You all missed the point. Whether it's an MMO or not doesn't matter. What matters is that it will inevitably bring more development into persistent online worlds (MMO). But keep arguing over the meaning of the acronym. We haven't done that enough these last 15 years.
What type of development? That's the issue.
It's not the meaning of the acronym, it's the meaning of the gaming and environment that holds games true to the acronym.
So a group of developers who avoided "MMO" and PCs like a pissy park bench before are now good for the MMO genre on the sequel. Pardon me for scoffing. We'll see.
Why wouldn't they avoid the moniker. Just look at the pretentious backlash against associating the game with mmos.
It's good for PC mmo gamers who want more mmo in their other games and genres. It's good for gamers who love mmos and want to see more of that.
It's not good if all you want is EQ.
I must refer to you a bit about language by George Carlin. He is talking about how Shell Shocked changed into PTSD and what are the side effects of this transition. One might argue the term mmmorpg is going through the same thing and the change doesn't necessarily means anything better.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Why wouldn't they avoid the moniker. Just look at the pretentious backlash against associating the game with mmos.
It's good for PC mmo gamers who want more mmo in their other games and genres. It's good for gamers who love mmos and want to see more of that.
It's not good if all you want is EQ.
I must refer to you a bit about language by George Carlin. He is talking about how Shell Shocked changed into PTSD and what are the side effects of this transition. One might argue the term mmmorpg is going through the same thing and the change doesn't necessarily means anything better.
More like how C++ was developed from C to become a superset of the latter. That was definitely something better for a vast group of programmers and software developers.
And that's still not the point. Bill hit the nail on the head that it doesn't even have to be an MMO for it to benefit the genre and software development money directed at it. That's a good thing.
Well, I clicked on the wrong post to quote mate sorry! Let's try this again.
Again this. Yeah, keep mocking labels and genre definition - then complain you can't understand each other.
If in this site or this community MMO means multiplayer online regardless the massive requirements so be it, but please don't act as if it is a supreme truth.
For example: People here (where I live) call any type of paid driving service that is not a taxi an Uber. Is it an Uber? No it is not. Does calling it your "private uber whasapp service" will change what Uber is: No, it won't.
Bubbles, bubbles. People living in bubbles.
Calling your favorite post-rock band metal won't make you rad. It will just make you uninformed - since there is already a set consensus of what certain genres are.
If you want things to change try to question those consensus and formulate better definitions... And not start to call things whatever you please.
That's what happens to languages and words. They evolve and change. If I ask for a kleenex people don't misunderstand or look at me odd. I don't ask if the paper they're handing me is branded Kleenex.
People use Google synonymously with searching. No one cares if you use Bing or Yahoo or whatever.
There are a lot more examples of that too. MMO is one of those terms that is non-specific and I think a dictionary.com definition was given earlier. You should read it.
I must refer to you a bit about language by George Carlin. He is talking about how Shell Shocked changed into PTSD and what are the side effects of this transition. One might argue the term mmmorpg is going through the same thing and the change doesn't necessarily means anything better.
Ok now you go again.
Self-note: Don't drive and start an argument with @Torval.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
There is alot of stuff I rolled my eyes at in this article but this took the cake
"I know many of you hate the idea of Destiny being considered an MMO. It is one. Even Bungie admits it without outright saying it by including us in all of their media invites. It may not be your cup of tea and we’d all like a larger open shared world and universe capable of supporting hundreds or thousands in one space. But this is where we are at this point in time as the genre struggles to evolve past the Warcraft paradigm."
Short answer: Destiny is not an MMO.
Long answer: if the entire basis of your argument is that bungie invites you to pressers therefore it must be an MMO I would suggest the people that run this site take the time to read up on logical fallacies. . .
. . .also I though this site covered other games besides MMOs and has done so for quite some time. Has the site gone back to covering MMO's exclusively?
P.S. I know many people hate the Idea that 2+2=1. It is one.
EDIT: lastly, Having to settle for less than what was before is never a good thing. I'm talking about 3-6 player content being considered "massive" when we had games that had higher counts almost 2 decades ago. . .so what some might see as "evolving past Warcraft" I see as taking steps backwards in the genre.
Ha ha ha... Destiny is an MMO... HA HA HA! Hilarious! Best pre-April fools' article!
Why the serious comments, peepz?! I can only see this is a joke, because Bill owns a site called MMORPG.com and is supposedly a very knowledgeable person on the matter. And so are quite a few people who have played mmos and most game genres and know what MMO means without even googling it
Still laughing, though... 3 player "strikes" and 6 player "raids".. LMAO! Very large number of people. SIMULTANEOUSLY!!! Phew... need to catch my breath. And then I think there was someone who mentioned great HUB interactions (there is no chat, except party voice chat) so.. EMOTES IT IS LoL... and occasional inspects and random friends requests... really cracks me up!!!
Maybe we can get a Diablo 3 MMO article when Diablo 4 gets announced - would be awesome!
Pfuuu. That was fun. Unless it wasn't a joke, and then it's an insult to the website, the MMO gaming community and well... gamers in general, lol. Oh massive multiplayer online, you,...
Destiny is not a MMO but clueless investors and publishers think it is just that. And Bill might be right, if those people connect "MMO" and "profit" again it might lead to actual MMOs getting funding again. It might of course also leads to the revamping of real MMOs to be closer to Destiny which would suck.
But we seriously need more money invested in the genre and if clueless induhviduals invest more into actual MMOs it would be a good thing no matter what git them doing it. If they instead demand that all future MMOs should be that way we are boned.
Ha ha ha... Destiny is an MMO... HA HA HA! Hilarious! Best pre-April fools' article!
Why the serious comments, peepz?! I can only see this is a joke, because Bill owns a site called MMORPG.com and is supposedly a very knowledgeable person on the matter. And so are quite a few people who have played mmos and most game genres and know what MMO means without even googling it
Still laughing, though... 3 player "strikes" and 6 player "raids".. LMAO! Very large number of people. SIMULTANEOUSLY!!! Phew... need to catch my breath. And then I think there was someone who mentioned great HUB interactions (there is no chat, except party voice chat) so.. EMOTES IT IS LoL... and occasional inspects and random friends requests... really cracks me up!!!
Maybe we can get a Diablo 3 MMO article when Diablo 4 gets announced - would be awesome!
Pfuuu. That was fun. Unless it wasn't a joke, and then it's an insult to the website, the MMO gaming community and well... gamers in general, lol. Oh massive multiplayer online, you,...
Destiny is not a MMO but clueless investors and publishers think it is just that. And Bill might be right, if those people connect "MMO" and "profit" again it might lead to actual MMOs getting funding again. It might of course also leads to the revamping of real MMOs to be closer to Destiny which would suck.
But we seriously need more money invested in the genre and if clueless induhviduals invest more into actual MMOs it would be a good thing no matter what git them doing it. If they instead demand that all future MMOs should be that way we are boned.
You are right, it could go either way. But if we look at the scene post-WoW we learn that investors want clones.
Constantine, The Console Poster
"One of the most difficult tasks men can perform, however much others may despise it, is the invention of good games and it cannot be done by men out of touch with their instinctive selves." - Carl Jung
Some people talking about destiny 2, others saying the division was an mmo and others bleehh like that and im just sitting here remembering the good times with another 255 players, thats is massive, no this bullshit, instanced, coop likely with tons of loading! I dont understand, where are the massive games like that today? Mag managed to put 256 at the same time and was the best experience i had, of course theres planetside 2 but i dont like the theme of it. Lets wait some hit this jar of gold and make millions!
Ps: im playing Squad now and playerunknown battlegrounds but yet those are far way of mag
Eventhough it lacked in the story department, Destiny 1 was an amazing game! Especially if you had friends to play with! I did and we played the game non-stop for over 18 months straight! The gameplay was absolutely amazing, addictive and great fun!
It's one of the best and most polished shooters out there! Bungie are among the best.
As comparison, the shooter mechanics in The Division is a joke. (and I played this game for a couple months as well, but got fed up with the bugs and issues).
Eventhough it lacked in the story department, Destiny 1 was an amazing game! Especially if you had friends to play with! I did and we played the game non-stop for over 18 months straight! The gameplay was absolutely amazing, addictive and great fun!
It's one of the best and most polished shooters out there! Bungie are among the best.
As comparison, the shooter mechanics in The Division is a joke. (and I played this game for a couple months as well, but got fed up with the bugs and issues).
You dont even need friends!
I thought I used the destiny app or forums (launch), cant remember lol.. Lots of post for LFM and LFG raiding etc made alot of new psn friends.
I'm all for calling Destiny games MMOs as long as that stands for "Minimally" multiplayer online game.
Now we're on the same page.
Or if it stands for Mature. Every time I pick up an MMO and spend some time in it I start to feel like, "Huh! Wow! Maybe this is it! Maybe we've gotten past that point of... " and then it happens! Someone types into General Anal [Impale] which sets off the inevitable half hour worth of head-shaking. Yes, we understand, you could put Anal in front of nearly any skill and it's hilarious. I don't think I can put my finger on when it all started, but I definitely expected it would be short-lived. Nope! It's actually lasted longer than the majority of MMOs.
So if that means that I only need to hear from my friends, so be it At least then I can selectively filter the list of people who I associate with.
I've never actually heard of this, not in my current game fortunately. (no global chat is probably why)
Which game is that? Maybe no global is the solution, lol.
You all missed the point. Whether it's an MMO or not doesn't matter. What matters is that it will inevitably bring more development into persistent online worlds (MMO). But keep arguing over the meaning of the acronym. We haven't done that enough these last 15 years.
What type of development? That's the issue.
It's not the meaning of the acronym, it's the meaning of the gaming and environment that holds games true to the acronym.
So a group of developers who avoided "MMO" and PCs like a pissy park bench before are now good for the MMO genre on the sequel. Pardon me for scoffing. We'll see.
Why wouldn't they avoid the moniker. Just look at the pretentious backlash against associating the game with mmos.
It's good for PC mmo gamers who want more mmo in their other games and genres. It's good for gamers who love mmos and want to see more of that.
It's not good if all you want is EQ.
Calling WoW a fighting games or calling ESO a racing game would equally bring rage from false labeling if those games did that for marketing. People don't want it called a MMO because it's not a MMO.
Ha ha ha... Destiny is an MMO... HA HA HA! Hilarious! Best pre-April fools' article!
Why the serious comments, peepz?! I can only see this is a joke, because Bill owns a site called MMORPG.com and is supposedly a very knowledgeable person on the matter. And so are quite a few people who have played mmos and most game genres and know what MMO means without even googling it
Still laughing, though... 3 player "strikes" and 6 player "raids".. LMAO! Very large number of people. SIMULTANEOUSLY!!! Phew... need to catch my breath. And then I think there was someone who mentioned great HUB interactions (there is no chat, except party voice chat) so.. EMOTES IT IS LoL... and occasional inspects and random friends requests... really cracks me up!!!
Maybe we can get a Diablo 3 MMO article when Diablo 4 gets announced - would be awesome!
Pfuuu. That was fun. Unless it wasn't a joke, and then it's an insult to the website, the MMO gaming community and well... gamers in general, lol. Oh massive multiplayer online, you,...
Destiny is not a MMO but clueless investors and publishers think it is just that. And Bill might be right, if those people connect "MMO" and "profit" again it might lead to actual MMOs getting funding again. It might of course also leads to the revamping of real MMOs to be closer to Destiny which would suck.
But we seriously need more money invested in the genre and if clueless induhviduals invest more into actual MMOs it would be a good thing no matter what git them doing it. If they instead demand that all future MMOs should be that way we are boned.
You are right, it could go either way. But if we look at the scene post-WoW we learn that investors want clones.
This is a terrible idea, because most new advertised MMO, would really be more of these lobby Dynasty Warriors Online Diablo clones rather than real MMO. Let's be real here. Which cost less to make, a 3D Graphical Diablo clone or a MMo with open world exploration with hundreds of people playing together In the same area?
Hello, I've just registered. I'm the Boss of the biggest MMO-Site in Germany ( http://mein-mmo.de/), with over 3,5 million users a month.
Fun fact: Destiny is by far our most popular game. We see by our metrics that a lot of mmorpgs playes are visiting our Destiny articles recently, among other coming from WoW articles. In Germany everyone calls it a MMO.
Guys, I'm following your site for many years now! I love it.
reminder...the game is already god before it is even in our hands,yep that is a good idea to carry forward with. "persistent"Ok so let's say the IDEA of a persistent world is great,it is not and everyone is doing it now,no matter let's just say it is the most amazing thing since sliced cheese.
Until we actually see what the Destiny team does,HOW they implement the persistent idea,we cannot even remotely weigh in to say it is GOOD FOR GAMING.We pass judgment on the idea after we see what they do with the game design. Ask Angry Joe how he feels about D1?In his recent video he states that he thinks they are pissed at him and will likely not give him a preview copy for D2,well good for him,no sellout,we need less sellout advertising and more honest reviews.His PRE OPINION?He says he is mildly optimistic but skeptical after seeing D1,he needs to see what they do before jumping on board and that is a realistic stand to take.
Angry Joe is not someone I'd trust when it comes to opinions - he flops more than a politican during campaign season. No one called a game god, either. Wiz, you need to read the article again.
Yes. And you guys only praise things.
Please, avoid getting this road. I'm still with a bad taste in my mouth from your advertisement articles about how awesome Riders of Icarus is.
I don't know about that. At least theirs are labelled as being sponsored. Unfortunately people tend to believe that because someone is being angry they must be subjective. However, the reality is that someone like AJ makes his money by being angry. Same goes for Angry Grandpa, if he wasn't over the top then I suppose people wouldn't find it amusing. So, effectively, they're making money by acting angry or actively taking a stance on the negative side of the spectrum. So the basis for their relevance, really, only comes into play when there is some sort of highly-polarizing game like Destiny or Mass Effect or The Division. They cater to the ideals of the uneducated even though they are often well-educated, themselves, on the issues at hand. So they're really just pandering to the uneducated in order to get hits, which is where they earn their money.
In the end they aren't providing any sort of real, productive feedback on product design because their whole revenue stream is based on being angry, so they simply pick apart things to be angry about. Trust me, "Moderately Annoyed Joseph" is way less of a draw.
Oh! Also, I should mention that MMORPG is actually relatively well spread out as far as their reviews are concerned, if you were interested in actually using something objective. Actually, it says they grade lower than the average reviewer by nearly 1 point, and their average score is 73, soooooooo, I don't know if the whole "You just give praise" thing is fair.
It should have come to the PC (and consoleS) in the first place. Unfortunately, exclusives to one platform or even just two is no helpful to gaming at all. It fractures the gaming community and makes everyone distrustful of the game development studios.
Destiny is not a MMO but clueless investors and publishers think it is just that. And Bill might be right, if those people connect "MMO" and "profit" again it might lead to actual MMOs getting funding again. It might of course also leads to the revamping of real MMOs to be closer to Destiny which would suck.
But we seriously need more money invested in the genre and if clueless induhviduals invest more into actual MMOs it would be a good thing no matter what git them doing it. If they instead demand that all future MMOs should be that way we are boned.
Yeah, but it may backfire.
You may call MOBAS MMO expecting investor to apply money on MMO when they actually have people telling them riks of certain thing - which includes them be advised that this new mmorpg is not "like that game kids love and you got tons of money from". They can be clueless - but not because they don't know what are the chances of getting money from the things they put it on, but because they fucking don't care what it is called.
Mislabeling something is never beneficial. It only causes misunderstanding. You are not making it easier to people who care and people that don't care... Well, don't care.
Well, apparently this is no joke ... and it's quite a serious topic. There are people SO SMART lurking around these forums that it's hard to understand why we're lacking technological breakthroughs... might be because they're spending their life writing thousands of comments to show us how smart and belittling they are when in reality they are just... sad, puny humans. But enough of the off-topic.
@Loke666 and @Nyctelios you guys actually brought the most relevant point to the table, so here is how I put it:
@BillMurphy Bill, what did MMO mean to you 10-20 years back into your life? Was it something around the lines of a game where you could meet a lot of people and interract with them, explore vast worlds and have great adventures? For me, those are some of the things that the "massive" word implied at the time. It still does now, more then ever. With our current technology the next guys taking advantage of multi cores/new gpu generation/dx12/vulkan while creating a decent game will become the new masters of the mythical "MMO" space.
Now that you're advertising Destiny "as an MMO" and we assume that Destiny 2 will be a resounding success, can you see the consequences, Bill? More companies will try to adopt the same model for success, most likely. So instead of people trying to create massive games the will limit themselves to lobbied instances of up to.. I don't know, 12? players - *these are the new MMOs* ! Why risk more than something that it's proven to work?
So when I make a 3 man game coop and advertise it as an MMO because you can chat in lobbies with tens, hundreds of people, can you still go back and say with your heart at peace "I know many of you hate the idea of Destiny being considered an MMO. It is one." ?
Well everything that make's it an mmo is "up in the air". I'll have to wait and see. If it's just a massively lobby shooter, it won't register in my mind as an mmo. I'll consider this whole thing a trend once it proves itself more than a method to itemize f2p across a pc platform.
Mentioning this game along side the true mmorpg's in development right now is hopeful at this stage.
Hello, I've just registered. I'm the Boss of the biggest MMO-Site in Germany ( http://mein-mmo.de/), with over 3,5 million users a month.
Fun fact: Destiny is by far our most popular game. We see by our metrics that a lot of mmorpgs playes are visiting our Destiny articles recently, among other coming from WoW articles. In Germany everyone calls it a MMO.
Guys, I'm following your site for many years now! I love it.
Hmm, so the educational system in Germany has declined worse than here?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The user and all related content has been deleted.
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
Having played Destiny one and getting irritated in the direction Bungie took with storyline develpment and PvE, Destiny SHOULD NOT be called an mmo! You can agree to disagree but my reasoning is:
1- Some parts of the story for loot are like a Dungeon and resemble even FF 14's usage of taking players elsewhere and making a match but the biggest focal point for Destiny wasn't PvE, it was PvP!
2- You really didn't have a world where things persisted and it was worse than a giant instance; their desiring to constantly re-hash content and blend it in with old content creates a paradox of absurdity: hey I need to kill this guy for the current mission but he's mixed in with the mobs from the first story, wtf?
3- It doesn't lend itself to world exploring and instead tend to promote a "lobby community" of "hey lets get ready and do this weekly missions" and that's it. You have quests that mirror what you would do in an mmo setting as well but you almost try to avoid other players; in some cases you get more loot and treasure and, thus, the bigger paradox of getting more bang for your buck.
4- Most players I did an activity with that wasn't mission involved: 5. That's a pretty pathetic number and with much of its mechanics not making it friendlier to LFP or search players you're kind of stuck with a game that's more of a lobby shooter with chat.
MMMO's should really have a clear definition and should really be judged on how it promotes community teaming and player relationships versus how it works and is antagonistic to it. Again, most of their studies, tweaking and updates to player balancing have centered largely on PvP and they are commonly accused of ignoring PvE and, for that reason, why I can't consider Destiny an MMO. There are games that have centered solely on FPS in large scale and they aren't considered MMO's: MAG, Dust514, Resistance 2 and the beloved Counter Strike. We don't call them mmo's even when they are accompanied with a storeyline. How the Developer attempts to create relationships between other players is key and it's kind of lacking in Destiny, and that's being kind as I'd go further and say there really isn't a community in Destiny as you would see in MMO's in general.
Yes. Riders of Icarus is amazing as said by them. I'm wrong.
AJ never gives praise to anything he only bashes. That's why he has the Badass Seal of Approval for games whe enjoyed a lot.
But please, call me ignorant. Keep going.
First of all, I don't see a Riders of Icarus review here. I do see that there were sponsored articles, which are marked as such. That's not a review, that's someone paying someone to focus on the positives of their game and then that person OVERTLY telling you that they got paid to say those things. Then you coming back and saying that they told you it was awesome when it wasn't. I don't have a BA in English, but I'm fairly certain that's as close to the definition of ignorant as you can get.
I'm not saying that AJ doesn't give praise to things. HOWEVER, what I am saying is that he isn't as objective as you think he is. While we're on the subject of him giving praise, though, you should probably note that he's given out 5, count them 5, 10/10 and MMORPG has given zero. MMORPG has, actually, not even given out a score that would round UP to 10/10.
What I'm saying is that you're putting Angry Joe on a pedestal here and, in reality, the guy hasn't updated his own fucking website with a review since 2015, so please don't tell me how relevant he is. He's a funny guy and he makes some valid observations, but he's ultimately a comedian doing game reviews and that's about it. He's about as relevant as Conan doing Clueless Gamer. The point is, let's be honest, Angry Joe isn't an objective source. He doesn't have a metric-based rating scale, he makes his ratings primarily based on emotion, which is about as subjective as it comes.
Hello, I've just registered. I'm the Boss of the biggest MMO-Site in Germany ( http://mein-mmo.de/), with over 3,5 million users a month.
Fun fact: Destiny is by far our most popular game. We see by our metrics that a lot of mmorpgs playes are visiting our Destiny articles recently, among other coming from WoW articles. In Germany everyone calls it a MMO.
Guys, I'm following your site for many years now! I love it.
Hmm, so the educational system in Germany has declined worse than here?
Weird.
Real classy. There's other ways to get upvotes than by making rude comments and insulting new members. Dude, you live in Florida (according to your profile). You're in no place to be making remarks about poor education elsewhere.
We clearly understand the meaning of "massively multiplayer" here in Florida, poster claimed "everyone" in Germany called Destiny a MMO.
Has to be a logical reason for such confusion, perhaps as I suspect from so many it's more a matter of willful ignorance, debating the obvious just to be caustically contrarian?
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
What I'm saying is that you're putting Angry Joe on a pedestal here and, in reality, the guy hasn't updated his own fucking website with a review since 2015, so please don't tell me how relevant he is....
Something tells me that most of the vitriol directed towards AJ here at MMORPG.com though is based on his review of a certain MMO. I'm not putting him on a pedestal btw. I just go to his reviews to see someone who's opinion is not influenced by [sponsored] advertisements/articles on the games he reviews. In fact I don't think I even saw any add banners on his site for anything. It's mainly because he gets his revenue through his youtube viewership. It's also worth mentioning that he asks actual hard questions during his developer interviews. Of course all of this is just my opinion as well.
What I'm saying is that you're putting Angry Joe on a pedestal here and, in reality, the guy hasn't updated his own fucking website with a review since 2015, so please don't tell me how relevant he is....
Something tells me that most of the vitriol directed towards AJ here at MMORPG.com though is based on his review of a certain MMO. I'm not putting him on a pedestal btw. I just go to his reviews to see someone who's opinion is not influenced by [sponsored] advertisements/articles on the games he reviews. In fact I don't think I even saw any add banners on his site for anything. It's mainly because he gets his revenue through his youtube viewership. It's also worth mentioning that he asks actual hard questions during his developer interviews. Of course all of this is just my opinion as well.
Yeah, and that's really all I'm getting at here. Again, what you're saying only illustrates what I'm saying. You're telling me that he probably concentrates almost exclusively on his YouTube channel because that's where his revenue comes from. Makes sense. I'd probably do the same. However, to argue that he's "professional" when he can't take the time to post his reviews on a "real" website instead of just a forum, it should tell you what his priorities are. BTW, I get what you're saying wrt his website, but this is what it used to look like. It might just be my opinion, but I think that a forum is a lazy implementation of a news website. I mean, fuck, even forum websites generally have a homepage of some sort, lol.
I'm not sure what review you're talking about. TBH, I'm just trying to be objective here and say before we go around knighting Internet vagabonds as heroes, let's take a look at their motivation and be realistic about how we're assessing the value of their contribution.
Oh! On your last point, it could be that he asks difficult questions, but I'd be VERY surprised if he asked questions that weren't already discussed previously. If he was going around blind-siding developers, he'd have, effectively, zero interviews. It would be very bad for business, which is what he is, he's a brand. I will go as far as to make the assertion that there is some amount of disclosure about what questions he will be asking prior to any interview.
Comments
Well, I clicked on the wrong post to quote mate sorry!
I must refer to you a bit about language by George Carlin. He is talking about how Shell Shocked changed into PTSD and what are the side effects of this transition. One might argue the term mmmorpg is going through the same thing and the change doesn't necessarily means anything better.
Ok now you go again.
Self-note: Don't drive and start an argument with @Torval.
"I know many of you hate the idea of Destiny being considered an MMO. It is one. Even Bungie admits it without outright saying it by including us in all of their media invites. It may not be your cup of tea and we’d all like a larger open shared world and universe capable of supporting hundreds or thousands in one space. But this is where we are at this point in time as the genre struggles to evolve past the Warcraft paradigm."
Short answer: Destiny is not an MMO.
Long answer: if the entire basis of your argument is that bungie invites you to pressers therefore it must be an MMO I would suggest the people that run this site take the time to read up on logical fallacies. . . . . .also I though this site covered other games besides MMOs and has done so for quite some time. Has the site gone back to covering MMO's exclusively?
P.S. I know many people hate the Idea that 2+2=1. It is one.
EDIT: lastly, Having to settle for less than what was before is never a good thing. I'm talking about 3-6 player content being considered "massive" when we had games that had higher counts almost 2 decades ago. . .so what some might see as "evolving past Warcraft" I see as taking steps backwards in the genre.
But we seriously need more money invested in the genre and if clueless induhviduals invest more into actual MMOs it would be a good thing no matter what git them doing it. If they instead demand that all future MMOs should be that way we are boned.
The gameplay was absolutely amazing, addictive and great fun!
It's one of the best and most polished shooters out there! Bungie are among the best.
As comparison, the shooter mechanics in The Division is a joke. (and I played this game for a couple months as well, but got fed up with the bugs and issues).
I thought I used the destiny app or forums (launch), cant remember lol.. Lots of post for LFM and LFG raiding etc made alot of new psn friends.
Which game is that? Maybe no global is the solution, lol.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Philosophy of MMO Game Design
This is a terrible idea, because most new advertised MMO, would really be more of these lobby Dynasty Warriors Online Diablo clones rather than real MMO. Let's be real here. Which cost less to make, a 3D Graphical Diablo clone or a MMo with open world exploration with hundreds of people playing together In the same area?
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
http://mein-mmo.de/), with over 3,5 million users a month.
Fun fact: Destiny is by far our most popular game. We see by our metrics that a lot of mmorpgs playes are visiting our Destiny articles recently, among other coming from WoW articles. In Germany everyone calls it a MMO.
Guys, I'm following your site for many years now! I love it.
I don't know about that. At least theirs are labelled as being sponsored. Unfortunately people tend to believe that because someone is being angry they must be subjective. However, the reality is that someone like AJ makes his money by being angry. Same goes for Angry Grandpa, if he wasn't over the top then I suppose people wouldn't find it amusing. So, effectively, they're making money by acting angry or actively taking a stance on the negative side of the spectrum. So the basis for their relevance, really, only comes into play when there is some sort of highly-polarizing game like Destiny or Mass Effect or The Division. They cater to the ideals of the uneducated even though they are often well-educated, themselves, on the issues at hand. So they're really just pandering to the uneducated in order to get hits, which is where they earn their money.
In the end they aren't providing any sort of real, productive feedback on product design because their whole revenue stream is based on being angry, so they simply pick apart things to be angry about. Trust me, "Moderately Annoyed Joseph" is way less of a draw.
Oh! Also, I should mention that MMORPG is actually relatively well spread out as far as their reviews are concerned, if you were interested in actually using something objective. Actually, it says they grade lower than the average reviewer by nearly 1 point, and their average score is 73, soooooooo, I don't know if the whole "You just give praise" thing is fair.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Let's party like it is 1863!
@Loke666 and @Nyctelios you guys actually brought the most relevant point to the table, so here is how I put it:
@BillMurphy Bill, what did MMO mean to you 10-20 years back into your life? Was it something around the lines of a game where you could meet a lot of people and interract with them, explore vast worlds and have great adventures? For me, those are some of the things that the "massive" word implied at the time. It still does now, more then ever. With our current technology the next guys taking advantage of multi cores/new gpu generation/dx12/vulkan while creating a decent game will become the new masters of the mythical "MMO" space.
Now that you're advertising Destiny "as an MMO" and we assume that Destiny 2 will be a resounding success, can you see the consequences, Bill? More companies will try to adopt the same model for success, most likely. So instead of people trying to create massive games the will limit themselves to lobbied instances of up to.. I don't know, 12? players - *these are the new MMOs* ! Why risk more than something that it's proven to work?
So when I make a 3 man game coop and advertise it as an MMO because you can chat in lobbies with tens, hundreds of people, can you still go back and say with your heart at peace "I know many of you hate the idea of Destiny being considered an MMO. It is one." ?
You stay sassy!
Weird.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
1- Some parts of the story for loot are like a Dungeon and resemble even FF 14's usage of taking players elsewhere and making a match but the biggest focal point for Destiny wasn't PvE, it was PvP!
2- You really didn't have a world where things persisted and it was worse than a giant instance; their desiring to constantly re-hash content and blend it in with old content creates a paradox of absurdity: hey I need to kill this guy for the current mission but he's mixed in with the mobs from the first story, wtf?
3- It doesn't lend itself to world exploring and instead tend to promote a "lobby community" of "hey lets get ready and do this weekly missions" and that's it. You have quests that mirror what you would do in an mmo setting as well but you almost try to avoid other players; in some cases you get more loot and treasure and, thus, the bigger paradox of getting more bang for your buck.
4- Most players I did an activity with that wasn't mission involved: 5. That's a pretty pathetic number and with much of its mechanics not making it friendlier to LFP or search players you're kind of stuck with a game that's more of a lobby shooter with chat.
MMMO's should really have a clear definition and should really be judged on how it promotes community teaming and player relationships versus how it works and is antagonistic to it. Again, most of their studies, tweaking and updates to player balancing have centered largely on PvP and they are commonly accused of ignoring PvE and, for that reason, why I can't consider Destiny an MMO. There are games that have centered solely on FPS in large scale and they aren't considered MMO's: MAG, Dust514, Resistance 2 and the beloved Counter Strike. We don't call them mmo's even when they are accompanied with a storeyline. How the Developer attempts to create relationships between other players is key and it's kind of lacking in Destiny, and that's being kind as I'd go further and say there really isn't a community in Destiny as you would see in MMO's in general.
First of all, I don't see a Riders of Icarus review here. I do see that there were sponsored articles, which are marked as such. That's not a review, that's someone paying someone to focus on the positives of their game and then that person OVERTLY telling you that they got paid to say those things. Then you coming back and saying that they told you it was awesome when it wasn't. I don't have a BA in English, but I'm fairly certain that's as close to the definition of ignorant as you can get.
I'm not saying that AJ doesn't give praise to things. HOWEVER, what I am saying is that he isn't as objective as you think he is. While we're on the subject of him giving praise, though, you should probably note that he's given out 5, count them 5, 10/10 and MMORPG has given zero. MMORPG has, actually, not even given out a score that would round UP to 10/10.
What I'm saying is that you're putting Angry Joe on a pedestal here and, in reality, the guy hasn't updated his own fucking website with a review since 2015, so please don't tell me how relevant he is. He's a funny guy and he makes some valid observations, but he's ultimately a comedian doing game reviews and that's about it. He's about as relevant as Conan doing Clueless Gamer. The point is, let's be honest, Angry Joe isn't an objective source. He doesn't have a metric-based rating scale, he makes his ratings primarily based on emotion, which is about as subjective as it comes.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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Has to be a logical reason for such confusion, perhaps as I suspect from so many it's more a matter of willful ignorance, debating the obvious just to be caustically contrarian?
(case in point?)
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
http://angryjoeshow.com/ajsa/
http://angryjoeshow.com/ajsa/home/?page=3
http://angryjoeshow.com/ajsa/home/?page=6
Of course I suspect more people just go straight to his youtube channel for reviews. I pretty much never go to his website.
https://www.youtube.com/user/AngryJoeShow
Something tells me that most of the vitriol directed towards AJ here at MMORPG.com though is based on his review of a certain MMO. I'm not putting him on a pedestal btw. I just go to his reviews to see someone who's opinion is not influenced by [sponsored] advertisements/articles on the games he reviews. In fact I don't think I even saw any add banners on his site for anything. It's mainly because he gets his revenue through his youtube viewership. It's also worth mentioning that he asks actual hard questions during his developer interviews. Of course all of this is just my opinion as well.
"If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor
Yeah, and that's really all I'm getting at here. Again, what you're saying only illustrates what I'm saying. You're telling me that he probably concentrates almost exclusively on his YouTube channel because that's where his revenue comes from. Makes sense. I'd probably do the same. However, to argue that he's "professional" when he can't take the time to post his reviews on a "real" website instead of just a forum, it should tell you what his priorities are. BTW, I get what you're saying wrt his website, but this is what it used to look like. It might just be my opinion, but I think that a forum is a lazy implementation of a news website. I mean, fuck, even forum websites generally have a homepage of some sort, lol.
I'm not sure what review you're talking about. TBH, I'm just trying to be objective here and say before we go around knighting Internet vagabonds as heroes, let's take a look at their motivation and be realistic about how we're assessing the value of their contribution.
Oh! On your last point, it could be that he asks difficult questions, but I'd be VERY surprised if he asked questions that weren't already discussed previously. If he was going around blind-siding developers, he'd have, effectively, zero interviews. It would be very bad for business, which is what he is, he's a brand. I will go as far as to make the assertion that there is some amount of disclosure about what questions he will be asking prior to any interview.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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