that they're leaving the game because it's just a terrible level grind, and they're going to "shiny new MMO here" that is *way* better, whose developers know what they're doing, and it won't be a soulless grind. Look at all the cool content it has!
Several weeks later, that player is on that new MMO's forums, announcing that they're quitting, because that MMO, too, is nothing but a soulless level grind, and they're leaving to go play "insert other shiny new MMO here" which is clearly superior... and the cycle continues.
And the cycle continues.
There are people who have been on this treadmill for literally *years*, across numerous MMOs... and they *still* haven't realized the problem is themselves, not the game(s). I've seen some of the same names across numerous MMORPGs, following the same pattern, over and over.
Meanwhile, there are many people in these same titles that play it for years, never run out of fun things to do, and have a great time. The diffference? They're actually *playing* the content, not racing through or past it.
I played L2 for several years as well, and while the leveling curve in that game was quite long, it never occurred to or bothered me. Not even the harsh death penalty really phased me. Well, dropping armor or a weapon early on, even if you weren't red, could suck... but they changed that .
Why? Because there was a ton of other stuff going on along the way. There was PvP that could spark up at any time, around any variety of content. There was the on-going server politics which was *always* awesome to watch playing out. There was dungeons, and hanging out with friends and clan-mates, reaching personal goals (reaching that next armor grade and obtaining that next set, unlocking sub-classes, etc), helping others reach theirs, and on and on. My experience in L2 was quite full. It never felt like a soulless grind to me. I have nothing but fond memories of it. The only bad memories I have involve personal drama with friends due to real-life problems.
People are free to play how ever they want, and I'll never argue otherwise. However, someone jumping from MMO to MMO to MMO and finding they never seem to be anything but "an empty boring level grind" might want to look in the mirror, because they're likely the problem.
Put another way, if the level grind is getting old and boring to you then *take off the "level cap" blinders, step off the treadmill, stop grinding levels for a while, and do some of the other freaking content the Developers/Designers have worked to provide for you*. Mix things up. Make your time more varied.
I see what you guys are saying but the way devs have implemented it is a direct response to how people play. The enjoyment comes (in some ways) from having an imagination and actually reading. If an NPC gives you a quest to kill 10 rats because he needs the meat to feed the guard dogs that keep monsters from coming in the town you'd have more fun undertaking the task than if you just clicked through all the text and seen a quest guide saying, " kill 10 rats". But since reading quest text or even listening to a voice actor explain things is too much work or too time consuming for people, the ideas of story or even meaningful content is lost. RPGs have never been for the, "I want it now" crowd. That's what's happening to both single player and MMO rpgs.
To be fair is the reason so few people bother reading or listening to the npc due to the fact that most quests have a rather pathetic poorly written story. You get a catch 22 there, devs wont bother making good story since the players don't listen to it and the players wont bother since it sucks.
I think Gw2 is on the right track here, sometimes it present it's DEs in a way that makes the same thing seems more interesting.
Comments
I personally hate the level grind in standard MMOs, but it's all down to the implementation:
- Story - too many generic quests and bad writing. All computer games suffer from bad writing (films and books are much better for story telling) but MMOs simply have so many quests that the story sucks.
- Progression - Gear is replaced within a few hours and enemy difficulty remains relatively constant: as I get stronger, so do they. So, progression is a myth during the leveling process.
- Grouping - So little of it left, but even when you want to group, mismatched quests or wrong levels get in the way.
- Difficulty - it's just too easy in standard MMOs.
The result is that I'm just bored out of my mind leveling up in just about every MMO I play. The only enjoyable bit is discovering new locations, but even then, if the MMO is very linear like Wildstar or SW:TOR, the locations aren't even enjoyable.With every MMO I try, I do attempt to enjoy it. I always start off reading all the quest text, listening to all the dialogue / voice overs etc, taking my time in each zone, completing every quest. But, 10-20 hours in my patience runs out. The shit story plus lack of challenge are the two main things that kill the leveling process for me, so from then on I do everything possible to speed through leveling and get to the good bits.
It is only at endgame where challenge kicks in. Progression actually becomes meaningful, because the increases in power are noticeable versus other players of the same level, and against the content I'm running. Grouping becomes easier, and I finally have every skill I can acquire so I can really focus on learning my character and playing the best I possibly can do.
The last MMO I enjoyed leveling in was vanilla LotRO, so nearly 10 years ago now. Whilst it was still quest based, there was loads of grouping, loads of challenging content and the story was mostly well written. But, even before the first expansion came out, they started dumbing down the leveling process and removing the challenge and group content.
So, to summarise, it's not that we think of leveling as a grind (because we don't want to level), it is that the current implementation of leveling is a grind because the activities involved are not fun. This is obviously a subjective point of view - I like challenging group content and meaningful progression, which doesn't match the current implementation, but those of you who enjoy generic stories, relaxed combat and constant loot drops obviously would prefer the current implementation.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
That it's mind-numbing boring just goes with the territory they chose for themselves.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
Instead everything shifted to Avalon City for the final level run. (Alb side)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The trees and gobs are burned into my memory though
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
There's always an exception,if that's how it was in L2 that's great, yet I've never seen such personally.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Make sense?
FFA Nonconsentual Full Loot PvP ...You know you want it!!
And the "start by killing rats and turn into a demi-God" might work but all MMPRPGs don't have to use the exact same ideas.
A lot of the reasons a MMORPG can feel grindy is that it feels like most of the content just is copy pasted from other games I already played. Fantasy have a lot of different settings and options but few games go for much that feels different and playing content that feels like you already did it many times feel far grindier then something that are different.
As I it, grind is a mix of personal feelings and bad game design.
The things you're pointing out have been an RP staple for a long time, it's never really been a problem in the actual RPG genre. I think that's because a proper RPG is centered around far more than raising arbitrary numbers over and over again. When the only real reward is essentially visual, ya! a new mob skin to fight or a cool looking sword. There's little feeling of an adventure coming to an end between games, it's just grind after grind after grind.
It doesn't matter what skin you throw on top after a while, or even how good the combat is or character building. It's the same repetitive process that's going to eventually grow old.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Anything will eventually become old and boring but good content and mechanics that feels different and fun will last you far longer then killing rats in the moat in another game that feels like a cheaper version of Wow.
Players stay far shorter today in the same game then they did in '99 or '05 but the levelgrind is lower today then ever before, clearly is not the time to level the problem but the grind is elsewhere. And I think you hit the head on the nail with the comment about feeling of adventure, that is what MMOs lost or at least gotten far less of and that is what the genre need to discover again.
I hate the new MMOs for the fact that within a couple of hours (even within 40 hours) you can reach the maximum level and then you gotta enter the treadmill of dungeons for better gear, which in turn is needed for an other treadmill of dungeons for even better gear, which in turn...well, you get the drift...
Just give me something like old Lineage II back and I'm happy to grind my ass off for hours to achieve yet an other level.
RPGs have never been for the, "I want it now" crowd.
That's what's happening to both single player and MMO rpgs.
imo is the travel , not the finish line what makes RPG amazing
Its not about an "i want it now" crowd or a collective burnout, its about developers that adds a huge amount of filler to their leveling content.
'Grind' is bad term for that - it only shows this aspect as negative, but still level progression is fun and time consuming in a good way.
In mmo time eaters are most important of all aspects. I, for one opinion, like to grind. You must embrace the grind, and take it slowly with brakes. Like a marathon, not a sprint. It is easy to burn out yourself, if your chasing high lvl numbers by forcing your will.
If approached in good way, and constructed in a fun way grind is the heart of good mmo.
If game offer me diferent paths to reach same objective (lvl up for example) hardly get bored, like Archeage for example.
Even Albion Online where to lvl up a certain weapon we need to use it and grind a huge amount of mobs but we can do it while lvl up a certain gather skill, and if i get bored i can just focus on crafting a little.
I play mmorpgs because the feeling of progression over time (solo or group depends the game), ofc the progression must be fun in some way and the term grinding will allways be connected.
Give me more than 1 option to do in-game in any lvl while progression and im ok with grinding.
Then, once they've reached level cap - their ultimate and, really, only goal - they proceed to burn through everything there as fast as possible (because it's totally a race, after all, right?). Then, they complain about "lack of content" and "boring level grind". Well, whose fault is that? Not the game's. The game offered them plenty of other content and activities to participate in. They chose not to. They chose to ignore all that, sacrificing variety at the altar of "optimal, efficient leveling".
They get bored, announce on the official forums that they're leaving the game because it's just a terrible level grind, and they're going to "shiny new MMO here" that is *way* better, whose developers know what they're doing, and it won't be a soulless grind. Look at all the cool content it has!
Several weeks later, that player is on that new MMO's forums, announcing that they're quitting, because that MMO, too, is nothing but a soulless level grind, and they're leaving to go play "insert other shiny new MMO here" which is clearly superior... and the cycle continues.
And the cycle continues.
There are people who have been on this treadmill for literally *years*, across numerous MMOs... and they *still* haven't realized the problem is themselves, not the game(s). I've seen some of the same names across numerous MMORPGs, following the same pattern, over and over.
Meanwhile, there are many people in these same titles that play it for years, never run out of fun things to do, and have a great time. The diffference? They're actually *playing* the content, not racing through or past it.
I played L2 for several years as well, and while the leveling curve in that game was quite long, it never occurred to or bothered me. Not even the harsh death penalty really phased me. Well, dropping armor or a weapon early on, even if you weren't red, could suck... but they changed that
Why? Because there was a ton of other stuff going on along the way. There was PvP that could spark up at any time, around any variety of content. There was the on-going server politics which was *always* awesome to watch playing out. There was dungeons, and hanging out with friends and clan-mates, reaching personal goals (reaching that next armor grade and obtaining that next set, unlocking sub-classes, etc), helping others reach theirs, and on and on. My experience in L2 was quite full. It never felt like a soulless grind to me. I have nothing but fond memories of it. The only bad memories I have involve personal drama with friends due to real-life problems.
People are free to play how ever they want, and I'll never argue otherwise. However, someone jumping from MMO to MMO to MMO and finding they never seem to be anything but "an empty boring level grind" might want to look in the mirror, because they're likely the problem.
Put another way, if the level grind is getting old and boring to you then *take off the "level cap" blinders, step off the treadmill, stop grinding levels for a while, and do some of the other freaking content the Developers/Designers have worked to provide for you*. Mix things up. Make your time more varied.
I think Gw2 is on the right track here, sometimes it present it's DEs in a way that makes the same thing seems more interesting.