Did you really need to post a staggering sized infographic to make the point? How big is that damn image?
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
It's one big advantage of procedural stuff, only on stuff as delerics, both space and planet-based, can be generated upon the game and discovered as it comes and goes. Ensuring replayability. Part of the game world is obviously static, but for exploration, it obviously needs the dynamic factor.
This goes from points on planets, ship wrecks, outposts (static and dynamic), to finding rare mineable resources on an asteroid or a planet. All of that falls upon exploration.
The game is not a mess on design on this aspect, you can simply try to understand how the tech meets the design on things as the point you just made. It's when PG driven content meets exploration that it will drive it away from the typical MMO static game-world.
It's one big advantage of procedural stuff, only on stuff as delerics, both space and planet-based, can be generated upon the game and discovered as it comes and goes. Ensuring replayability. Part of the game world is obviously static, but for exploration it obviously needs the dynamic factor.
How does that interface with the "persistent universe"? If I visit the same coordinates a week later, will everything have changed? If I share a chart with friends, what happens if more people wish to visit the same location than are allowed in an instance? What happens if my chart indicates certain features at a certain location, but someone else's chart indicates something different (what good are charts then, if this is the case)?
There are certain things, from a design perspective, that just don't fit. He's going to have to back off of some promises. I won't be one of the ones holding it against him, I'm just saying from a practical standpoint Chris has talked himself into a design equivalent of squaring the circle.
I'm looking forward to seeing how it all turns out, and I wish him the best.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
MaxBacon said: Redbull could partner with CIG and provide energy drinks to speed up productivity by 200%!
Productivity isn't a problem, effectivity is...
Just like the scale issue you talked about - they spent considerable amount of resoruces on ability to make those huge empty seamless space only to realize how pointless it is and go for downscaling....
How does that interface with the "persistent universe"? If I visit the same coordinates a week later, will everything have changed? If I share a chart with friends, what happens if more people wish to visit the same location than are allowed in an instance? What happens if my chart indicates certain features at a certain location, but someone else's chart indicates something different (what good are charts then, if this is the case)?
The persistent universe is just the persistent world towards all the players who are playing the game, hence the MMO. As for what I read from instancing, the same thing will generate on the same place for all the instances, if we talk about one ship-wreck, one asteroid with rare minerals... I'm not exactly sure if this is the same design on Elite Dangerous but I know it's similar to the one of Dual Universe.
On PG Driven they confirmed stuff like resources, the fact X player found a rare resource deposit doesn't meant that once it runs out, it will "respawn" there; one ship wreck will spawn and de-spawn (from what I hear over time) after discovered/looted. That is the dynamic factor of exploration if you're understanding what I mean that keeps adding content to be explored generated by the game.
Now if they add something static to the game that gets discovered and that's it, it's discovered, like the very cool way Elite Dangerous introduced the new Alien race.
How does that interface with the "persistent universe"? If I visit the same coordinates a week later, will everything have changed? If I share a chart with friends, what happens if more people wish to visit the same location than are allowed in an instance? What happens if my chart indicates certain features at a certain location, but someone else's chart indicates something different (what good are charts then, if this is the case)?
The persistent universe is just persistent towards all the players who are playing the game, hence the MMO. As for what I read from instancing, the same thing will generate on the same place for all the instances, if we talk about one ship-wreck, one asteroid with rare minerals... I'm not exactly sure if this is the same design on Elite Dangerous but I know it's similar to the one of Dual Universe.
What I understand is PG Driven has they confirmed is resources, the fact X player found a rare resource deposit doesn't meant that once it runs out, it will "respawn" there; one ship wreck will spawn and de-spawn (from what I hear over time) after discovered/looted. That is the dynamic factor of exploration if you're understanding what I mean.
Now if they add something static to the game that gets discovered and that's it, it's discovered, like the very cool way Elite Dangerous introduced the new Alien race.
It doesn't matter whether it's resources or asteroids and terrain; information will have to be shared among clients. It's a question of entropy.
Given the Star Citizen universe has a finite size (E:D for intents and purposes is infinite, which comes with its own set of problems), and 70% of this universe is 'unknown' (waiting to be explored), they will either have to reshuffle bits on the fly in order to maintain entropy, or allow this unknown space to be transformed into 'known' space.
It looks like they are aiming for the former, which is where we run into problems with instancing. What happens when my client says one set of resources, terrain, whatever, are in a given area, but another client says something different?
If all clients say the same thing, then this is sharing information, and you run into the same problem of unknown space turning into known space over time, unless you only change things when nobody is looking. This is also a problem, though, because what happens if I chart a location and return after some time only to find that what was in my chart isn't accurate?
I'm looking forward to seeing how they solve it; I still hold that it's impossible, but I'll be glad to be proven wrong.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
It looks like they are aiming for the former, which is where we run into problems with instancing. What happens when my client says one set of resources, terrain, whatever, are in a given area, but another client says something different?
Ha! This is simply the challenge of doing this within one instanced game, but they already discussed this around and know well the challenges of such, like currently multiple players taking on the same missions, and things as that.
Now SC was always meant to be instanced game, and always had this design within AI and exploration, I think this relates a LOT to the netcode they are working on where from what I understand, is one game-world but all this players on different cloud servers. The solution I think lies within updating the single game-world from the actions happening on multiple instances on the same place that provoke changes to on the area.
Just imagine the design of one escort mission, AI Factory generates escort ship of resources to Y location, that mission is happening on the game-world hence all the instances within it; the design then says that depending of the outcome of the mission, if the ship to escort doesn't reach the destination or it does the prices of X resource / items on that sector can increase/decrease... I think what you would do is have the outcome of mission on all the instances it might have happened determine how is the game-world going to be impacted, because the impact persists.
Does that means if one node is fully mined in one instance it will also be on the others? Or if the cummulation of the changes that persist of those instances of the same place will merge within the single-world? I don't really know but something deff will have to happen there and it certainly won't be any easy or simple solution either.
Just more hype, that if you ask me is more negative than positive.
They brag about (alleged) money raised and highlight the (over) price of packages and ships, then they try and compare it to big name games they think people love like Witcher and GtA and SC is still a third of the comparative metrics.
Also where do they get 77 systems? Where are these systems? Are they playable? Do they exist anywhere other than Chris Roberts imagination? And they try and say it would take 2 days to visit them. Meaningless number if they wanted to be accurate and not spin it would have been in hours or better yet to avoid any confusion CONTINUOUS hours.
But its been slow, fly free weekend saw the usual (no) bump in players logging, despite the 'new' build. Then they introduced ANOTHER monetized aspect of this fiasco with Spectrum. And anyone thinking it wont be monetized ...well.....NVM.
What will CIG do when the players have explored all Systems ?
Most likely CIG will introduce new systems ... and the players have to find them.
e.g. the systems they plan to use for the later parts of the solo game (deep in enemy territory)
>>> They brag about (alleged) money raised and highlight the (over) price of packages and ships, then they try and compare it to big name games they think people love like Witcher and GtA and SC is still a third of the comparative metrics. >>>
It may have escaped your notice, but that infographic is from Red Bull, not from CIG. So ... Red Bull is bragging about Star Citizen now? But hey, the moon landings are fake too, right ;-) ?
Just more hype, that if you ask me is more negative than positive.
They brag about (alleged) money raised and highlight the (over) price of packages and ships, then they try and compare it to big name games they think people love like Witcher and GtA and SC is still a third of the comparative metrics.
Also where do they get 77 systems? Where are these systems? Are they playable? Do they exist anywhere other than Chris Roberts imagination? And they try and say it would take 2 days to visit them. Meaningless number if they wanted to be accurate and not spin it would have been in hours or better yet to avoid any confusion CONTINUOUS hours.
But its been slow, fly free weekend saw the usual (no) bump in players logging, despite the 'new' build. Then they introduced ANOTHER monetized aspect of this fiasco with Spectrum. And anyone thinking it wont be monetized ...well.....NVM.
Ok, so I know that the image is large, but gawd! Please let it load before you start talking about "they" as if RSI published this, or did you think that Red Bull came up in this thread just organically? If you're looking for a conspiracy theory to latch onto with this infographic then I'll help you out, "I wonder how much RSI paid, of backers money, to have Red Bull create this?" Ok, now go off rally up support for it. Yes, I do find it funny that supporters now feel so bad that they're actually giving ammunition to haters now.
Yep once Roberts saw the money rolling in,i am certain he changed his design approach and said ok,let's ,milk this forever because this is making more money than a released game.
If he releases it and it turns supporters off after a month,he loses big time,so don't expect this to be an official launch for many years to come.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Not even Redbull could pull off that miracle.Maybe a cattle prod.
I worked on an office where most food/drinks was energy based supplements literally, it was... buzzying... until they got sued for it. People joked about the unpaid work hours elixir. xD
What will CIG do when the players have explored all Systems ?
Most likely CIG will introduce new systems ... and the players have to find them.
e.g. the systems they plan to use for the later parts of the solo game (deep in enemy territory)
>>> They brag about (alleged) money raised and highlight the (over) price of packages and ships, then they try and compare it to big name games they think people love like Witcher and GtA and SC is still a third of the comparative metrics. >>>
It may have escaped your notice, but that infographic is from Red Bull, not from CIG. So ... Red Bull is bragging about Star Citizen now? But hey, the moon landings are fake too, right ;-) ?
Have fun
Adding additional systems on the fly as needed is probably the best possible solution. This ends up being more work for the devs, of course, and someone is going to have to cover that ongoing cost.
However, I still think it's cheeky to imply exploration will be a big part of the game when you are dealing with a universe that's traversable in two days. I understand the shape of fractals and that each system will have additional detail being passed over in that case. I still think this underestimates the rate at which information gets shared among a population.
The alternative is to set up some kind of algorithm and hope for a dynamically stable universe that grows according to player needs without oversight, or reshuffles what gets put in existing space (problems with instancing, here).
I see it as more or less the holy grail of MMO world design. I think it's impossible without "fuzzing" it in some areas: you either have a world where exploration isn't a big part of it, or a world where player interaction gets spaced out below 'critical mass' and the game is no longer a MMO. I have yet to see a game design that does both. Crowfall's approach seems very interesting by actually having a world that 'resets' periodically.
What bothers me somewhat is that SC fans seem to want me to believe that both will be very possible in Star Citizen, and that Chris has some master plan he is cooking up behind the scenes. Maybe he is going to solve quantum gravity and cure cancer while he is at it. I just have to chuckle; I'm not keeping my expectations so high.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Yep once Roberts saw the money rolling in,i am certain he changed his design approach and said ok,let's ,milk this forever because this is making more money than a released game.
If he releases it and it turns supporters off after a month,he loses big time,so don't expect this to be an official launch for many years to come.
I would agree with you if all the evidence didn't point in the other direction. I'm probably missing SOME, but if you look through the list of crowdfunded games on Steam, the vast majority realize significantly more income following release than they do during their crowdfunding campaign. Seriously, just go take a look.
Granted, most companies aren't transparent to give us insight into what they generated through ALL their crowdfunding efforts (like post KS until release), but based on what we know, it's fair to say that you can expect to realize more money by releasing than not. Also, it would open up additional monetization opportunities that weren't available to you before.
Come on!! As a conspiracy theorist, do you know have the foresight to recognize that ships are merely the tip of the iceberg? There's a whole freakin' universe to monetize!! Just not until it's actually there for players to touch.
What bothers me somewhat is that SC fans seem to want me to believe that both will be very possible in Star Citizen, and that Chris has some master plan he is cooking up behind the scenes. Maybe he is going to solve quantum gravity and cure cancer while he is at it. I just have to chuckle; I'm not keeping my expectations so high.
I don't know why you say it's impossible when there's games around already working through this more complex network solutions within the reality of one MMO.
At the end, both are possible because they are developing the game like that, its static side and its dynamic side allow the exploration within the different variants they provide. The speed you travel through the game's systems will impact the stuff that exists that is explored "once", but not what is relying on PG.
Just another scam. Will never be released and when it does really who would even play this? Like eve worst game ever. I look at all these crowdfunded game or pledge game that require money to play before release. crowfall , albion, cam unchain, ect. all in development for 20+ years. You know they will take the money and run.
If this was the scam it would be in the Guinness book of world records for this shitest scam ever.
"Instead of running off with the money, we thought we would be edgelords and pay serval 100+ people instead, open up offices in different countries and start to create a game which we regularly update it, not only that, we thought we would make videos every week on our progress and what where doing. Heck if you're up for it we will invite you and the press to come see our scam in person"
What bothers me somewhat is that SC fans seem to want me to believe that both will be very possible in Star Citizen, and that Chris has some master plan he is cooking up behind the scenes. Maybe he is going to solve quantum gravity and cure cancer while he is at it. I just have to chuckle; I'm not keeping my expectations so high.
I don't know why you say it's impossible when there's games around already working through this more complex network solutions for one MMO.
I'm aware of Dual Universe (I'm not holding my breath for that game, either). The approach they speak of here:
"The approach we have developed is based on the idea of subdividing zones according to their population density, in a recursive way. If only 5 people are roaming the surface of a remote lonely planet, it will most likely be handled by one single server. Come thousands of visitors spread on the surface and the initial area will automatically divide itself."
The problem I'm speaking of doesn't have to do with computing power and the number of players per instance: it has to do withentropy. It has to do with the size of the universe, what is known, and what is unknown. In a word: exploration.
You keep cutting out the important parts of my posts, which makes it look like I have no clue what I'm talking about, but let me reiterate:
you either have a world where exploration isn't a big part of it, or a world where player interaction gets spaced out below 'critical mass' and the game is no longer a MMO
This is the dilemma I have yet to see a game solve convincingly. The best proposal I've seen to date is something like Crowfall, with a periodically resetting universe. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe this isn't a dilemma at all; it's just very troubling to me. /shrug
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
The problem I'm speaking of doesn't have to do with computing power and the number of players per instance: it has to do withentropy. It has to do with the size of the universe, what is known, and what is unknown. In a word: exploration.
You keep cutting out the important parts of my posts, which makes it look like I have no clue what I'm talking about, but let me reiterate:
you either have a world where exploration isn't a big part of it, or a world where player interaction gets spaced out below 'critical mass' and the game is no longer a MMO
This is the dilemma I have yet to see a game solve convincingly. The best proposal I've seen to date is something like Crowfall, with a periodically resetting universe. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe this isn't a dilemma at all; it's just very troubling to me.
As for the size, as said on the 3.0 system to go from one point to the other at quantum I think it would take 4 hours I'm not mistaken, I think that's one massive scale alone. And it points that they might be thinking of nerfing the quantum travel speeds.
I think it's more than enough for exploration, being that you need to be geared up for exploration and you wouldn't be at any max speeds when doing such (neither would I believe they ever let that happen as it doesn't fit scanning mechanics).
Because one thing you keep ignoring when it comes to exploration, it's the driven from PG; you're focusing on what's static, what's there to find "once", like Jump-Points. But things like crashed ships, asteroids, resources, satellites, disabled ships, and so forth, is exploration set upon a dynamic layer of things that spawn in somewhere, and "spawn out". The replayability is there for me.
If you're set to explore and track down a disabled ship somewhere that you can manually get back to operational and get it for yourself, that's set on the non-static layer of exploration, as it would be generated by the game, and who wouldn't be on the lookout for such a payday in-game? But ofc you could go to find and name a moon instead. xD
As with any crowd funded or for that matter, game still in development, statistics and graphs don't really help to prove anything. I mean, boasting like this will only put them under worse scrutiny when the game finally launches, IF it ever launches.
I was thinking the exact same thing. It seems being more humble is a better course to take.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Just another scam. Will never be released and when it does really who would even play this? Like eve worst game ever. I look at all these crowdfunded game or pledge game that require money to play before release. crowfall , albion, cam unchain, ect. all in development for 20+ years. You know they will take the money and run.
If this was the scam it would be in the Guinness book of world records for this shitest scam ever.
"Instead of running off with the money, we thought we would be edgelords and pay serval 100+ people instead, open up offices in different countries and start to create a game which we regularly update it, not only that, we thought we would make videos every week on our progress and what where doing. Heck if you're up for it we will invite you and the press to come see our scam in person"
strawman.
He and his wife and all the principles are living like rock stars over the last how many years? And how much longer can they milk it?
If he or any of them were forced to have a 'real' job they certainly wouldnt be living the lifestyle they are now. That is easily fact checked by how he had been living before they started this whole thing.
Its not an outright scam in the purest sense but it is most assuredly a way for these people to live will beyond their means with money that have made selling ships and other nonexistent entities, that even when (if) they are ever 'created' they are still simply a bunch of pixels.
As for the 'they' Red Bull made that based on what CiG has released. So it is 'they' in the simplest sense. But only if Red Bull (or some actual reliable thrird party actuary, which obviously wouldnt be Red Bull but at least Red Bull would be semi outsider) could get in there and check their books
What bothers me somewhat is that SC fans seem to want me to believe that both will be very possible in Star Citizen, and that Chris has some master plan he is cooking up behind the scenes. Maybe he is going to solve quantum gravity and cure cancer while he is at it. I just have to chuckle; I'm not keeping my expectations so high.
I don't know why you say it's impossible when there's games around already working through this more complex network solutions for one MMO.
I'm aware of Dual Universe (I'm not holding my breath for that game, either). The approach they speak of here:
"The approach we have developed is based on the idea of subdividing zones according to their population density, in a recursive way. If only 5 people are roaming the surface of a remote lonely planet, it will most likely be handled by one single server. Come thousands of visitors spread on the surface and the initial area will automatically divide itself."
The problem I'm speaking of doesn't have to do with computing power and the number of players per instance: it has to do withentropy. It has to do with the size of the universe, what is known, and what is unknown. In a word: exploration.
You keep cutting out the important parts of my posts, which makes it look like I have no clue what I'm talking about, but let me reiterate:
you either have a world where exploration isn't a big part of it, or a world where player interaction gets spaced out below 'critical mass' and the game is no longer a MMO
This is the dilemma I have yet to see a game solve convincingly. The best proposal I've seen to date is something like Crowfall, with a periodically resetting universe. Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe this isn't a dilemma at all; it's just very troubling to me. /shrug
If it makes you feel better, when the crux of your posts gets ignored or removed, you're not the one who looks like they have no clue. "If you can't explain it simply you don't understand it well enough" comes to mind.
I'm picking up what you're throwing down. It's an interesting point you bring up. I suspect the initial unknown space will be the extent of exploration. That will be enough to check the feature box off. After that, likely small procedurally generated instances that reset on exit, much like instanced dungeons. Flying around the same shit looking for different things layered in isn't exploration as a selling point. That's maybe slightly different than wandering around any other game world looking for resources or mobs. Unless they make every point of the universe a spawn location, it won't even be like looking for wandering mobs. Spawn locations will be mapped out in short order and the quickest paths between them posted online in short order. For all the talk of how big and badass and unprecedented this game will be, that would be a gross underestimation of the hardcore gaming population that has done exactly that in almost every single game ever. Either way, that's a long stretch away from exploration as a selling point.
I'm not sure there is any other way around it, though; other than running a huge team that just keeps expanding the universe long after the initial money has dried up and sales flatten out. As has been said many, many times: all ships will be available in game with normal play. So the ship sales money will virtually disappear, yet there is so much talk of all these things happening after release that cost money. It's taken this long and this much cash to get remotely close to speaking of getting close to a minimum viable product.
In NMS there were supposed to be so many millions of stars, 2 players might never cross paths. It took about 8 hours for 2 players to find the same planet.
100 star systems will be explored in days and then wikis, apps, maps, optimal routes etc will start appearing in week 2.
Comments
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
It's one big advantage of procedural stuff, only on stuff as delerics, both space and planet-based, can be generated upon the game and discovered as it comes and goes. Ensuring replayability. Part of the game world is obviously static, but for exploration, it obviously needs the dynamic factor.
This goes from points on planets, ship wrecks, outposts (static and dynamic), to finding rare mineable resources on an asteroid or a planet. All of that falls upon exploration.
The game is not a mess on design on this aspect, you can simply try to understand how the tech meets the design on things as the point you just made. It's when PG driven content meets exploration that it will drive it away from the typical MMO static game-world.
There are certain things, from a design perspective, that just don't fit. He's going to have to back off of some promises. I won't be one of the ones holding it against him, I'm just saying from a practical standpoint Chris has talked himself into a design equivalent of squaring the circle.
I'm looking forward to seeing how it all turns out, and I wish him the best.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Just like the scale issue you talked about - they spent considerable amount of resoruces on ability to make those huge empty seamless space only to realize how pointless it is and go for downscaling....
Typical SC, the development is a mess.
On PG Driven they confirmed stuff like resources, the fact X player found a rare resource deposit doesn't meant that once it runs out, it will "respawn" there; one ship wreck will spawn and de-spawn (from what I hear over time) after discovered/looted. That is the dynamic factor of exploration if you're understanding what I mean that keeps adding content to be explored generated by the game.
Now if they add something static to the game that gets discovered and that's it, it's discovered, like the very cool way Elite Dangerous introduced the new Alien race.
Given the Star Citizen universe has a finite size (E:D for intents and purposes is infinite, which comes with its own set of problems), and 70% of this universe is 'unknown' (waiting to be explored), they will either have to reshuffle bits on the fly in order to maintain entropy, or allow this unknown space to be transformed into 'known' space.
It looks like they are aiming for the former, which is where we run into problems with instancing. What happens when my client says one set of resources, terrain, whatever, are in a given area, but another client says something different?
If all clients say the same thing, then this is sharing information, and you run into the same problem of unknown space turning into known space over time, unless you only change things when nobody is looking. This is also a problem, though, because what happens if I chart a location and return after some time only to find that what was in my chart isn't accurate?
I'm looking forward to seeing how they solve it; I still hold that it's impossible, but I'll be glad to be proven wrong.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Now SC was always meant to be instanced game, and always had this design within AI and exploration, I think this relates a LOT to the netcode they are working on where from what I understand, is one game-world but all this players on different cloud servers. The solution I think lies within updating the single game-world from the actions happening on multiple instances on the same place that provoke changes to on the area.
Just imagine the design of one escort mission, AI Factory generates escort ship of resources to Y location, that mission is happening on the game-world hence all the instances within it; the design then says that depending of the outcome of the mission, if the ship to escort doesn't reach the destination or it does the prices of X resource / items on that sector can increase/decrease... I think what you would do is have the outcome of mission on all the instances it might have happened determine how is the game-world going to be impacted, because the impact persists.
Does that means if one node is fully mined in one instance it will also be on the others? Or if the cummulation of the changes that persist of those instances of the same place will merge within the single-world? I don't really know but something deff will have to happen there and it certainly won't be any easy or simple solution either.
Just more hype, that if you ask me is more negative than positive.
They brag about (alleged) money raised and highlight the (over) price of packages and ships, then they try and compare it to big name games they think people love like Witcher and GtA and SC is still a third of the comparative metrics.
Also where do they get 77 systems? Where are these systems? Are they playable? Do they exist anywhere other than Chris Roberts imagination? And they try and say it would take 2 days to visit them. Meaningless number if they wanted to be accurate and not spin it would have been in hours or better yet to avoid any confusion CONTINUOUS hours.
But its been slow, fly free weekend saw the usual (no) bump in players logging, despite the 'new' build. Then they introduced ANOTHER monetized aspect of this fiasco with Spectrum. And anyone thinking it wont be monetized ...well.....NVM.
The Systems:
https://robertsspaceindustries.com/starmap
What will CIG do when the players have explored all Systems ?
Most likely CIG will introduce new systems ... and the players have to find them.
e.g. the systems they plan to use for the later parts of the solo game (deep in enemy territory)
>>> They brag about (alleged) money raised and highlight the (over) price of packages and ships, then they try and compare it to big name games they think people love like Witcher and GtA and SC is still a third of the comparative metrics. >>>
It may have escaped your notice, but that infographic is from Red Bull, not from CIG. So ... Red Bull is bragging about Star Citizen now? But hey, the moon landings are fake too, right ;-) ?
Have fun
Ok, so I know that the image is large, but gawd! Please let it load before you start talking about "they" as if RSI published this, or did you think that Red Bull came up in this thread just organically? If you're looking for a conspiracy theory to latch onto with this infographic then I'll help you out, "I wonder how much RSI paid, of backers money, to have Red Bull create this?" Ok, now go off rally up support for it. Yes, I do find it funny that supporters now feel so bad that they're actually giving ammunition to haters now.
Crazkanuk
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If he releases it and it turns supporters off after a month,he loses big time,so don't expect this to be an official launch for many years to come.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Not even Redbull could pull off that miracle.Maybe a cattle prod.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
However, I still think it's cheeky to imply exploration will be a big part of the game when you are dealing with a universe that's traversable in two days. I understand the shape of fractals and that each system will have additional detail being passed over in that case. I still think this underestimates the rate at which information gets shared among a population.
The alternative is to set up some kind of algorithm and hope for a dynamically stable universe that grows according to player needs without oversight, or reshuffles what gets put in existing space (problems with instancing, here).
I see it as more or less the holy grail of MMO world design. I think it's impossible without "fuzzing" it in some areas: you either have a world where exploration isn't a big part of it, or a world where player interaction gets spaced out below 'critical mass' and the game is no longer a MMO. I have yet to see a game design that does both. Crowfall's approach seems very interesting by actually having a world that 'resets' periodically.
What bothers me somewhat is that SC fans seem to want me to believe that both will be very possible in Star Citizen, and that Chris has some master plan he is cooking up behind the scenes. Maybe he is going to solve quantum gravity and cure cancer while he is at it. I just have to chuckle; I'm not keeping my expectations so high.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
I would agree with you if all the evidence didn't point in the other direction. I'm probably missing SOME, but if you look through the list of crowdfunded games on Steam, the vast majority realize significantly more income following release than they do during their crowdfunding campaign. Seriously, just go take a look.
Granted, most companies aren't transparent to give us insight into what they generated through ALL their crowdfunding efforts (like post KS until release), but based on what we know, it's fair to say that you can expect to realize more money by releasing than not. Also, it would open up additional monetization opportunities that weren't available to you before.
Come on!! As a conspiracy theorist, do you know have the foresight to recognize that ships are merely the tip of the iceberg? There's a whole freakin' universe to monetize!! Just not until it's actually there for players to touch.
Crazkanuk
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Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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I don't know why you say it's impossible when there's games around already working through this more complex network solutions within the reality of one MMO.
At the end, both are possible because they are developing the game like that, its static side and its dynamic side allow the exploration within the different variants they provide. The speed you travel through the game's systems will impact the stuff that exists that is explored "once", but not what is relying on PG.
"Instead of running off with the money, we thought we would be edgelords and pay serval 100+ people instead, open up offices in different countries and start to create a game which we regularly update it, not only that, we thought we would make videos every week on our progress and what where doing. Heck if you're up for it we will invite you and the press to come see our scam in person"
"The approach we have developed is based on the idea of subdividing zones according to their population density, in a recursive way. If only 5 people are roaming the surface of a remote lonely planet, it will most likely be handled by one single server. Come thousands of visitors spread on the surface and the initial area will automatically divide itself."
...is nothing new. Programmers have known about this for ages. Vendetta Online does this, and I'm 95% positive Eve does this as well.
The problem I'm speaking of doesn't have to do with computing power and the number of players per instance: it has to do with entropy. It has to do with the size of the universe, what is known, and what is unknown. In a word: exploration.
You keep cutting out the important parts of my posts, which makes it look like I have no clue what I'm talking about, but let me reiterate:
you either have a world where exploration isn't a big part of it, or a world where player interaction gets spaced out below 'critical mass' and the game is no longer a MMO
This is the dilemma I have yet to see a game solve convincingly. The best proposal I've seen to date is something like Crowfall, with a periodically resetting universe.
Maybe I'm wrong, and maybe this isn't a dilemma at all; it's just very troubling to me.
/shrug
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
I think it's more than enough for exploration, being that you need to be geared up for exploration and you wouldn't be at any max speeds when doing such (neither would I believe they ever let that happen as it doesn't fit scanning mechanics).
Because one thing you keep ignoring when it comes to exploration, it's the driven from PG; you're focusing on what's static, what's there to find "once", like Jump-Points. But things like crashed ships, asteroids, resources, satellites, disabled ships, and so forth, is exploration set upon a dynamic layer of things that spawn in somewhere, and "spawn out". The replayability is there for me.
If you're set to explore and track down a disabled ship somewhere that you can manually get back to operational and get it for yourself, that's set on the non-static layer of exploration, as it would be generated by the game, and who wouldn't be on the lookout for such a payday in-game? But ofc you could go to find and name a moon instead. xD
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
He and his wife and all the principles are living like rock stars over the last how many years? And how much longer can they milk it?
If he or any of them were forced to have a 'real' job they certainly wouldnt be living the lifestyle they are now. That is easily fact checked by how he had been living before they started this whole thing.
Its not an outright scam in the purest sense but it is most assuredly a way for these people to live will beyond their means with money that have made selling ships and other nonexistent entities, that even when (if) they are ever 'created' they are still simply a bunch of pixels.
As for the 'they' Red Bull made that based on what CiG has released. So it is 'they' in the simplest sense. But only if Red Bull (or some actual reliable thrird party actuary, which obviously wouldnt be Red Bull but at least Red Bull would be semi outsider) could get in there and check their books
If it makes you feel better, when the crux of your posts gets ignored or removed, you're not the one who looks like they have no clue. "If you can't explain it simply you don't understand it well enough" comes to mind.
I'm picking up what you're throwing down. It's an interesting point you bring up. I suspect the initial unknown space will be the extent of exploration. That will be enough to check the feature box off. After that, likely small procedurally generated instances that reset on exit, much like instanced dungeons. Flying around the same shit looking for different things layered in isn't exploration as a selling point. That's maybe slightly different than wandering around any other game world looking for resources or mobs. Unless they make every point of the universe a spawn location, it won't even be like looking for wandering mobs. Spawn locations will be mapped out in short order and the quickest paths between them posted online in short order. For all the talk of how big and badass and unprecedented this game will be, that would be a gross underestimation of the hardcore gaming population that has done exactly that in almost every single game ever. Either way, that's a long stretch away from exploration as a selling point.
I'm not sure there is any other way around it, though; other than running a huge team that just keeps expanding the universe long after the initial money has dried up and sales flatten out. As has been said many, many times: all ships will be available in game with normal play. So the ship sales money will virtually disappear, yet there is so much talk of all these things happening after release that cost money. It's taken this long and this much cash to get remotely close to speaking of getting close to a minimum viable product.
100 star systems will be explored in days and then wikis, apps, maps, optimal routes etc will start appearing in week 2.
What will there be to explore..?