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Level Grind: can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?

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  • waynejr2waynejr2 Member EpicPosts: 7,768
    Kilrain said:
    What turns me off is when I reach level 5 before I do anything, go looking for a mob to kill only to find there are 300 of them and they respawn every 5 seconds, required quests and pretty much anything since WoW. When I first went after a boss in WoW and all I had to do was wait 10 seconds and it spawned I actually cringed.

    Maybe you want to play some kind of game online.  Maybe  you believe what you want is an RPG of some sort.  But what if you are wrong and really want something similar to an RPG but can't find what you are looking for? 
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  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Member EpicPosts: 3,952
    waynejr2 said:
    Kilrain said:
    What turns me off is when I reach level 5 before I do anything, go looking for a mob to kill only to find there are 300 of them and they respawn every 5 seconds, required quests and pretty much anything since WoW. When I first went after a boss in WoW and all I had to do was wait 10 seconds and it spawned I actually cringed.

    Maybe you want to play some kind of game online.  Maybe  you believe what you want is an RPG of some sort.  But what if you are wrong and really want something similar to an RPG but can't find what you are looking for? 
    Seems more like your ideal of a RPG is WoW
  • VolgoreVolgore Member EpicPosts: 3,872
    To me the problem with horizontal progression is when there is not enough vertical progression possible.
    I need a ton of ways to get sidetracked while developing my character, can't just chase XP all the time.

    image
  • syriinxsyriinx Member UncommonPosts: 1,383
    When it comes to "Level Grind" in new released MMOs, can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?

    The opposite.  Ever since games started a speed to cap approach the retention in games has been terrible across the board.  The quality has gone down too of course so it could be correlation not causation, but I see zero evidence that allowing people to cap with little effort has been good for the genre at all.
  • syriinxsyriinx Member UncommonPosts: 1,383
    tallred said:
    I love a long leveling grind. But I hate a max level gear grind.

    This is probably the biggest problem of games today.  Gear grind sucks.

    One of the appeals of leveling (or gaining skill points) is that your character actually grows, permanently.  Gear is a temporary thing.  


  • TylionTylion Member CommonPosts: 2
    As a player of mmorpg such as WOW, DDO, LOTRO even runescape i feel like there should be a way of quick leveling such as DDO where the dungeons were designed to either take it slow and enjoy the story or "Zerg" your way through and level as quickly as possible to experience the character at end game. by doing this it gives you the option to create several characters that are not all grinned on . 
  • Nightbringe1Nightbringe1 Member UncommonPosts: 1,335
    When it comes to "Level Grind" in new released MMOs, can we finally admit that this turns off most players in New MMOs?

    Sorry, no.

    Leveling and world exploration are the parts of the game I enjoy the most.

    Heck, I'll spend months at a time level locked until I've completed  all content at a given level before moving on. Hitting max level and running out of new content is the last thing I want to happen.

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  • RavingRabbidRavingRabbid Member UncommonPosts: 1,168
    edited April 2017
    I have mixed feelings, but generally its not a good idea to pvp at lvl 1 unless your a sadomasacist and Play Eve Online LOL.


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  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,972
    Strong necro.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 16,599
    edited April 2017
    If level grind turns you off,then why are you playing that game?It sounds like you think the ONLY fun can be had by attaining fast levels ?
    I played long duration leveling for years,i not once thought of it as grind ,i was having fun with grouping and combat and just having real [players with me.If the level comes it comes,i never cared if it did or not because i don't game to watch a level number go up.
    Now if i found it a grind that is simply because the game was crap,the combat crap and likely no grouping,so i was hoping to get past leveling and HOPE to find something better but better never comes in a crap game.
    Know why it never comes?It is because the RIDE was omitted to aim directly for 1% of the game and idk what math people are using now a days but i find it really hard to enjoy 1% of a game while 99% is crap.So i want an enjoyable experience from the first second i login to every inch of game i encounter along the way.


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  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    We have some games like the new Legend of Zelda that show levels are not needed in an open world RPG.  Quests are also not really needed.  You can setup a world, let people explore it, and figure out its secrets.  Sometimes leveling does add some degree of fun.  It's hard to get interested in the leveling game in this day and age.  In the early MMOs people were very competitive about leveling up.  If the games were more about exploring and solving puzzles I'd probably be more interested in them than if they were simply about getting to the highest level and getting the best items.  I am not a fan of the endgame raid that these games revolve around now.
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Before i began playing BDO i would have probably agreed that grind is not a great way to do things, since playing BDO i recognise that hard work can be not just rewarding, it can be fun, there is a certain degree of satisfaction too in having worked hard for something and achieved your goal.
    With grinding in a game,  the trick seems to be how to balance the amount of grind necessary to progress in a game not just in certain activities in a game, but in the game itself overall, and for me, i think the grind in BDO, while not perfect, is acceptable without detracting from the enjoyment to be had while playing the game, and in BDO, hard work is rewarded appropriately imo. =)
  • DemogorgonDemogorgon Member UncommonPosts: 340
    Flyte27 said:
    We have some games like the new Legend of Zelda that show levels are not needed in an open world RPG.  Quests are also not really needed.  You can setup a world, let people explore it, and figure out its secrets.  Sometimes leveling does add some degree of fun.  It's hard to get interested in the leveling game in this day and age.  In the early MMOs people were very competitive about leveling up.  If the games were more about exploring and solving puzzles I'd probably be more interested in them than if they were simply about getting to the highest level and getting the best items.  I am not a fan of the endgame raid that these games revolve around now.
    Zelda is an action-aventure game... just saying. Moving on.  ;)
  • Sid_ViciousSid_Vicious Member UncommonPosts: 2,126
    I've been 'grinding' in Darkfall in beta even though there is going to a wipe in a few weeks so purely doing it for fun. Figured I should take a break so I don't get burned out though. I think level progression is fun.. when I reach the end game theres just not as many goals.

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  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Member UncommonPosts: 1,368
    I would say all kinds of stuff but people have covered pretty much everything I think I'd say on the subject.  I can live or without levels but for me the journey to endgame is usually far more fun than endgame itself.  So I most of the time would rather not race my way there.  Exception being  something like DaoC pre-Atlantis and all that junk.  The endgame for original DaoC was the best ever.  Everyone geared about the same, no gear grinding crud, just strap on your armor and go out and fight for your realm!  I am rambling.

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  • ethanlallaethanlalla Member UncommonPosts: 105
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  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Member UncommonPosts: 3,142
    edited April 2017
    @OP your argument is flawed and you fight against one of the fundamentals of RPG games, progression. Instead of stating leveling is the issue for your lack of enjoyment within an MMORPG. Why can't you admit to yourself that you don't enjoy RPG games and try something else?

    How would you entice players to stay and play your game if it lacked level progression, would you cater towards gear progression?

    Gear progression can have some very tedious grind to it as well. Take a look at Albion for example. 

    survival games also have a gear progression system and it's often more imbalanced than level progression. How would you overcome imbalanced gear?

    Hack-N-Slash games like Diablo, Path of Exile, Torchlight, Grim Dawn, and Titan Quest have repetitive gear progression which doesn't suit everyone either.

    Would you build a system strictly around crafting?

    Again, crafting is often filled with the tediousness of gathering items as well, let alone the act of crafting them. Then you go back to whether or not you're able to balance the gear players are crafting.

    I read on occasion that people would like to see an RPG which strictly supports skill progression. What's the difference in skill progression?

    You still have to grind experience for skills. 

    Lets say you want to have no progression at all in your game. How would you incentivize your customers to stay in an MMO without progression?

    Someone who is too impatient to enjoy the long haul won't enjoy it because of the nature of the genre. Instead of forcing change, why not move away from RPG games?
    Post edited by Mtibbs1989 on

    image

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  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 13,135
    I would say all kinds of stuff but people have covered pretty much everything I think I'd say on the subject.  I can live or without levels but for me the journey to endgame is usually far more fun than endgame itself.  So I most of the time would rather not race my way there.  Exception being  something like DaoC pre-Atlantis and all that junk.  The endgame for original DaoC was the best ever.  Everyone geared about the same, no gear grinding crud, just strap on your armor and go out and fight for your realm!  I am rambling.
    I was in Albion and for us those last few levels meant goblins or trees... I used to have nightmares about them :)

    I was almost out the door by the time Atlantis rolled out so I only have good memories of DAoC.
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  • TheocritusTheocritus Member EpicPosts: 7,095
    Is the alternative to grind quest/story driven games like Revelation Online where you gain levels without doing a single thing? Walk 10 feet to this NPC, you are now level 2...Turn around and click on this NPC...You are now level 3....all the way to end game?...I'd rather kill a million mobs than get rewarded for absolutely nothing.
  • TalulaRoseTalulaRose Member RarePosts: 1,247
    Not sure what this grind is, I play with people and actually talk the them. Before you know it, I wish I had more time to have fun.
  • VyntVynt Member UncommonPosts: 753
    I love leveling, whether it is by skills or levels. I enjoy seeing my character grow stronger, progress. I do agree that at end, when it is only gear grind, it can get boring, but that is why I like when games have some kind of alternate leveling then. Like EQ with its AA, growing stronger with new abilities and stats, or daoc with its realm abilities, gaining points from PvP to gain new abilities and stats. 

    It gives people something to look forward to, that is permanent and not fleeting like gear that is gone the next expansion. Of course, that problem is more on the game design because there have been plenty of games that had useful items from a few expansion passed.

    Or do something to improve current items, like the epics EQ had, or even FFXIV has. That always made me feel like my time invested wasn't a waste.

    Also, another way to make items useful when multiple expansions go by is to not make everything no drop, bind on equip, etc. I loved being able to use high end items like a Fungi tunic on alts, hehe.
  • ZoeMcCloskeyZoeMcCloskey Member UncommonPosts: 1,368
    Iselin said:
    I would say all kinds of stuff but people have covered pretty much everything I think I'd say on the subject.  I can live or without levels but for me the journey to endgame is usually far more fun than endgame itself.  So I most of the time would rather not race my way there.  Exception being  something like DaoC pre-Atlantis and all that junk.  The endgame for original DaoC was the best ever.  Everyone geared about the same, no gear grinding crud, just strap on your armor and go out and fight for your realm!  I am rambling.
    I was in Albion and for us those last few levels meant goblins or trees... I used to have nightmares about them :)

    I was almost out the door by the time Atlantis rolled out so I only have good memories of DAoC.
    I was Mid, so similar sort of ending grind.  That was one thing with DaoC back then the last levels were truly painful to get through.  Was ready to just get out and fight you Albs and Hibs! :)

    image
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,868
    Tylion said:
    As a player of mmorpg such as WOW, DDO, LOTRO even runescape i feel like there should be a way of quick leveling such as DDO where the dungeons were designed to either take it slow and enjoy the story or "Zerg" your way through and level as quickly as possible to experience the character at end game. by doing this it gives you the option to create several characters that are not all grinned on . 
    I like that GW2 has leveling scrolls.  Use them to level up a little or a lot.  Real great if you have leveled a lot of alts already.  Plus a max level scroll which you can test on any class in a high level zone for as long as you like, even then you don't have to use it and can save it for another day after your done testing, comes with max lvl gear and weapon sets to test.  Wish more games did this.

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  • MaxBaconMaxBacon Member EpicPosts: 7,113
    I prefer skill grind.

    Performing activities developing such skill, over a plain character level, you play towards what you want to play and you progress as you get good at it. 
  • MightyUncleanMightyUnclean Member EpicPosts: 2,648
    I been blastin' and grindin' so long, even my momma thinks that my mind is gone...
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