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This is the Space MMO to watch.

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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Worst possible thing you can do to a space sim? Compare it to Star Citizen. First of all, this game will NEVER have the graphics fidelity that Star Citizen has. Like ever. It won't likely have the same graphics fidelity that Star Citizen has right now. Or even a year ago. Honestly, I think that @filmoret just hurt this game here. SC and DU are so vastly different in scope that the comparison only serves to hurt DU. 
    This game is like SC but with more content and less graphics.   Sure if the only thing that matters is graphics then SC wins.  The probability that this game launches and we never see SC is also very high.

    Again, you're talking as if the launch of this game is a foregone conclusion. There are obviously technical hurdles surrounding this "type" of game when multiple developers on different projects elude to problems that the game (SC) would have to overcome. Trivializing these by making it sound like it's a "for sure thing" doesn't help the developers, it only creates additional barriers to making the RIGHT game.

    I mean, fuck, just read their Technology page. First paragraph tells you about them having to solve problems using creative solutions. That tells of technological hurdles. They also mention that they will "hopefully redefine a new era for the MMO genre", so they aren't even as confident in themselves as you are. Second paragraph talks about how they created their own technology for a Continuous Single Shard Cluster which will handle millions of players...... what could go wrong, right? Third paragraph talks about how they've developed a custom voxel engine. Again, building your own engine is ALWAYS the easiest way to do it /sarcasm. Third, they're using a relatively unknown engine (Uniengine). Cool! What could go wrong? 

    I have every hope that DU will be a great game BECAUSE of what they are striving for. However, to not acknowledge the technological hurdles they are facing is just hilariously misguided and only serves to hurt the game. Luckily, the way you talk about it's release being so matter-of-fact, it at least makes you seem less credible and hopefully people won't pile on and treat it that way. Just as with any game, it's about managing expectations. I'm a big fan of small teams, but there is still only so many hours in a day, too. Just saying, I remember a space game released last year by a small company that ended up NOT meeting expectations set by the community. 
    The difference here is.   I'm not expecting a Star Citizen level fiasco to take place.  You somehow do.  They are projecting alpha beta for 2017 and game release for 2018.  At the worse possible situation we will see 6-8 months of delays for this timeline.  Unlike Star Citizen who will claim something is 7 days away from release and a year later we still dont see it.   And yes if they do end up taking an extra 5 years for Dual Universe then they will get much deserved critical input from me and a lot of other people.  

    Cool, so your expectation from a team of developers with, effectively, zero game experience is that they will manage a game project well. To me that's scary as fuck! I'm not saying it can't be done, but you're talking like these guys have been doing shit like this for 20 years. Fuck, their Voxel Engine designer is fresh out of school!! All I'm saying is that people really need to start tempering their expectations with some amount of reality. These guys hopefully have what it takes to deliver a game that's fun to play. Let's maybe set the bar there before we start talking about how they're going to revolutionize the industry. 
    Again you are using Star Citizen as an example of how game development will happen.  That is a really bad example and maybe it hurts your feelings but the incompetence of CIG is unbelievable.  If DU is half way competent they will be 8 months late at the most.  And when beta launches in about 6 months I will be here to remind you.

    Dude! I'm totally NOT saying that Star Citizen is an example of how game development will happen, or should happen. The reality is that Star Citizen is still progressing IN SPITE of horrible project management. However, the biggest mistake someone can do is start throwing out dates. Star Citizen is a SUPERB example of this. The reality is that we, as humans, are REALLY bad at estimating work that will take longer. Coincidentally, our estimates get more and more accurate the smaller the task is (as far as estimates). It's actually one of the main reasons that game companies don't come to E3 and say, "We're working on the greatest game you've ever seen! It will be out in 2027 (ten years away)". No, game companies will usually announce games a year, MAYBE a little more, out. Why? Shit happens! So unless we've closed all our knowledge gaps and we are essentially in final testing, our estimates for release could vary wildly. It's the one flaw of crowdfunding. How long as DU already been in development? I don't know. Maybe they've already addressed all of their technical knowledge gaps and they are ready to go to market today. THAT is the way this gets done by next year. So unless they're sandbagging it and have way more than what they've let on to date, it will be an uphill battle. 

    If they hit their beta in 6 months, feel free to remind me. I'm married, it wouldn't be the first time that I've been told I'm wrong. I really hope I am wrong. This isn't a matter of "Nah, nah-na boo boo, stick your face in doo doo." It's just being real and actually setting a realistic expectation for the game. Who fucking cares if it's out next year or 2019, or 2020. If it's a good game, people will play it. Will they pay for it? Who knows, that's another matter entirely!!! One way it WILL fail, though, is if it intends to put schedule ahead of quality. The road of Crowdfunded MMORPGs is littered with the corpses of games with good intentions and revolutionary technology. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,926
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    Worst possible thing you can do to a space sim? Compare it to Star Citizen. First of all, this game will NEVER have the graphics fidelity that Star Citizen has. Like ever. It won't likely have the same graphics fidelity that Star Citizen has right now. Or even a year ago. Honestly, I think that @filmoret just hurt this game here. SC and DU are so vastly different in scope that the comparison only serves to hurt DU. 
    This game is like SC but with more content and less graphics.   Sure if the only thing that matters is graphics then SC wins.  The probability that this game launches and we never see SC is also very high.

    Again, you're talking as if the launch of this game is a foregone conclusion. There are obviously technical hurdles surrounding this "type" of game when multiple developers on different projects elude to problems that the game (SC) would have to overcome. Trivializing these by making it sound like it's a "for sure thing" doesn't help the developers, it only creates additional barriers to making the RIGHT game.

    I mean, fuck, just read their Technology page. First paragraph tells you about them having to solve problems using creative solutions. That tells of technological hurdles. They also mention that they will "hopefully redefine a new era for the MMO genre", so they aren't even as confident in themselves as you are. Second paragraph talks about how they created their own technology for a Continuous Single Shard Cluster which will handle millions of players...... what could go wrong, right? Third paragraph talks about how they've developed a custom voxel engine. Again, building your own engine is ALWAYS the easiest way to do it /sarcasm. Third, they're using a relatively unknown engine (Uniengine). Cool! What could go wrong? 

    I have every hope that DU will be a great game BECAUSE of what they are striving for. However, to not acknowledge the technological hurdles they are facing is just hilariously misguided and only serves to hurt the game. Luckily, the way you talk about it's release being so matter-of-fact, it at least makes you seem less credible and hopefully people won't pile on and treat it that way. Just as with any game, it's about managing expectations. I'm a big fan of small teams, but there is still only so many hours in a day, too. Just saying, I remember a space game released last year by a small company that ended up NOT meeting expectations set by the community. 
    The difference here is.   I'm not expecting a Star Citizen level fiasco to take place.  You somehow do.  They are projecting alpha beta for 2017 and game release for 2018.  At the worse possible situation we will see 6-8 months of delays for this timeline.  Unlike Star Citizen who will claim something is 7 days away from release and a year later we still dont see it.   And yes if they do end up taking an extra 5 years for Dual Universe then they will get much deserved critical input from me and a lot of other people.  

    Cool, so your expectation from a team of developers with, effectively, zero game experience is that they will manage a game project well. To me that's scary as fuck! I'm not saying it can't be done, but you're talking like these guys have been doing shit like this for 20 years. Fuck, their Voxel Engine designer is fresh out of school!! All I'm saying is that people really need to start tempering their expectations with some amount of reality. These guys hopefully have what it takes to deliver a game that's fun to play. Let's maybe set the bar there before we start talking about how they're going to revolutionize the industry. 
    Again you are using Star Citizen as an example of how game development will happen.  That is a really bad example and maybe it hurts your feelings but the incompetence of CIG is unbelievable.  If DU is half way competent they will be 8 months late at the most.  And when beta launches in about 6 months I will be here to remind you.

    Dude! I'm totally NOT saying that Star Citizen is an example of how game development will happen, or should happen. The reality is that Star Citizen is still progressing IN SPITE of horrible project management. However, the biggest mistake someone can do is start throwing out dates. Star Citizen is a SUPERB example of this. The reality is that we, as humans, are REALLY bad at estimating work that will take longer. Coincidentally, our estimates get more and more accurate the smaller the task is (as far as estimates). It's actually one of the main reasons that game companies don't come to E3 and say, "We're working on the greatest game you've ever seen! It will be out in 2027 (ten years away)". No, game companies will usually announce games a year, MAYBE a little more, out. Why? Shit happens! So unless we've closed all our knowledge gaps and we are essentially in final testing, our estimates for release could vary wildly. It's the one flaw of crowdfunding. How long as DU already been in development? I don't know. Maybe they've already addressed all of their technical knowledge gaps and they are ready to go to market today. THAT is the way this gets done by next year. So unless they're sandbagging it and have way more than what they've let on to date, it will be an uphill battle. 

    If they hit their beta in 6 months, feel free to remind me. I'm married, it wouldn't be the first time that I've been told I'm wrong. I really hope I am wrong. This isn't a matter of "Nah, nah-na boo boo, stick your face in doo doo." It's just being real and actually setting a realistic expectation for the game. Who fucking cares if it's out next year or 2019, or 2020. If it's a good game, people will play it. Will they pay for it? Who knows, that's another matter entirely!!! One way it WILL fail, though, is if it intends to put schedule ahead of quality. The road of Crowdfunded MMORPGs is littered with the corpses of games with good intentions and revolutionary technology. 
    Who generally run out of funding and have to launch regardless of quality or features.

    Far larger and better funded efforts have found themselves in similar situation.

    Hence my calls for proof of a solid funding plan and my skepticism at plans to deliver miraculous technology (millions of players in a single shard indeed) all on a beer budget.

    That one item alone is something CCP continues to chase though the days if it being necessary have likely long passed 

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • SabasSabas Member UncommonPosts: 217
    Erillion said:

    Just a reality check here:

    ETH Zurich is the European Version of the MIT.

    The Ecole Polytechnique (where he studied) is not even among the first 100 universities in Europe.

    "Jean-Christophe Baillie holds a degree from the École Polytechnique in Paris where he studied computer science and theoretical physics. He did his PhD in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics at Université Pierre & Marie Curie in co-supervision with Luc Steels at the Sony Computer Science Lab in Paris."

    http://www.4icu.org/top-universities-europe/

    But same as you ... i backed, it got funded, i have high hopes for this game.


    Have fun


    Oh, thanks for that man.
    Its just the way it was explained to me. 

    But that doesnt make his credentials and previous work any less impressive. 
    Always nice to learn new things. :)
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Kyleran said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:


    Dude! I'm totally NOT saying that Star Citizen is an example of how game development will happen, or should happen. The reality is that Star Citizen is still progressing IN SPITE of horrible project management. However, the biggest mistake someone can do is start throwing out dates. Star Citizen is a SUPERB example of this. The reality is that we, as humans, are REALLY bad at estimating work that will take longer. Coincidentally, our estimates get more and more accurate the smaller the task is (as far as estimates). It's actually one of the main reasons that game companies don't come to E3 and say, "We're working on the greatest game you've ever seen! It will be out in 2027 (ten years away)". No, game companies will usually announce games a year, MAYBE a little more, out. Why? Shit happens! So unless we've closed all our knowledge gaps and we are essentially in final testing, our estimates for release could vary wildly. It's the one flaw of crowdfunding. How long as DU already been in development? I don't know. Maybe they've already addressed all of their technical knowledge gaps and they are ready to go to market today. THAT is the way this gets done by next year. So unless they're sandbagging it and have way more than what they've let on to date, it will be an uphill battle. 

    If they hit their beta in 6 months, feel free to remind me. I'm married, it wouldn't be the first time that I've been told I'm wrong. I really hope I am wrong. This isn't a matter of "Nah, nah-na boo boo, stick your face in doo doo." It's just being real and actually setting a realistic expectation for the game. Who fucking cares if it's out next year or 2019, or 2020. If it's a good game, people will play it. Will they pay for it? Who knows, that's another matter entirely!!! One way it WILL fail, though, is if it intends to put schedule ahead of quality. The road of Crowdfunded MMORPGs is littered with the corpses of games with good intentions and revolutionary technology. 
    Who generally run out of funding and have to launch regardless of quality or features.

    Far larger and better funded efforts have found themselves in similar situation.

    Hence my calls for proof of a solid funding plan and my skepticism at plans to deliver miraculous technology (millions of players in a single shard indeed) all on a beer budget.

    That one item alone is something CCP continues to chase though the days if it being necessary have likely long passed 
    Honestly I don't see anything too difficult to do here.  NMS practically did it.  You think about it for a minute.  How many features did NMS need to be a complete success?  All it needed was some deeper content.  The ability to talk with the aliens and form alliances.  Something of a storyline.   Everything you needed for a great game is all there it just needed to be tweaked.  Any modding community could turn NMS into a dream game within 6 months.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Sabas said:
    Erillion said:

    Just a reality check here:

    ETH Zurich is the European Version of the MIT.

    The Ecole Polytechnique (where he studied) is not even among the first 100 universities in Europe.

    "Jean-Christophe Baillie holds a degree from the École Polytechnique in Paris where he studied computer science and theoretical physics. He did his PhD in Artificial Intelligence and Robotics at Université Pierre & Marie Curie in co-supervision with Luc Steels at the Sony Computer Science Lab in Paris."

    http://www.4icu.org/top-universities-europe/

    But same as you ... i backed, it got funded, i have high hopes for this game.


    Have fun


    Oh, thanks for that man.
    Its just the way it was explained to me. 

    But that doesnt make his credentials and previous work any less impressive. 
    Always nice to learn new things. :)
    I got a horrible education from Sony Computer Science Lab in Paris.

    T-shirts 20$
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 33,926
    filmoret said:
    Kyleran said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:


    Dude! I'm totally NOT saying that Star Citizen is an example of how game development will happen, or should happen. The reality is that Star Citizen is still progressing IN SPITE of horrible project management. However, the biggest mistake someone can do is start throwing out dates. Star Citizen is a SUPERB example of this. The reality is that we, as humans, are REALLY bad at estimating work that will take longer. Coincidentally, our estimates get more and more accurate the smaller the task is (as far as estimates). It's actually one of the main reasons that game companies don't come to E3 and say, "We're working on the greatest game you've ever seen! It will be out in 2027 (ten years away)". No, game companies will usually announce games a year, MAYBE a little more, out. Why? Shit happens! So unless we've closed all our knowledge gaps and we are essentially in final testing, our estimates for release could vary wildly. It's the one flaw of crowdfunding. How long as DU already been in development? I don't know. Maybe they've already addressed all of their technical knowledge gaps and they are ready to go to market today. THAT is the way this gets done by next year. So unless they're sandbagging it and have way more than what they've let on to date, it will be an uphill battle. 

    If they hit their beta in 6 months, feel free to remind me. I'm married, it wouldn't be the first time that I've been told I'm wrong. I really hope I am wrong. This isn't a matter of "Nah, nah-na boo boo, stick your face in doo doo." It's just being real and actually setting a realistic expectation for the game. Who fucking cares if it's out next year or 2019, or 2020. If it's a good game, people will play it. Will they pay for it? Who knows, that's another matter entirely!!! One way it WILL fail, though, is if it intends to put schedule ahead of quality. The road of Crowdfunded MMORPGs is littered with the corpses of games with good intentions and revolutionary technology. 
    Who generally run out of funding and have to launch regardless of quality or features.

    Far larger and better funded efforts have found themselves in similar situation.

    Hence my calls for proof of a solid funding plan and my skepticism at plans to deliver miraculous technology (millions of players in a single shard indeed) all on a beer budget.

    That one item alone is something CCP continues to chase though the days if it being necessary have likely long passed 
    Honestly I don't see anything too difficult to do here.  NMS practically did it.  You think about it for a minute.  How many features did NMS need to be a complete success?  All it needed was some deeper content.  The ability to talk with the aliens and form alliances.  Something of a storyline.   Everything you needed for a great game is all there it just needed to be tweaked.  Any modding community could turn NMS into a dream game within 6 months.
    Well and multiplayer of course. ;)

    Or just have stated clearly from the start, its not in there. 

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing POE at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon






  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    Kyleran said:
    filmoret said:
    Kyleran said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:
    filmoret said:
    CrazKanuk said:


    Dude! I'm totally NOT saying that Star Citizen is an example of how game development will happen, or should happen. The reality is that Star Citizen is still progressing IN SPITE of horrible project management. However, the biggest mistake someone can do is start throwing out dates. Star Citizen is a SUPERB example of this. The reality is that we, as humans, are REALLY bad at estimating work that will take longer. Coincidentally, our estimates get more and more accurate the smaller the task is (as far as estimates). It's actually one of the main reasons that game companies don't come to E3 and say, "We're working on the greatest game you've ever seen! It will be out in 2027 (ten years away)". No, game companies will usually announce games a year, MAYBE a little more, out. Why? Shit happens! So unless we've closed all our knowledge gaps and we are essentially in final testing, our estimates for release could vary wildly. It's the one flaw of crowdfunding. How long as DU already been in development? I don't know. Maybe they've already addressed all of their technical knowledge gaps and they are ready to go to market today. THAT is the way this gets done by next year. So unless they're sandbagging it and have way more than what they've let on to date, it will be an uphill battle. 

    If they hit their beta in 6 months, feel free to remind me. I'm married, it wouldn't be the first time that I've been told I'm wrong. I really hope I am wrong. This isn't a matter of "Nah, nah-na boo boo, stick your face in doo doo." It's just being real and actually setting a realistic expectation for the game. Who fucking cares if it's out next year or 2019, or 2020. If it's a good game, people will play it. Will they pay for it? Who knows, that's another matter entirely!!! One way it WILL fail, though, is if it intends to put schedule ahead of quality. The road of Crowdfunded MMORPGs is littered with the corpses of games with good intentions and revolutionary technology. 
    Who generally run out of funding and have to launch regardless of quality or features.

    Far larger and better funded efforts have found themselves in similar situation.

    Hence my calls for proof of a solid funding plan and my skepticism at plans to deliver miraculous technology (millions of players in a single shard indeed) all on a beer budget.

    That one item alone is something CCP continues to chase though the days if it being necessary have likely long passed 
    Honestly I don't see anything too difficult to do here.  NMS practically did it.  You think about it for a minute.  How many features did NMS need to be a complete success?  All it needed was some deeper content.  The ability to talk with the aliens and form alliances.  Something of a storyline.   Everything you needed for a great game is all there it just needed to be tweaked.  Any modding community could turn NMS into a dream game within 6 months.
    Well and multiplayer of course. ;)

    Or just have stated clearly from the start, its not in there. 
    Yes the mmo part is the hardest for sure.  Especially with a sandbox universe where almost everything is client side.  Having 100k planets to keep track of and the players to boot.  That whole seed thing is really cool the downside is everything is stored on the players computers.  Leaving much room for hacking and exploits.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • CostaniusCostanius Member UncommonPosts: 216
    I backed DU as well because I would like to have a MMO like that and I think these guys are for real.
    Plus its a european developer and they plan a subscription model. No asia grinder p2w bullsh*t.
    They even had an open day in their office in Paris shortly after the kickstarter where backers and interested people were invited to come, look at the game prototype and talk to the devs.

    Their argument why they'll be able to make this game with a much lower budget is that they'll just provide the tech, the world, the sandbox with procedural generated planets. All content will be created by the players, be it spaceships, bases, cities, organisations, factions etc. So they don't need to hire content creators like story writers, designers, animators and programmers for spaceships. There will be no pre-built spaceships and space stations like in SC, the players will create them all themselves. In SC You can't build and create spaceships, You have to buy them as they are.
    Both projects are ambitious with a different focus. And I like both and I wish both of them success!

    For the meantime, to get in the mood, Empyrion Galactic Survival is really an awesome game and there are multiplayer servers with 100 players already. Its one of the best Early Access games on steam in my opinion with very active devs and upgraded often.

    -----------------------------------
    Life is too short to play bad games.

  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    OP weren't you the one that was saying COD and Mass Effect Andromeda would be the next great space sims? As well as they made SC an obsolete idea?

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


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