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Really nice game, but...

CrosswireCrosswire Member UncommonPosts: 264
I like everything about this game bar one thing.  
The combat consists of kill 10 of this, kill 10 of that, and that's your lot.  They try to disguise the fact there is only one quest throughout the game by giving the quests individual names.  But if job, duty, leaf, whatever, the quest is always the same.  Kill ?? of this by pressing the one key/spell/blow available to you.

Comments

  • XImpalerXXImpalerX Member UncommonPosts: 606
    Welcome to MMORPG's. Let us hear your idea of a quest  system that doesn't involve killing enemies or running/fetch and you could revolutionize the genre. And dont say quests where you just stand still and do nothing as your exp bar goes up lol
  • StormsoneStormsone Member UncommonPosts: 83
    XImpalerX said:
    Welcome to MMORPG's. Let us hear your idea of a quest  system that doesn't involve killing enemies or running/fetch and you could revolutionize the genre. And dont say quests where you just stand still and do nothing as your exp bar goes up lol
    Sounds like you think its impossible but I think its possible here is my idea. First you clearly mark 'quests'
    colors are just examples of how you could mark them.

    blue for go kill it
    yellow for delivery
    orange for bounties go kill it but rewards you unlimited amount not just one time
    green for tasks like go craft this
    purple for a quest which is a scripted event with writing and cut scenes and you know.... a story.
    then there should be events that are kinda quests but handled by a person live in game or maybe in the future ai. There's no ai smart enough to do this yet thought of course maybe some day.

     By clearing marking whats a real quest and will be interesting you avoid confusion between things there for leveling and those that are for entertainment. That way people can ignore things that are not really quests if they want. Developers cannot write a million quests into a game that are interesting, but they could write some that are more interesting and if they clearly mark whats has more content it would help.

    Other suggestion is remove questing as a form of leveling all together and quests are just there for entertainment.
  • bcbullybcbully Member EpicPosts: 11,804
    XImpalerX said:
    Welcome to MMORPG's. Let us hear your idea of a quest  system that doesn't involve killing enemies or running/fetch and you could revolutionize the genre. And dont say quests where you just stand still and do nothing as your exp bar goes up lol
    you get rid of quest for XP. See systems like Age of Wushu and EVE.
    "We see fundamentals and we ape in"
  • CrosswireCrosswire Member UncommonPosts: 264
    edited February 2017
    What I meant to say was that apart from a rare few quest, all are killing the same old bugs and stuff over and over. And basically because of the spells/moves available, you just sit there pressing one, or two keys until said bug is dead, falling asleep. If only the combat or quest types were a little more interesting, because the rest of the game is excellent.

    BTW:  I am new to the game and am only level 15
  • TheScavengerTheScavenger Member EpicPosts: 3,321
    Guild Wars 2 removed quests and added dynamic events

    Granted, they did a shit job of it. They are timed events that have no effect on the world, and people actually put them on a timer...so...actually not dynamic at all

    Still, different than the usual "quests" or advancement MMOs do

    My Skyrim, Fallout 4, Starbound and WoW + other game mods at MODDB: 

    https://www.moddb.com/mods/skyrim-anime-overhaul



  • CrosswireCrosswire Member UncommonPosts: 264
    edited February 2017
    Yeah, I played GW2 for years, but in the end I had  exhausted everything interesting the game had to offer, and was not a fan of the expansion.
  • Erinak1Erinak1 Member UncommonPosts: 194
    Hang on, guild wars 2 had quests you just didn't have to pick them up...
  • SavageHorizonSavageHorizon Member EpicPosts: 3,465
    Guild Wars 2 removed quests and added dynamic events

    Granted, they did a shit job of it. They are timed events that have no effect on the world, and people actually put them on a timer...so...actually not dynamic at all

    Still, different than the usual "quests" or advancement MMOs do

    Guild wars two is the worst example you could give. That system is a total one man band fed x quest system. 




  • CrosswireCrosswire Member UncommonPosts: 264
    edited February 2017
    Agreed. I started playing GW2 years back and it always seemed I had company.  Roll forward a few years to the present and it's usually a case of spot the real person for a free lollipop.

    But I think they should look closer at the quest/combat system in FF as it's the only thing letting the game down atm.
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,771
    Honestly it's the same as most MMOs.  I think it's more glaring in FFXIV because the combat is so repetitive and boring.
  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Member RarePosts: 2,094
    edited February 2017
    Stormsone said:
    XImpalerX said:
    Welcome to MMORPG's. Let us hear your idea of a quest  system that doesn't involve killing enemies or running/fetch and you could revolutionize the genre. And dont say quests where you just stand still and do nothing as your exp bar goes up lol
    Sounds like you think its impossible but I think its possible here is my idea. First you clearly mark 'quests'
    colors are just examples of how you could mark them.

    blue for go kill it
    yellow for delivery
    orange for bounties go kill it but rewards you unlimited amount not just one time
    green for tasks like go craft this
    purple for a quest which is a scripted event with writing and cut scenes and you know.... a story.
    then there should be events that are kinda quests but handled by a person live in game or maybe in the future ai. There's no ai smart enough to do this yet thought of course maybe some day.

     By clearing marking whats a real quest and will be interesting you avoid confusion between things there for leveling and those that are for entertainment. That way people can ignore things that are not really quests if they want. Developers cannot write a million quests into a game that are interesting, but they could write some that are more interesting and if they clearly mark whats has more content it would help.

    Other suggestion is remove questing as a form of leveling all together and quests are just there for entertainment.

    FFXIV has all of this, and pretty much does this idea.  It has quest markers that designate Side Quest, Important Side Quest (Unlocks systems and fun things like Gold Saucer Amusement Park, Triple Triad, Chocobo racing and breeding, etc.), Story Side Quest, Main Story, Etc.  With legitimate crafting quests with real storyline, gear, rotations, etc. 
    Post edited by Yaevindusk on
    Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing).  German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century.  Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now).  I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things).  In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while.  If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.

    Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this.  If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own.  Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis.  Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
  • YaevinduskYaevindusk Member RarePosts: 2,094
    edited February 2017
    Crosswire said:
    I like everything about this game bar one thing.  
    The combat consists of kill 10 of this, kill 10 of that, and that's your lot.  They try to disguise the fact there is only one quest throughout the game by giving the quests individual names.  But if job, duty, leaf, whatever, the quest is always the same.  Kill ?? of this by pressing the one key/spell/blow available to you.

    @Crosswire

    Any has combat pretty much revolved around this.  Though it's glaring for the first 1-15 levels.  But that's really for the sake of story, since you're just a level one green nobody until you make a name for yourself.  Even still, they'll always rely on you to do the heavy lifting.

    Though there are much more unique quests or quests that tie into story quite well as you go on.  Not to mention crafting quests, gathering quests, leve quests (which could include various mini games and tasks that don't just involve fighting), fates (same as leves, but appear on the map at random times),  Palace of the Dead deep dungeon (randomized 200 floors of dungeon; if you wipe on floors 100+ it resets you back down to 50), Amusement parks, dozens of entertainment things (Triple Triad, Chocobo Racing, Breed, Training), FC work, FC Housing, Normal Housing, all things involved in housing, fishing, dungeons, raids, alliance raids, Wondrous Tales, Hildibrand, Mentor Systems, Roulette Systems, etc. etc.

    Just have to get past the starting levels and into the meat of the content to unlock most of them.  And they don't just unlock once you reach a level, you have to search for them in the game world and talk to specific NPCs.  They don't even tell you they exist until you find them, or you acquire said knowledge from others.  They actually do a pretty decent job towards Heavensward.  The 2.5 stuff even has a few hours of action cutscenes and story, and the 3.x patch are just as good.

    Honestly it's the same as most MMOs.  I think it's more glaring in FFXIV because the combat is so repetitive and boring.
    @holdenhamlet

    I never understood the perception of "repetitive" and "boring".  Though repetitive is understandable for any game, as there will always been the same skills you unlock.  Though boring is usually associated with "slower gdc" and I am confused by this aspect.  To me, there is little difference between spamming 111111111111 a thousand times for a 1-1.5 second GDC to pressing it only once after two seconds.  Especially since you have so much more to worry about within those two seconds.  I've said this quite a few times before, but towards the end game -- and with quite a few classes -- you could get upwards of a 50 button rotation, without addons to help you.  Match with other things such as buff rotations, debuff rotations, attack rotations, mini-game rotations, etc.  The rotations have rotations, in a lot of ways.  Then each rotation may also have a proc and or a positional requirement.  And it isn't as simple as "this rotation is always the back" or "always attack the back", but rather, switching to the side and back and front with virtually every GDC.  Then procs sometimes have max DPS positional requirements, especially with the Dragoon's RNG System where it randomly picks which side is the best to attack at the end of a rotation, all the while losing 10 seconds on a buff that may have only has 12 seconds left, and trying to squeeze in the rotation that extends the length, but lowers your DPS if you spam it instead of your main attack rotation (and not wanting to miss out on even .10 of your DPS while trying to figure out from which direction it wants you to attack in less than a second's moment and time to react before your next attack is due).  Not to mention the class mechanics, boss mechanics, area mechanics, class synergy, the type of tank you have and how they move and position (having to note such since you have to attack a constantly moving target), etc.

    Again not even mentioning some mini games such as the Ninja's hand symbols that you perform mid-battle and inbetween globals.  If you mess up on the minigame you lose out on 20% of your DPS for 30 seconds and are greeted by a humiliating emote so everyone knows that you suck.  Honestly, there's so much to plan and do and consider (especially with specific bosses or classes on your team that may change your own playstyle to max your DPS when needed) that the GDC is too fast in a lot of cases.  It's why there is a HUGE, HUUUUUGE skill gap in damage versus the Elite and the casuals.  Additionally, some melee classes like the monk and ninja have 20-30% haste buffs that increase that GDC further and make things a mess, especially if your connection is below average at that time.

    I don't call that boring.  Difficult to be great, maybe.  But it always makes me think.  Stresses me out.  What I call boring is WoW combat with addons that tell me things and a very simple rotation.  Just spamming button pushes without thought because of a swift global.  Now don't get me wrong, that has a special place in my heart.  I enjoy playing WoW when I pretty much turn my mind off and just want to veg without thinking.  But if you think about it, that is indicative of being a very boring process if I were active at the time.

    FFXIV's Battlesystem towards the end is very Active in thought and movement.  Sometimes having to plan things out or consider synergy or when is a good time to use your buff rotation or your attack or whatever.  Maybe even stopping half way through and knowing when to continue or start anew to avoid DPS loss (perhaps due to other circumstances).

    The game's rotations have rotations, and each individual attack therein may have intricacies and further requirements to max your DPS.  Sometimes dependent on which tank you have and the other DPS.


    Due to frequent travel in my youth, English isn't something I consider my primary language (and thus I obtained quirky ways of writing).  German and French were always easier for me despite my family being U.S. citizens for over a century.  Spanish I learned as a requirement in school, Japanese and Korean I acquired for my youthful desire of anime and gaming (and also work now).  I only debate in English to help me work with it (and limit things).  In addition, I'm not smart enough to remain fluent in everything and typically need exposure to get in the groove of things again if I haven't heard it in a while.  If you understand Mandarin, I know a little, but it has actually been a challenge and could use some help.

    Also, I thoroughly enjoy debates and have accounts on over a dozen sites for this.  If you wish to engage in such, please put effort in a post and provide sources -- I will then do the same with what I already wrote (if I didn't) as well as with my responses to your own.  Expanding my information on a subject makes my stance either change or strengthen the next time I speak of it or write a thesis.  Allow me to thank you sincerely for your time.
  • ReizlaReizla Member RarePosts: 4,092
    Crosswire said:
    I like everything about this game bar one thing.  
    The combat consists of kill 10 of this, kill 10 of that, and that's your lot.  They try to disguise the fact there is only one quest throughout the game by giving the quests individual names.  But if job, duty, leaf, whatever, the quest is always the same.  Kill ?? of this by pressing the one key/spell/blow available to you.
    I'm with you there. Love the whole setting, crafting system and all, but indeed, 99% of the quests are the 'Kill 10 rats' ones. One of the main reasons I play it is because RL friends of me play it as well, and that's what makes the game the most enjoyable.
  • WarlyxWarlyx Member EpicPosts: 3,229
    i dont mind those quests , but yeah there is 0 fun in going to X spot killing 10 mobs and back ...

    FFXIV is special that both MSQ and Normal quests are once a time u never need to repeat them (the only repeatable quests are Tribes quests ) , u get a 50% exp boost for characters that are lower level that your higher lvl class.

    HW at least has flying so doing does quests are waaaay more easy and faster


  • HeraseHerase Member RarePosts: 993
    edited February 2017
    Well it kind unavoidable as you will always be doing quests. What ever they introduce or any mmo introduce, over time people will say the same thing.  

    Think the overall problem is a lot of quests feel unimportant, especially side quests. combat can play a role to. It needs to engage the player, make them feel what they're doing is worth while. Think dynamic quest are best for this, but it has to be taken a step further.

    You help x npc fight off enemies, you move on to castle front, you help x npc break in, you move on to dethrone the orc or monster, Npc take over, the rest flee. then he has quests to help rebuild or take out the fleeing monsters as they've set up game outside to try take it back. Get what I mean? Constantly changing constantly feel what you are doing is meaningful. The world changes depending on what happens, not just by players but NPCs as well.

    The only tech that could do that was storybricks and I say it always, it would have changed gaming in a massive way. Think the screwed themselfs placing all their eggs into one basket, but it would have revolutionised gaming AI/questing, hands down. I hope someone buys the tech or kickstarts it back up.
  • holdenhamletholdenhamlet Member EpicPosts: 3,771
    Crosswire said:
    I like everything about this game bar one thing.  
    The combat consists of kill 10 of this, kill 10 of that, and that's your lot.  They try to disguise the fact there is only one quest throughout the game by giving the quests individual names.  But if job, duty, leaf, whatever, the quest is always the same.  Kill ?? of this by pressing the one key/spell/blow available to you.

    @Crosswire

    Any has combat pretty much revolved around this.  Though it's glaring for the first 1-15 levels.  But that's really for the sake of story, since you're just a level one green nobody until you make a name for yourself.  Even still, they'll always rely on you to do the heavy lifting.

    Though there are much more unique quests or quests that tie into story quite well as you go on.  Not to mention crafting quests, gathering quests, leve quests (which could include various mini games and tasks that don't just involve fighting), fates (same as leves, but appear on the map at random times),  Palace of the Dead deep dungeon (randomized 200 floors of dungeon; if you wipe on floors 100+ it resets you back down to 50), Amusement parks, dozens of entertainment things (Triple Triad, Chocobo Racing, Breed, Training), FC work, FC Housing, Normal Housing, all things involved in housing, fishing, dungeons, raids, alliance raids, Wondrous Tales, Hildibrand, Mentor Systems, Roulette Systems, etc. etc.

    Just have to get past the starting levels and into the meat of the content to unlock most of them.  And they don't just unlock once you reach a level, you have to search for them in the game world and talk to specific NPCs.  They don't even tell you they exist until you find them, or you acquire said knowledge from others.  They actually do a pretty decent job towards Heavensward.  The 2.5 stuff even has a few hours of action cutscenes and story, and the 3.x patch are just as good.

    Honestly it's the same as most MMOs.  I think it's more glaring in FFXIV because the combat is so repetitive and boring.
    @holdenhamlet

    I never understood the perception of "repetitive" and "boring".  Though repetitive is understandable for any game, as there will always been the same skills you unlock.  Though boring is usually associated with "slower gdc" and I am confused by this aspect.  To me, there is little difference between spamming 111111111111 a thousand times for a 1-1.5 second GDC to pressing it only once after two seconds.  Especially since you have so much more to worry about within those two seconds.  I've said this quite a few times before, but towards the end game -- and with quite a few classes -- you could get upwards of a 50 button rotation, without addons to help you.  Match with other things such as buff rotations, debuff rotations, attack rotations, mini-game rotations, etc.  The rotations have rotations, in a lot of ways.  Then each rotation may also have a proc and or a positional requirement.  And it isn't as simple as "this rotation is always the back" or "always attack the back", but rather, switching to the side and back and front with virtually every GDC.  Then procs sometimes have max DPS positional requirements, especially with the Dragoon's RNG System where it randomly picks which side is the best to attack at the end of a rotation, all the while losing 10 seconds on a buff that may have only has 12 seconds left, and trying to squeeze in the rotation that extends the length, but lowers your DPS if you spam it instead of your main attack rotation (and not wanting to miss out on even .10 of your DPS while trying to figure out from which direction it wants you to attack in less than a second's moment and time to react before your next attack is due).  Not to mention the class mechanics, boss mechanics, area mechanics, class synergy, the type of tank you have and how they move and position (having to note such since you have to attack a constantly moving target), etc.

    Again not even mentioning some mini games such as the Ninja's hand symbols that you perform mid-battle and inbetween globals.  If you mess up on the minigame you lose out on 20% of your DPS for 30 seconds and are greeted by a humiliating emote so everyone knows that you suck.  Honestly, there's so much to plan and do and consider (especially with specific bosses or classes on your team that may change your own playstyle to max your DPS when needed) that the GDC is too fast in a lot of cases.  It's why there is a HUGE, HUUUUUGE skill gap in damage versus the Elite and the casuals.  Additionally, some melee classes like the monk and ninja have 20-30% haste buffs that increase that GDC further and make things a mess, especially if your connection is below average at that time.

    I don't call that boring.  Difficult to be great, maybe.  But it always makes me think.  Stresses me out.  What I call boring is WoW combat with addons that tell me things and a very simple rotation.  Just spamming button pushes without thought because of a swift global.  Now don't get me wrong, that has a special place in my heart.  I enjoy playing WoW when I pretty much turn my mind off and just want to veg without thinking.  But if you think about it, that is indicative of being a very boring process if I were active at the time.

    FFXIV's Battlesystem towards the end is very Active in thought and movement.  Sometimes having to plan things out or consider synergy or when is a good time to use your buff rotation or your attack or whatever.  Maybe even stopping half way through and knowing when to continue or start anew to avoid DPS loss (perhaps due to other circumstances).

    The game's rotations have rotations, and each individual attack therein may have intricacies and further requirements to max your DPS.  Sometimes dependent on which tank you have and the other DPS.



    Well, I played FFXIV up to the artifact weapon.  Granted I played BLM, which is apparently the most boring class (I didn't know that when choosing it), but I didn't find anything resembling what you're talking about.

    Maybe it gets more interesting later on, but damn that's a lot of playtime you have to put in before things get interesting, don't you think?

    Ultimately it comes down to the game being tab-target with a 2.5 GCD.  Sure there may be some interesting things occasionally, but generally you're just going to be pressing the same buttons every 2.5 seconds.

    I really tried to like FFXIV.  I was a huge fan of FFXI (my first MMO), I played the first version of FFXIV, and I think they put a lot of effort into making the game and continue to support it well.  But shit man, it's just too boring to play.
  • WarlyxWarlyx Member EpicPosts: 3,229
    BLM are actually the job that suffer the less from 2.5 gcd since has the most casting times , and blm gets most interesting at 50 (and later on way more harder and interesting thanks to enochian , and a bit painfull with ley lines , that is like Rune of power of wow )

    i find combat in FFXIV slow but "fun" , the GCD is huge? yeah but isnt that bad once u get used to it , plus some jobs get way lower GCD and way lower once u start getting S.speed. and of course u get tons of Off the global cd skills to weave and u barely notice it.


  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,030
    I just can't do tab-target games with 100 skills anymore.  I've come to the realization that pressing that many buttons to perform a rotation isn't involved or strategic, it's inefficient.
  • CrosswireCrosswire Member UncommonPosts: 264
    edited February 2017
    Seems the more I play the game the more I turn a blind side to the boring quest/combat thing as the social, and story side of the game make's up for these short comings.    
    It seems like FF14 is one of the few games left that you actually get the feeling you are playing with other people and not NPC's.
  • seeyouspacec0wboyseeyouspacec0wboy Member UncommonPosts: 714
    XImpalerX said:
    Welcome to MMORPG's. Let us hear your idea of a quest  system that doesn't involve killing enemies or running/fetch and you could revolutionize the genre. And dont say quests where you just stand still and do nothing as your exp bar goes up lol
    For what it's worth MMO's pre WoW had much more interesting questions because they were few and far between. They had you going on long treks to places that you needed friends with you to get to or you would die, then you find a dungeon and have to clear it to find something. Or you have to find an item to unlock a place to deliver a letter to somebody. Etc. Etc. Quests used to take hours-days to accomplish and they had big impacts on your experience in the game. The modern quest hub of fed ex style quests was introduced with WoW, although even WoW didn't do it as heavily in vanilla. 

    I would MUCH rather go back to a style of play where quests were limited but very interesting, and in between you could go to dangerous areas with friends to grind for XP. God that was so much more rewarding and SOCIAL. 

    Originally posted by Scagweed22
    is it the graphics? the repetativenesses? i mean what is the point? you could be so much more productive in real life
    Real life brings repetition and pointlessness too. The only thing real life offers is Great graphics. Its kinda expensive too and way to dependent on the cash shop. Totally pay to win as well. No thank you. Ill stick to my games.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 3,030
    XImpalerX said:
    Welcome to MMORPG's. Let us hear your idea of a quest  system that doesn't involve killing enemies or running/fetch and you could revolutionize the genre. And dont say quests where you just stand still and do nothing as your exp bar goes up lol
    For what it's worth MMO's pre WoW had much more interesting questions because they were few and far between. They had you going on long treks to places that you needed friends with you to get to or you would die, then you find a dungeon and have to clear it to find something. Or you have to find an item to unlock a place to deliver a letter to somebody. Etc. Etc. Quests used to take hours-days to accomplish and they had big impacts on your experience in the game. The modern quest hub of fed ex style quests was introduced with WoW, although even WoW didn't do it as heavily in vanilla. 

    I would MUCH rather go back to a style of play where quests were limited but very interesting, and in between you could go to dangerous areas with friends to grind for XP. God that was so much more rewarding and SOCIAL. 

    This.  I've long thought that the genre could use a shake up in questing.  Make them massively long and few but make them much more involved.

    I would much rather have to spend a week on and off doing long-term objectives like traveling halfway across the game world and get a reward than to do 500 fetch quests.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    edited February 2017
    Obviously you can only involve things in a game and what do all games pretty much have....mobs/buildings and players.One thing that SHOULD be obvious is that almost every quest WOULD be expected to fetch something,otherwise why would it be a quest?I mean we have seen someone go on a quest to discover say Mount Everest but aside from fetch me and discovery,there is not much else really.

    However i have played a quest where you had to charm a mob but it had to be near dead for it to work.

    FFXI had tons of ideas,like quests to unravel amazing gear or Campaign quests to unlock new ranks to get better gear,quests that unlock rank within your nation to be able to trade seals to the guards for items.

    well quests can have you craft stuff,like maybe that npc likes a red cloth or wool jacket.
    earn certain weapon skills through a quest
    send you on some rng discover a npc,i said rng so that there is a large array to possibly keep Wikia out of it.
    A chain of NPC's giving clues  to discover places.Basically a quest to have you learn more about the world.
    If the game has any events,have you take part and perhaps kill a Boss during that event.Example FFXi had Besieged ,so need to wait for the right event then engage that certain Boss.
    Have you group with 20 different people not on friends list for a nice reward.
    A quest that has you complete combos with certain players,each allows you to raise your dmg output with that combo.

    Quests to unlock secret abilities that players would otherwise not know about.So you have to actually talk to lots of npc's and listen to their stories for clues.Of course some lame ass developer would just float arrows in the air showing you exactly where to go.



    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • CrosswireCrosswire Member UncommonPosts: 264
    edited March 2017
    Another thing that has risen it's troublesome head is that so far, I have come across 55 different outfits that are, in reality, the same outfit, just a different colour.  :)
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