Final Fantasy XIV - Stormblood’s Missed Opportunity - MMORPG.com

SBFord · March 2017

Final Fantasy XIV - Stormblood’s Missed Opportunity - MMORPG.com

I had an amazing time at Final Fantasy FanFest 2017 in Frankfurt, Germany. I was able to walk the floor early and see all the festivities planned for the revelers before the show opened to the general public. From the hundreds of computers set up for the duty roulettes and the PvP tournament to the giant Magitech Armor Square Enix really knows how to put on a show.

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t7a69 · March 2017

Aori is right ninja was never suppose to be a tank. And even then ninja got phased out by level 75 to warrior/ninja. With FFXIV model they are going to have a hard time designing a new type of tank, healer on the other hand they could do some sort of melee dps/healer type and totem style (think monk healer from wow). I don't think a pet tank will work in this game, because the pet AI is very very dumb. Just ask any smn and sch on this. Even adding more tank jobs, I don't believe it will bring any new tanks into the fold because the level skill the player would have to be would be very high with a pet tanking style. Now a totem or avoidance type tank they could do, but they need to fix parry or remove it all together and design something new to replace it. I do agree that they could up the party size to 5, but yea that is a huge undertaking. I think Yoshi P is right given their current model that adding a tank and healer job won't really change much. When Heavensward launch tanks and healers at dps ques since there was sooo many wanting to try the jobs, but after a couple of weeks it went back to normal. DPS ques are going to be hell at launch for Stormblood, because everybody is going to want and try the two new jobs. But we got palace of the dead for that now. Ultimately I don' feel adding new tank and healer jobs will make people want to play them. But it would be nice for those that do play those roles to have more options. So going for the moon is the real only way to help with the queue times for dps, if that is something the community wants.

Eothas · March 2017

Honestly, as much as I wanted a new healer (perhaps Dancer). I think SE/Yoshi P made the right decision. It's really hard to balance the tanks and healers that we have right now, how could they add another one? Would be a nightmare to balance them. I think they need more time.

Also most people tends to forget that the healers/tanks we currently have will get new skills/slightly reworks in SB, it's not like they will remain the same in Stormblood. Most likely 5 skills/traits for each tank/healer, so 30 new skills total, that's a lot. Pretty much EVERYONE that currently mains healer/tanks will level up them first after seeing their new skills in may/patch notes. Because of that, DPS queues won't be that bad.

As a healer main, I'll level my healers first and only after that I may level Red Mage or Samurai.

JudgeUK · March 2017

Robert, I have to completely disagree with this.
DPS classes are and always will be the most popular roles to play in mmo's - so introducing another one is somehow the wrong thing to do?
The last expansion saw healer and tank classes introduced, with the Astro even having two 'stance' options for increased flexibility.
Whilst part of this game is group/raid focused, there is a heck of a lot of solo play., and repeated for those daily quests. Switching to dps for these is great.

Whilst talking about dps v tank v healer classes, I think you are missing the point. People generally like playing the role first, then look at options within that role.
As someone who plays healers in mmos, if a game comes along that doesn't have a healer I don't then look at other roles - I look at other games.

Another difference here is the way your character can play any class in FFXIV. There's no race specific stats or even race exclusive roles in this game, you simply pick the weapon and off you go, and the cross skills mean you'll be picking up known abilities with any new class. There's nothing stopping tank or healer players simply picking up a samurai weapon and having a wander round with it.

On the whole, I think the article takes a no-win approach with the expansion classes. If they had released a new healer + tank then I'd probably be reading an article saying they've done it wrong as they're catering to the lesser played roles and ignoring a larger percentage of the player base.

As it is, the article doesn't come across very well. It states role percentages - then ignores the fact the expansion is introducing classes catering to the largest. It tends to portray classes as being character independent, which ignores one of the main features of this game. And as I've said previously, it surprisingly and I have to say somewhat naively does not take into account that people tend to choose role first, class second.

Sure I'll have a look at a new dps class, but only for curiosity's sake.

As for any new healer/tank class? Well here's the issue with those - Balance.
Boost the Astro - and healer's move to it, same for any new Tank class. What you have done then is not increased the classes - but removed others from being played.

Finally, as a previous poster has pointed out - existing classes are getting a re-work. Let's see how these play out with any new skills before we publish a fault finding article.

Yaevindusk · March 2017

Have to disagree as a whole. It would be a disservice to the current tanks to introduce a new one. Perhaps not the players, but the concepts of the actual jobs and those that main them (and will likely continue to do so, as per their data). To put all your effort into making a unique tank and healer when the others aren't balanced as is and need significant work would be a disaster. The correct thing to do would be to make 2 DPS, and try focus the time you would have spent on a new Tank and Healer on updating the old ones so that they remain relevant and able to compare to a new tank in the next expansion after Stormblood.

They are already making new UIs for each job, as well as taking away old and unused skills (or combining them), as well as moving a few things around and implementing new. It's the perfect time to go a bit further with balancing and the way of playing each tank job rather than keeping it the same and just focusing on a single class while leaving three others in the pasture as a whole.

tirwen · March 2017

My friend normally tanks, but he's given up on tanking in FFXIV except in dire circumstances. Why? Because the tank is expected to know all the fights. And, honestly, the number of mechanics for single bosses is crazy (I'm looking at you Alexander).

The other reason why it's an issue that they introduced just dps classes is simple. Everyone, even the tank and healers, is going to want to play one, leaving no one to tank and heal.

JudgeUK · March 2017

Torval said:

I didn't play for very long, but I got the impression that the problem is more in content design, party size, and role distribution ratios more than the ability to spec tank or heals.

Well let's face it:
If a game had 5 x healing classes, 5 x tank class, 3 x dps classes - you'd still see more dps in the game.

Yaevindusk · March 2017

tirwen said:

My friend normally tanks, but he's given up on tanking in FFXIV except in dire circumstances. Why? Because the tank is expected to know all the fights. And, honestly, the number of mechanics for single bosses is crazy (I'm looking at you Alexander).

The other reason why it's an issue that they introduced just dps classes is simple. Everyone, even the tank and healers, is going to want to play one, leaving no one to tank and heal.

I believe they're also increasing the "Adventurer in Need" reward. The last time they did so it was about times seven. So we could likely see the same increase in this situation.

That said, the tank in FFXIV is much more a leader than in most other games due to the way everything is set up. You don't outlevel or outgear instances much in FFXIV (save for patched content that has no Ilvl sync), so you always have to be in your prime. This usually means DPS won't pull for you or do crazy stuff, as well. But you're still expected to know virtually everything about a dungeon or encounter so that you don't cause a wipe.

Kajidourden · March 2017

Torval said:

I didn't play for very long, but I got the impression that the problem is more in content design, party size, and role distribution ratios more than the ability to spec tank or heals.

Nail, meet head of hammer.

acidblood · March 2017

I can't say I agree, as it's not necessarily the play style that people don't like about tanking / healing (and IMO FFXIV has some of the most fun to play, and overall stronger than the DPS classes*, tanks and healers in any MMORPG), it's the responsibility inherent in playing those roles; i.e. leading the party, keeping everyone alive, and making up for others mistakes.

Granted I'm not sure going with two DPS classes was a great idea either (no doubt a few tanks / healers will make the switch), however I still think it was the right decision under the circumstances. Namely, that Dark Knight and Astro are still too fundamentally similar to Paladin and White Mage, especially compared to how different Warrior and Scholar are... and then you have issues like the ironically named 'the balance', which (after a contentious buff) makes Astro's the no-brainer choice over a White Mage unless you need that little bit of extra healing at the expense of significant DPS (and in 99% of fights, you don't). So yeah, until they can make each of the current tanks and healers distinct, and balanced, I don't think they should start introducing new ones. Blue Mage tank is still on my wishlist though.

Overall, I’m just hoping to see some good changes out of the combat revamp going into Stroomblood (though hopefully not too much homogenisation), as while I am looking forward to trying out both Samurai and Red Mage, I enjoy playing both Paladin and White Mage in group content, and I'd like to be able to continue doing that without feeling forced to.

PS. As for the time to kill issue, yeah, it was a bit crazy going into HW with less than i130 gear (even my Black Mage needed to rest between fights), so hopefully they do lower it a bit, at least for the early levels. That said, one of the great things about FFXIV is that you can play all classes on a single character, so if your PLD is too slow, then level a DPS class for the open world content and just play PLD in dungeons / groups... it will be slower getting to 60 overall, but once you do you'll have two playstyle options instead of being stuck with just the one. Oh, and there are also Chocobos, which can significantly add to your solo damage output, and even heal you a bit

* Tanks and healers in FFXIV generally have low DPS compared to the DPS classes (though healers can do some crazy AoE at times, and warriors are just OP), but their survivability is off the charts, making them easily the strongest overall solo classes in the game.

Ghavrigg · March 2017

It's good to know you went prepared with a question that he answered a while back. The time to kill question he said was related to all the feedback they had gotten in ARR about people wanting the overworld to feel dangerous, and just like most of the feedback he gets from players, he will implement what they want in some manner, and then people complain that it's annoying or too hard, so he said they're planning to tone it down again in SB to some degree.

I guess there are other ways to make the world feel dangerous than an increase to mob health, and I guess we'll see if they strike a better balance soon enough.

I do agree with the article. Though I don't necessarily think the two added dps are gonna be as huge of an issue as people seem to think. I'm sure they'll dedicate their resources towards a new tank and healer come the next expansion. Unless they do go for a COMPLETE combat revamp from the ground up, like for adding those 5 player parties. Maybe we'll see a Support role added, or some shit. But I doubt we'll be getting those kinds of changes.

Warlyx · March 2017

putting sam or rdm on other than dps was going to be a huge mistake , HOWEVER i think FFXIV needs to start working on dual roles , a sam could tank if given a defensive stance that changed dps cds into defensive cds , added mit , is a balance nightmare? HELL YEAH , but u make every1 happy that way.

cheyane · March 2017

Yaevindusk said:

tirwen said:

My friend normally tanks, but he's given up on tanking in FFXIV except in dire circumstances. Why? Because the tank is expected to know all the fights. And, honestly, the number of mechanics for single bosses is crazy (I'm looking at you Alexander).

The other reason why it's an issue that they introduced just dps classes is simple. Everyone, even the tank and healers, is going to want to play one, leaving no one to tank and heal.

I believe they're also increasing the "Adventurer in Need" reward. The last time they did so it was about times seven. So we could likely see the same increase in this situation.

That said, the tank in FFXIV is much more a leader than in most other games due to the way everything is set up. You don't outlevel or outgear instances much in FFXIV (save for patched content that has no Ilvl sync), so you always have to be in your prime. This usually means DPS won't pull for you or do crazy stuff, as well. But you're still expected to know virtually everything about a dungeon or encounter so that you don't cause a wipe.

Tanking is terrible . I usually play a healer and I tag along and I feel bad for the tank. Anything goes wrong in a group where the tank is new and does not know the dungeon people will scold and gripe . I hate DPS because they are lazy and only know how to complain. Any DPS can take over and tell people what to do and where to go....no they just put down the tank and leave. I always feel so sorry for the tank.

I am horrible simply because I'm very bad with directions and I type too slow so I cannot heal and give instructions. I have to pay full attention to healing to be any good. I don't however yell or admonish the poor tank especially if they are trying.

Increasing the award for adventurer in need is not really going to make more tanks sign up because it does not solve the underlying problems of tanking and the unfair expectations.

Asch126 · March 2017

Avoidance tank? You're playing a lot of Tera, aren't you?

Rich84 · March 2017

I'm pretty sure Yoshi P said that even after the introduction of DRK and AST the number of Healers and Tanks did not increase, existing tanks and heals may have changed to DRK or AST but there was not an overall increase in the number of people playing those roles.

Majority of players don't want the extra challenge/responsibility of being the tank or healer.

sausagemix · March 2017

Its unfortunate but people don't like playing healers/tanks as much as dps. The lack of glory of getting the final blow/uber damage along with the fact that heals and tanking are the foundation of battle flow. In a game where basically the tank grabs aggro, holds it while the rest of the party stabs/burns the boss in the ass for 10-15+ minutes while the healer keeps the tank alive (with and additional sizeable party damage seen as "avoidable") people don't wan't the pressure or responsibility but they do want the credit. Its one of the reasons why I left the game. Ultimate/end game battles that just repeat the same basic setup of battle flow with no dynamic AI just bores the crap out of me now.

JudgeUK · March 2017

Rich84 said:

I'm pretty sure Yoshi P said that even after the introduction of DRK and AST the number of Healers and Tanks did not increase, existing tanks and heals may have changed to DRK or AST but there was not an overall increase in the number of people playing those roles.

Majority of players don't want the extra challenge/responsibility of being the tank or healer.

And this underlines what I've said before: that people's decision making is role first, class second.
I leveled the Astro (great story by the way) and play this at end level along with whm/sch - because I like healing. A new Tank & dps class didn't result in a switch. Why take myself away from my favorite role?

Tanks/Healers tend to be played by a certain mindset of players. Ones not interested in damage meters (heaven forbid we get those here). People who are ok with accepting the added challenge of those roles - particularly the Tank.

Consequently you'll never see a real change in these numbers when new Tank/Healer classes come out. People may switch within the role, but you'll never see the likes of a mass migration of dps players to Tanks for example, no matter how many they introduce.

Warlyx · March 2017

tanking is fun too , so is healing , however yeah tankin is a bit stressfull , more when u are new to that dungeon ,dps , heal or tank doesnt mind.... but why ppl are afraid of saying

"hello, first time here! any advice is welcome!"

and go ahead , no1 will say a word until u really need it, hard pull or boss when u get some basics , when boss does X u move it to A , when the grounds is electrified blablbla...

if u make a mistake , no1 cant blame u , because they know already u didnt KNOW , the issue arise when the dont know that u are new, if u are doing it 1 time and u fail at X , the blame is on them for not explaining it

DPS are usually more than happy to get a dungeon , and dont mind explaining strats .

rotten apples are in everygame? true. But in FFXIV thats the exception and not the rule.

JudgeUK · March 2017

Torval said:

JudgeUK said:

Torval said:

I didn't play for very long, but I got the impression that the problem is more in content design, party size, and role distribution ratios more than the ability to spec tank or heals.

Well let's face it:
If a game had 5 x healing classes, 5 x tank class, 3 x dps classes - you'd still see more dps in the game.

The problem I'm talking about is the ratio required for group content not actual numbers of players. Say a group is 4 people, then that means that 25% of all players need to be tanks, 25% healers, and 50% dps. If you fail at any of those ratios then queue times get long or don't happen, depending on the content popularity.

If a game has groups of 6 then only about 17% need to be healers or tanks and you can have nearly 70% of your players be DPS.

Offering a new healer or tank could sway the ratio for a little bit, but long term those numbers will fall back into roughly the same ratio.

That's why it's much more of a content and mechanics design problem. It's extremely difficult to make players perform roles in classes they're not interested in or comfortable with. It's much easier to design content according to the role ratios of your playerbase.

Agree
Aion had a pretty reasonable set up with their groups. The group size was 6, with the ideal setup being tank, healer, support (Chanter for example) and dps.
But it wasn't a fixed format and you could go in with any combination you wanted really. Obviously some combos made it tougher than others, but it was up to the players to decide and not the system.

Xatsh · March 2017

One issue with tanks in FFXIV is the community mentality.

As a tank you are expected to know the whole run ahead of time. You are expected to know how many mobs to pull at all times. You are expected to both do high dps and have high damage mitigation. You are expected to position the bosses correctly.

Combine that with the fact no one talks in dungeons.... unless they are tearing someone apart for not knowing the run.... which if you are a tank not knowing what to do....you will either A cause a wipe or B make the dungeon take longer then it should and piss off the dps who want to rush through it. A lose lose situation if you are new to a dungeon or raid.

Compared to healers or dps where they simply follow and kill what the tank pulls while dodging the circles.

Playing all the classes I will say Tanks have the most stress when new, followed by healers (Because they have to cover for others mistakes), dps well they just dodge and do their max dps combo over and over and over they have it easy.

In high end raids... I would say healers have it worse though... because they have to focus on DPS, healing, and covering for screw ups all at the same time.

It is the way the game is designed that causes this problem no way to fix it. Why I played mainly with my guild on everything and avoided the duty finder at all cost.

As for stormblood. I am not ok with rdm being pure dps at all but with ffxiv it was expected since the game has to fit strict dps/tank/healer roles (Another major flaw in my eyes but obvious its not changing). RDM is suppose to the jack of all trades master of none, aka have melee, casting dps, and healing, ffxiv sorta bent the class to fit thier strict class design.

Sam is a dps class in my mind so I am ok with that.

Rukushin · March 2017

Well as a full-time PLD tank I can see how everyone is saying that the role of Tank is not really fair, but I just tend to deal with it and watch videos on it. I usually run dungeons with friends the first time so I don't deal with the harsh community telling me, "WHY DON'T YOU KNOW THIS DUNGEON? REALLY?!!!".

Then again I haven't ever faced that issue because I'm usually running the dungeon on Day 1 patch day so everyone is still learning the fight so there is no room to really yell at someone if it's your first time too.

Also, not to toot my own horn, but I guess I've been playing MMOs long enough and tanking long enough that I've developed the adequate player-skill. Once you've tanked in one MMO you can pretty much bring your skills over to the next with no issue. You already understand the basics of taunt mobs, don't face bosses at the raid, and try to cycle through cooldowns regularly to keep up high mitigation.

With that being said though, I think they also should have come out with an avoidance tank. I would have loved to play that. Instead I am more interested in RDM now so I will be leaving the tanking scene because I'm just not interested in my PLD and haven't been in quite some time.

The PLD has been screwed over by the OP Warrior for so long that I just gave up. Barely anyone wants to take a PLD to Alexander and I have to beg and plead for groups not to just rather sit in queue a tad longer in hopes of a DRK or WAR. It really has been so frustrating that I leveled a WAR to 60, but it wasn't my playstyle so I ended up giving up tanking for a small bit and healed instead because I used to be an avid healer in MMOs before taking up the tanking mantle. Got a WHM and SCH to 60, but still didn't feel like it was me. I ended up gonig back to PLD cause FC members needed a tank so I obliged to help them through queues, but was never truly excited to play my class.

After all that I actually have been MIA from the game entirely. I just don't know if I will even get Stormblood because...and I hate to say this...I feel like it's time to hop to the next big thing MMO. I'm yearning for something completely different. I'm tired of the "same ol' thing" MMO with tab target combat and linear story line with the gear treadmill progression. I was actually excited when I heard a combat revamp, but sadly found that it's not as much of a revamp as I was looking for. I wanted a complete ground up rework.

If I do come back to FFXIV....my sub is still going so technically I'm still supporting the game, but I will no longer tank full-time...I will be going RDM and tank only if friends really desperately need me to.

McReaper · March 2017

The games director Yoshi-P already answered this question. It is to even up the ranged and melee classes. Which is inline with his attempt to bring ff14 to esports and make feast a bigger deal. This "journalist" should probably consider paying attention at the fanfest or atleast doing a little research before writing an article that has already been clearly answered

Grakulen · March 2017

Asch126 said:

Avoidance tank? You're playing a lot of Tera, aren't you?

No.

Grakulen · March 2017

Rich84 said:

I'm pretty sure Yoshi P said that even after the introduction of DRK and AST the number of Healers and Tanks did not increase, existing tanks and heals may have changed to DRK or AST but there was not an overall increase in the number of people playing those roles.

Majority of players don't want the extra challenge/responsibility of being the tank or healer.

I clearly said that in the article.

Grakulen · March 2017

McReaper said:

The games director Yoshi-P already answered this question. It is to even up the ranged and melee classes. Which is inline with his attempt to bring ff14 to esports and make feast a bigger deal. This "journalist" should probably consider paying attention at the fanfest or atleast doing a little research before writing an article that has already been clearly answered

I was at fan fest. I asked the question. The answer was very general. "Readers" should work on their reading comprehension before they make wild accusations.

JudgeUK · March 2017

Grakulen said:

McReaper said:

The games director Yoshi-P already answered this question. It is to even up the ranged and melee classes. Which is inline with his attempt to bring ff14 to esports and make feast a bigger deal. This "journalist" should probably consider paying attention at the fanfest or atleast doing a little research before writing an article that has already been clearly answered

I was at fan fest. I asked the question. The answer was very general. "Readers" should work on their reading comprehension before they make wild accusations.

Well whatever happened to you at fanfest sure tainted your views to the negative for this game. My comprehension skills gave me a no-win feeling to the article, a determination to write something dedicated more to cause upset and response rather than an objective view.
FFXIV is one of the standards of the mmo genre. It doesn't pretend to be anything other than a traditional group/raid progression game, with quite a few other activities added in.
Yet here you are, sniping away at whatever they do, purely it appears for sensational journalism rather than any accurate understanding of the playing class demographic in these types of games.

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