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Level Grind: can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?

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  • BcudaBcuda Member UncommonPosts: 157
    I enjoyed the reward /title of Orc slayer. collecting different parts of the different beast out there.

  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    merv808 said:
    The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. 
    Most of us think of it as the adventure.
    That is the reason we play
    From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. 
    If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
    You are right but the devs doesn't always make it easy for us. Daily quests and things so uninspired that a 10 year old would have made a better job.

    And the "start by killing rats and turn into a demi-God" might work but all MMPRPGs don't have to use the exact same ideas.

    A lot of the reasons a MMORPG can feel grindy is that it feels like most of the content just is copy pasted from other games I already played. Fantasy have a lot of different settings and options but few games go for much that feels different and playing content that feels like you already did it many times feel far grindier then something that are different.

    As I it, grind is a mix of personal feelings and bad game design.
  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited April 2017
    Loke666 said:
    merv808 said:
    The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. 
    Most of us think of it as the adventure.
    That is the reason we play
    From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. 
    If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
    You are right but the devs doesn't always make it easy for us. Daily quests and things so uninspired that a 10 year old would have made a better job.

    And the "start by killing rats and turn into a demi-God" might work but all MMPRPGs don't have to use the exact same ideas.

    A lot of the reasons a MMORPG can feel grindy is that it feels like most of the content just is copy pasted from other games I already played. Fantasy have a lot of different settings and options but few games go for much that feels different and playing content that feels like you already did it many times feel far grindier then something that are different.

    As I it, grind is a mix of personal feelings and bad game design.
    I'd say it's more a matter of how much time you spend on said content rather than it's actual presentation. IN MMO's people spend a lot more time "grinding" than they do essentially anything else. This is especially true if those folks are jumping from game to game for years on end just doing the leveling bit.

    The things you're pointing out have been an RP staple for a long time, it's never really been a problem in the actual RPG genre. I think that's because a proper RPG is centered around far more than raising arbitrary numbers over and over again. When the only real reward is essentially visual, ya! a new mob skin to fight or a cool looking sword.  There's little feeling of an adventure coming to an end between games, it's just grind after grind after grind.

    It doesn't matter what skin you throw on top after a while, or even how good the combat is or character building. It's the same repetitive process that's going to eventually grow old. 

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Distopia said:
    I'd say it's more a matter of how much time you spend on said content rather than it's actual presentation. IN MMO's people spend a lot more time "grinding" than they do essentially anything else. This is especially true if those folks are jumping from game to game for years on end just doing the leveling bit.

    The things you're pointing out have been an RP staple for a long time, it's never really been a problem in the actual RPG genre. I think that's because a proper RPG is centered around far more than raising arbitrary numbers over and over again. When the only real reward is essentially visual, ya! a new mob skin to fight or a cool looking sword.  There's little feeling of an adventure coming to an end between games, it's just grind after grind after grind.

    It doesn't matter what skin you throw on top after a while, or even how good the combat is or character building. It's the same repetitive process that's going to eventually grow old. 
    That is of course an important factor as well, the longer you need to spend in a specific area the better designed it needs to be to not turn into a boring grind.                                                                                                                                      
    Anything will eventually become old and boring but good content and mechanics that feels different and fun will last you far longer then killing rats in the moat in another game that feels like a cheaper version of Wow.

    Players stay far shorter today in the same game then they did in '99 or '05 but the levelgrind is lower today then ever before, clearly is not the time to level the problem  but the grind is elsewhere. And I think you hit the head on the nail with the comment about feeling of adventure, that is what MMOs lost or at least gotten far less of and that is what the genre need to discover again.
  • ReizlaReizla Member RarePosts: 4,071
    "MOST" =/= "ALL"

    I hate the new MMOs for the fact that within a couple of hours (even within 40 hours) you can reach the maximum level and then you gotta enter the treadmill of dungeons for better gear, which in turn is needed for an other treadmill of dungeons for even better gear, which in turn...well, you get the drift...

    Just give me something like old Lineage II back and I'm happy to grind my ass off for hours to achieve yet an other level.

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  • merv808merv808 Member UncommonPosts: 511
    Distopia said:
    Loke666 said:
    merv808 said:
    The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. 
    Most of us think of it as the adventure.
    That is the reason we play
    From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. 
    If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
    You are right but the devs doesn't always make it easy for us. Daily quests and things so uninspired that a 10 year old would have made a better job.

    And the "start by killing rats and turn into a demi-God" might work but all MMPRPGs don't have to use the exact same ideas.

    A lot of the reasons a MMORPG can feel grindy is that it feels like most of the content just is copy pasted from other games I already played. Fantasy have a lot of different settings and options but few games go for much that feels different and playing content that feels like you already did it many times feel far grindier then something that are different.

    As I it, grind is a mix of personal feelings and bad game design.
    I'd say it's more a matter of how much time you spend on said content rather than it's actual presentation. IN MMO's people spend a lot more time "grinding" than they do essentially anything else. This is especially true if those folks are jumping from game to game for years on end just doing the leveling bit.

    The things you're pointing out have been an RP staple for a long time, it's never really been a problem in the actual RPG genre. I think that's because a proper RPG is centered around far more than raising arbitrary numbers over and over again. When the only real reward is essentially visual, ya! a new mob skin to fight or a cool looking sword.  There's little feeling of an adventure coming to an end between games, it's just grind after grind after grind.

    It doesn't matter what skin you throw on top after a while, or even how good the combat is or character building. It's the same repetitive process that's going to eventually grow old. 
    I see what you guys are saying but the way devs have implemented it is a direct response to how people play. The enjoyment comes (in some ways) from having an imagination and actually reading. If an NPC gives you a quest to kill 10 rats because he needs the meat to feed the guard dogs that keep monsters from coming in the town you'd have more fun undertaking the task than if you just clicked through all the text and seen a quest guide saying, " kill 10 rats".  But since reading quest text or even listening to a voice actor explain things is too much work or too time consuming for people, the ideas of story or even meaningful content is lost.
    RPGs have never been for the, "I want it now" crowd.
    That's what's happening to both single player and MMO rpgs.
  • WarlyxWarlyx Member RarePosts: 2,857
    merv808 said:
    The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. 
    Most of us think of it as the adventure.
    That is the reason we play
    From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. 
    If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
    +1 the "going with a stick to kill rats" to " to kill the most evil thing in the game" is where the fun is....

    imo is the travel , not the finish line what makes RPG amazing
  • ShaighShaigh Member RarePosts: 1,987
    merv808 said:
    Distopia said:
    Loke666 said:
    merv808 said:
    The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. 
    Most of us think of it as the adventure.
    That is the reason we play
    From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. 
    If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
    You are right but the devs doesn't always make it easy for us. Daily quests and things so uninspired that a 10 year old would have made a better job.

    And the "start by killing rats and turn into a demi-God" might work but all MMPRPGs don't have to use the exact same ideas.

    A lot of the reasons a MMORPG can feel grindy is that it feels like most of the content just is copy pasted from other games I already played. Fantasy have a lot of different settings and options but few games go for much that feels different and playing content that feels like you already did it many times feel far grindier then something that are different.

    As I it, grind is a mix of personal feelings and bad game design.
    I'd say it's more a matter of how much time you spend on said content rather than it's actual presentation. IN MMO's people spend a lot more time "grinding" than they do essentially anything else. This is especially true if those folks are jumping from game to game for years on end just doing the leveling bit.

    The things you're pointing out have been an RP staple for a long time, it's never really been a problem in the actual RPG genre. I think that's because a proper RPG is centered around far more than raising arbitrary numbers over and over again. When the only real reward is essentially visual, ya! a new mob skin to fight or a cool looking sword.  There's little feeling of an adventure coming to an end between games, it's just grind after grind after grind.

    It doesn't matter what skin you throw on top after a while, or even how good the combat is or character building. It's the same repetitive process that's going to eventually grow old. 
    I see what you guys are saying but the way devs have implemented it is a direct response to how people play. The enjoyment comes (in some ways) from having an imagination and actually reading. If an NPC gives you a quest to kill 10 rats because he needs the meat to feed the guard dogs that keep monsters from coming in the town you'd have more fun undertaking the task than if you just clicked through all the text and seen a quest guide saying, " kill 10 rats".  But since reading quest text or even listening to a voice actor explain things is too much work or too time consuming for people, the ideas of story or even meaningful content is lost.
    RPGs have never been for the, "I want it now" crowd.
    That's what's happening to both single player and MMO rpgs.
    Killing 10 rats is an awful trope and the way most content is dressed up is about as good as daytime drama shows. The reason we still enjoyed things in our mmorpg was that there was so much more than just the content for us to experience. Problem is that far too many mmorpg are built using the same mould and the more you played them, the quicker you recognize the sameness and the quicker you get bored.

    Its not about an "i want it now" crowd or a collective burnout, its about developers that adds a huge amount of filler to their leveling content.
    The cynic knows the price of everything and the value of nothing.
  • squlltaxsqulltax Member UncommonPosts: 22
    edited April 2017
    Fun time eaters, action packed combat and suited to player skill difficulty is the thing i play mmo's for. 
    'Grind' is bad term for that - it only shows this aspect as negative, but still level progression is fun and time consuming in a good way.

    In mmo time eaters are most important of all aspects.  I, for one opinion, like to grind. You must embrace the grind, and take it slowly with brakes. Like a marathon, not a sprint.   It is easy to burn out yourself, if your chasing high lvl numbers by forcing your will.

    If approached in good way, and constructed in a fun way grind is the heart of good mmo.  
  • JabasJabas Member UncommonPosts: 1,249
    The grind might bother me at some point if when i login i only have 1 thing to do during weeks / months.

    If game offer me diferent paths to reach same objective (lvl up for example) hardly get bored, like Archeage for example.
    Even Albion Online where to lvl up a certain weapon we need to use it and grind a huge amount of mobs but we can do it while lvl up a certain gather skill, and if i get bored i can just focus on crafting a little.

    I play mmorpgs because the feeling of progression over time (solo or group depends the game), ofc the progression must be fun in some way and the term grinding will allways be connected.

    Give me more than 1 option to do in-game in any lvl while progression and im ok with grinding.
  • timtracktimtrack Member UncommonPosts: 529
    How to create a 7+ page bait-thread 101
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,205
    Distopia said:
    Vardahoth DAOC and SWG were both pre-WOW, which it was like I said for the most part. IN SWG's case most just joined solo grind groups and took missions with the easiest mobs to kill, mostly quenkers on Dantooine since they had some of the highest mob count within a lair (the most XP). People avoided diseased lairs or lairs with harder mobs for the most, especially lairs with mobs that poisoned or diseased you.

    There's always an exception,if that's how it was in L2 that's great, yet I've never seen such personally.
    In l2 there is a sense of danger all the time. The PvP is FFA, the PK happens often, the world is open even the dungeons, so everyone compete for the grinding spots. You lose experience when the character dies, and there is a chance for drop of gear. So to play alone is very risky. The mobs are hard. There is also a holy trinity. So the players join groups and stay together. They compete in groups. And that changes completely the behavior.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,205
    genaknosc said:
    I wish somebody could explain to me how doing the same crap 1,000 times is meaningful "character progression".
    Lets say you want to be a carpenter.  You start by making a box.  Your first few boxes are rather rickety and fall apart quickly.  You decide to purchase some better tools to make better boxes.  Your boxes are better but now you want bigger fancier boxes.  So you purchase fancier tools. Your skills at making boxes are constantly improving.  And now you are pumping out boxes by the 1000's but they are so much better than that first box.  You are now a master box maker!

    Make sense?

    No. As you cannot make more and better both.

  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member UncommonPosts: 392
    edited April 2017
    Hatefull said:
    I do not agree with OP in the least.  One of my first MMO's was Lineage 2 and I managed to grind my way to max level in that game several times.  That was the grind from hell and it got much worse at later levels. I have yet to see a game come close to matching that level of grind.  Not that I want too.  However, I do feel that a progression system is necessary.

    The thing about that, and L2 is a perfect example of this, is that "how long does it take to reach level cap" is *all* many people seem to care about. It's all they focus on. Every second they're logged in is spent on doing nothing but following the fastest and most efficient path to level cap, because "that's where the real game starts" - or so people want to argue. There's literally tons of other content, goals and such they can be focusing on along the way. But they don't have time for that! It just slows them down! All that matters to them - their entire reason for playing - is "getting to level cap as fast as possible".

    Then, once they've reached level cap - their ultimate and, really, only goal - they proceed to burn through everything there as fast as possible (because it's totally a race, after all, right?). Then, they complain about "lack of content" and "boring level grind". Well, whose fault is that? Not the game's. The game offered them plenty of other content and activities to participate in. They chose not to. They chose to ignore all that, sacrificing variety at the altar of "optimal, efficient leveling".

    They get bored, announce on the official forums that they're leaving the game because it's just a terrible level grind, and they're going to "shiny new MMO here" that is *way* better, whose developers know what they're doing, and it won't be a soulless grind. Look at all the cool content it has!

    Several weeks later, that player is on that new MMO's forums, announcing that they're quitting, because that MMO, too, is nothing but a soulless level grind, and they're leaving to go play "insert other shiny new MMO here" which is clearly superior... and the cycle continues.

    And the cycle continues.

    There are people who have been on this treadmill for literally *years*, across numerous MMOs... and they *still* haven't realized the problem is themselves, not the game(s). I've seen some of the same names across numerous MMORPGs, following the same pattern, over and over. 

    Meanwhile, there are many people in these same titles that play it for years, never run out of fun things to do, and have a great time. The diffference? They're actually *playing* the content, not racing through or past it.

    I played L2 for several years as well, and while the leveling curve in that game was quite long, it never occurred to or bothered me. Not even the harsh death penalty really phased me. Well, dropping armor or a weapon early on, even if you weren't red, could suck... but they changed that :p.

    Why? Because there was a ton of other stuff going on along the way. There was PvP that could spark up at any time, around any variety of content. There was the on-going server politics which was *always* awesome to watch playing out. There was dungeons, and hanging out with friends and clan-mates, reaching personal goals (reaching that next armor grade and obtaining that next set, unlocking sub-classes, etc), helping others reach theirs, and on and on. My experience in L2 was quite full. It never felt like a soulless grind to me. I have nothing but fond memories of it. The only bad memories I have involve personal drama with friends due to real-life problems. 

    People are free to play how ever they want, and I'll never argue otherwise. However, someone jumping from MMO to MMO to MMO and finding they never seem to be anything but "an empty boring level grind" might want to look in the mirror, because they're likely the problem.

    Put another way, if the level grind is getting old and boring to you then *take off the "level cap" blinders, step off the treadmill, stop grinding levels for a while, and do some of the other freaking content the Developers/Designers have worked to provide for you*. Mix things up. Make your time more varied.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,205
    edited April 2017
    People are free to play how ever they want, and I'll never argue otherwise. However, someone jumping from MMO to MMO to MMO and finding they never seem to be anything but "an empty boring level grind" might want to look in the mirror, because they're likely the problem.
    To reach the cap in L2 takes many months. You cannot jump. As for the grind, it is terrible, but the game offers a lot of multiplayer gameplay and goals. While most modern so called MMORPGs offer a lot of solo grind, and nothing else. For example BDO - you grind mobs, quests, and many solo activities as cooking gathering, farming and etc. But the PvP is completely pointless. It changes nothing. There is no competition and need of cooperation. While exactly the competition makes L2 so good.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    merv808 said:
    I see what you guys are saying but the way devs have implemented it is a direct response to how people play. The enjoyment comes (in some ways) from having an imagination and actually reading. If an NPC gives you a quest to kill 10 rats because he needs the meat to feed the guard dogs that keep monsters from coming in the town you'd have more fun undertaking the task than if you just clicked through all the text and seen a quest guide saying, " kill 10 rats".  But since reading quest text or even listening to a voice actor explain things is too much work or too time consuming for people, the ideas of story or even meaningful content is lost.
    RPGs have never been for the, "I want it now" crowd.
    That's what's happening to both single player and MMO rpgs.
    To be fair is the reason so few people bother reading or listening to the npc due to the fact that most quests have a rather pathetic poorly written story. You get a catch 22 there, devs wont bother making good story since the players don't listen to it and the players wont bother since it sucks.

    I think Gw2 is on the right track here, sometimes it present it's DEs in a way that makes the same thing seems more interesting.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,146
    Distopia said:
    merv808 said:
    The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. 
    Most of us think of it as the adventure.
    That is the reason we play
    From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. 
    If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
    It all depends what aspects of RPGs you enjoy. 

    I personally hate the level grind in standard MMOs, but it's all down to the implementation:
    • Story - too many generic quests and bad writing. All computer games suffer from bad writing (films and books are much better for story telling) but MMOs simply have so many quests that the story sucks. 
    • Progression - Gear is replaced within a few hours and enemy difficulty remains relatively constant: as I get stronger, so do they. So, progression is a myth during the leveling process. 
    • Grouping - So little of it left, but even when you want to group, mismatched quests or wrong levels get in the way. 
    • Difficulty - it's just too easy in standard MMOs. 
    The result is that I'm just bored out of my mind leveling up in just about every MMO I play. The only enjoyable bit is discovering new locations, but even then, if the MMO is very linear like Wildstar or SW:TOR, the locations aren't even enjoyable. 

    With every MMO I try, I do attempt to enjoy it. I always start off reading all the quest text, listening to all the dialogue / voice overs etc, taking my time in each zone, completing every quest. But, 10-20 hours in my patience runs out. The shit story plus lack of challenge are the two main things that kill the leveling process for me, so from then on I do everything possible to speed through leveling and get to the good bits. 

    It is only at endgame where challenge kicks in. Progression actually becomes meaningful, because the increases in power are noticeable versus other players of the same level, and against the content I'm running. Grouping becomes easier, and I finally have every skill I can acquire so I can really focus on learning my character and playing the best I possibly can do. 


    The last MMO I enjoyed leveling in was vanilla LotRO, so nearly 10 years ago now. Whilst it was still quest based, there was loads of grouping, loads of challenging content and the story was mostly well written. But, even before the first expansion came out, they started dumbing down the leveling process and removing the challenge and group content. 



    So, to summarise, it's not that we think of leveling as a grind (because we don't want to level), it is that the current implementation of leveling is a grind because the activities involved are not fun. This is obviously a subjective point of view - I like challenging group content and meaningful progression, which doesn't match the current implementation, but those of you who enjoy generic stories, relaxed combat and constant loot drops obviously would prefer the current implementation. 
    In all the MMORPGs I've tried I have never once run into a leveling group that was looking for hard content to grind on. Most purposely avoid anything that doesn't drop fast to group DPS. So I can't really blame devs for dropping the difficulty across the board in cases like LOTRO. When most of your players are hellbent on following a crash course through the experience, you might as well give them the good stuff to play through. Rather than have them bitching and moaning that they're bored of the mobs they've been grinding. 
    It's not about looking for hard content to grind on - none of us want to grind. 

    It is simply about looking for fun content, but sadly trivial content isn't fun for a lot of us. 

    In LotRO specifically, the problem was never with the difficulty level or the amount of group content. It was baked into the game from launch that player skill and grouping were important, and just about everyone accepted that. PUGs were nearly always polite and helpful, grouping was easy, and as a result LotRO ended up with a great community. 

    The problem with LotRO specifically became apparent about a year after launch. The problem with having group content (which is far easier to balance around player skill) is that you need other people to group with. After about a year from launch, most people had reached the cap so it became really hard to find groups. Due to mostly linear design, this prevented some people from progressing. The problem became even worse after expansions. 

    So, Turbine stopped producing challenging group content as part of the leveling process, and then had to go back and waste money revamping previous areas to make them soloable. The problem with solo content is you have to balance around the weakest classes, so it trivialised the content for just about everyone. 


    That said, I totally understand the need for Turbine to do the revamps - new players are the lifeblood of MMOs, so if your leveling experience sucks because you're late to the party, the new players will quit. 


    This is why scaling technology is so important. If you're game is based around vertical progression (which 99% are), then any grouping or challenging content that you put into the leveling process will quite quickly become a barrier to enjoyment because the pool of players available to take it on drops below a critical level. We need scaling technology, preferably technology that scales the content to the player and group size rather than technology that scales the player to the content. That way, if I want to level up in a group, all the quests become group-based and much more challenging and enjoyable, but 2 years after launch, I can still complete that quest solo if nobody else is around. 
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,146
    Hatefull said:
    I do not agree with OP in the least.  One of my first MMO's was Lineage 2 and I managed to grind my way to max level in that game several times.  That was the grind from hell and it got much worse at later levels. I have yet to see a game come close to matching that level of grind.  Not that I want too.  However, I do feel that a progression system is necessary.

    The thing about that, and L2 is a perfect example of this, is that "how long does it take to reach level cap" is *all* many people seem to care about. It's all they focus on. Every second they're logged in is spent on doing nothing but following the fastest and most efficient path to level cap, because "that's where the real game starts" - or so people want to argue. There's literally tons of other content, goals and such they can be focusing on along the way. But they don't have time for that! It just slows them down! All that matters to them - their entire reason for playing - is "getting to level cap as fast as possible".

    Then, once they've reached level cap - their ultimate and, really, only goal - they proceed to burn through everything there as fast as possible (because it's totally a race, after all, right?). Then, they complain about "lack of content" and "boring level grind". Well, whose fault is that? Not the game's. The game offered them plenty of other content and activities to participate in. They chose not to. They chose to ignore all that, sacrificing variety at the altar of "optimal, efficient leveling".

    They get bored, announce on the official forums that they're leaving the game because it's just a terrible level grind, and they're going to "shiny new MMO here" that is *way* better, whose developers know what they're doing, and it won't be a soulless grind. Look at all the cool content it has!

    Several weeks later, that player is on that new MMO's forums, announcing that they're quitting, because that MMO, too, is nothing but a soulless level grind, and they're leaving to go play "insert other shiny new MMO here" which is clearly superior... and the cycle continues.

    And the cycle continues.
    From the outside, I'm one of those people you describe (except, I don't game hop). 

    In every MMO I play, I start out attempting to enjoy the leveling process. I really put myself into the game, I read all the story, do all the side quests, go off exploring etc. 

    You know what? It sucks! Each and every time, it sucks balls. Bad story lines, boring mechanics, trivial content and meaningless progression....I can't comprehend how people enjoy leveling in MMOs unless they don't care about gameplay at all, and only care about mediocre stories. SWG was fairly enjoyable leveling, not because of the gameplay, but because it was a social experience. LotRO, at launch, was also group orientated and so was enjoyable to level up the first time. 

    So, after I've been playing long enough to recognise that the game has been designed really badly for leveling, I do then search for the most efficient way to reach the cap and do everything I can to get there quickly. Wouldn't you? Wouldn't you try to rush past unpleasant content in an effort to reach the parts of the game you enjoy? Isn't that just sensible?


    Also, what's the problem with enjoying the endgame? Every developer that releases stats has shown us that we're a small group (average less than 10% do raids regularly, and less than 15% pvp regularly, with cross over between the two groups). We're also a fairly dedicated group and leaders of the community, so we add value to the game. 

    By far the largest demographic are the solo casual players. They don't rush to endgame, but when they hit it they either restart or game hop. They aren't a dedicated group, but they are so numerous that they bring in the most money. 


    So, i would stop moaning about the endgame crowd: we're small enough that we no longer have games that cater to us, but important enough that most devs try to appease us a little bit. We may be quite vocal in our hatred for the leveling process (well, some people anyway), but we're only highlighting very valid problems with leveling. 
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,205
    From the outside, I'm one of those people you describe (except, I don't game hop). 

    In every MMO I play, I start out attempting to enjoy the leveling process. I really put myself into the game, I read all the story, do all the side quests, go off exploring etc. 

    You know what? It sucks!
    Because the solo developer's written story is not so important, as the MMO is a multiplayer game made to be played with other players, or it should be.
  • DrDread74DrDread74 Member UncommonPosts: 308

    You should be having fun playing the game, the progression is gravy. if its "grinding" to you then you have fallen for playing a bad game where  you only get happiness from the little numbers going up. You're a heroin addict, go to Rehab and play a different game that is fun by default.

    I'm playing For Honor. It has a lot of "grinding" if  you play it that way. But I'm having alot of fun just playing it. If it had no progression I would still play it. It even has the dueling modes that disregard any items or feats, levels you've aquired. You are playing at "defaults". More games should be like this. For honor would make an excelent PvP MMO


    http://baronsofthegalaxy.com/
     An MMO game I created, solo. It's live now and absolutely free to play!
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    DrDread74 said:

    You should be having fun playing the game, the progression is gravy. if its "grinding" to you then you have fallen for playing a bad game where  you only get happiness from the little numbers going up. You're a heroin addict, go to Rehab and play a different game that is fun by default.

    I'm playing For Honor. It has a lot of "grinding" if  you play it that way. But I'm having alot of fun just playing it. If it had no progression I would still play it. It even has the dueling modes that disregard any items or feats, levels you've aquired. You are playing at "defaults". More games should be like this. For honor would make an excelent PvP MMO

    True but all MMOs do have a bit of grind no matter how you play it. If you have a lot then you should indeed try to play it in another way or try to explore new places in the game but some games do have more grind then others no matter, the less content the more you will need to repeat it and the more grind you will get.

    Even the right attitude wont help when you run the same dungeon for the 50th time after all or when you do the same daily quest as yesterday and the day before that...
  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 6,756
    Grind and MMOs have to live together we like it or not.

    People play one MMO for years, it's common to see people going past the 1000 hours on the game. It's obvious no game can offer +1000 hours of gameplay without Grind, there has to be stuff to play for, objectives, end-game progression and so forth.

    It's what keeps people playing, the only thing that can be done is provide enough gameplay to make it fun to keep playing and do not it fall into repetitive content that is not fun.
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 2,403
    People keep conflating mmo grind with rpg character progression: the two are quite different. 


    ....
  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited April 2017
    Vardahoth said:
    Distopia said:
    merv808 said:
    The problem is that you think of it as a level grind. 
    Most of us think of it as the adventure.
    That is the reason we play
    From starting out in a small town killing rats to being strong enough to face the evil overlord trying to destroy the world. Everything that happens in between is what RPGs are all about. 
    If you are not an RPG fan, perhaps you should avoid trying to change them and instead play something more your style.
    It all depends what aspects of RPGs you enjoy. 

    I personally hate the level grind in standard MMOs, but it's all down to the implementation:
    • Story - too many generic quests and bad writing. All computer games suffer from bad writing (films and books are much better for story telling) but MMOs simply have so many quests that the story sucks. 
    • Progression - Gear is replaced within a few hours and enemy difficulty remains relatively constant: as I get stronger, so do they. So, progression is a myth during the leveling process. 
    • Grouping - So little of it left, but even when you want to group, mismatched quests or wrong levels get in the way. 
    • Difficulty - it's just too easy in standard MMOs. 
    The result is that I'm just bored out of my mind leveling up in just about every MMO I play. The only enjoyable bit is discovering new locations, but even then, if the MMO is very linear like Wildstar or SW:TOR, the locations aren't even enjoyable. 

    With every MMO I try, I do attempt to enjoy it. I always start off reading all the quest text, listening to all the dialogue / voice overs etc, taking my time in each zone, completing every quest. But, 10-20 hours in my patience runs out. The shit story plus lack of challenge are the two main things that kill the leveling process for me, so from then on I do everything possible to speed through leveling and get to the good bits. 

    It is only at endgame where challenge kicks in. Progression actually becomes meaningful, because the increases in power are noticeable versus other players of the same level, and against the content I'm running. Grouping becomes easier, and I finally have every skill I can acquire so I can really focus on learning my character and playing the best I possibly can do. 


    The last MMO I enjoyed leveling in was vanilla LotRO, so nearly 10 years ago now. Whilst it was still quest based, there was loads of grouping, loads of challenging content and the story was mostly well written. But, even before the first expansion came out, they started dumbing down the leveling process and removing the challenge and group content. 



    So, to summarise, it's not that we think of leveling as a grind (because we don't want to level), it is that the current implementation of leveling is a grind because the activities involved are not fun. This is obviously a subjective point of view - I like challenging group content and meaningful progression, which doesn't match the current implementation, but those of you who enjoy generic stories, relaxed combat and constant loot drops obviously would prefer the current implementation. 
    In all the MMORPGs I've tried I have never once run into a leveling group that was looking for hard content to grind on. Most purposely avoid anything that doesn't drop fast to group DPS. So I can't really blame devs for dropping the difficulty across the board in cases like LOTRO. When most of your players are hellbent on following a crash course through the experience, you might as well give them the good stuff to play through. Rather than have them bitching and moaning that they're bored of the mobs they've been grinding. 
    I guess you never played games before WoW. In lineage 2, it was common where 9man parties were required for many grind spots and would go on for 12 hours minimum. The player base had a system of respecting each other in who was there first (or go to war over it). I had a friendlist of about 80 friends and never had trouble finding a large party grind group as a dps class. If someone had to leave, they would give a 30min warning so we could find a replacement. 1 person would hold the spot while the group escorted the replacement to that spot. Many times our groups wouldn't find a single drop that day/night, but we were okay with that because the exp (as slow as it was) was much better than duo/trioing. Plus, if you were in a large group, you generally wouldn't have to put up with player griefers.

    I was also in a clan who gathered to grind on raid bosses twice a week requiring at least 40++ people.

    Not once during the parties or raids did I hear any complaining about how long or how hard it was. It was just expected and everyone had a different character to them... something involving discipline, integrity, and perseverance.
    L2 was all about the grind.  You could group grind, solo grind, 2 box, or 3 box grind.  That was the nature of the game as well as waiting and hour or more for a raid to come together.  Only a few years ago did they add fast leveling at lower levels to attract more people.  Most MMO's realize that the majority don't want hard as much as fast.  So they try and balance between both, and even offer high level characters for sale or instant level potions and scrolls.  


    And that is why these mmorpgs have ultimately been destroyed for me. It also ruined the p2p market if you can beat the game in a few weeks. Why bother paying a monthly sub for years when the game lasts 2 weeks.

    genaknosc said:
    I wish somebody could explain to me how doing the same crap 1,000 times is meaningful "character progression".
    Get involved into something where everyone is not a winner, and you will understand.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

  • VardahothVardahoth Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited April 2017
    Distopia said:
    Vardahoth said:
    I guess you never played games before WoW. In lineage 2, it was common where 9man parties were required for many grind spots and would go on for 12 hours minimum. The player base had a system of respecting each other in who was there first (or go to war over it). I had a friendlist of about 80 friends and never had trouble finding a large party grind group as a dps class. If someone had to leave, they would give a 30min warning so we could find a replacement. 1 person would hold the spot while the group escorted the replacement to that spot. Many times our groups wouldn't find a single drop that day/night, but we were okay with that because the exp (as slow as it was) was much better than duo/trioing. Plus, if you were in a large group, you generally wouldn't have to put up with player griefers.

    I was also in a clan who gathered to grind on raid bosses twice a week requiring at least 40++ people.

    Not once during the parties or raids did I hear any complaining about how long or how hard it was. It was just expected and everyone had a different character to them... something involving discipline, integrity, and perseverance.
    Vardahoth DAOC and SWG were both pre-WOW, which it was like I said for the most part. IN SWG's case most just joined solo grind groups and took missions with the easiest mobs to kill, mostly quenkers on Dantooine since they had some of the highest mob count within a lair (the most XP). People avoided diseased lairs or lairs with harder mobs for the most, especially lairs with mobs that poisoned or diseased you.

    There's always an exception,if that's how it was in L2 that's great, yet I've never seen such personally.
    In L2, there were both solo and group diseased lairs:
    • Blazing swamps had running lava all around where you would catch a fire debuff burning you for a while.
    • Host springs had a debuff for phys type classes.
    • Primeval Island had running t-rexes that were like raid bosses in themselves agroing anything in sight (requiring multiple parties of people to kill). 
    • There was this 80+ spot (I forget the name) where the poison would kill you fast unless you had a group to help you complete a quest and kill things to get special currency to buy pots to cure the poison. (This was one of the best exp spots in the game and many pvp fights happened here)
    I could go on, but the point is none of these areas were ever void. You would always run into people. No matter how hard it got, people always found a way to adapt and get the most out of it. This in fact separated many L2 players from the rest of the MMORPG community. I would say even making it hard to level up to end game did a good job on weeding out most of the community you wouldn't want to play with.

    I Quit.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/discussion2.cfm/thread/436845/page/1 -> http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/436845/what-killed-mmorpgs-for-you/p1

    http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2316034
    .............
    Retired Gamer: all MMORPG's have been destroyed by big business, marketing of false promises, unprofessional game makers, and a generation of "I WIN and GIVE ME NOW" (brought to you by pokeman).

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