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  • DistopiaDistopia Member EpicPosts: 21,182
    edited February 2017
    Zuldan1 said:

    It's exhausting to see recurring questions, but the effort you put into your thoughts/reasoning warrant a response. You wouldn't be going in depth about the game if you didn't care or be hopeful about it on some level. Each advancing number is a direct response to each of your thoughts, chronologically.

    1) They've gone into detail - both on stream and in official forums - stating EXACTLY how it is in fact fundamentally different. I'll go into more detail about this in point 2, for your thoughts require answers that largely overlap one another.

    2) you Say "Many players want death penalties, corpse runs and slow travel.  There has been evidence of each of these elements already in the streamed videos.  When is VR planning to remove these boring mechanics from their pre-pre-pre-pre-alpha version?" These are NOT the elements/mechanics people gripe about/found boring about EQ. On the contrary, people WANT the penalties, CRs, and travel. These all add into the risk/reward feeling, which is inevitably the quintessence of what separates Pantheon, EQ, VG from the rest of MMOs. In a nutshell, they add to your immersion via forcing you to respect your environments. The subconscious fear of losing exp, money, and time to go back to your corpse forces you to walk slower, look around, communicate with your party - you end up treating in-game encounters as if you would in real life. It makes you that much more aware of the spells you choose to mem before a fight, what buffs/spells to use to get back to your corpse, it creates a player market for necromancers who can summon corpses, it removes the triviality of running back to your zone for free in ghost form after you die (dying in Wow becomes a repetitive task where your brain just compartmentalizes it as that same invulnerable, pointless waste of time prance back to the zone you died). All of this fear and respect for your environment gives you a feeling of reward when you clear a dungeon or raid that you simply don't feel in other MMOs. It's like beating a game on Easy Mode vs Hard. The dedication, practice, time spent, physical reactions etc required for Hard Mode gives it its value. The old "learn the value of a dollar." When you EARN something difficult, the feeling is special, it can't be replicated any other way and that's what this genre does. This ripple effects in hundreds of ways. You will NOT want to die. So you pay very close attention to good and bad players, group make ups, etc. Everything gets the volume turned up and microscope zoomed in with this kind of game.


    Everything you just described here can lead to one major problem. People not wanting to do things, unless they have a surefire team in place; all with the right gear, right class loadout, etc.... This worked back when because there weren't many options for this type of game.

    It's what players knew, it's what they had become used to. Pantheon will have to be extremely well made to combat this type of prevailing feeling of "it's  not worthy it, unless...." This type of non action can turn away a lot of players in this day and age even MMO vets. It's like the PVP players who won't come out of their safespace until they have a massive zerg, which is sure to overwhelm the enemy. It leads to a stagnant predictable experience. 

    It also leaves semi, as well as new players left with nothing to do once the population levels out and the main body (the inn crowd) is near the top. It can be extremely hard to get into that click once it's set in stone. The elitist types rule this type of experience in the end. Leaving everyone else to fend for the scraps. 


    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson


  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    edited February 2017
    Distopia said:
    Zuldan1 said:

    It's exhausting to see recurring questions, but the effort you put into your thoughts/reasoning warrant a response. You wouldn't be going in depth about the game if you didn't care or be hopeful about it on some level. Each advancing number is a direct response to each of your thoughts, chronologically.

    1) They've gone into detail - both on stream and in official forums - stating EXACTLY how it is in fact fundamentally different. I'll go into more detail about this in point 2, for your thoughts require answers that largely overlap one another.

    2) you Say "Many players want death penalties, corpse runs and slow travel.  There has been evidence of each of these elements already in the streamed videos.  When is VR planning to remove these boring mechanics from their pre-pre-pre-pre-alpha version?" These are NOT the elements/mechanics people gripe about/found boring about EQ. On the contrary, people WANT the penalties, CRs, and travel. These all add into the risk/reward feeling, which is inevitably the quintessence of what separates Pantheon, EQ, VG from the rest of MMOs. In a nutshell, they add to your immersion via forcing you to respect your environments. The subconscious fear of losing exp, money, and time to go back to your corpse forces you to walk slower, look around, communicate with your party - you end up treating in-game encounters as if you would in real life. It makes you that much more aware of the spells you choose to mem before a fight, what buffs/spells to use to get back to your corpse, it creates a player market for necromancers who can summon corpses, it removes the triviality of running back to your zone for free in ghost form after you die (dying in Wow becomes a repetitive task where your brain just compartmentalizes it as that same invulnerable, pointless waste of time prance back to the zone you died). All of this fear and respect for your environment gives you a feeling of reward when you clear a dungeon or raid that you simply don't feel in other MMOs. It's like beating a game on Easy Mode vs Hard. The dedication, practice, time spent, physical reactions etc required for Hard Mode gives it its value. The old "learn the value of a dollar." When you EARN something difficult, the feeling is special, it can't be replicated any other way and that's what this genre does. This ripple effects in hundreds of ways. You will NOT want to die. So you pay very close attention to good and bad players, group make ups, etc. Everything gets the volume turned up and microscope zoomed in with this kind of game.


    Everything you just described here can lead to one major problem. People not wanting to do things, unless they have a surefire team in place; all with the right gear, right class loadout, etc.... This worked back when because there weren't many options for this type of game.

    It's what players knew, it's what they had become used to. Pantheon will have to be extremely well made to combat this type of prevailing feeling of "it's  not worthy it, unless...." This type of non action can turn away a lot of players in this day and age even MMO vets. It's like the PVP players who won't come out of their safespace until they have a massive zerg, which is sure to overwhelm the enemy. It leads to a stagnant predictable experience. 

    It also leaves semi, as well as new players left with nothing to do once the population levels out and the main body (the inn crowd) is near the top. It can be extremely hard to get into that click once it's set in stone. The elitist types rule this type of experience in the end. Leaving everyone else to fend for the scraps. 


    I understand where you're coming from, but things aren't so difficult/depth to the point that it's imbalanced or too hard for people to want to try (this is obviously a huge reason for alpha and beta testing though, to balance such things). Additionally, the amount of zones they plan on having and the sheer size of them; there is going to be a healthy variety of places to go and things to do. It's not like every zone is going to have some harsh weather. There's also a variety of underwater zones they said they'll have, and have even boasted a great combat/physics system for it. Climbing and even rogues using ropes are also a huge part of the game as well, both in and out of dungeons.

    As far as your concern for mid level players/things to do once people have leveled up, they specifically have a system designed where you can temporarily LEVEL DOWN your character to play with friends. They said they are currently balancing out whether it will reload your character at that time or whether it will scale down your current character, but yeah they even went that far. Even more, they are doing one thing Everquest and Vanguard did so well; they put high level zones in/near low level zones, giving high level players reasons to come back, and also for casual players to marvel and give them inspiration to want to reach those levels. One more thing that might excite you is since the level cap is 50 and it takes awhile to level, they're having a major raid in the mid level range around 25-35 they said. That is so huge I can't even tell you. In EQ items and gear are so valuable (you don't just get green /blue/rare items every 2 levels from a quest) that sometimes you'd have the same gear for 10-30 levels depending on if you're farming gold or doing tradeskills to upgrade your equipment. That raid is going to be so successful, and no one else can pull it off but them, because every other game youll go through mid level content so fast its not even worth bothering to group let alone raid to get upgrades. In EQ etc, your upgrades matter, theyre rare, they're hard to get, and they feel so good when you get them or improve upon them.
  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,897
    Zuldan1 said:
    It's exhausting to see recurring questions, but the effort you put into your thoughts/reasoning warrant a response. You wouldn't be going in depth about the game if you didn't care or be hopeful about it on some level. Each advancing number is a direct response to each of your thoughts, chronologically.
    <skip>
    I'm not questioning what they have said.  I have raising the point that what they have said is only a bunch of words, expressing their intent.  This community has seen words before, and the division in the community is centered around belief -- those that believe in the marketing materials, and those who will believe once they've seen these items in code.

    I am interested in Pantheon, yes, but only because I support MMORPG games and wish to see the genre growing.  My hope is that Pantheon does implement something different that truly makes advances over what has come prior.  My primary concern is that VR isn't trying to push the genre forward, and is willing to grasp at past glories.  I fully expect I will try Pantheon, but will bow out of it before the 6 month mark.

    I happen to agree with many posters here that games are not challenging enough.  My disagreement with the majority of posters in the various old-school games threads is that I don't happen to believe the answers to making games more interesting and challenging lies in the past.  I think that there are ways to increase the challenge without invoking old mechanisms rife with time sinks.  Picking over the ideas of the past isn't likely to discover new ways to entertain us.  At some point, it becomes an exercise in archaeology for games, useful for understanding what happened long ago, but not really doing anything new.

    Promised features can vary greatly from delivered features.  Games have had bonuses for weapon type versus armor type before.  A 'progeny' might be implemented as nothing more than giving the new character some bonus items.  Resurrection might still generate frustration in the group due to excessive recovery time.  Everything depends on the implementation.  The marketing language they are already promising can 'fit' a wide variety of specific details and mechanisms.

    I'm still waiting to see when the weather in Pantheon will encourage players to do something other than go outside and fight.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    Mendel said:
    Zuldan1 said:
    It's exhausting to see recurring questions, but the effort you put into your thoughts/reasoning warrant a response. You wouldn't be going in depth about the game if you didn't care or be hopeful about it on some level. Each advancing number is a direct response to each of your thoughts, chronologically.
    <skip>
    I'm not questioning what they have said.  I have raising the point that what they have said is only a bunch of words, expressing their intent.  This community has seen words before, and the division in the community is centered around belief -- those that believe in the marketing materials, and those who will believe once they've seen these items in code.

    I am interested in Pantheon, yes, but only because I support MMORPG games and wish to see the genre growing.  My hope is that Pantheon does implement something different that truly makes advances over what has come prior.  My primary concern is that VR isn't trying to push the genre forward, and is willing to grasp at past glories.  I fully expect I will try Pantheon, but will bow out of it before the 6 month mark.

    I happen to agree with many posters here that games are not challenging enough.  My disagreement with the majority of posters in the various old-school games threads is that I don't happen to believe the answers to making games more interesting and challenging lies in the past.  I think that there are ways to increase the challenge without invoking old mechanisms rife with time sinks.  Picking over the ideas of the past isn't likely to discover new ways to entertain us.  At some point, it becomes an exercise in archaeology for games, useful for understanding what happened long ago, but not really doing anything new.

    Promised features can vary greatly from delivered features.  Games have had bonuses for weapon type versus armor type before.  A 'progeny' might be implemented as nothing more than giving the new character some bonus items.  Resurrection might still generate frustration in the group due to excessive recovery time.  Everything depends on the implementation.  The marketing language they are already promising can 'fit' a wide variety of specific details and mechanisms.

    I'm still waiting to see when the weather in Pantheon will encourage players to do something other than go outside and fight.
    If you weren't questioning/doubting what they said, I honestly have know idea why you explicitly stated several qualities/features about the game that are completely incorrect as a basis for your argument (not being sarcastic). You're still saying people are "picking over ideas of the past" and "invoking old mechanisms with timesinks" but again, those negative aspects people mention are are not coming to Pantheon, and they've gone into detail about how/why, so I'm at a loss. The challenging aspects aren't going to be related to repetitive time sinks. They're integrating brand new systems, using the best aspects of the old, the contemporary, and then some that are completely original to give us something we've never had (we haven't had a "newschool" MMO, with faster paced WoW-esque combat mixed in with the hardcore parts of EQ).

     If you mean you dislike that they are using anything at all from the past, then that's a different argument all-together. Anything in life; car engines, car bodies, phones, operating systems, graphics cards, music, movies, literature, athletes; the best inventors/performers in each of these industries/categories all take the best aspects from the past and combine/improve upon it with the present in some way, whether it's a blue print or a music artist's favorite singer growing up who inspired their style of play mixed with contemporary feels/styles etc. The world has always worked like that it is the recipe for success. They're just trying to doing the same thing here.

    Yes, any company can fall short of their promises, but the difference is how VR has been so intimate with the fanbase and open about the features and what's to come (and are even showing us the new climate system in the next video/stream they're finishing up). Nothing has been empty words so far. the ball is really rolling now, unlike so many other MMOs that failed in the past, behind closed doors unable to tell or give us any updates because of company clauses, with us waiting outside, fingers crossed for months even years (EQ Next), all for nothing.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited February 2017
    Without time sinks, MMOs a) lack a sense of accomplishment, or b) make up for that sense of accomplishment by radically increasing the necessary skill. B alienates players and is contrary to what the MMORPG was originally about: a world where a player could become a hero (or villain), regardless of how normal or even unheroic they were in real life, and despite their real life short-comings. Doesn't mean there should be no challenge, but that should not be the only barrier of entry for MMO character progression. Time is a better, more indiscriminate barrier.

    See Wildstar for the price of raising the skill bar too high.


  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    Dullahan said:
    Without time sinks, MMOs a) lack a sense of accomplishment, or b) make up for that sense of accomplishment by radically increasing the necessary skill. B alienates players and is contrary to what the MMORPG was originally about: a world where a player could become a hero (or villain), regardless of how normal or even unheroic they were in real life, and despite their real life short-comings. Doesn't mean there should be no challenge, but that should not be the only barrier of entry for MMO character progression. Time is a better, more indiscriminate barrier.

    See Wildstar for the price of raising the skill bar too high.
    I think this is an fair summary of a discussion that went a little off-topic. @Mendel I'm by no means a blind follower of Pantheon; I'm only trying to bring clairvoyance to what we do know so far and what they've done to set themselves apart from others, which ultimately shows a lot of more promise than other MMOs in a long time; however, you're right, they are trying to accomplish a lot and it's no easy task.

     I'm still reserving judgement until the next stream. Curious to see how much progress they've made and the quality of that progress. It should be a good benchmark indication of what to expect in the future and how soon to expect it.
  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,218
    edited February 2017
    DMKano said:
    svann said:
    DMKano said:
    Anthur said:

    Other thoughts:
    - People will pay anything.  I don't know where they get the money but they do.  Go to your local mall and just try and find an older car in the parking lot in this so-called bad times...... Charge $59.99 and $15 a month...... Can't afford it ?..... Well, get a job !
    - No one likes easy.  Not even little ten year old Mike and his dad who play together.
    - Most open world as possible, to the best of developer team's abilities....... Everyone likes that.
    - Graphics, medium, concentrate on game play.  The complainers with the power rigs will get over it.  It's only 2017 were not their yet. as much as people have money, many don't have the hardware to keep up..... I would like to see everyone playing a good mmo.
    - Large game.  It's the only way people can immerse themselves into the world and community....It's the staying power !
    - No Auto anything, sorry real mmo players like to work !...... Just make a tolerant travel speed..... And a good SOCIAL PANEL to find others and encourage players to use it......It's always been the best way to get players together, but no one knows about it, go figure !  
    - MMO's get only ONE SHOT at getting it right.  This isn't new, we talk about it a lot and everyone always agrees.  No one comes back next year.  

    Except the last one, all of those assumptions are wrong or are not important to the majority of current MMO player base. That's the reason why most MMOs are what they are. 

    Well, if all the bullet points are wrong, and developers continue to feed off the same old, then we will keep getting what were getting.  Same old...Same old...... Then no point in having a game like Pantheon.

    Lets not forget, thousands upon thousands, if not millions are not happy right now.



    Even if there were billions of unhappy players, how many will like Pantheon enough to buy?

    How many will stick around for more than 6 weeks?

    Vanguard was a spiritual successor to EQ1, yet not all EQ1 players liked it. Many didnt.


    Most loved the design, but could not put up with the poor coding of the design.  Plus when you tell people "its your machine" its both wrong and insulting.  But the actual game design was miles ahead of EQ and in a good way.


    I loved VG and played from launch for 2 years straight - but IMO - EQ1 vanilla + Kunark + velious - still better than VG overall.

    VG did have a better game design - but as a whole EQ1 vanilla was a better game IMO
    Thats not really a valid comparison though.  You compared eq with 2 expansions to the vg game at release.  Compare vanilla eq with vanilla VG and I think VG far surpasses EQ (in design not coding). 
  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson Member EpicPosts: 3,025
    svann said:
    DMKano said:
    svann said:
    DMKano said:
    Anthur said:

    Other thoughts:
    - People will pay anything.  I don't know where they get the money but they do.  Go to your local mall and just try and find an older car in the parking lot in this so-called bad times...... Charge $59.99 and $15 a month...... Can't afford it ?..... Well, get a job !
    - No one likes easy.  Not even little ten year old Mike and his dad who play together.
    - Most open world as possible, to the best of developer team's abilities....... Everyone likes that.
    - Graphics, medium, concentrate on game play.  The complainers with the power rigs will get over it.  It's only 2017 were not their yet. as much as people have money, many don't have the hardware to keep up..... I would like to see everyone playing a good mmo.
    - Large game.  It's the only way people can immerse themselves into the world and community....It's the staying power !
    - No Auto anything, sorry real mmo players like to work !...... Just make a tolerant travel speed..... And a good SOCIAL PANEL to find others and encourage players to use it......It's always been the best way to get players together, but no one knows about it, go figure !  
    - MMO's get only ONE SHOT at getting it right.  This isn't new, we talk about it a lot and everyone always agrees.  No one comes back next year.  

    Except the last one, all of those assumptions are wrong or are not important to the majority of current MMO player base. That's the reason why most MMOs are what they are. 

    Well, if all the bullet points are wrong, and developers continue to feed off the same old, then we will keep getting what were getting.  Same old...Same old...... Then no point in having a game like Pantheon.

    Lets not forget, thousands upon thousands, if not millions are not happy right now.



    Even if there were billions of unhappy players, how many will like Pantheon enough to buy?

    How many will stick around for more than 6 weeks?

    Vanguard was a spiritual successor to EQ1, yet not all EQ1 players liked it. Many didnt.


    Most loved the design, but could not put up with the poor coding of the design.  Plus when you tell people "its your machine" its both wrong and insulting.  But the actual game design was miles ahead of EQ and in a good way.


    I loved VG and played from launch for 2 years straight - but IMO - EQ1 vanilla + Kunark + velious - still better than VG overall.

    VG did have a better game design - but as a whole EQ1 vanilla was a better game IMO
    Thats not really a valid comparison though.  You compared eq with 2 expansions to the vg game at release.  Compare vanilla eq with vanilla VG and I think VG far surpasses EQ (in design not coding). 
    Umm.. He did say that.  In the second sentence.

    "VG did have a better game design - but as a whole EQ1 vanilla was a better game IMO"

    See, it's all better meow ;-)
  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,308
    DMKano said:
    Anthur said:

    Other thoughts:
    - People will pay anything.  I don't know where they get the money but they do.  Go to your local mall and just try and find an older car in the parking lot in this so-called bad times...... Charge $59.99 and $15 a month...... Can't afford it ?..... Well, get a job !
    - No one likes easy.  Not even little ten year old Mike and his dad who play together.
    - Most open world as possible, to the best of developer team's abilities....... Everyone likes that.
    - Graphics, medium, concentrate on game play.  The complainers with the power rigs will get over it.  It's only 2017 were not their yet. as much as people have money, many don't have the hardware to keep up..... I would like to see everyone playing a good mmo.
    - Large game.  It's the only way people can immerse themselves into the world and community....It's the staying power !
    - No Auto anything, sorry real mmo players like to work !...... Just make a tolerant travel speed..... And a good SOCIAL PANEL to find others and encourage players to use it......It's always been the best way to get players together, but no one knows about it, go figure !  
    - MMO's get only ONE SHOT at getting it right.  This isn't new, we talk about it a lot and everyone always agrees.  No one comes back next year.  

    Except the last one, all of those assumptions are wrong or are not important to the majority of current MMO player base. That's the reason why most MMOs are what they are. 

    Well, if all the bullet points are wrong, and developers continue to feed off the same old, then we will keep getting what were getting.  Same old...Same old...... Then no point in having a game like Pantheon.

    Lets not forget, thousands upon thousands, if not millions are not happy right now.



    Even if there were billions of unhappy players, how many will like Pantheon enough to buy?

    How many will stick around for more than 6 weeks?

    Vanguard was a spiritual successor to EQ1, yet not all EQ1 players liked it. Many didnt.


    What if YOU end up not liking Pantheon, what if it turns out to be something thats differrent from your expectations?

    I mean why immediately go to the least likely outcome - which is "this game will be what Ive been waiting for to same MMOs" - when a much more realistic outcome is something like "hmm not as good as I hoped".

    this is true but then again vanguard's launch was one of the worst in MMO history. if brad and company did not learn from that and they have another piss poor launch anywhere near as bad as vanguard then pantheon will fail hard as well.

    people wanted to like vanguard, it's not like the vision and what was in game was not what they liked or expected, it was mainly just unplayable for most people unless they had a high end computer at the time.
  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,308
    svann said:
    DMKano said:
    Anthur said:

    Other thoughts:
    - People will pay anything.  I don't know where they get the money but they do.  Go to your local mall and just try and find an older car in the parking lot in this so-called bad times...... Charge $59.99 and $15 a month...... Can't afford it ?..... Well, get a job !
    - No one likes easy.  Not even little ten year old Mike and his dad who play together.
    - Most open world as possible, to the best of developer team's abilities....... Everyone likes that.
    - Graphics, medium, concentrate on game play.  The complainers with the power rigs will get over it.  It's only 2017 were not their yet. as much as people have money, many don't have the hardware to keep up..... I would like to see everyone playing a good mmo.
    - Large game.  It's the only way people can immerse themselves into the world and community....It's the staying power !
    - No Auto anything, sorry real mmo players like to work !...... Just make a tolerant travel speed..... And a good SOCIAL PANEL to find others and encourage players to use it......It's always been the best way to get players together, but no one knows about it, go figure !  
    - MMO's get only ONE SHOT at getting it right.  This isn't new, we talk about it a lot and everyone always agrees.  No one comes back next year.  

    Except the last one, all of those assumptions are wrong or are not important to the majority of current MMO player base. That's the reason why most MMOs are what they are. 

    Well, if all the bullet points are wrong, and developers continue to feed off the same old, then we will keep getting what were getting.  Same old...Same old...... Then no point in having a game like Pantheon.

    Lets not forget, thousands upon thousands, if not millions are not happy right now.



    Even if there were billions of unhappy players, how many will like Pantheon enough to buy?

    How many will stick around for more than 6 weeks?

    Vanguard was a spiritual successor to EQ1, yet not all EQ1 players liked it. Many didnt.


    Most loved the design, but could not put up with the poor coding of the design.  Plus when you tell people "its your machine" its both wrong and insulting.  But the actual game design was miles ahead of EQ and in a good way.
    i agree but the people that said "it's your machine" were not entirely incorrect. vanguard mistakenly was designed for more high end machines on top of the other issues it had.
  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    edited February 2017
    baphamet said:
    DMKano said:
    Anthur said:

    Other thoughts:
    - People will pay anything.  I don't know where they get the money but they do.  Go to your local mall and just try and find an older car in the parking lot in this so-called bad times...... Charge $59.99 and $15 a month...... Can't afford it ?..... Well, get a job !
    - No one likes easy.  Not even little ten year old Mike and his dad who play together.
    - Most open world as possible, to the best of developer team's abilities....... Everyone likes that.
    - Graphics, medium, concentrate on game play.  The complainers with the power rigs will get over it.  It's only 2017 were not their yet. as much as people have money, many don't have the hardware to keep up..... I would like to see everyone playing a good mmo.
    - Large game.  It's the only way people can immerse themselves into the world and community....It's the staying power !
    - No Auto anything, sorry real mmo players like to work !...... Just make a tolerant travel speed..... And a good SOCIAL PANEL to find others and encourage players to use it......It's always been the best way to get players together, but no one knows about it, go figure !  
    - MMO's get only ONE SHOT at getting it right.  This isn't new, we talk about it a lot and everyone always agrees.  No one comes back next year.  

    Except the last one, all of those assumptions are wrong or are not important to the majority of current MMO player base. That's the reason why most MMOs are what they are. 

    Well, if all the bullet points are wrong, and developers continue to feed off the same old, then we will keep getting what were getting.  Same old...Same old...... Then no point in having a game like Pantheon.

    Lets not forget, thousands upon thousands, if not millions are not happy right now.



    Even if there were billions of unhappy players, how many will like Pantheon enough to buy?

    How many will stick around for more than 6 weeks?

    Vanguard was a spiritual successor to EQ1, yet not all EQ1 players liked it. Many didnt.


    What if YOU end up not liking Pantheon, what if it turns out to be something thats differrent from your expectations?

    I mean why immediately go to the least likely outcome - which is "this game will be what Ive been waiting for to same MMOs" - when a much more realistic outcome is something like "hmm not as good as I hoped".

    this is true but then again vanguard's launch was one of the worst in MMO history. if brad and company did not learn from that and they have another piss poor launch anywhere near as bad as vanguard then pantheon will fail hard as well.

    people wanted to like vanguard, it's not like the vision and what was in game was not what they liked or expected, it was mainly just unplayable for most people unless they had a high end computer at the time.
    Yeah, funding for Vanguard was stopped before the game was near completion and forced t be released to meet the deadline. It was as bad as WoW was on release (few people remember how bad of a game WoW was for the first year or so but there was no other new MMO competition at the time so it ended up surviving), so the barren game didn't last very long.

    That's what's nice about VR and crowdfunding in general; they are able to be open with the community. Everything they promise, we get to see on streams etc.


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member EpicPosts: 8,541
    baphamet said:
    svann said:
    DMKano said:
    Anthur said:

    Other thoughts:
    - People will pay anything.  I don't know where they get the money but they do.  Go to your local mall and just try and find an older car in the parking lot in this so-called bad times...... Charge $59.99 and $15 a month...... Can't afford it ?..... Well, get a job !
    - No one likes easy.  Not even little ten year old Mike and his dad who play together.
    - Most open world as possible, to the best of developer team's abilities....... Everyone likes that.
    - Graphics, medium, concentrate on game play.  The complainers with the power rigs will get over it.  It's only 2017 were not their yet. as much as people have money, many don't have the hardware to keep up..... I would like to see everyone playing a good mmo.
    - Large game.  It's the only way people can immerse themselves into the world and community....It's the staying power !
    - No Auto anything, sorry real mmo players like to work !...... Just make a tolerant travel speed..... And a good SOCIAL PANEL to find others and encourage players to use it......It's always been the best way to get players together, but no one knows about it, go figure !  
    - MMO's get only ONE SHOT at getting it right.  This isn't new, we talk about it a lot and everyone always agrees.  No one comes back next year.  

    Except the last one, all of those assumptions are wrong or are not important to the majority of current MMO player base. That's the reason why most MMOs are what they are. 

    Well, if all the bullet points are wrong, and developers continue to feed off the same old, then we will keep getting what were getting.  Same old...Same old...... Then no point in having a game like Pantheon.

    Lets not forget, thousands upon thousands, if not millions are not happy right now.



    Even if there were billions of unhappy players, how many will like Pantheon enough to buy?

    How many will stick around for more than 6 weeks?

    Vanguard was a spiritual successor to EQ1, yet not all EQ1 players liked it. Many didnt.


    Most loved the design, but could not put up with the poor coding of the design.  Plus when you tell people "its your machine" its both wrong and insulting.  But the actual game design was miles ahead of EQ and in a good way.
    i agree but the people that said "it's your machine" were not entirely incorrect. vanguard mistakenly was designed for more high end machines on top of the other issues it had.
    Ya I had to buy a new video card to play VG and at the time my video card was running WoW just fine. 
  • KyleranKyleran Member LegendaryPosts: 36,348
    Nanfoodle said:
    baphamet said:
    svann said:
    DMKano said:
    Anthur said:

    Other thoughts:
    - People will pay anything.  I don't know where they get the money but they do.  Go to your local mall and just try and find an older car in the parking lot in this so-called bad times...... Charge $59.99 and $15 a month...... Can't afford it ?..... Well, get a job !
    - No one likes easy.  Not even little ten year old Mike and his dad who play together.
    - Most open world as possible, to the best of developer team's abilities....... Everyone likes that.
    - Graphics, medium, concentrate on game play.  The complainers with the power rigs will get over it.  It's only 2017 were not their yet. as much as people have money, many don't have the hardware to keep up..... I would like to see everyone playing a good mmo.
    - Large game.  It's the only way people can immerse themselves into the world and community....It's the staying power !
    - No Auto anything, sorry real mmo players like to work !...... Just make a tolerant travel speed..... And a good SOCIAL PANEL to find others and encourage players to use it......It's always been the best way to get players together, but no one knows about it, go figure !  
    - MMO's get only ONE SHOT at getting it right.  This isn't new, we talk about it a lot and everyone always agrees.  No one comes back next year.  

    Except the last one, all of those assumptions are wrong or are not important to the majority of current MMO player base. That's the reason why most MMOs are what they are. 

    Well, if all the bullet points are wrong, and developers continue to feed off the same old, then we will keep getting what were getting.  Same old...Same old...... Then no point in having a game like Pantheon.

    Lets not forget, thousands upon thousands, if not millions are not happy right now.



    Even if there were billions of unhappy players, how many will like Pantheon enough to buy?

    How many will stick around for more than 6 weeks?

    Vanguard was a spiritual successor to EQ1, yet not all EQ1 players liked it. Many didnt.


    Most loved the design, but could not put up with the poor coding of the design.  Plus when you tell people "its your machine" its both wrong and insulting.  But the actual game design was miles ahead of EQ and in a good way.
    i agree but the people that said "it's your machine" were not entirely incorrect. vanguard mistakenly was designed for more high end machines on top of the other issues it had.
    Ya I had to buy a new video card to play VG and at the time my video card was running WoW just fine. 
    At that time WOW would run fine on my underpowered work laptop with on the motherboard graphics so not the best comparison. ;)

    My 3 year old Dell gaming laptop was also struggling with it so I bought a new/better one and found out...it was the game, not my hardware.

    "See normal people, I'm not one of them" | G-Easy & Big Sean

    "I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant

    Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing FO76 at the moment.

    Fools find no pleasure in understanding, but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

    Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™

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  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,308
    Kyleran said:
    Nanfoodle said:
    baphamet said:
    svann said:
    DMKano said:
    Anthur said:

    Other thoughts:
    - People will pay anything.  I don't know where they get the money but they do.  Go to your local mall and just try and find an older car in the parking lot in this so-called bad times...... Charge $59.99 and $15 a month...... Can't afford it ?..... Well, get a job !
    - No one likes easy.  Not even little ten year old Mike and his dad who play together.
    - Most open world as possible, to the best of developer team's abilities....... Everyone likes that.
    - Graphics, medium, concentrate on game play.  The complainers with the power rigs will get over it.  It's only 2017 were not their yet. as much as people have money, many don't have the hardware to keep up..... I would like to see everyone playing a good mmo.
    - Large game.  It's the only way people can immerse themselves into the world and community....It's the staying power !
    - No Auto anything, sorry real mmo players like to work !...... Just make a tolerant travel speed..... And a good SOCIAL PANEL to find others and encourage players to use it......It's always been the best way to get players together, but no one knows about it, go figure !  
    - MMO's get only ONE SHOT at getting it right.  This isn't new, we talk about it a lot and everyone always agrees.  No one comes back next year.  

    Except the last one, all of those assumptions are wrong or are not important to the majority of current MMO player base. That's the reason why most MMOs are what they are. 

    Well, if all the bullet points are wrong, and developers continue to feed off the same old, then we will keep getting what were getting.  Same old...Same old...... Then no point in having a game like Pantheon.

    Lets not forget, thousands upon thousands, if not millions are not happy right now.



    Even if there were billions of unhappy players, how many will like Pantheon enough to buy?

    How many will stick around for more than 6 weeks?

    Vanguard was a spiritual successor to EQ1, yet not all EQ1 players liked it. Many didnt.


    Most loved the design, but could not put up with the poor coding of the design.  Plus when you tell people "its your machine" its both wrong and insulting.  But the actual game design was miles ahead of EQ and in a good way.
    i agree but the people that said "it's your machine" were not entirely incorrect. vanguard mistakenly was designed for more high end machines on top of the other issues it had.
    Ya I had to buy a new video card to play VG and at the time my video card was running WoW just fine. 
    At that time WOW would run fine on my underpowered work laptop with on the motherboard graphics so not the best comparison. ;)

    My 3 year old Dell gaming laptop was also struggling with it so I bought a new/better one and found out...it was the game, not my hardware.
    you simply cannot deny the fact that vanguard was mistakenly made for mid - higher end machines at that time, i think even brad would admit to that.

    there were people that could play it decently and others like myself that simply couldn't. when i came back later i was able to play it with a better computer.

    i'm sure some of the issues were fixed in that time but it's pretty well known that a lot of the bugs never got fixed and that game was left on the back burner for years.

     so yeah, part of it was your machine, you had to have a good one to play it and it should have never been that way IMO


  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    Tiamat64 said:
    Pantheon's thing is that it's a return to the old...
    That is both right and wrong. 

    Pantheons evolution cycle goes something like this: M59 -> EQ -> VG -> Pantheon.

    It certainly is not just a remake of a 90s game, it just didn't pass that Wow step in it's evolution most MMOs have.

    And there certainly is logic to take another path, most MMOs today have very similar gameplay. This is not the only evolution cycle they could have taken, there are games trying to start out with UO and other games as well (Eve is another one a few games try to evolve).

    Pantheon do bring in a bunch of new ideas as well as the old.

    Being different is not good enough of course but between 2 equally good game I would pick the one I don't feel like I already played for over 10 years already.

    Some of the early MMO features were rather terrible but others that been gone from the genre a long time is actually really good.

    There is a reason that the game that still is in second place as the top earning MMO is old Lineage, it is both really well made and also plays very different from anything else on the market (if you don't believe me check out NC Softs earning table).

    New school or oldschool really is not that important but a game needs to stand out if it want to keep it's players longterm. Pantheon will never become in the top selling PC game list like Wow but if they make the game right it will have very faithful players, something few games have today.
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 7,209
    Kyleran said:
    Play the recently reopened DAOC freeshard, based on the "1.65" ruleset (circa 2002).

    DAOC as how it was meant to be played. 
    Me too I am here too and I am simply loving it.

    Give it a try Delete. I swear I have seen you on these boards lamenting the current state of MMORPGs come play this game you will have nice dose of cold water thrown on you and you might like it.

    Despite having played Everquest and knowing how these old games were I was still a bit stunned when I first landed on Conla and looked around again I mean I have played this game after all I think three times in all the years and the last one ending circa 2008 may be when it was nothing like this 1.65 experience.

    I walked around and I tried to kill stuff and I died ,then died some more and learned that that I should not try mobs that con even at all. Even blues were tough I was down to 1/4 life most times. There are no maps that tell you where mobs are or even where to go to find anything and guess what it is super great to be thrown in the water to sink or swim.

    I have been pampered by the newer games and I am not all criticising the current games they just have different mechanics as the combat is more action type and they have different focus but to play a game like DAOC with these 2003 like rules is like a shock at first but strangely engrossing and hypnotic in its appeal.

    I am actually paying attention to the names of the NPCs because I am currently trying to get my armour crafting up and the crafting tasks take very long because the ingredients for the items are on vendors far away from the master trainer from whom you get the task and I have very little silver so I don't buy anything in bulk and then I have no idea where the NPC to whom I have to give the finished item is. You can craft for like 4 hours and manage only 20-30 points and I still cannot make anything that will con yellow to me yet which means armour that is around my level. Guess what I love this sense of weight the game gives and the combat sometimes come down to just who misses more for now any way. 

    People grouping everywhere and I get so many invites it is insane I love the community  so alive, talking, listening and responding. People say community is dead well it sure isn't here. Best part people even send you a tell the next day just to ask how you progressed from having answered a question you asked in chat. I mean they bothered to do that tell me when was the last time anyone did that in a new game to actually remember your name and send you a tell the next day to find out how you are faring.

    Then I had a real chuckle. I had died I got lost and was killed in one shot by something and awhile later someone send me a tell asking where I died. They needed that mob for a kill task and had no idea where to go ....that was really funny because you can see the death messages of people so you can see what killed them.

    Anyway go try the game Delete.
    Martens: "With all due respect, madam, where are you going with this?"
    Avasarala: "Wherever I goddamn like."
  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 6,512
    cheyane said:
    Kyleran said:
    Play the recently reopened DAOC freeshard, based on the "1.65" ruleset (circa 2002).

    DAOC as how it was meant to be played. 
    Me too I am here too and I am simply loving it.

    Give it a try Delete. I swear I have seen you on these boards lamenting the current state of MMORPGs come play this game you will have nice dose of cold water thrown on you and you might like it.

    Despite having played Everquest and knowing how these old games were I was still a bit stunned when I first landed on Conla and looked around again I mean I have played this game after all I think three times in all the years and the last one ending circa 2008 may be when it was nothing like this 1.65 experience.

    I walked around and I tried to kill stuff and I died ,then died some more and learned that that I should not try mobs that con even at all. Even blues were tough I was down to 1/4 life most times. There are no maps that tell you where mobs are or even where to go to find anything and guess what it is super great to be thrown in the water to sink or swim.

    I have been pampered by the newer games and I am not all criticising the current games they just have different mechanics as the combat is more action type and they have different focus but to play a game like DAOC with these 2003 like rules is like a shock at first but strangely engrossing and hypnotic in its appeal.

    I am actually paying attention to the names of the NPCs because I am currently trying to get my armour crafting up and the crafting tasks take very long because the ingredients for the items are on vendors far away from the master trainer from whom you get the task and I have very little silver so I don't buy anything in bulk and then I have no idea where the NPC to whom I have to give the finished item is. You can craft for like 4 hours and manage only 20-30 points and I still cannot make anything that will con yellow to me yet which means armour that is around my level. Guess what I love this sense of weight the game gives and the combat sometimes come down to just who misses more for now any way. 

    People grouping everywhere and I get so many invites it is insane I love the community  so alive, talking, listening and responding. People say community is dead well it sure isn't here. Best part people even send you a tell the next day just to ask how you progressed from having answered a question you asked in chat. I mean they bothered to do that tell me when was the last time anyone did that in a new game to actually remember your name and send you a tell the next day to find out how you are faring.

    Then I had a real chuckle. I had died I got lost and was killed in one shot by something and awhile later someone send me a tell asking where I died. They needed that mob for a kill task and had no idea where to go ....that was really funny because you can see the death messages of people so you can see what killed them.

    Anyway go try the game Delete.

    Thanks Cheyane,

    I was excited when Kyleran first brought this up about DAOC.  It's on my list of things to do :)

    This morning ends the Ghost Recon Wildlands Beta so I need to finish that up now.  My friends and I plan on playing that when it goes live, I think March 7.  Then soon after is Mass Effect Andromeda, another I'm waiting for.  However that may be too story driven for me.  The great thing about mmos is the freedom to do what ever you like feeling.  I miss that ever since developers decided to take it upon themselves to destroy this feature in recent mmos.

    After work I plan on watching some DAOC Youtubes because this is a major enlightenment.
     


    I understand it's a game from like 2002 so it wouldn't be for everyone.

    HOWEVER, I know I'm the king of making bold statements and I often rattle peoples cages here.  But I believe many have the nerve to say the newer generation wouldn't like a new style of open world group based mmo......And because of this, I know I'm not Mr. popular.....I don't care.  People like this tend to feed off of what the media controls them for what they like ( fake  news ).


    It's close to impossible to expect newer players or younger players to embrace OLD GAMES like EQ1, project 1999, DAOC or even Vanilla WoW........ Why?  Their OLD GAMES, the back round music alone could drive them away !.... It's that simple !


    Pantheon will be huge !!!!!......Until then we only have classics.  Until then us old schoolers can have some fun.  Sadly nothing for the new players yet.
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