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Chronciles of Elyria - Not Pay to Win

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  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    ...while bogs (toilets) and bog paper were so commonplace that they have to be the most likely point of origin.

    Complete and utter conjecture, that's all it is. No more likely than my proposal despite what you might want.

    You're simply attaching an assumption to a piece of evidence and making the narrative support it while claiming it is more likely because of your "feelings".

    Just because toilets were more common than gardens is hardly enough evidence to conclude that it must therefore be the origin. That's a ludicrous basis for an argument.

    Whatever, I'm done discussing this with you.
    You just don't get it. I have heard the expression 'bog standard' far more often than I have heard references to peat bogs or peat moss and I have heard toilets referred to as bogs many times more.

    You alone are the one with the ludicrous line about gardens. It is not the number of toilets or the number of gardens that is relevant. What is relevant was the contemporary (the 1960's) usage of the term 'bog paper' as compared to the frequency of references to 'peat bog' in working class Australia and working class England. On that count ypur speculation fails miserably. Which is probably why, as far as I can see, no one else has ever come up with your theory before, despite fanciful theories about meccano sets, Lou Grade and other suggestions.
  • CostaniusCostanius Member UncommonPosts: 229
    edited March 2017
    What will a king or duke title get You in Cronicles of Elyria? What will You "win" if You play that position as it is intended by the game design? As a "king" You won't just sit on Your throne doing nothing and feeling great about yourself!

    In my opinion it will be
    -pay to work a lot and build a community of players. Like a CEO of a multinational company!
    -pay to invest a lot of time accomodating guilds and players into a social ingame system & organisation (kingdom)
    -pay to manage and deal with all kinds of player problems, conflicts, complaints and bullsh*t
    -pay to effectively do a community building and community managing job, but just ingame within the game mechanics
    -pay to have a second job next to Your real life and other hobbys

    If You don't do this or don't have the skills to deal with guilds and players and organise a pleasant gaming experience FOR THEM they will either leave Your kingdom/duchy etc and move on or overthrow You out of Your position sooner or later! All titles are not bound to Your account but can be lost also.
    So what do You get being a king? A lot of work, a lot less spare time and a lot of potential problems with hundreds or even thousands of players.

    So is it pay-to-win? In my opinion it's just outsourcing of community building to a few players who think they'll be able to do such a job and are even willing to pay for trying it!
    And failing and loosing a kingdom or any other title due to mismanagement with all its conflict and drama is intended to happen and part of the game design!
    When the game is released the main source of income will be the subscriptions-like replacements & renewals of souls/sparks of life.
    So pay-to-win? No!
    Pay to get a head start, pay to get some exclusive info and pay-to-try to be a CEO and successful community manager: Yes!

    -----------------------------------
    Life is too short to play bad games.

  • DakeruDakeru Member EpicPosts: 3,779
    Sorry but you guys are trying way too hard to defend this.

    Back in the days your list would have been something like this:
    Buying weapons from the cash shop is not pay to win because..

    -people will expect you to perform well in guild vs guild matches
    -you will have to fight real hard
    -you will have to keep fighting and winning not to disappoint anyone


    Wether it's a weapon to conquer land or buying land and titles immediately - it is pay to win.

    CoE is the very incarnation of pay to win and it's really a shame that people are trying to deflect this by bringing up some empty promises of "completely new and challenging game mechanics that can't be compared to anything you have ever seen before!"
    Harbinger of Fools
  • NegativeJoeNegativeJoe Member UncommonPosts: 212
    Full disclaimer i did not read this entire thread.  I just started researching this game today, and read their forums. 

    I have NEVER seen a more P2W mode than this. 

    The OP's arguemint is you can lose it. 

    THis game is basically like lining people up at a starting line, telling them where they ahe to go, then selling one guy a car, another a jet, another a bike, and hoping 1,000,000 peole in bare feet will walk to fill the server!

    Then if you really pay up, we will just heliport you to the finish line before the starting gun goes off. 

    Zero chance of a game like this succeeding. None, you have to engage the average player.

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,798
    edited March 2017
    Full disclaimer i did not read this entire thread.  I just started researching this game today, and read their forums. 

    I have NEVER seen a more P2W mode than this. 

    The OP's arguemint is you can lose it. 

    THis game is basically like lining people up at a starting line, telling them where they ahe to go, then selling one guy a car, another a jet, another a bike, and hoping 1,000,000 peole in bare feet will walk to fill the server!

    Then if you really pay up, we will just heliport you to the finish line before the starting gun goes off. 

    Zero chance of a game like this succeeding. None, you have to engage the average player.
    Actually, this game is nothing like lining people up at a starting line, etc., because this game isn't a race for every player to become King.
    No, only a race for those who pay for it. ;)

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • SerMedievalSerMedieval Member UncommonPosts: 99
    edited March 2017
    Kyleran said:
    Full disclaimer i did not read this entire thread.  I just started researching this game today, and read their forums. 

    I have NEVER seen a more P2W mode than this. 

    The OP's arguemint is you can lose it. 

    THis game is basically like lining people up at a starting line, telling them where they ahe to go, then selling one guy a car, another a jet, another a bike, and hoping 1,000,000 peole in bare feet will walk to fill the server!

    Then if you really pay up, we will just heliport you to the finish line before the starting gun goes off. 

    Zero chance of a game like this succeeding. None, you have to engage the average player.
    Actually, this game is nothing like lining people up at a starting line, etc., because this game isn't a race for every player to become King.
    No, only a race for those who pay for it. ;)
    Can't see a way to argue with that. It's true.
  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited March 2017
    Kyleran said:
    Dakeru said:

    When everything is P2W, nothing is P2W

    The term means nothing now, it's been used so much for everything that it holds no value any more.

    The definition here is clear: Pay 10.000$ to own land and become King instantly.

    Your post is just some general vague statement and holds no value.
    Do kings "win?" What exactly do they win? Is every player meant to be a king?
    I get your perspective here.  However, whether kings win or not (and what that means) isn't the crux of the issue, pursuant to the definition Xodic gave (which I wholeheartedly think is the best and most objective way to define the term "P2W," which is terribly specific to one side of the coin).

    Games are made as hobbies.  Ways to spend time.  Paying to skip the point of the game- spending time having fun- or paying specifically to endow your avatar with powers not earned or accrued through spending time playing the game- the point of electronic entertainment here- is something that most of us dislike because it bleeds economic stratification into our virtual worlds.  Specifically, in a land control PvP game, it provides advantages to a player otherwise accrued or earned by playing the game via a one-time lump sum payment to the devs.  It sets an awful precedent, which is why I think many see it being pretty much the same as P2W.

    image
  • NegativeJoeNegativeJoe Member UncommonPosts: 212
    Actually, this game is nothing like lining people up at a starting line, etc., because this game isn't a race for every player to become King.

    you can try to brush it off with these obscure comments, but the point of any player playing any mmorpg is to get powerful. max the content, whether  its max crafting, finishing raid progression, getting that perfect template in daoc or whatever. 

    this game ,k you have guys starting out buying entire kingdoms, some others running counties, and you expect the averag3e person to play this being a peon?  

    the only hope is that no one ever actually looks into it.  I am guessing you are one of the ones who paid money or something?  and finally realizing there is no real advantage because the 80 other people playing have the same pair of roller skates

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  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer Member EpicPosts: 8,814
    edited March 2017
    I think the whole argument is moot.

  • MadFrenchieMadFrenchie Member LegendaryPosts: 8,483
    edited March 2017
    Actually, this game is nothing like lining people up at a starting line, etc., because this game isn't a race for every player to become King.

    you can try to brush it off with these obscure comments, but the point of any player playing any mmorpg is to get powerful. max the content, whether  its max crafting, finishing raid progression, getting that perfect template in daoc or whatever. 

    this game ,k you have guys starting out buying entire kingdoms, some others running counties, and you expect the averag3e person to play this being a peon?  

    the only hope is that no one ever actually looks into it.  I am guessing you are one of the ones who paid money or something?  and finally realizing there is no real advantage because the 80 other people playing have the same pair of roller skates
    That is the object of most MMOS, yes.  To get more powerful, to get the best gear, etc.  But the design goals of this game are to create a virtual world not yet another gear-grind where every single character ends up being savior of the world a la World of Warcraft.  It's not that type of game.  In this game, some people will be going for their own Kingdoms, sure, but not everyone obviously.  Not everyone gets to be the hero or the king.
    I'm right with ya Sedryn, but unless a kingdom grants no real bonuses to the player, I would highly doubt that even whales are willing to spend 10,000 for what amounts to an extra nameplate above their character's heads.

    That's the catch 22 that selling such high-dollar items places these developers into: the whales that spend a lot of money will continue to spend, but only if they deem the product they receive worthwhile.  Conversely, the more benefits you provide to the customer at the behest of his almighty dollar, the more you become a slave to that customer's whims and the more disgusting a taste left in the mouths of normal customers who do not wish/can not afford to spend thousands of dollars on one game.

    Without spending time trying to mine through forum and preview posts on the internet, I would safely bet large sums of money myself that having your own kingships comes with an entire court of benefits (see what I did there??  No??  You're right, I can do better).  These aren't earned by playing the game or forming any kind of coalition through building relationships between groups of players in-game or even on the game forums.  It comes directly from buying those benefits through the kingship pledge package.  

    An analogy, to complete the point: you are paired off with another person and each provided sustenance from a centralized "god" (the developer), yet the person next to you was served steak, locally-sourced eggs, the classiest of wines and all the trimmings.  You receive your daily meal of crackers, an apple, and water...  Do you really think, just because your food provides sustenance the same as his, that you're on the same level or he does not enjoy a more advantageous position?  What if he starts offering you bites of his steak, but only if you clean his room?  Are you disadvantaged then?

    Point being, just because you do not place players in direct competition with one another, it does not mean that the sour taste of socioeconomic stratification cannot still be felt in games like these, where players can buy their way to literal in-game power.  A kingship, and the benefits that go along with it, are examples of in-game power.  Maybe he only receives taxes as king; well, he has inherently more buying power than players who did not buy a kingship.  Maybe he recovers more resources from his lands?  He inherently has more gathering power than players who did not buy a kingship.  So on and so forth, ad nauseum.

    image
  • NegativeJoeNegativeJoe Member UncommonPosts: 212
      In this game, some people will be going for their own Kingdoms, sure, but not everyone obviously.  Not everyone gets to be the hero or the king.
    exactly.  just the ones that give them thousands of dollars will.

      you really don't see an issue with the viability of any population at all in this game?

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  • TermiiTermii Member CommonPosts: 6
    edited March 2017

      In this game, some people will be going for their own Kingdoms, sure, but not everyone obviously.  Not everyone gets to be the hero or the king.
    exactly.  just the ones that give them thousands of dollars will. 

      you really don't see an issue with the viability of any population at all in this game?

    Thats not true. There are many things in CoE you can do, become a Hero, Crafter, Noble, Dungeonlord etc. You can also buy many things with $$$ (noble titles, land, stuff to advance your settlements with). BUT you can not buy any character advancements(no xp potions, no skills, no achievements, no buffs of any sort)

    Furthermore, king may be a buyable title, but is still below Emperor(the person who unifies the whole continent)=highest noble titles possible. 

    Last but not least, king is not as desireable as most think. As a king, you are deeply routed in the Story. Therefore if you die once, you lose 2 months of gametime (~5€ and time to get storypoints). A normal person loses 2 days of gametime per death (~0,15€). If you can not live long enough to farm Story Points, you wont be able to overtake your noble heir to be the next king. This means, a king can not be a Hero/adventure/soldier if he wants to keep his title.

    A king may have ingame wealth, but he has to manage his kingdom for roughly 20hrs/week, too.
  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Termii said:



    ...

    Furthermore, king may be a buyable title, but is still below Emperor(the person who unifies the whole continent)=highest noble titles possible. 

    ....
    Ah, now it becomes clearer !

    I guess you'd have to be king to be able to compete for the emperor position, I see now why some people are willing to pay $10K for a massive head start in that race, lol
  • RasiemRasiem Member UncommonPosts: 318
    edited March 2017
    My thoughts are that it is CLEARLY P2W for the following reasons:


    1. Buy yourself up to a kingship (or multiple kingships in at least 1 case of a guy who spent 40k)
    2. Buy yourself a 3 month no wipe head start in a PvP territory control game with looting
    3. Use real money to buy IP
    4. Use IP to buy items such as:
    • land
    • buildings
    • resources (both common and uncommon)
    • mounts
    • siege weapons

    Feel free to have a different opinion but to me this is clearly one of the most over the top P2W games I have seen.

      I understand where your coming from but you actually listed the reason its not P2W remember this is a totally player driven game and the people buying in understand they can lose everything at anytime but tis the fact there paying to basically get the game started. Its not P2W because after launch and correct me if im wrong, you cannot buy kingdoms and titles anymore. Honestly what worries me are hackers I think there needs to be some real next level defense for this game.
  • Slapshot1188Slapshot1188 Member LegendaryPosts: 11,851
    Rasiem said:
    My thoughts are that it is CLEARLY P2W for the following reasons:


    1. Buy yourself up to a kingship (or multiple kingships in at least 1 case of a guy who spent 40k)
    2. Buy yourself a 3 month no wipe head start in a PvP territory control game with looting
    3. Use real money to buy IP
    4. Use IP to buy items such as:
    • land
    • buildings
    • resources (both common and uncommon)
    • mounts
    • siege weapons

    Feel free to have a different opinion but to me this is clearly one of the most over the top P2W games I have seen.

      I understand where your coming from but you actually listed the reason its not P2W remember this is a totally player driven game and the people buying in understand they can lose everything at anytime but tis the fact there paying to basically get the game started. Its not P2W because after launch and correct me if im wrong, you cannot buy kingdoms and titles anymore. Honestly what worries me are hackers I think there needs to be some real next level defense for this game.
    So your saying it's not P2W because you can only P2W before they launch the game...

    Makes total sense now!

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  • luclinraiderluclinraider Member UncommonPosts: 91
    LoL!

    A Cash shop with a few minor convinece items like Rev Online hits and everyone screams P2W.

    Then there's this garbage, with the devs flat out saying "We don't see a problem with giving high donating players GM accounts". And people try to defend it. You can literally buy a GM account, allowing you to spawn anything you want....it doesn't get much more p2w than that.

    Sorry....but your fanboi is showing.
  • KrynKryn Member UncommonPosts: 172
    In my eyes its P2W.  No amount of squabbling will change my mind.  I won't even try to change yours because frankly, I don't care.
  • genaknoscgenaknosc Member UncommonPosts: 112
    People just argue semantics like it proves something.

    I suppose the most fair interpretation of the P2W aspects of CoE would be better labeled as, "Pay to have a huge advantage over everyone else when the game first starts".

    See, the thing is, sometimes having a huge starting advantage puts you in a position that makes it difficult to dislodge you from power. Maybe there is no way to "win" which all the fanbois keep emphasizing, but I'm positive you can sure as hell dominate everybody else for the entirety of the "story", or at least until the game is shutdown prematurely.
  • RPGMASTERGAMERRPGMASTERGAMER Member UncommonPosts: 516
    Rasiem said:
    My thoughts are that it is CLEARLY P2W for the following reasons:


    1. Buy yourself up to a kingship (or multiple kingships in at least 1 case of a guy who spent 40k)
    2. Buy yourself a 3 month no wipe head start in a PvP territory control game with looting
    3. Use real money to buy IP
    4. Use IP to buy items such as:
    • land
    • buildings
    • resources (both common and uncommon)
    • mounts
    • siege weapons

    Feel free to have a different opinion but to me this is clearly one of the most over the top P2W games I have seen.

      I understand where your coming from but you actually listed the reason its not P2W remember this is a totally player driven game and the people buying in understand they can lose everything at anytime but tis the fact there paying to basically get the game started. Its not P2W because after launch and correct me if im wrong, you cannot buy kingdoms and titles anymore. Honestly what worries me are hackers I think there needs to be some real next level defense for this game.
    that p2win but only curently !! they lock the p2win after releases

    thanks make everything okay now
  • Asm0deusAsm0deus Member EpicPosts: 3,149
    edited March 2017
    genaknosc said:
    People just argue semantics like it proves something.

    I suppose the most fair interpretation of the P2W aspects of CoE would be better labeled as, "Pay to have a huge advantage over everyone else when the game first starts".

    See, the thing is, sometimes having a huge starting advantage puts you in a position that makes it difficult to dislodge you from power. Maybe there is no way to "win" which all the fanbois keep emphasizing, but I'm positive you can sure as hell dominate everybody else for the entirety of the "story", or at least until the game is shutdown prematurely.
    Indeed I even remember at one point the power that be for this game said something along the lines of, and I am paraphrasing here, " that they didn't want things to be fair, they want to model things like in real life where some people have more power due to cash etc etc"

    That was the bases for their model and arguing its not p2w is super silly when they themselves as much as said they want it that way... with whales getting advantages etc.

    Just like the failed Revival game by Illfonics.

    Brenics ~ Just to point out I do believe Chris Roberts is going down as the man who cheated backers and took down crowdfunding for gaming.





  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,959
    The way I've heard it explained is, titles and land 'may' be lost.  I've never heard anyone confirm or deny that because your character will die, your title and/or lands are therefore temporary and will be lost upon time of character's death.  I assumed titles and land can be inherited and passed to your new incarnation.  

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  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,798
    The way I've heard it explained is, titles and land 'may' be lost.  I've never heard anyone confirm or deny that because your character will die, your title and/or lands are therefore temporary and will be lost upon time of character's death.  I assumed titles and land can be inherited and passed to your new incarnation.  
    Until there's a playable game, it is all just theorycrafting.

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    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

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  • genaknoscgenaknosc Member UncommonPosts: 112
    Kyleran said:
    Until there's a playable game, it is all just theorycrafting.

    But when the fanbois speak it is with such utter surety. But then, perhaps they do know something we don't, after all you need to pay like minimum $500 or something to get access to the real news of the game and double that to get the real inside scoops. Not even joking. insane
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 35,798
    genaknosc said:
    Kyleran said:
    Until there's a playable game, it is all just theorycrafting.

    But when the fanbois speak it is with such utter surety. But then, perhaps they do know something we don't, after all you need to pay like minimum $500 or something to get access to the real news of the game and double that to get the real inside scoops. Not even joking. insane
    Citadel of Sorcery has this same sort of "inner circle" for very high paying donors and only they reportedly get to see any of the "real gameplay"

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • genaknoscgenaknosc Member UncommonPosts: 112
    genaknosc said:
    Kyleran said:
    Until there's a playable game, it is all just theorycrafting.

    But when the fanbois speak it is with such utter surety. But then, perhaps they do know something we don't, after all you need to pay like minimum $500 or something to get access to the real news of the game and double that to get the real inside scoops. Not even joking. insane
    Or you can dispense with the retarded conspiracy theories and just go to their website.  Not even joking ...

    To read the non-updates basically only showing screenshots of shit they probably just bought off an asset store? Even the desperately optimistic blogs by Tim on this website lament the steadily decreasing value of updates that are approved for release to the general public plebs. 
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