Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Future MMORPGs: Do we really need a Monk class?

Monks are based on the Shaolin warrior monks of China...Also known as Shaolin warriors. Due to various Confucian and Buddhist ideals, they learned to fight with blunt weapons and fists instead of swords and pikes. Likewise, armor and shields never caught on in a land with few pikes or swords.

But they were basically just fighters like any other warrior in any other region. They just had a unique culture that emphasized the blunt/bare weapon loophole. If you beat someone to death with a stick -- its OK because a stick clearly wasn't intended to kill them...yea it was a pretty dumb argument-- but it was the middle ages when this got started.

Basically from a lore perspective -- unless we are going to add a dozen specific Asian classes -- it would make more sense just to let warriors be Asian and use Asian weapons. They do this in most games even EQ -- Katanas etc. Just add in bow staffs and katas or whatever.

Fists don't make sense evidenced by the monks getting their ass kicked by real armies when they tried that (Mongols). It only worked during assassination operations or against other unarmed/unarmored opponents. Which leads me to the fundamental problem with Monks as a concept:

Their warrior/rogue hybrids. These two classes combined are hard to balance. They tend to be overpowered tanky - rogues like classic EQ. They may also be rogue clones that basically amounts to Asian-inspired rogues. Perhaps they could be warrior-clones -- kind of like warriors only Asian....

They don't really have a place from a game play perspective. Vanguards idea of 4 different humans based on African, Asian, Northern and Middle-Eastern -- was a good idea. That way if you really want to be something like a monk lore wise -- just be an Asian rogue or warrior.

We don't need these kinds of ethnically-specific classes these days. I realize this post will get a lot of hate -- but i occasionally try to think outside the box.

«1345

Comments

  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    If they fit in or not depends on the skills they have in game.  Monks are religious and should be granted powers from the deities they worship, just like Paladins.  I like the Monk class in WoW because you can pick different races and they have interesting skill-sets.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • JurisDictumJurisDictum Member UncommonPosts: 31
    Keep in mind I have a minimalist class perspective. I think classes should be relatively broad and not too specific and specialized. If you're one of those people that like 50 different classes -- maybe monk makes more sense.

    I think the monk-inspired  lore could be split over a few different classes and regions on the map -- rather than compiled into a specific class. I don't to see this kind of flavor out of MMOs by any means...just less restricted to one class.

  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    I wouldn't mind seeing it be something more "discoverable".  It could easily just be an evolution of the Warrior class.  Allow Warriors to discover or acquire Monk skills/disciplines throughout the world.  A form of specialization, if you will.

    I'm not sure how their skill systems is set up, so I don't know if they have certain skills that require certain weapon loadouts or not.

    Lore-wise, if they are race-locking classes anyway, then I think they should perhaps lock monk to be Skar only, or something,  It sort of makes sense for them as vicious, "by any means" warriors.

    Personally, I prefer less rigid classes and more specializations.  I'd like to see a base Warrior class that can evolve into a Rogue or Monk or whatever.
    Frankly, it adds something to the game to have to discover and achieve those types of specializations.  Plus, early on, classes like Rogues typically just start as weak Warriors anyway.

    But, I'm pretty sure they are past that point in their designs, and have no intention of un-solidifying their classes.  So, I guess it's really a moot point.
  • TyranusPrimeTyranusPrime Member UncommonPosts: 306
    Martial fighters are quite a bit different than your average armor-clad warrior.. While our own world most often depicts such fist-and-foot users as predominately asian-inspired, hand-to-hand martial arts can take on many different cultural forms..

    Balancing hand-to-hand combat can be tricky in games, until you understand the one great equalizing element.. All weapons kill.. Sword, Axe, Mace, Fist.. The type of damage means very little in the grand scope of things.. What has to be emphasized is the manner in which such damage is delivered..

    In your example, Monks fared poorly against Mongol invaders.. This is accurate.. Standing up to horse-riding, bow-using, full-tilt charging raiders with just your fists is tantamount to suicide.. Now, change the situation.. Dismount the rider.. Now its fist to sword.. Still favors the raider, due mostly to weapon reach.. Change the situation further.. The Monk is trained to evade and dodge melee attacks.. To step inward and block swings at the wrist.. Now the match is even.. Change it further.. The monk is like your warrior/rogue.. He chooses stealth and precise strikes at opportune times.. The raider caught unaware is at a great disadvantage.. We haven't even brought monk-weapons into the scenario yet..

    Monks (or whatever use of Martial fighter you wish to include) can serve as a distinct class all their own.. They must use their skills in ways completely different from tanks.. I believe the tank-y use of Monks in games like WoW and EQ2 has been a disservice to the manner in which the class should be presented..

    Anyway.. This is my opinion on the matter..

    ..because we're gamers, damn it!! - William Massachusetts (Log Horizon)

  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
     I believe the tank-y use of Monks in games like WoW and EQ2 has been a disservice to the manner in which the class should be presented..
    Man, I couldn't agree more with that.  The guy who is practically naked face-tanking a monster with 6-foot, razor-sharp claws just makes no sense.

    I could see it being more sensible in an action game.  In that scenario, you would be manually dodging/blocking(with your staff or whatever), and if you took a hit on that unarmored body, you'd get wrecked.  That would be appropriate.

    To be honest, though, I see Monk as a fairly out of place class in a tab-target, auto-attack game, in general.  They just come off as entirely cheesy in typical MMOs, what with the auto-dodging, auto-blocking, impenetrable defenses they seem to end up with.

    I think if they are playing a part in a game like this, then they should be one of the squishiest classes around(one step above a wizard), rather than the polar opposite we always end up with.  Maybe just giving them really tiny health pools would be a good start.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,276
    No matter their inspiration, monks are warrior monks who specialize in martial arts.

    European mediveal ages also knew martial arts. It was just less common and less developed, because metal was much easier and cheaper to get in Europe than in Japan. But otherwise theres nothing specifically asian about martial arts. The idea is universally known all over the world.

    I think the main issue with a monk class in games is that nobody knows what they are supposed to be and every game finds a different answer to this question.

    Sometimes they are healers (Guild Wars, Vanguard Disciple), sometimes they are tanks (Vanguard Drunken Monk Subclass), sometimes they are magekillers (DnD3), sometimes they are damage dealers (Vanguard Dragon Monk Subclass, Lineage 2 Tyrant), sometimes they are something else (original Vanguard Harmonious Monk subclass: debuffer; this subclass got dropped later).

    All in all I think Monks should be something of their own, but fall in the general class of physical damage dealers. They arent tanks and they arent healers and they're certainly not spellcasters either, even if they are natural allies of clerics and might have some magiclike abilities. They are turning their body into a weapon and they are especially skilled weapon users, though specialized into weapons with a certain finesse, such as swords.

    I would also love to see it if Monks, in Pantheon, would get to wear monk robes, instead of medium armor.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,438
    The whole point of monk package is the focus (and mastering) of unarmed combat - which no other class does near better. To support such package magic effects are added as supportive mechanics - inspired by the chi culture and religious background - regardless the culture it gets it from.

    If they fit such thing there of course it will be unique compared to other classes.

    You don't need to split them based on culture - that's what your imagination and the overall lore stands for.

    sometimes they are magekillers (DnD3),
    Monks since 3.0 can be anything. Monks can even nullify warriors.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,276
    D&D3 monks have been magekillers.

    They couldnt be tanks because they only got as many hitpoints as cleric (8 per level plus CON bonus) and couldnt reach high AC. They got however fast natural movement, exceptional evasion, later quite a bit of high magic resistance, at level 20 or so even immunity to non-magic weapons, and a higher number of attacks but at a low base bonus.

    In other words, they got optimized to fight mages, specifically. High number of attacks at relatively low damage = high chance to disrupt the mage. Low attack bonus = hard time to hit stuff, but mages are easy to hit. Fast movement = can get to the mage quickly. High evasion and later even magic resistance = can take on quite a number of spells with little or no damage.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • RusqueRusque Member RarePosts: 2,783
    Are we talking about games where some classes shoot fireballs out of their butts? If so, then sure, Monks make total sense.

    If I can suspend disbelief and fight a 3 story dragon with a 3 foot long sword, then I can also suspend disbelief and imagine a person being able to punch really hard.
  • NycteliosNyctelios Member EpicPosts: 3,438
    D&D3 monks have been magekillers.

    They couldnt be tanks because they only got as many hitpoints as cleric (8 per level plus CON bonus) and couldnt reach high AC. They got however fast natural movement, exceptional evasion, later quite a bit of high magic resistance, at level 20 or so even immunity to non-magic weapons, and a higher number of attacks but at a low base bonus.

    In other words, they got optimized to fight mages, specifically. High number of attacks at relatively low damage = high chance to disrupt the mage. Low attack bonus = hard time to hit stuff, but mages are easy to hit. Fast movement = can get to the mage quickly. High evasion and later even magic resistance = can take on quite a number of spells with little or no damage.

    Your interpretation of tank is twisted by mmorpg holy trinity mentality.

    Nobody is forcing the monster to attack a single target and not look away.

    In any experienced RPG campaign there is no agro, the enemy, if it has int score higher than 6, will stop mindlessly attacking what is in front of it. And let's not start with high int score enemies.

    Monks are great tanks because of their disruption abilities and mobility... and by the fact that, from all the classes that the enemy "kills first" the monk is the most durable one.

    RPG is more than BBA v CA and Hitpoints, you are missing the complexity of certain spells and abilities - and the tests to resist it.... You are playing it as a boardgame - which doesn't surprises me.
    Steam ID Discord ID: Night # 6102 - GoG ID - 

    "There is a fine line between consideration and hesitation. The former is wisdom, the latter is fear." Izaro Phrecius, Holy Emperor of the Eternal Empire, Last of Royal Phrecius Family.
  • XodicXodic Member EpicPosts: 986
    Monks are based on the Shaolin warrior monks of China...Also known as Shaolin warriors. Due to various Confucian and Buddhist ideals, they learned to fight with blunt weapons and fists instead of swords and pikes. Likewise, armor and shields never caught on in a land with few pikes or swords.

    But they were basically just fighters like any other warrior in any other region. They just had a unique culture that emphasized the blunt/bare weapon loophole. If you beat someone to death with a stick -- its OK because a stick clearly wasn't intended to kill them...yea it was a pretty dumb argument-- but it was the middle ages when this got started.

    Basically from a lore perspective -- unless we are going to add a dozen specific Asian classes -- it would make more sense just to let warriors be Asian and use Asian weapons. They do this in most games even EQ -- Katanas etc. Just add in bow staffs and katas or whatever.

    Fists don't make sense evidenced by the monks getting their ass kicked by real armies when they tried that (Mongols). It only worked during assassination operations or against other unarmed/unarmored opponents. Which leads me to the fundamental problem with Monks as a concept:

    Their warrior/rogue hybrids. These two classes combined are hard to balance. They tend to be overpowered tanky - rogues like classic EQ. They may also be rogue clones that basically amounts to Asian-inspired rogues. Perhaps they could be warrior-clones -- kind of like warriors only Asian....

    They don't really have a place from a game play perspective. Vanguards idea of 4 different humans based on African, Asian, Northern and Middle-Eastern -- was a good idea. That way if you really want to be something like a monk lore wise -- just be an Asian rogue or warrior.

    We don't need these kinds of ethnically-specific classes these days. I realize this post will get a lot of hate -- but i occasionally try to think outside the box.

    You're trying to merge fiction and non-fiction to make sense of fantasy?
  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    edited March 2017
    Monks are based on the Shaolin warrior monks of China...Also known as Shaolin warriors. Due to various Confucian and Buddhist ideals, they learned to fight with blunt weapons and fists instead of swords and pikes. Likewise, armor and shields never caught on in a land with few pikes or swords.

    But they were basically just fighters like any other warrior in any other region. They just had a unique culture that emphasized the blunt/bare weapon loophole. If you beat someone to death with a stick -- its OK because a stick clearly wasn't intended to kill them...yea it was a pretty dumb argument-- but it was the middle ages when this got started.

    Basically from a lore perspective -- unless we are going to add a dozen specific Asian classes -- it would make more sense just to let warriors be Asian and use Asian weapons. They do this in most games even EQ -- Katanas etc. Just add in bow staffs and katas or whatever.

    Fists don't make sense evidenced by the monks getting their ass kicked by real armies when they tried that (Mongols). It only worked during assassination operations or against other unarmed/unarmored opponents. Which leads me to the fundamental problem with Monks as a concept:

    Their warrior/rogue hybrids. These two classes combined are hard to balance. They tend to be overpowered tanky - rogues like classic EQ. They may also be rogue clones that basically amounts to Asian-inspired rogues. Perhaps they could be warrior-clones -- kind of like warriors only Asian....

    They don't really have a place from a game play perspective. Vanguards idea of 4 different humans based on African, Asian, Northern and Middle-Eastern -- was a good idea. That way if you really want to be something like a monk lore wise -- just be an Asian rogue or warrior.

    We don't need these kinds of ethnically-specific classes these days. I realize this post will get a lot of hate -- but i occasionally try to think outside the box.

    I think the monk archetype (as per its function pulling, feign death, OTing, etc) is necessary; however, I think you have a valid point in the lore sense. This is the same reason they changed the "Crusader" name to "Paladin." Crusader has too many religious connotations/obfuscations. Change monk to "pugilist" for instance. Interesting observation.
  • beebop500beebop500 Member UncommonPosts: 217
    In my experience, Monks have typically been a rather poorly done class.  Sure, there's all kinds of fantasy and fiction involving them (non-gaming stuff) that is usually good, but I have played a few Monks over my gaming career and been unimpressed with virtually all of them.  I think ideally they are something of a hybrid melee class, generally a good damage dealer that can also heal/buff, essentially helping its own survivability and also that of its allies and fellow group members.

    Unfortunately, I don't think this true sort of hybrid has ever been realized fully in games.  I remember playing a Monk in FF XIV:ARR and thinking it was probably one of the worst classes I had ever seen; one woefully ineffective heal, no group support, nothing.  Now, that is partially a function of that game itself, but even D3's Monks have been honestly terrible for the entire life of the game (well, most of it) even though they do have some heal and support options.

    D&D has probably shown me the best Monks I've seen, but we are talking tabletop there, a system that is not limited by too few skills (ARR) or awful developers (D3).  IMO, part of the problem with this class, and some others, is the overall lack of imagination that has plagued MMO gaming for years now.  It has the potential to be an interesting and complex class to play for those who have the skill to do so, but at this point where gamers are little more than consumption machines, I doubt we will ever see anything truly different or complex.
    "We are all as God made us, and many of us much worse." - Don Quixote
  • TulerezzerTulerezzer Member UncommonPosts: 15
    I can't wait to roll a Monk in Pantheon. Monk will probably be the first character I play.
    I tend not to try and rationalize minute details from fantasy based games based on real life expectations. I don't expect a Pantheon Monk will be exactly like an EQ Monk, a WoW Monk, a D&D Monk or a real life Monk from any time frame. Similarly, I don't expect a Pantheon Wizard to do the same things that real life Wizards do. See what I did there?
  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Member UncommonPosts: 326
    No matter their inspiration, monks are warrior monks who specialize in martial arts.

    European mediveal ages also knew martial arts. It was just less common and less developed, because metal was much easier and cheaper to get in Europe than in Japan. But otherwise theres nothing specifically asian about martial arts. The idea is universally known all over the world.

    To elaborate a bit:
    Martial Arts or Wrestling, was actually very well developed in Europe in the middle ages. Wrestling was integral to any Weapon Master's Curriculum, especially if you were going to be armored. Hell, wrestling was even a practiced sport back then.

  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    I personally really enjoy monks. As some have said, they don't have to be purely physical fighters. In the video game realm, they are imbued with supernatural strength and able to do things without weapons that rival that of classes wielding swords.

    I do agree that they really shouldn't be tanks, but in EQ they were originally tanks because of their evasion. The massive boost to AC never made sense though. If monks are able to tank at all in Pantheon, I hope they keep their armor value realistic, and when they get hit wearing cloth or leather, it hurts.

    Also, feign death. Need I say more?


  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 8,839
    Teras Kasi in SWG was a fun monk class to play.  Loved the skill trees you had to master.  Originally meant to beat Jedi.  Wish SWTOR would pick them up.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • jmcdermottukjmcdermottuk Member RarePosts: 1,567
    Having a minimalist perspective for classes doesn't match Pantheon's perspective. As with Brad's other MMO's he likes a wide diversity of classes that have very specific roles and skills. While you may not agree with that approach, that's the one Pantheon has adopted.

    I might just as easily ask do we need Shaman, Bards, Druids, Clerics or any other class I single out for being unsuitable. Not that I think that, but it's just as arbitrary as saying Monks don't belong.

    For me personally, Monk will probably be my go to class for my first character. Monks are awesome.
  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    edited March 2017

    I think current times has done a disservice to celebrating diversity because it tends to see any focus on differences as negative rather than lauding it for adding vibrance to the world.

    There are many MMO classes sourced from racial/ethnic groups: Paladins, Wizards, Bards, Sorcerers, Monks, Druids, Berserkers, Shamans. Pretty much all but the "core four." No matter the origin I think having a diverse set of identities and gameplay roles is a fantastic thing.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,257
    I've seen Monk variant classes done in a lot of games and they don't always take on the Asian styles. The also vary in base class origin - they're not all warrior/rogue hybrids.

    Some games have monk variants that aren't related to any particular region of the world at all. Aion's Chanter and The Secret World's Fist weapons are two examples. GW2 also has the Daredevil and FFXIV has the Monk as well, both of which those game's managed to fit into their lore without introducing Asian themes.

    Aion's Chanter also evolved out of a Priest base class and wore chain mail armor. Continent of the Ninth Seal has a Shaman class that is more of a Priest/Mage hybrid, who has numerous advanced classes, one of which is a Taoist which uses the Staff in melee combat and it becomes a physical/magical melee hybrid. But then in GW2 and FFXIV those classes are rogue and warrior classes respectively.

    So point being, there are a lot of ways to do a melee staff or fist weapon class. It doesn't have to be Asian themed or have Asian lore, nor does it have to be a Rogue or Warrior styled class. It can also be a Priest/Cleric style, or a Mage, or any mix of those. There are a lot of ways to do the same basic idea and developers can make it fit into their game with ease.
  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    edited March 2017
    Monks were always offtanks not tanks. Seeing as they pull and take lots of damage in the process, it always made sense to me they got an AC boost. Without him you had SKs pulling and FD failing or warriors raw-dogging 4 packs (which is what happened if you didn't have a chanter). They also didn't have endurance issues like rogues in raid situations and featured different combat mechanics/disciplines to feel fresher than other melee classes. Cool class like the Beastlord; uncommonly played but 100% necessary to maximize a group/raid. No doubt it'll be a fun, complete class in Pantheon
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,276
    Nyctelios said:
    Your interpretation of tank is twisted by mmorpg holy trinity mentality.
    Dude, there isnt even a trinity in D&D.


    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    In my case I think that there would be other classes better fitting the lore they could have added instead. For instance does it seems like there wont be a bard class, something far more in line with western fantasy then monks.

    I wont complain that there is another class of course, just that there are other classes they could added before it.

    Monks came into MMOs because eastern martial arts movies were rather popular in the 90s but at the moment those movies lost a lot of popularity since then. 
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,276
    There will be a Bard and a Necromancer class, just possibly not at release.

    And I think they have already a pretty good collection of classes, even without Bard and Necromancer.

    Three variants of heavy amor user, three variants of aggressive spellcaster, three variants of healing spellcaster (assuming Druid is a healer class, which isnt clear yet), and Rogue, Ranger, Monk.

    And they dont have Samurai and they dont have Ninja.

    As I pointed out before - Monk on the other hand isnt actually specifically asian - martial arts are known around the world. Also in Europe.

    Please set a sig so I can read your posting even if somebody "agreed" etc with it. Thanks.
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,383
    When you talk about monks it brings me back to Everquest when I saw one in West Freeport fighting and I was so taken with the animations. I know scoff all you want about Everquest and the fact it was dated but man it was a real treat watching a monk fight. So of course I rolled one and the severe limitations to weight took the bloom right off but there's no denying that there is a magical attraction to Martial Arts we all share and even if it makes little sense sometimes in terms of the mechanics like ranged combat but still its magical just like watching Yoda fight .

    Anything like sword fighting or fist fights make little sense when you have guns and tanks but still it is magic and will be sorely missed if taken away.
    image
Sign In or Register to comment.