Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Final Fantasy XIV - Combat Changes on the Way - MMORPG.com

2»

Comments

  • JudgeUKJudgeUK Member RarePosts: 1,472
    Albatroes said:

    JudgeUK said:


    Albatroes said:

    Combo system would've worked better if it was similar to Aion or Tera in the respect that a single skill just changed effects as you used it again instead of having separate skills that honestly do nothing without having the previous fire first.


    You do have macros you know?



    how is a macro going to do a combo for me exactly?
    FFXIV has an extensive macro creator, which can be used for basic two line combos upto comprehensive multi-line examples. They are a great help, and suggested for use at higher content.
  • JudgeUKJudgeUK Member RarePosts: 1,472

    There need to be more skills off the GCD, and make it faster than 2.5 seconds. What century are we in?
    Unfortunately the era where the jumping around 'action' game is described as the new genre mmo. Where comprehensive ability lists, mirrored by complex raid mechanics, have been replaced by hopping about in an everyone's a dps spamming fest.
    Instant mob kills, dungeons completed in 10 minutes with rng your biggest foe when it comes to the reward chest. (required keys in cash shop).

    Now players have been swamped by this instant gratification shallowness, so anything that requires real time and thought is considered too old school, not worth taking the time for when you can log onto something else and get to end level in a week.
  • SinakuSinaku Member UncommonPosts: 547
    This is fantastic news. I love the combat in general for FFXIV, but I do not like the insane amount of skills needed to memorize to optimize DPS (or hell WAR or DRK tanking at that).
  • DewulfDewulf Member UncommonPosts: 139

    Filbur said:

    The alleged "combat revamp" is really nothing more than ability pruning to introduce a few new skills from 60 to 70, the number of abilities will stay the same.



    Yoshida: "# of actions at lv70 will = # of actions at lv60 now"




    And overhauling some stats I think. There has been lots of talk about removal of accuracy and parry changes.
  • DewulfDewulf Member UncommonPosts: 139

    JudgeUK said:


    Albatroes said:



    JudgeUK said:




    Albatroes said:


    Combo system would've worked better if it was similar to Aion or Tera in the respect that a single skill just changed effects as you used it again instead of having separate skills that honestly do nothing without having the previous fire first.




    You do have macros you know?






    how is a macro going to do a combo for me exactly?


    FFXIV has an extensive macro creator, which can be used for basic two line combos upto comprehensive multi-line examples. They are a great help, and suggested for use at higher content.



    Macros can maybe be used for buffs, but if u are using them for ability combos, you are losing lots of dps...
  • PottedPlant22PottedPlant22 Member RarePosts: 794
    Dewulf said:


    Macros can maybe be used for buffs, but if u are using them for ability combos, you are losing lots of dps...
    It has been said repeatedly in multiple min/max threads on the official forums that the loss is not that much in comparison to manual input.  It only matters in the top tier content, which a vast majority of players will not experience.  That being said the additional delay is in there to 'reward' players that don't use macros.  I personally don't use macros, but I know many do.  

    The extensive use of macros by many in the community (even in raid situations) is one of the main reasons I support their combat changes in pairing down the number of abilities.  I feel reducing the abilities and focusing on the proper time to use the lower number of abilities is a better way of creating a more visceral game experience.  It also allows for the couple of extra situational abilities to be mixed in thanks to the lower number of rotation abilities required.  This makes the game more accessible while timing still be a factor and more important to the skilled players.

    This will accomplish two things.  Great players will be able to kill the boss quick which will give the max dps players out there satisfaction and it will also allow more casual players to just kill the boss, but undoubtedly take more time.  At the top level curve for the most extreme content (which will be the new raids and trials most likely,) you will have the 'DPS race' matter the most.  Here and only here will there probably be problems that casual moderate geared DPS will have the most trouble.

  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,751
    edited February 2017
    After playing games like Wildstar and ESO and even crowfall in it's alpha as hell state...I just can't do it.  
    Pushing more buttons for the sake of pushing more buttons is not strategic or challenging.
    You know what's ACTUALLY challenging?  Being able to block and knowing when to, being able to interrupt bosses and open up bonus damage windows (and btw you need the whole group not one stun), trying to heal a group with people who move with spells you have to aim, aiming and landing any and all attacks instead of pushing a button and it automatically happening every time.

    If they had kept things like elemental weaknesses that matter, and several CC and buff effects etc from older tab-target games then I could see it being at least somewhat tactical.  All they've done is made already simple combat even simpler and more boring though.  It's DEvolved, not Evolved.
    Post edited by Kajidourden on
  • nimander99nimander99 Member UncommonPosts: 288
    Just like with SWTOR I would sub and play this game if it wasn't a WoW Clone... Combat is stagnant. Its why I enjoy games like ESO and BDO. You spend most of your time killing mobs, might as well be fun doing it, otherwise, what's the point? Use a combat system developed in 2004? Puhleeze.

    If the combat was more action oriented, dodging, blocking (manually), swinging your sword (ARPG) style, then the game would be an absolute masterpiece.
  • Kayo83Kayo83 Member UncommonPosts: 387
    Filbur said:
    The alleged "combat revamp" is really nothing more than ability pruning to introduce a few new skills from 60 to 70, the number of abilities will stay the same. 

    Yoshida: "# of actions at lv70 will = # of actions at lv60 now"
    Well that answers that. Was hoping they'd go for a more fun and engaging combat system but its just the same old shit from every other MMO, doing the same old shit every other MMO does after a few expansions.
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 19,173
    Aori said:
    Torval said:
    Maybe they'll have seasonal skills like WoW's seasonal content. Every year they add skills and prune old skills they made redundant by adding new skills that were better. Nothing could go wrong there.

    It wasn't the combat, which I enjoyed, or the TTK, which is a bit long, that put me off. It was the horrible cutscenes and solo story line. Did not like it. It felt crude, rough, and low budget. The rest of the npc dialog and environments were nice though.
    I'm going through the level 50+ MSQ now.. it is a bunch of monologues in dead silence, it is pretty freaking bad. I like the story.. when they're telling one.
    Yes, thanks. That is it exactly. It's not all bad all the time, and when it's good the story is good, but those happen a lot in the solo arc.
    take back the hobby: https://www.reddit.com/r/patientgamers/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly
    ༼ つ ◕◕ ༽つ

  • angerbeaverangerbeaver Member UncommonPosts: 1,052
    Jesus did I ever play my Bard the wrong way. I had like a 5 skill rotation.
  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Member UncommonPosts: 326
    Its a shame that the combat changes aren't overhauling the system or at least laying the ground work for more expansive systems. Their combat system is inherently shallow, that is compounded by their sterile (albeit stylized) class design and subsequent focus on balance. Unfortunately this leads to rotational based combat-gameplay. (And a major focus on minigames.) I don't mind the slower paced combat (I actually like the GCD time), however there is no room for expansion in combat terms. Their potential well was small and has been fully actualized for years now. Which is why bosses are all just variations of red circle dodge and checks.

    If you're interested, my thoughts in a bit more detail:

    Mechanic wise there is very little the system is capable of performing.

    There is no "Elemental" damage, as thus all damage is damage regardless of whether its fire or lightning. You can't design around or exploit weaknesses in enemies. They did this so that their black mage was an equivalent DPS no matter what environment he was in (sterile class design).

    Most bosses are CC immune and the arena is static, thus the only way to "win" is to straight up DPS, Tank, and heal before some arbitrary time limit. In terms of strategy, tactics and gameplay there is little here. Without being able to interrupt, counter or otherwise influence the boss or arena, It boils down to a reactionary avoid red circles (or small tells in the case of coincounter - my favorite dungeon boss from 14) and beat the corresponding check (dps, mitigation, etc).

    Coupled with the CC immune bosses is simple and predictable AI that predicates aggro-locking due to taunts/threat. Add in the necessity to differentiate group roles and this leads to insane mitigation for tanks. Unfortunately, as a consequence the highest strategic formula attainable is a tank swap.
    ...
    At this point in this system you have only three abilities total: Attack, Taunt, and Heal. And you have a strict three roles and each class archetype has to be "equal" within those roles. Which means that each role has to embody a single ability or, at most, have a primary ability equality with a "minor" (in FF14's case VERY minor) in the others. However, we still have only three core abilities. Whats left to design gameplay? The only thing left is to break attack up into 70 different attacks that are slightly different, but do what was intended with the single, original "Attack" ability. Then you can disguise this simplicity by layering them with Resource Management or Time Management.  Unfortunately, this leads to all archetypes being just copies of each other with slight variations in their abilities (BRD vs. MCH).

    By homogenizing classes and utilizing simple mechanics/ai you simplified all potential gameplay in terms of combat. Imagine if a valid tactic for the ifrit fight was to ignore the spike and turtle up (without being over-geared)? If you had not super-specialized the classes into one role and removed weaknesses you could have a mage who specialized in fire, and is capable of creating a short duration bubble to nullify fire damage. Certainly he wouldn't be able to offense the fire boss, but he brings in a powerful defensive power that could be used as a valid tactic instead of raw DPS checks. Against Shiva, he would undoubtedly prove to be better used on offense. Unfortunately, this requires non universal damage and loose roles, so it can't be done in their system.


    Don't get me wrong, simplifying gameplay isn't always a bad thing. Its a trade off. By making simplistic gameplay, you can spend more time adding polish to the system or other parts of the world. I just feel FFXIV went too shallow. But that would be why it could create such polished boss fights and a gorgeous world.
    I think we can see this by examining 1.0 and 2.0. FFXIV 1.0 = Huge Potential Well, little actualized. FFXIV 2.0+ = Shallow Potential Well, fully actualized. I think most people would say 2.0 was the better game, but 1.0 had more potential.
  • DarkswormDarksworm Member RarePosts: 960
    The combat does seem incredibly sluggish to me. Long cast times and long GCD. Honestly I never noticed this when playing games back in 2004, but looking back at EQ it feels as sluggish as FFXIV feels today. I think many of us got used to faster cast times, etc. and it's really hard to reacclimate the slower combat once that has happened.

    Apart from that, the inability to buy the game once and play on any platform I own (PS4, PC, Mac, etc.) is a huge monetary roadblock for me. It turns it into a <= $200 up-front purchase (Game + Expansion x 3), which is [for me] highway robbery.
  • monochrome19monochrome19 Member UncommonPosts: 715
    Honestly, without major changes to combat I don't see a reason to come back. I have to invest hundreds of hours just to touch the new content and questing has become a miserable god awful experience. While I do like the game, it'd take a miracle to get me back. I just dont think its worth it.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,751
    Its a shame that the combat changes aren't overhauling the system or at least laying the ground work for more expansive systems. Their combat system is inherently shallow, that is compounded by their sterile (albeit stylized) class design and subsequent focus on balance. Unfortunately this leads to rotational based combat-gameplay. (And a major focus on minigames.) I don't mind the slower paced combat (I actually like the GCD time), however there is no room for expansion in combat terms. Their potential well was small and has been fully actualized for years now. Which is why bosses are all just variations of red circle dodge and checks.

    If you're interested, my thoughts in a bit more detail:

    Mechanic wise there is very little the system is capable of performing.

    There is no "Elemental" damage, as thus all damage is damage regardless of whether its fire or lightning. You can't design around or exploit weaknesses in enemies. They did this so that their black mage was an equivalent DPS no matter what environment he was in (sterile class design).

    Most bosses are CC immune and the arena is static, thus the only way to "win" is to straight up DPS, Tank, and heal before some arbitrary time limit. In terms of strategy, tactics and gameplay there is little here. Without being able to interrupt, counter or otherwise influence the boss or arena, It boils down to a reactionary avoid red circles (or small tells in the case of coincounter - my favorite dungeon boss from 14) and beat the corresponding check (dps, mitigation, etc).

    Coupled with the CC immune bosses is simple and predictable AI that predicates aggro-locking due to taunts/threat. Add in the necessity to differentiate group roles and this leads to insane mitigation for tanks. Unfortunately, as a consequence the highest strategic formula attainable is a tank swap.
    ...
    At this point in this system you have only three abilities total: Attack, Taunt, and Heal. And you have a strict three roles and each class archetype has to be "equal" within those roles. Which means that each role has to embody a single ability or, at most, have a primary ability equality with a "minor" (in FF14's case VERY minor) in the others. However, we still have only three core abilities. Whats left to design gameplay? The only thing left is to break attack up into 70 different attacks that are slightly different, but do what was intended with the single, original "Attack" ability. Then you can disguise this simplicity by layering them with Resource Management or Time Management.  Unfortunately, this leads to all archetypes being just copies of each other with slight variations in their abilities (BRD vs. MCH).

    By homogenizing classes and utilizing simple mechanics/ai you simplified all potential gameplay in terms of combat. Imagine if a valid tactic for the ifrit fight was to ignore the spike and turtle up (without being over-geared)? If you had not super-specialized the classes into one role and removed weaknesses you could have a mage who specialized in fire, and is capable of creating a short duration bubble to nullify fire damage. Certainly he wouldn't be able to offense the fire boss, but he brings in a powerful defensive power that could be used as a valid tactic instead of raw DPS checks. Against Shiva, he would undoubtedly prove to be better used on offense. Unfortunately, this requires non universal damage and loose roles, so it can't be done in their system.


    Don't get me wrong, simplifying gameplay isn't always a bad thing. Its a trade off. By making simplistic gameplay, you can spend more time adding polish to the system or other parts of the world. I just feel FFXIV went too shallow. But that would be why it could create such polished boss fights and a gorgeous world.
    I think we can see this by examining 1.0 and 2.0. FFXIV 1.0 = Huge Potential Well, little actualized. FFXIV 2.0+ = Shallow Potential Well, fully actualized. I think most people would say 2.0 was the better game, but 1.0 had more potential.

    This.  Thanks for explaining everything in more detail I was summarizing lol.
  • JudgeUKJudgeUK Member RarePosts: 1,472
    edited February 2017
    Not linking the post above, it would be too long. But in response:
    Don't forget that your class isn't just one. It's a combination of your main role, plus customizable options from other class jobs.

    As for balance - of course they are. We've all seen the effects of the buffing/nerfing of classes over the years. One gets abandoned, whilst the other becomes the must have, with parties full of this dps class.

    It doesn't matter whether it's tank, healer, dps - raise one and it's everywhere. Nerf one and it's dropped waiting for the next cycle of class changes. That is and has never been a good way to treat classes that players have invested considerable time in.

    The opposite of this cyclical buff v nerf / pick up and drop of classes is accurate balancing. The fact that FFXIV does it so well, across a myriad of different dungeon and raid mechanics, is a testament to the quality of the development team.

    It also highlights the difference in subscription v ftp mmo's. In the latter the company, whilst never admitting it, wants you to drop your class and re-invest in another. That's part of their income stream. In subscription games there's no financial advantage to it. In fact it's the opposite, as the company wants players able to continue with their favorite class, and keep going with the sub.

    The work put into the raids and raid progression by the team continues to set the standard for mmo's. They need to continue at this level, and resist calls for simplified skills/skill mechanics.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,751
    edited February 2017
    JudgeUK said:
    Not linking the post above, it would be too long. But in response:
    Don't forget that your class isn't just one. It's a combination of your main role, plus customizable options from other class jobs.

    As for balance - of course they are. We've all seen the effects of the buffing/nerfing of classes over the years. One gets abandoned, whilst the other becomes the must have, with parties full of this dps class.

    It doesn't matter whether it's tank, healer, dps - raise one and it's everywhere. Nerf one and it's dropped waiting for the next cycle of class changes. That is and has never been a good way to treat classes that players have invested considerable time in.

    The opposite of this cyclical buff v nerf / pick up and drop of classes is accurate balancing. The fact that FFXIV does it so well, across a myriad of different dungeon and raid mechanics, is a testament to the quality of the development team.

    It also highlights the difference in subscription v ftp mmo's. In the latter the company, whilst never admitting it, wants you to drop your class and re-invest in another. That's part of their income stream. In subscription games there's no financial advantage to it. In fact it's the opposite, as the company wants players able to continue with their favorite class, and keep going with the sub.

    The work put into the raids and raid progression by the team continues to set the standard for mmo's. They need to continue at this level, and resist calls for simplified skills/skill mechanics.
    1) The expansion will be changing that, because it made no sense.
    2) Balanced and boring is still boring.
  • JudgeUKJudgeUK Member RarePosts: 1,472
    SPOILER ALERT before we go any further.

    If you think this is 'boring' then it's probably best to go away from mmo's and do something else.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,751
    edited February 2017
    Boy, shuffling to one side or another is REALLY engaging.  Look, I played FFXIV for a long time, I'm intimately familiar with the mechanics....they are as simple as they come. 
    They make everything look top notch, but there's not a lot of substance behind the flash. 
    You are still just DPSing (all auto-aimed btw) while moving to one side or another based on telegraphs.  Nothing in that video refutes what has been brought up.
  • Kaisen_DexxKaisen_Dexx Member UncommonPosts: 326

    JudgeUK said:

    SPOILER ALERT before we go any further.



    If you think this is 'boring' then it's probably best to go away from mmo's and do something else.




    I'm not trying to be argumentative or accusatory here (after all, everyone has their own preference), but if you turn off the spell effects, would it still be just as fun for you?
Sign In or Register to comment.