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Guild Wars 2 - A Struggle for Balance - MMORPG.com

SBFordSBFord Former Associate EditorMember LegendaryPosts: 33,129
edited February 2017 in News & Features Discussion

imageGuild Wars 2 - A Struggle for Balance - MMORPG.com

This week, Guild Wars 2 has seen one of the biggest balance changes in recent history. Although not quite on the same level as some predicted, the patch came with some pretty significant changes to many of the classes, with both meta and non meta build being shifted around. The implications of the patch are fairly far reaching, with a fairly shake up to the high end raiding meta composition and also some significant buffs that are having a devastating impact in the World versus World scene.

Read the full story here



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Comments

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Well, this game has 3 play styles - PvP, PvE and WvW. A.net only seems to be interested in PvE and they are losing the players in the other areas. They are doing irreparable damage to their game. The problem is they don't understand that.


  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,173
    Not a bad run down.  As I spend a lot of time in PvP, a lot of the changes didn't make sense to me.  The problem with Condition Engineer is primarily survivability, and that's due to condition necros and condition transfer.  

    If you hard spec for conditions without emphasis on stealth and movement you become a target for warriors and thieves.  If you focus more on condition cleanse you'll lose some mobility.. so the condition engineer is the perfect example of a class in PvP that can't beat every comp, but what it can beat, it can do it extremely fast.

    Guardians damage boost didn't make sense as trap guardians already had stellar damage and survivability, with burn guardians having the second best burst condition build in PvP.  By the second tic you're usually down half your life.

    Elementalist didn't need a damage boost, the changes are okay, what they did need is a sustain boost.  They really didn't have any inherent damage mitigation built in for their class.  For example the mesmer will always have that evade.  Necro will always have Death Shroud.  Those are the two other light armored classes and both have inherent sustain built into the class, regardless of weapons or trait specs.  Elementalist has to specifically spec for sustain, which gives you less options on how to play the class.



  • KatrizKatriz Member UncommonPosts: 24
    edited February 2017
    "What was already a problem skill is getting even further out of control, and many classes are focusing now on condition cleansing abilities in WvW to counter this."

    No, you can not counter it with condi cleanse if you insta die. Anet dev saying that blasting light fields is a counter to epidemic is total bs and shows how disconnected they are from WvW.

    Look at this goodluck cleansing 40 stacks of confusion:

    or cleansing 40 stacks of poison and 60 bleeding when you insta die:
    http://i.imgur.com/AxoQEVR.gif

    People in WvW know what is condition, most of the classes have been using skills to cleanse them from the start of the game, but this skill is just broken in WvW.
  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Cleanses are on cool down and condi's can just be stacked on again. Also cleanses only take one or 2 more condis off, NOT ALL OF THEM. Condi's are out of proportion in GW2 and too powerful. If we had some way to resist them besides the buff resistance and condi clears, the game would have more balance. Something needs to be done.


  • ShinamiShinami Member UncommonPosts: 825
    I hate the patch.
    I main Elly, and sure.... there is burst damage and what not..

    The reason I stopped playing Guild Wars 2 along with many good Ellys was due to Anet always NERFING Elly to the point that this Mage Class is spec'ed for healing. The game is supposed to not rely on the holy trinity and while I ran support builds, nuking builds, and healing builds in my day..

    I grew tired of being given the short end of the stick in WvW.
    I hated the fact that if we spent 1000+ hours training elly and we made a single mistake against a newb class, our chances of death became extremely higher with our paper-thin armor. Only the best who know what they are doing could spec DPS on elly and get away with it with some courage in WvW.

    However, the nitty gritty of ELLY is that
    Every other class can make a mistake and not suffer.
    Elly makes a mistake and it dies..

    and when we win from 1000 - 5000+ hours of working on learning to play the class and mastering its skills, that community of players complains to no end in the forums. People forget elly is a class, and not a third-rate citizen, but its either we spec in one of the two ways people ask us to, or any other class is more viable.

    When I left the game, Fresh Air Builds were popular.
    I log back in before returning to the game for a short time after issues kept me out of the game for a year and it was still most Ellys running Fresh Air bursting builds. Then I Checked the forums, players are still quoting and creating the same two to three builds with minor differences.

    As usual...
    Make Warrior Stronger with its large health pool
    Think about Mesmer and Guardian... Anet's lovechild.
    ...and shaft elementalist to pieces.

    ...and don't get me started on elementalist performance during sPvP outside the one build everyone wants them for...
  • ScarranScarran Member UncommonPosts: 102
    edited February 2017
    The main reason I left GW2 was due to the inablities of there so called "balance" team to actually balance things out. My main was a Necro and I got sick and tired of being kicked out of end game PvE content because of my classes inabilities to perform. Having waited for a long while for that magical change I came to the conclusion that things were never going to change as long as the current "balance" team remained so I left.

    Why am I not surprised that after many months of me not playing that Necro is still getting kicked in end game PvE. When I left Warrior was the most complete and pretty much overpowered class in the game and still many months later not alot appears to have changed. The "balance" team always seem to be focusing on the wrong area or buffing the wrong classes and it was apparent if you weren't one of a select few classes who always appear to be at the top of the food chain you were pretty much SOL.
  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Scarran said:
    The main reason I left GW2 was due to the inablities of there so called "balance" team to actually balance things out. My main was a Necro and I got sick and tired of being kicked out of end game PvE content because of my classes inabilities to perform. Having waited for a long while for that magical change I came to the conclusion that things were never going to change as long as the current "balance" team remained so I left.

    Why am I not surprised that after many months of me not playing that Necro is still getting kicked in end game PvE. When I left Warrior was the most complete and pretty much overpowered class in the game and still many months later not alot appears to have changed. The "balance" team always seem to be focusing on the wrong area or buffing the wrong classes and it was apparent if you weren't one of a select few classes who always appear to be at the top of the food chain you were pretty much SOL.
    Not true.The necro is the best class to load up condi's from. 

    This is why I don't like RAIDS in games, they bring out the elitists snobs and they usually are the worst of the worst.


  • meonthissitemeonthissite Member UncommonPosts: 917
    It should be known that in the beta we asked for Engineer to keep it's explosive usefulness. They changed the class nerfing it to the ground in the explosive line just after 4 months into the title. It caused the class to also have the same troubles that Necros are having now in raids not being picked for dungeons etc.

    It took them years to finally buff it. That's how little they really listen to their playerbase.
  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363


    It should be known that in the beta we asked for Engineer to keep it's explosive usefulness. They changed the class nerfing it to the ground in the explosive line just after 4 months into the title. It caused the class to also have the same troubles that Necros are having now in raids not being picked for dungeons etc.



    It took them years to finally buff it. That's how little they really listen to their playerbase.



    Necros aren't having issues, it is the people who mostly run with RAIDS not being able to adjust to the new norm of the game. For Raids, if it is not on Metabattle, it is not used - poor attitude.


  • MagikarpsGhostMagikarpsGhost Member RarePosts: 689
    edited March 2017

    botrytis said:

    Well, this game has 3 play styles - PvP, PvE and WvW. A.net only seems to be interested in PvE and they are losing the players in the other areas. They are doing irreparable damage to their game. The problem is they don't understand that.



    interested in pve? they keep butchering classes because people complain about them in pvp.wvw. For once a company that is getting the hint not to listen to pvp focused people who do not know what they are speaking about. I know some hard core pvpers who find ways around classes being strong, but majority just complain when they die once. MOST of the past nerfs has been due to pvp wvw, this one seems to be anet just not sure what to do anymore.
    botrytis said:


    It should be known that in the beta we asked for Engineer to keep it's explosive usefulness. They changed the class nerfing it to the ground in the explosive line just after 4 months into the title. It caused the class to also have the same troubles that Necros are having now in raids not being picked for dungeons etc.



    It took them years to finally buff it. That's how little they really listen to their playerbase.



    Necros aren't having issues, it is the people who mostly run with RAIDS not being able to adjust to the new norm of the game. For Raids, if it is not on Metabattle, it is not used - poor attitude.
    this here, honestly the whole "meta" thing is a load of shit. just because something works well for one person does not mean EVERYONE will have the same outcome. Build your own thing and people will eventually learn to pull their head out of their asses and think for them selves for once.

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  • MagikarpsGhostMagikarpsGhost Member RarePosts: 689
    edited March 2017
    delete

    free 7 day sub and unlocks for swtor new accounts and 90+ day inactive subs click here to get it!

    Click here for trove referral, bonuses to both!

  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363

    jircris said:



    botrytis said:


    Well, this game has 3 play styles - PvP, PvE and WvW. A.net only seems to be interested in PvE and they are losing the players in the other areas. They are doing irreparable damage to their game. The problem is they don't understand that.






    interested in pve? they keep butchering classes because people complain about them in pvp.wvw. For once a company that is getting the hint not to listen to pvp focused people who do not know what they are speaking about. I know some hard core pvpers who find ways around classes being strong, but majority just complain when they die once. MOST of the past nerfs has been due to pvp wvw, this one seems to be anet just not sure what to do anymore.


    botrytis said:





    It should be known that in the beta we asked for Engineer to keep it's explosive usefulness. They changed the class nerfing it to the ground in the explosive line just after 4 months into the title. It caused the class to also have the same troubles that Necros are having now in raids not being picked for dungeons etc.





    It took them years to finally buff it. That's how little they really listen to their playerbase.






    Necros aren't having issues, it is the people who mostly run with RAIDS not being able to adjust to the new norm of the game. For Raids, if it is not on Metabattle, it is not used - poor attitude.



    this here, honestly the whole "meta" thing is a load of shit. just because something works well for one person does not mean EVERYONE will have the same outcome. Build your own thing and people will eventually learn to pull their head out of their asses and think for them selves for once.



    I totally agree with the 2nd part, first part, not so much. The reason being, PvP and PvE were separated. Many skills in PvP work differently than they do in PvE. Can't blame that , sorry.

    Can't blame WvW as it is the most ignored part of the game. In fact, when they decided to test the Desert Borderland, they asked PvE guilds to play on it, not WvW Guilds. That is how interested in WvW A.Net is. WvW players wanted a condi nerf, not a condi boondoggle that they just put out. I mean a necro can put out 45 stacks of bleeding in 2 seconds and that is ridiculous.


  • DrawocDrawoc Member UncommonPosts: 51

    Shinami said:

    I hate the patch.

    I main Elly, and sure.... there is burst damage and what not..



    The reason I stopped playing Guild Wars 2 along with many good Ellys was due to Anet always NERFING Elly to the point that this Mage Class is spec'ed for healing. The game is supposed to not rely on the holy trinity and while I ran support builds, nuking builds, and healing builds in my day..



    I grew tired of being given the short end of the stick in WvW.

    I hated the fact that if we spent 1000+ hours training elly and we made a single mistake against a newb class, our chances of death became extremely higher with our paper-thin armor. Only the best who know what they are doing could spec DPS on elly and get away with it with some courage in WvW.



    However, the nitty gritty of ELLY is that

    Every other class can make a mistake and not suffer.

    Elly makes a mistake and it dies..



    and when we win from 1000 - 5000+ hours of working on learning to play the class and mastering its skills, that community of players complains to no end in the forums. People forget elly is a class, and not a third-rate citizen, but its either we spec in one of the two ways people ask us to, or any other class is more viable.



    When I left the game, Fresh Air Builds were popular.

    I log back in before returning to the game for a short time after issues kept me out of the game for a year and it was still most Ellys running Fresh Air bursting builds. Then I Checked the forums, players are still quoting and creating the same two to three builds with minor differences.



    As usual...

    Make Warrior Stronger with its large health pool

    Think about Mesmer and Guardian... Anet's lovechild.

    ...and shaft elementalist to pieces.



    ...and don't get me started on elementalist performance during sPvP outside the one build everyone wants them for...



    Play another class...there is more than one.
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,173
    Drawoc said:

    Shinami said:




    Play another class...there is more than one.
    That's not the point.  Some people put a lot of work into their classes, getting legendary items, putting effort into getting agony resistance and things that take a lot of time and money.

    With a single "balance" patch they can make a class that had few playable builds even less worthwhile.  

    The fact of the matter is.. every class should have multiple areas where they are useful.  That was the point in the first place... that each class would have multiple viable alternatives.  That isn't the case.. and after several years of working with a particular class,  having it amount to nothing because of "balance" is a problem that never should have been.



  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    Drawoc said:

    Shinami said:




    Play another class...there is more than one.
    That's not the point.  Some people put a lot of work into their classes, getting legendary items, putting effort into getting agony resistance and things that take a lot of time and money.

    With a single "balance" patch they can make a class that had few playable builds even less worthwhile.  

    The fact of the matter is.. every class should have multiple areas where they are useful.  That was the point in the first place... that each class would have multiple viable alternatives.  That isn't the case.. and after several years of working with a particular class,  having it amount to nothing because of "balance" is a problem that never should have been.

    Legendaries are no better than Ascended as they are just for looks. People who don't play fractals, do not need Agony Resistance, as that is the only place you need it.


    There are multiple builds that are useful but people go for the Least Work Build and hence why they go to Metabattle. It was the same problem in GW1.


  • freegamesfreegames Member UncommonPosts: 240
    They should just change more skills for pve, pvp, and wvw instead of just focusing too much on raids. What percentage of the player base just plays raids anyways.
  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    freegames said:
    They should just change more skills for pve, pvp, and wvw instead of just focusing too much on raids. What percentage of the player base just plays raids anyways.

    RAIDS are PvE and that is where the power creep is needed, UNFORTUNATELY.

    WvW will be ignored and that game mode will die. It is sad that A.Net can't get it's head out of the sand.


  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    I'm so bad at this game.   Makes me sad.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    edited March 2017
    Drawoc said:

    Shinami said:




    Play another class...there is more than one.
    That's not the point.  Some people put a lot of work into their classes, getting legendary items, putting effort into getting agony resistance and things that take a lot of time and money.

    With a single "balance" patch they can make a class that had few playable builds even less worthwhile.  

    The fact of the matter is.. every class should have multiple areas where they are useful.  That was the point in the first place... that each class would have multiple viable alternatives.  That isn't the case.. and after several years of working with a particular class,  having it amount to nothing because of "balance" is a problem that never should have been.
    Games have been really bad at balance issues for as long as I can remember.  A long time ago I learned the best way to play is to level several classes so when the nerf bat hit I could just play another until it got buffed again.  

    Sometimes it feels like busy work to do rolling buffs and nerfs.  Just so they have something to report is being worked on at the weekly meetings.  And why some games have bugs that never get touched and have been around since launch is beyond my understanding.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • beebop500beebop500 Member UncommonPosts: 217
    None of you guys seriously expected this directionless mess to have any real "balance", did you??
    "We are all as God made us, and many of us much worse." - Don Quixote
  • ScarranScarran Member UncommonPosts: 102
    edited March 2017

    botrytis said:


    Scarran said:

    The main reason I left GW2 was due to the inablities of there so called "balance" team to actually balance things out. My main was a Necro and I got sick and tired of being kicked out of end game PvE content because of my classes inabilities to perform. Having waited for a long while for that magical change I came to the conclusion that things were never going to change as long as the current "balance" team remained so I left.



    Why am I not surprised that after many months of me not playing that Necro is still getting kicked in end game PvE. When I left Warrior was the most complete and pretty much overpowered class in the game and still many months later not alot appears to have changed. The "balance" team always seem to be focusing on the wrong area or buffing the wrong classes and it was apparent if you weren't one of a select few classes who always appear to be at the top of the food chain you were pretty much SOL.


    Not true.The necro is the best class to load up condi's from. 

    This is why I don't like RAIDS in games, they bring out the elitists snobs and they usually are the worst of the worst.



    If it wasn't true then why do Necro's time and time again get kicked? I do not see this happening with other classes yet Necro for long enough have been constantly getting kicked out of PVE dungeons and now it appears they are getting kicked from raids also. When it is happening for this long and that often then surely it is not just a case that everyone else is wrong?

    Now im not saying that they cannot do the content but there are other classes that can do what the Necro does in group pve content and provide alot more for the team. Necro in WvW is a different thing entirely as they have always been in a really good place but im talking about PVE group content where the Necro has always struggled to find a place.
  • Asch126Asch126 Member RarePosts: 543
    Of course Necromancers get screwed over, AGAIN.
  • maskedweaselmaskedweasel Member LegendaryPosts: 12,173
    botrytis said:
    Drawoc said:

    Shinami said:




    Play another class...there is more than one.
    That's not the point.  Some people put a lot of work into their classes, getting legendary items, putting effort into getting agony resistance and things that take a lot of time and money.

    With a single "balance" patch they can make a class that had few playable builds even less worthwhile.  

    The fact of the matter is.. every class should have multiple areas where they are useful.  That was the point in the first place... that each class would have multiple viable alternatives.  That isn't the case.. and after several years of working with a particular class,  having it amount to nothing because of "balance" is a problem that never should have been.

    Legendaries are no better than Ascended as they are just for looks. People who don't play fractals, do not need Agony Resistance, as that is the only place you need it.


    There are multiple builds that are useful but people go for the Least Work Build and hence why they go to Metabattle. It was the same problem in GW1.
    Again, that isn't the point.

    The only true gear progression is Ascended and Legendary gear.  People that play PvE, and especially fractals, tend to go for one or the other, and neither of them are particularly prevalent.  

    I have every single class maxed out, most of them have several pieces of ascended gear if not whole sets, and I'm working on a 3rd legendary at the moment.  

    I don't care about raids, but do fractals every now and then, but I'm primarily a SPvP player, and was even ranked in the top 50 before HoT released.

    So take that all into consideration. I'm a PvP player, yet I still worked towards legendaries,  and so do a LOT of other primarily PvP focused players.  When you destroy a class one puts time into, with a particular weapon set, with getting the items and gear they want, and to look the way they want,  saying "play another class"  doesn't cut it.

    An as for "multiple builds being useful"  Not really.  You can make a case for variations of the same build... "I use this trait instead and I use this skill"  but in general, the trait lines are built around specific synergies, and even if you'd prefer to use one ability over the next,  most abilities and builds for each class ARE USELESS.  Yes THE MAJORITY of abilities for each class go unused due to poor build synergies.


    And as for Necro,  while it is one of the least played classes at top end PvE it's one of the best PvP classes in general.  It can be a strong class in Power or Condition damage and it has lasting Sustain over many other classes, depending on what you choose. 



  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363

    beebop500 said:

    None of you guys seriously expected this directionless mess to have any real "balance", did you??



    Even though the balance could be better, that is why the complaints, it is still better than 99% of the crap out there. TERA, TSW, SWTOR, WoW, and I could go on are all so imbalanced as to be non-playable.


  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    edited March 2017



    botrytis said:




    Drawoc said:



    Shinami said:







    Play another class...there is more than one.


    That's not the point.  Some people put a lot of work into their classes, getting legendary items, putting effort into getting agony resistance and things that take a lot of time and money.

    With a single "balance" patch they can make a class that had few playable builds even less worthwhile.  

    The fact of the matter is.. every class should have multiple areas where they are useful.  That was the point in the first place... that each class would have multiple viable alternatives.  That isn't the case.. and after several years of working with a particular class,  having it amount to nothing because of "balance" is a problem that never should have been.



    Legendaries are no better than Ascended as they are just for looks. People who don't play fractals, do not need Agony Resistance, as that is the only place you need it.


    There are multiple builds that are useful but people go for the Least Work Build and hence why they go to Metabattle. It was the same problem in GW1.


    Again, that isn't the point.

    The only true gear progression is Ascended and Legendary gear.  People that play PvE, and especially fractals, tend to go for one or the other, and neither of them are particularly prevalent.  

    I have every single class maxed out, most of them have several pieces of ascended gear if not whole sets, and I'm working on a 3rd legendary at the moment.  

    I don't care about raids, but do fractals every now and then, but I'm primarily a SPvP player, and was even ranked in the top 50 before HoT released.

    So take that all into consideration. I'm a PvP player, yet I still worked towards legendaries,  and so do a LOT of other primarily PvP focused players.  When you destroy a class one puts time into, with a particular weapon set, with getting the items and gear they want, and to look the way they want,  saying "play another class"  doesn't cut it.

    An as for "multiple builds being useful"  Not really.  You can make a case for variations of the same build... "I use this trait instead and I use this skill"  but in general, the trait lines are built around specific synergies, and even if you'd prefer to use one ability over the next,  most abilities and builds for each class ARE USELESS.  Yes THE MAJORITY of abilities for each class go unused due to poor build synergies.


    And as for Necro,  while it is one of the least played classes at top end PvE it's one of the best PvP classes in general.  It can be a strong class in Power or Condition damage and it has lasting Sustain over many other classes, depending on what you choose. 



    Neco one of the least played classes in high end PvE? Really? ROFL - YOU REALLY DON'T PLAY THE GAME. I see more necros than any other class out there besides Guards and Warriors and that is playing HIGH END PvE. Please get the blinders off.


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