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Future MMORPGs: Do we really need a Monk class?

13

Comments

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 10,610
  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 520
    This discussion has devolved into the plausibility of fantastical powers and professions. Have you two really thought about how silly that is? We're on an MMORPG forum...discussing the plausibility of classes in RPGs...I can't think of a single class in any RPG or MMORPG (combined with abilities/lore) that is plausible...
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    This discussion has devolved into the plausibility of fantastical powers and professions. Have you two really thought about how silly that is? We're on an MMORPG forum...discussing the plausibility of classes in RPGs...I can't think of a single class in any RPG or MMORPG (combined with abilities/lore) that is plausible...
    Actually that was pretty much my original point. There is a great store of myth, legend and fiction to draw on as well as the infinite possibilities of the imagination. It does not have to be real to be fun. But something being present in myth, legend or fiction does not make it real.
  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    laserit said:
    Laugh all you like @craftseeker

    Things like the reading of bones and the visiting of Oracles are things that gave people like Alexander the Great the courage and the confidence to do the things they did.

    The effect those beliefs had and have on our world are very real.

    Did those bones really tell them something? Well us floating around this universe on our little pea called Earth talking about this shit proves it's possible.
    There are a great many inspiring works of fiction out there. Being inspired by them and doing something as a consequence does not make them any less fictional  nor does 'talking about this shit' prove that it is posssible. 
  • rounnerrounner Member UncommonPosts: 725
    Have you ever played one?

    Did you enjoy it?

  • craftseekercraftseeker Member RarePosts: 1,740
    edited March 2017
    rounner said:
    Have you ever played one?

    Did you enjoy it?

    Yes and yes! Monk characters can be enormous fun. I played a Ratonga (ratman) monk in a snowy white habit for a year in EQ2 it was a total blast and fun to tank with. 
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,466
    Zuljan said:
    Monks were always offtanks not tanks. Seeing as they pull and take lots of damage in the process, it always made sense to me they got an AC boost. Without him you had SKs pulling and FD failing or warriors raw-dogging 4 packs (which is what happened if you didn't have a chanter). They also didn't have endurance issues like rogues in raid situations and featured different combat mechanics/disciplines to feel fresher than other melee classes. Cool class like the Beastlord; uncommonly played but 100% necessary to maximize a group/raid. No doubt it'll be a fun, complete class in Pantheon
    In EQ2 Monks are quite often progression raiding main tanks. So it depends on the game.Give me a EQ2 bruiser and Vanguard Disciple. 

    To the Op, this is fiction fantasy not real life. 




  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Someone probably already said this, but monks aren't only asian. And even in the vast area we consider Asia, almost all monk are peaceful and do not practice violence... ever. Not even as a martial art.

    I think the more disturbing thing about your argument though is that real life monks were weak against real weapons. I mean, real clerics are fucking terrible at defending against real soldiers. Shall we abolish clerics based on this?

    No. And we shouldn't abolish the monk class, because the idea that a monk has a deeper relationship with the spiritual, is part of that class. It isn't only a martial artists that punches things (although that would be completely enough for me in a fantasy setting), but there is something almost always supernatural about where their real power comes from. Just like mages, druids, clerics, etc.

    And from a gameplay perspective, I've seen many versions of monks that fit quite correctly. Off tank is a common mmorpg perspective. But in a more traditional perspective, they are a backloaded class that requires patience to get to the good parts. Everyone accepts that a wizard will be this way, but for whatever reason, people that are attracted to the more melee oriented mindset are often unwilling to accept this.

    Either way, fuck yeah monks.


  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    edited March 2017
    I think the real question should be: Do we really need classes?

    I always just thought of Monk as an unarmed type class, sorta like a Pugalist.
  • ThebeastttThebeasttt Member RarePosts: 1,130
    Magic doesn't exist, clearly it has no place in Pantheon.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,266
    Aori said:
    I'm tired of Monk classes being limited to fists and kicks. How about Bo staff and kicks.
    YES THIS. This is the kind I was referring to in my post as well. Forget the fists. It's all about the Bo staff. Looovveee the Bo staff and way too few games do it.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    Well by now most of us realize DnD is the godfather of rpg's and ideas/classes were copied from.

    Monks originated in China .So says the scriptures his first three disciples were already highly trained martial artists,likely being former military.So this is likely how martial arts began in the Bhuda temples as they were large and needed protection.

    So i had to look up as to why DnD made the Monk.The guy who created the Monk class said he got the ideas from a book series named the Destroyer back in 1971.In that series the Monk was trained by several martial art trainers as well as other type trainers to become an Assassin for the US government.Hence likely why they also added the Assassin class.

    However i see far too many ideas copied from DnD,i like to see games use their own ideas ,as long as they make sense.

    Imo since martial arts is likely the oldest form of true skilled combat,most certainly we need a Monk class as it gives us the very religious and combat ideals.

    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,885
    edited March 2017
    The friar in DAoC more reminiscent of Friar Tuck.

    This is from Kerala India where they practice a form of martial arts called Kalari


  • laseritlaserit Member LegendaryPosts: 7,591
    edited March 2017
    laserit said:
    Laugh all you like @craftseeker

    Things like the reading of bones and the visiting of Oracles are things that gave people like Alexander the Great the courage and the confidence to do the things they did.

    The effect those beliefs had and have on our world are very real.

    Did those bones really tell them something? Well us floating around this universe on our little pea called Earth talking about this shit proves it's possible.
    There are a great many inspiring works of fiction out there. Being inspired by them and doing something as a consequence does not make them any less fictional  nor does 'talking about this shit' prove that it is posssible. 
    So because a god may not exist and is fictional, means that its priests are fictional and not real?

    What Necromancers practiced might have been Mumbo Jumbo but they definitely did exist.

    We're made out of Stardust, anything is possible. Who would have guessed  that the explosions of billions of stars would lead to a bunch of monkeys debating about whether Necromancers existed or not.

    Or should I say a chihuahua and a Koala bear ;)
    Post edited by laserit on

    "Be water my friend" - Bruce Lee

  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,772
    KFMs (Kung Fu Masters) were really well done in Blade and Soul.  Very satisfying combat as you beat the crap out of people.

    Here's a video of some 1v1.  Warning: the KFM in the video is a girl in her underwear.


  • WarlyxWarlyx Member EpicPosts: 3,361
    i usually prefer using weapons but yeah tons of ppl enjoy monk as a class (punchs kicks and the like)
  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    edited March 2017
    Someone probably already said this, but monks aren't only asian. And even in the vast area we consider Asia, almost all monk are peaceful and do not practice violence... ever. Not even as a martial art.

    I think the more disturbing thing about your argument though is that real life monks were weak against real weapons. I mean, real clerics are fucking terrible at defending against real soldiers. Shall we abolish clerics based on this?

    No. And we shouldn't abolish the monk class, because the idea that a monk has a deeper relationship with the spiritual, is part of that class. It isn't only a martial artists that punches things (although that would be completely enough for me in a fantasy setting), but there is something almost always supernatural about where their real power comes from. Just like mages, druids, clerics, etc.

    And from a gameplay perspective, I've seen many versions of monks that fit quite correctly. Off tank is a common mmorpg perspective. But in a more traditional perspective, they are a backloaded class that requires patience to get to the good parts. Everyone accepts that a wizard will be this way, but for whatever reason, people that are attracted to the more melee oriented mindset are often unwilling to accept this.

    Either way, fuck yeah monks.


    I've been eating my popcorn, enjoying this argument, but I just can't help myself; this is the 5thish person that has mentioned historical fact about monks, telling the OP his argument is invalid....Monks are tied to religious connotations, which is why they should be ruled out (as per nomenclature). This is the same reason they changed Crusader to Paladin (the term crusader is used in different context too but still tied to religion). Really don't get why the OP is getting bashed
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,067
    edited March 2017
    DMKano said:
    This is why monks/martial arts should always be IN:


    I just love this movie to bits. Esp that landlady in curlers and her shout.

    Kung Fu Hustle 2004
    Chamber of Chains
  • TyranusPrimeTyranusPrime Member UncommonPosts: 306
    edited March 2017
    DMKano said:
    This is why monks/martial arts should always be IN:


    Its the double-jump off of the eagle that takes this to the next level.. :P

    And this video is EXACTLY why Monk/Martial Artist is a necessary class.. Kudos, Kano.. *tips hat*

    ..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)

  • DagimirDagimir Member UncommonPosts: 20
    I feel like the current EQ version of monk would be doing a great disservice to Pantheon. Instead of just a tanky dps they should turn the monks of Pantheon into melee crowd control. Slows (nerve strikes), knockdowns(sweeps), placement abilities (throws). Add in short windows for scoring critical strikes through a vulnerbility system/ anatomy skill. This would give you a largely martial arts feel, new class direction, and a unique class.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    edited March 2017
    Zuljan said:
    I've been eating my popcorn, enjoying this argument, but I just can't help myself; this is the 5thish person that has mentioned historical fact about monks, telling the OP his argument is invalid....Monks are tied to religious connotations, which is why they should be ruled out (as per nomenclature). This is the same reason they changed Crusader to Paladin (the term crusader is used in different context too but still tied to religion). Really don't get why the OP is getting bashed
    Clerics are tied to religion. Druids are tied to religion. Mystics are tied to religion. Witchdoctors are tied to religion. Priests... PRIESTS are tied to religion. 

    Besides that, you must have misunderstood the original post. He wasn't saying that the monk class should be abolished because they are tied to religious connotation. And crusaders exist in many, many fantasy board games and video games.

    I really just don't understand your point of view at all and it feels like, even with all that popcorn and argument watching, that you didn't understand what you were reading. Show me where anyone said that a class should be removed from fantasy entertainment because it contains a religious connotation. Also, re-read the original post. He brought up historical accuracy to support his own viewpoint. Here is a quote:

    "Fists don't make sense evidenced by the monks getting their ass kicked by real armies when they tried that (Mongols). It only worked during assassination operations or against other unarmed/unarmored opponents."

    And disagreeing with someone is not bashing them. You quoted me and then said that you wondered why the OP was being bashed. I disagree with him and discussed my reasons why, but there was no bashing.
  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    edited March 2017
    Zuljan said:
    I've been eating my popcorn, enjoying this argument, but I just can't help myself; this is the 5thish person that has mentioned historical fact about monks, telling the OP his argument is invalid....Monks are tied to religious connotations, which is why they should be ruled out (as per nomenclature). This is the same reason they changed Crusader to Paladin (the term crusader is used in different context too but still tied to religion). Really don't get why the OP is getting bashed
    Clerics are tied to religion. Druids are tied to religion. Mystics are tied to religion. Witchdoctors are tied to religion. Priests... PRIESTS are tied to religion. 

    Besides that, you must have misunderstood the original post. He wasn't saying that the monk class should be abolished because they are tied to religious connotation. And crusaders exist in many, many fantasy board games and video games.

    I really just don't understand your point of view at all and it feels like, even with all that popcorn and argument watching, that you didn't understand what you were reading. Show me where anyone said that a class should be removed from fantasy entertainment because it contains a religious connotation. Also, re-read the original post. He brought up historical accuracy to support his own viewpoint. Here is a quote:

    "Fists don't make sense evidenced by the monks getting their ass kicked by real armies when they tried that (Mongols). It only worked during assassination operations or against other unarmed/unarmored opponents."

    And disagreeing with someone is not bashing them. You quoted me and then said that you wondered why the OP was being bashed. I disagree with him and discussed my reasons why, but there was no bashing.
    1) Neither a cleric nor a druid are tied to any formally recognized religion (i.e. you running around in your backyard with a WoW druid outfit doesn't make druids tied to religion)
    2) The other names you listed aren't even in Pantheon, which is why you never see such names in EQ etc because they are respectful of culture/religion unlike other Western companies not caring (what are you reading?)
    3) His second sentence is literalllllly historically referencing monks to Buddhism and Confucianism, and later he points out not needing to use Asian/ethnic-specific classes??  (what are you reading????).
    4)As I've already mentioned, half of his argument was because of the connotation of monk, not just the monk as a class (what are you reading?)

    @craftseeker

    My lawn needs mowing guys. EDIT: also spilled some of this popcorn I was eating
    Post edited by Zuljan on
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,230
    Fists don't make sense evidenced by the monks getting their ass kicked by real armies when they tried that (Mongols).

    I dont think there are armies in this game.
  • JurisDictumJurisDictum Member UncommonPosts: 31
    I guess my comment about the Mongols is unfair. I was just trying to say that in life and death struggle -- people use weapons. Even the warrior monks used weapons. And I guess I have the belief that armored knights tended to perform much better on the battle field than unarmored warriors...especially If they tried to use fists.

    But the whole point is kind of moot because monks rarely use fists in MMORPGS anyway...not since vanilla EQ. I guess as a light dps class -- monk makes enough sense. But I think most people agree the tank aspect does not.

    Mythology should conform to its own logos. Big strong fighters with heavy armor tend to have more hit points and take less damage from hits.

    We got Paladins as tank/healers. There are Direlords as warriors/cc (or spell damage). And we got Warriors as either tanky DPS or more just plain tanks. Then we have Rogues as light offensive. Bards as ulility/offense. We even have Rangers as a possible tanky/dps (they tend to annoyingly separate them into bow ranger vs melee ranger).

    I guess I'm just pointing out that there is already lots of tanks and lots of damage. The only thing unique about the concept of monk is lore based. Not game-play based.

    From my perspective -- the class mainly serves to separate Asian-inspired lore and weapons from European inspired lore. In modern times -- I think we could just integrate the two across class boundaries, and let people flavor their character how they want.
     



  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 5,085
    What we call "monk" should be more precisely called "martial artist", but "monk" has stuck and is besides a lot shorter.


    And I guess I have the belief that armored knights tended to perform much better on the battle field than unarmored warriors...especially If they tried to use fists.
    Well ... duh !

    If it was otherwise, the warrior that trains every day since early childhood, which is what we call a "knight", wouldnt have bothered to wear armor, now, would they ?

    I repeat: the reason martial arts is so big in Japan and China is simply because in those areas iron is rare and thus valueable. Thus even a "fully armored knight" in Japan still wasnt wearing iron armor, but some kind of leather armor.

    Good luck doing much damage on a full late mediveal times / renaissance field plate armor with nothing but bare fists. Even regular swords dont do much on those anymore, thats why weapons like the warhammer or the greatsword became so popular in the late mediveal times.


    That doesnt matter for a game though. All that matters is that the game is challenging and fun.

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