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did the Anti-Trinity fad die yet?

13

Comments

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,939
    edited February 2017
    filmoret said:
    Trinity dungeon conversation.


    Healer-  I'm gonna cast heal.
    Tank-  I'm gonna pull mobs and taunt them.
    Dps-  I'm gonna shoot arrows and do damage.


    Yea thats some real strategy you got going there.
    No its a tad more complicated then that.

    Tank - I will pull the front two mobs chances are the back four will come.
    Enchanter - I'll mez the healer.
    Bard - I'll kite the other two while weaving buff songs in between
    Wizard or druid - I'll root the 4th melee mob away from others and DPS the two mobs the tank is tanking concentrating on marked target first. 
    Cleric - I'll keep everyone alive but main heals for tank.

    As soon as the two mobs the tank is tanking are dead the bard brings the two he was kiting and takes over kiting the rooted and mezzed ones because of resistance to both second application of mez and root. Druid spirit of the wolf does not work indoors so they cannot kite inside dungeons. However every one must also pay attention and not damage the mezzed or rooted mobs and keep an eye if they happen to break the mez or root. A well oiled group is a  joy to work with.

  • mgilbrtsnmgilbrtsn Member EpicPosts: 3,430
    Trinity never left.  Games can call them other things, give them mismatched powers or otherwise alter the skills make-up.  However, you'll find that ppl see the benefit of having a focused healer, tank, and dps/control character in group situations.  In single player situations may be different, but with group content, 'focused specialties' are the watch words.

    I self identify as a monkey.

  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,266
    edited February 2017
    mgilbrtsn said:
    This is the age of the interwebs.  Nothing ever dies.  Somewhere in deep underground basements, there are still ppl screaming for shadowbane to be brought back and that 5 1/4 is the way to go.  
    They're not in the basement, those people are over at the Crowfall forums desperately trying to get the devs to make it into Shadowbane 2 no matter how bad their ideas.
  • LeiloniLeiloni Member RarePosts: 1,266
    edited February 2017
    kitarad said:
    filmoret said:
    Trinity dungeon conversation.


    Healer-  I'm gonna cast heal.
    Tank-  I'm gonna pull mobs and taunt them.
    Dps-  I'm gonna shoot arrows and do damage.


    Yea thats some real strategy you got going there.
    No its a tad more complicated then that.

    Tank - I will pull the front two mobs chances are the back four will come.
    Enchanter - I'll mez the healer.
    Bard - I'll kite the other two while weaving buff songs in between
    Wizard or druid - I'll root the 4th melee mob away from others and DPS the two mobs the tank is tanking concentrating on marked target first. 
    Cleric - I'll keep everyone alive but main heals for tank.

    As soon as the two mobs the tank is tanking are dead the bard brings the two he was kiting and takes over kiting the rooted and mezzed ones because of resistance to both second application of mez and root. Druid spirit of the wolf does not work indoors so they cannot kite inside dungeons. However every one must also pay attention and not damage the mezzed or rooted mobs and keep an eye if they happen to break the mez or root. A well oiled group is a  joy to work with.
    Even WoW was like that through BC and maybe even WoTLK. I remember starting MMO's during the BC expansion and being afraid of getting into PVE dungeons because it seemed so overly complicated and I was afraid of messing up. I spent all my time in BGs because I wasn't afraid of dying and being bad. When you're expected to die, no one says anything, and when there's so many people you can hide amongst, you can learn on your own time.

    I imagine part of the reason why PVE has been simplified is because a lot of people had the same fears I did. Sure now that I'm a vet that sort of complicated gameplay doesn't sound so bad. But the genre needs as many players as it can attract, and that sort of strategy isn't something everybody wants when other people are relying on you. In solo RPG's there's no stress so people can do stuff like that. 
  • botrytisbotrytis Member RarePosts: 3,363
    I remember before Guild Wars 2 release, and all the Anet statements, around these boards and others, "Trinity" became somewhat of a bad word. Then more and more games abandoned the Trinity. I knew most games like this would turn into Zerg fest. 

    I am curious if that recent surge of Non Trinity MMOs has killed the Anti-Trinity fad. Because the Anti-Trinity rage was boarderline Anti-WoW levels on these MMOs forums.

    There is nothing wrong with what GW 2 is doing. If you want a Trinity game - go play one. Just don't force it on games that are not designed for it. That is what was going on - people raged that they couldn't play 'Trinity' types in GW2 and other games that do not have the Trinity.


  • VortisVortis Member UncommonPosts: 1

    Don't forget about slows in EQ1. The mobs hit so fast you almost had to have a Shaman or Enchanter,  (Beastlord after Luclin) to debuff the mobs attack speed so you could tank it. Which made enchanters even more sought after. Although Shaman had the most powerful slows and a way to debuff the same resistance their slows used.  Just one more example of how the trinity was more than just tanking and healing, and that's not even mentioning pullers.
  • WizardryWizardry Member LegendaryPosts: 19,332
    I will try and lay out the most simplest example to explain why Trinity works.
    First of all do people actually fully understand what it means?

    A Tank:Now imagine your NON trinity game has a player taking damage,well how does he hold up taking enormous damage if he is not a Tank?A Tank as the Trinity is represented is a character ROLE that allows that character to take enormous damage than NO OTHER class can take.SO by default if other classes that can dps and nuke can take THAT kind of hate/damage,the game is TOO EASY.

    I am talking about threshold gaming,every timed turn is possible death,your fighting mobs with incredible special attacks  or mobs that are simple 12 levels higher than you.So if you do not have  a dedicated healer,then you should die and if a player is always watching to heal,then that WOULD be a healer role lmao,weather a game wants to admit it or not.




    Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.

  • QuarterStackQuarterStack Member RarePosts: 546
    edited February 2017
    DMKano said:
    There was never a "fad".

    There are just games that have more clearly group defined roles, than others.

    Both "trinity" and "non-trinity" games continue to exist just fine 
    Nah, there was definitely an "anti-Trinity", "the Trinity is dead" sentiment going on for a while. It came along with the hype leading up to GW2's launch, and persisted for some time after, 'til people realized that in "eliminating a problem" (which arguably wasn't really a problem to begin with), it only introduced new ones. 

    I think there are still people who hate the trinity and all this. But it's definitely lost the hysteria that had built up around it for a while.
  • GhavriggGhavrigg Member RarePosts: 1,308
    I kinda prefer not having the trinity, because I really don't enjoy class restrictions so I have to play a specific way depending on which class I choose from the start that I think looks best. It's made worse in games like FFXIV (which I still love, though more for the story/world/atmosphere and stuff) where I'm locked into a specific playstyle, with one type of weapon, so half the classes bore me because I don't like how they look, or what weapon is used, and the rest I like the look of, but don't enjoy the role/playstyle.

    Still, after playing GW2 and how boring that was without the trinity, I guess all I said above is still the best way to go about things. Though the lack of trinity wasn't necessarily what made GW2 boring to me, I guess; the structure of the trinity does seem to allow for more exciting fights and necessary cooperation beyond just spamming abilities and dodging.

    Oh well, screw it, I think I just said a lot of nothing by the end there. lol
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    kitarad said:
    filmoret said:
    Trinity dungeon conversation.


    Healer-  I'm gonna cast heal.
    Tank-  I'm gonna pull mobs and taunt them.
    Dps-  I'm gonna shoot arrows and do damage.


    Yea thats some real strategy you got going there.
    No its a tad more complicated then that.

    Tank - I will pull the front two mobs chances are the back four will come.
    Enchanter - I'll mez the healer.
    Bard - I'll kite the other two while weaving buff songs in between
    Wizard or druid - I'll root the 4th melee mob away from others and DPS the two mobs the tank is tanking concentrating on marked target first. 
    Cleric - I'll keep everyone alive but main heals for tank.

    As soon as the two mobs the tank is tanking are dead the bard brings the two he was kiting and takes over kiting the rooted and mezzed ones because of resistance to both second application of mez and root. Druid spirit of the wolf does not work indoors so they cannot kite inside dungeons. However every one must also pay attention and not damage the mezzed or rooted mobs and keep an eye if they happen to break the mez or root. A well oiled group is a  joy to work with.
    What you described is not trinity dungeon.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • Redfeather75Redfeather75 Member UncommonPosts: 230
    edited February 2017
    I haven't seen as much bashing of the trinity mechanic, or bashing of the bashing of the trinity mechanic in quite a while. I do remember it happening when GW2 was in development and talking about itself as being unique.
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,939
    filmoret said:
    kitarad said:
    filmoret said:
    Trinity dungeon conversation.


    Healer-  I'm gonna cast heal.
    Tank-  I'm gonna pull mobs and taunt them.
    Dps-  I'm gonna shoot arrows and do damage.


    Yea thats some real strategy you got going there.
    No its a tad more complicated then that.

    Tank - I will pull the front two mobs chances are the back four will come.
    Enchanter - I'll mez the healer.
    Bard - I'll kite the other two while weaving buff songs in between
    Wizard or druid - I'll root the 4th melee mob away from others and DPS the two mobs the tank is tanking concentrating on marked target first. 
    Cleric - I'll keep everyone alive but main heals for tank.

    As soon as the two mobs the tank is tanking are dead the bard brings the two he was kiting and takes over kiting the rooted and mezzed ones because of resistance to both second application of mez and root. Druid spirit of the wolf does not work indoors so they cannot kite inside dungeons. However every one must also pay attention and not damage the mezzed or rooted mobs and keep an eye if they happen to break the mez or root. A well oiled group is a  joy to work with.
    What you described is not trinity dungeon.
    What you experienced was a shallow form of the trinity hence your clueless post but it's okay many people have only experienced the watered down version or a dungeon on speed. Take comfort in your version then if it makes you think that the trinity has no depth, those of us who played Everquest and the older WoW know better.

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,939
    edited February 2017
    I haven't seen as much bashing of the trinity mechanic, or bashing of the bashing of the trinity mechanic in quite a while. I do remember it happening when GW2 was in development and talking about itself as being unique.
    That actually occurred because people were arguing about how things would devolve if DPS was the main mechanic and there were many bitter arguments  on it here in several threads but there were other games too where you could play without the trinity like City of Heroes/Villains and create groups based on other mechanics that did not revolve around the holy trinity. These arguments were also forwarded supporting GW2.

    I thought GW2 had a good idea but what happened when you were not doing PvP or a dungeon in GW2 was that people were not really working together by intent  and there was a general impression that the players were throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the mob to kill it. However like City of X it had remarkable flexibility and could provide interesting encounters when played well. Therefore those who played their classes well in the company of their guild or group who knew how to use the combos and their class skills experienced the full diversity and excitement GW2 could bring to a game. You should watch some of the very interesting early videos of PvP and dungeons (before the stack in wall corner mechanic) encounters where Engineers,Mesmers and Elementalist played their classes like maestros. I never got to experience it myself since I am very slow with my hands but I really envied the players who knew their A-game in GW2.

    Even in Everquest you could play without maximum crowd control provided by the enchanter or bard but it made the encounter very dicey so people preferred to take CC with them into the dungeons. Everquest actually had a lot of depth but people generally played it safe because of the heavy experience loss and other dire consequences like the nasty corpse retrieval.
    Post edited by kitarad on

  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,227
    Yes the "fad" per se is dead. Nobody cares to tout their game as conforming to or breaking the mold. As a USP it is gone. 

    Games still do break and conform but it is just part of the system now. The trinity does offer ease of design and provide solid direction in creating encounters. 

    Breaking it does call for creating a new formula and that sometimes goes... Badly.  =P 

    But the legacy of old still is soo ingrained in the medium that people keep talking about tank, healer and damage even if it is not really present in a game since the concepts them self are more or less universal at this point. New people coming in to the hobby learns from the old and the concept of the tank, the healer and the damage dealer (or other names such as striker and offense) do have such a wide spread outside of gaming... They are almost universal in the more literal sense as most cultures on earth have a concept of them (tank perhaps being the least spread as it refers to a fairly modern occurrence). 

    This have been a good conversation

  • ScotScot Member LegendaryPosts: 23,124
    edited February 2017
    I did perceive a move in the industry to remove trinity and replace it with something players who don't play MMOs are familiar with. If you think about it, that's been a hallmark of MMO history, make MMOs conform to the expectations of players who do not normally play them. God forbid there is a single gamer out there that should find anything in MMOs unfamiliar and off putting. Well off putting in the gaming companies eyes who see anything not immediately understandable in a game as an issue.

    So we ended up with zergfests, as having removed trinity they could find nothing better or even as good to replace it. I do like action combat, but that does not mean there has to be no roles. Many games have combat roles with action combat. Most of the MMOs trying out action combat marginalised the roles to insignificance. Every player can heal, so there goes one role out the window.

    Action combat and the zerg are here to stay, trinity requires some thought and players learning how to do it. Expecting players to occasionally think is now perceived as a failure of gaming design.


  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    kitarad said:
    filmoret said:
    kitarad said:
    filmoret said:
    Trinity dungeon conversation.


    Healer-  I'm gonna cast heal.
    Tank-  I'm gonna pull mobs and taunt them.
    Dps-  I'm gonna shoot arrows and do damage.


    Yea thats some real strategy you got going there.
    No its a tad more complicated then that.

    Tank - I will pull the front two mobs chances are the back four will come.
    Enchanter - I'll mez the healer.
    Bard - I'll kite the other two while weaving buff songs in between
    Wizard or druid - I'll root the 4th melee mob away from others and DPS the two mobs the tank is tanking concentrating on marked target first. 
    Cleric - I'll keep everyone alive but main heals for tank.

    As soon as the two mobs the tank is tanking are dead the bard brings the two he was kiting and takes over kiting the rooted and mezzed ones because of resistance to both second application of mez and root. Druid spirit of the wolf does not work indoors so they cannot kite inside dungeons. However every one must also pay attention and not damage the mezzed or rooted mobs and keep an eye if they happen to break the mez or root. A well oiled group is a  joy to work with.
    What you described is not trinity dungeon.
    What you experienced was a shallow form of the trinity hence your clueless post but it's okay many people have only experienced the watered down version or a dungeon on speed. Take comfort in your version then if it makes you think that the trinity has no depth, those of us who played Everquest and the older WoW know better.
    Just because the trinity was involved does not make it a trinity dungeon.  Most games only have 3-5 man dungeons.  You described 6 different roles.  Making it much more then a trinity dungeon.  I'm far from clueless dude so maybe you should pay attention first.  What you described is what we as players want to experience.  What I described is what we have been given for the most part.
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • Loke666Loke666 Member EpicPosts: 21,441
    I remember before Guild Wars 2 release, and all the Anet statements, around these boards and others, "Trinity" became somewhat of a bad word. Then more and more games abandoned the Trinity. I knew most games like this would turn into Zerg fest. 

    I am curious if that recent surge of Non Trinity MMOs has killed the Anti-Trinity fad. Because the Anti-Trinity rage was boarderline Anti-WoW levels on these MMOs forums.
    Fad? The problem was more that every single game a few years back used the exact same group dynamics and therefor felt just like eachother to play.

    Neither the trinity nor any none trinity game have perfect mechanics, some are better then others but the MMOs need to try new things and stick out from eachother, or people eventually tire of the genre.

    What you consider the anti trinity fad was just people tiring of the clonewars that raged a few years back.
  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,939
    edited February 2017
    One of the old threads on GW2

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/364916/dungeons-the-lack-of-the-trinity/p1

    If you want some evidence about the origins of the Holy Trinity existing before  WoW here's an example citing enchanter as the third part of this trinity. Date of that post is March 17th 2004. Of course the origins were in Ruins of Kunark so even older but this is to prove to those who keep insisting that WoW created this term and that it was DPS and not Crowd Control. Of course the term later changed to DPS instead.

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/god-without-the-holy-trinity.29783/

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/grats-on-balancing-expansions-around-the-holy-trinity-again.29322/

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,939
    filmoret said:
    kitarad said:
    filmoret said:
    kitarad said:
    filmoret said:
    Trinity dungeon conversation.


    Healer-  I'm gonna cast heal.
    Tank-  I'm gonna pull mobs and taunt them.
    Dps-  I'm gonna shoot arrows and do damage.


    Yea thats some real strategy you got going there.
    No its a tad more complicated then that.

    Tank - I will pull the front two mobs chances are the back four will come.
    Enchanter - I'll mez the healer.
    Bard - I'll kite the other two while weaving buff songs in between
    Wizard or druid - I'll root the 4th melee mob away from others and DPS the two mobs the tank is tanking concentrating on marked target first. 
    Cleric - I'll keep everyone alive but main heals for tank.

    As soon as the two mobs the tank is tanking are dead the bard brings the two he was kiting and takes over kiting the rooted and mezzed ones because of resistance to both second application of mez and root. Druid spirit of the wolf does not work indoors so they cannot kite inside dungeons. However every one must also pay attention and not damage the mezzed or rooted mobs and keep an eye if they happen to break the mez or root. A well oiled group is a  joy to work with.
    What you described is not trinity dungeon.
    What you experienced was a shallow form of the trinity hence your clueless post but it's okay many people have only experienced the watered down version or a dungeon on speed. Take comfort in your version then if it makes you think that the trinity has no depth, those of us who played Everquest and the older WoW know better.
    Just because the trinity was involved does not make it a trinity dungeon.  Most games only have 3-5 man dungeons.  You described 6 different roles.  Making it much more then a trinity dungeon.  I'm far from clueless dude so maybe you should pay attention first.  What you described is what we as players want to experience.  What I described is what we have been given for the most part.
    I wrote wizard or druid that is a 5 man group. Cannot really talk to someone who cannot even count properly. Plus in Everquest where the whole idea of the Trinity was born we had 6 man groups. 

  • AzothAzoth Member UncommonPosts: 840
    Aori said:

    Aori said:
    cheyane said:
    Actually it originated in Everquest and it meant Warrior ,Cleric and Enchanter so it included a tank,heal and crowd control. With later games it changed to become tank,heal and dps.
    I didn't play EQ long enough to see the term. It was never uttered in any other MMO pre-wow that I played. Actually it wasn't until around the time of TBC/Wrath that I even started seeing the term used.
    Wait what? Even I played Vanilla WoW and remember people asking for healers(since I played a healer) also they would ask for a Protection Warrior (since that was the only tank back then) and people asking for DPS, and people asking for CC aka Crowd Control (which was Mage or Rogue)...
    Follow the conversation, was talking about the term Trinity and what it meant. Its meaning has apparently changed definition over the years but even then, it wasn't a common topic or term until say 2007-2008. At least from my experience, that was when it revolved around Tank/DPS/Heals.
    It was heavily used in early EQ. Trinity was tank/healer/control, it was a group design that was the most effective. The holy trinity (the best at it) was warrior/cleric/enchanter.
  • PhryPhry Member LegendaryPosts: 11,004
    Azoth said:
    Aori said:

    Aori said:
    cheyane said:
    Actually it originated in Everquest and it meant Warrior ,Cleric and Enchanter so it included a tank,heal and crowd control. With later games it changed to become tank,heal and dps.
    I didn't play EQ long enough to see the term. It was never uttered in any other MMO pre-wow that I played. Actually it wasn't until around the time of TBC/Wrath that I even started seeing the term used.
    Wait what? Even I played Vanilla WoW and remember people asking for healers(since I played a healer) also they would ask for a Protection Warrior (since that was the only tank back then) and people asking for DPS, and people asking for CC aka Crowd Control (which was Mage or Rogue)...
    Follow the conversation, was talking about the term Trinity and what it meant. Its meaning has apparently changed definition over the years but even then, it wasn't a common topic or term until say 2007-2008. At least from my experience, that was when it revolved around Tank/DPS/Heals.
    It was heavily used in early EQ. Trinity was tank/healer/control, it was a group design that was the most effective. The holy trinity (the best at it) was warrior/cleric/enchanter.
    No no no, the best mix for the trinity in EQ was Monk, Wizard, Druid  :p
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 9,133
    Phry said:
    Azoth said:
    Aori said:

    Aori said:
    cheyane said:
    Actually it originated in Everquest and it meant Warrior ,Cleric and Enchanter so it included a tank,heal and crowd control. With later games it changed to become tank,heal and dps.
    I didn't play EQ long enough to see the term. It was never uttered in any other MMO pre-wow that I played. Actually it wasn't until around the time of TBC/Wrath that I even started seeing the term used.
    Wait what? Even I played Vanilla WoW and remember people asking for healers(since I played a healer) also they would ask for a Protection Warrior (since that was the only tank back then) and people asking for DPS, and people asking for CC aka Crowd Control (which was Mage or Rogue)...
    Follow the conversation, was talking about the term Trinity and what it meant. Its meaning has apparently changed definition over the years but even then, it wasn't a common topic or term until say 2007-2008. At least from my experience, that was when it revolved around Tank/DPS/Heals.
    It was heavily used in early EQ. Trinity was tank/healer/control, it was a group design that was the most effective. The holy trinity (the best at it) was warrior/cleric/enchanter.
    No no no, the best mix for the trinity in EQ was Monk, Wizard, Druid  :p
    Good one Phry 
    Garrus Signature
  • filmoretfilmoret Member EpicPosts: 4,906
    kitarad said:
    filmoret said:
    kitarad said:
    filmoret said:
    kitarad said:
    filmoret said:
    Trinity dungeon conversation.


    Healer-  I'm gonna cast heal.
    Tank-  I'm gonna pull mobs and taunt them.
    Dps-  I'm gonna shoot arrows and do damage.


    Yea thats some real strategy you got going there.
    No its a tad more complicated then that.

    Tank - I will pull the front two mobs chances are the back four will come.
    Enchanter - I'll mez the healer.
    Bard - I'll kite the other two while weaving buff songs in between
    Wizard or druid - I'll root the 4th melee mob away from others and DPS the two mobs the tank is tanking concentrating on marked target first. 
    Cleric - I'll keep everyone alive but main heals for tank.

    As soon as the two mobs the tank is tanking are dead the bard brings the two he was kiting and takes over kiting the rooted and mezzed ones because of resistance to both second application of mez and root. Druid spirit of the wolf does not work indoors so they cannot kite inside dungeons. However every one must also pay attention and not damage the mezzed or rooted mobs and keep an eye if they happen to break the mez or root. A well oiled group is a  joy to work with.
    What you described is not trinity dungeon.
    What you experienced was a shallow form of the trinity hence your clueless post but it's okay many people have only experienced the watered down version or a dungeon on speed. Take comfort in your version then if it makes you think that the trinity has no depth, those of us who played Everquest and the older WoW know better.
    Just because the trinity was involved does not make it a trinity dungeon.  Most games only have 3-5 man dungeons.  You described 6 different roles.  Making it much more then a trinity dungeon.  I'm far from clueless dude so maybe you should pay attention first.  What you described is what we as players want to experience.  What I described is what we have been given for the most part.
    I wrote wizard or druid that is a 5 man group. Cannot really talk to someone who cannot even count properly. Plus in Everquest where the whole idea of the Trinity was born we had 6 man groups. 
    So salty bro.  Get over yourself.  Now we gonna start having a discussion about the origins of the trinity instead of the OP topic?  Fact is when you queue for a dungeon in most mmorpg's you have 3 roles and thats pretty much it.  There's no kiting or cc or anything else for that matter.  Just aggro, dps, healing
    Are you onto something or just on something?
  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,534
    edited February 2017
    pffff, this anti-trinity bullshit was one thing "uh look, we are totaly not WoW! we are totaly different!"

    the prob, there were only so many people who disliked WoW, bc there were (and i dare to say still are) still more who like it :)

    also. this "trinity bullshit" never came from WoW to start with, but people are stubborn :>

    kind of a dog chasing it's tail.... kinda...

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • Redfeather75Redfeather75 Member UncommonPosts: 230
    edited February 2017
    kitarad said:
    I haven't seen as much bashing of the trinity mechanic, or bashing of the bashing of the trinity mechanic in quite a while. I do remember it happening when GW2 was in development and talking about itself as being unique.
    That actually occurred because people were arguing about how things would devolve if DPS was the main mechanic and there were many bitter arguments  on it here in several threads but there were other games too where you could play without the trinity like City of Heroes/Villains and create groups based on other mechanics that did not revolve around the holy trinity. These arguments were also forwarded supporting GW2.

    I thought GW2 had a good idea but what happened when you were not doing PvP or a dungeon in GW2 was that people were not really working together by intent  and there was a general impression that the players were throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the mob to kill it. However like City of X it had remarkable flexibility and could provide interesting encounters when played well. Therefore those who played their classes well in the company of their guild or group who knew how to use the combos and their class skills experienced the full diversity and excitement GW2 could bring to a game. You should watch some of the very interesting early videos of PvP and dungeons (before the stack in wall corner mechanic) encounters where Engineers,Mesmers and Elementalist played their classes like maestros. I never got to experience it myself since I am very slow with my hands but I really envied the players who knew their A-game in GW2.

    Even in Everquest you could play without maximum crowd control provided by the enchanter or bard but it made the encounter very dicey so people preferred to take CC with them into the dungeons. Everquest actually had a lot of depth but people generally played it safe because of the heavy experience loss and other dire consequences like the nasty corpse retrieval.
    I was late to mmorpgs, but I started with everquest 2. OMG, dying deep in a dungeon was a nightmare. I know what you mean by playing it safe. We dungeon crawled very slowly and never deviated from our pull, taunt, slow dps rotations. Taking risks was just not worth it considering how punishing the game was when things went south.

    As for GW2, I hardly play it anymore, but I played it enough lately to see there are devs there that are figuring out how to make interesting bosses and trash mob encounters.
    Mobs and bosses introduced, since they started living world season 3 content, are noticeably more nuanced and require different strategies/mixtures of cc/support/dps to handle effectively. It's so noticeable that I could tell it was clearly by design.
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