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did the Anti-Trinity fad die yet?

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  • ThaneThane Member EpicPosts: 3,534
    edited February 2017
    pffff, this anti-trinity bullshit was one thing "uh look, we are totaly not WoW! we are totaly different!"

    the prob, there were only so many people who disliked WoW, bc there were (and i dare to say still are) still more who like it :)

    also. this "trinity bullshit" never came from WoW to start with, but people are stubborn :>

    kind of a dog chasing it's tail.... kinda...

    "I'll never grow up, never grow up, never grow up! Not me!"

  • Redfeather75Redfeather75 Member UncommonPosts: 230
    edited February 2017
    kitarad said:
    I haven't seen as much bashing of the trinity mechanic, or bashing of the bashing of the trinity mechanic in quite a while. I do remember it happening when GW2 was in development and talking about itself as being unique.
    That actually occurred because people were arguing about how things would devolve if DPS was the main mechanic and there were many bitter arguments  on it here in several threads but there were other games too where you could play without the trinity like City of Heroes/Villains and create groups based on other mechanics that did not revolve around the holy trinity. These arguments were also forwarded supporting GW2.

    I thought GW2 had a good idea but what happened when you were not doing PvP or a dungeon in GW2 was that people were not really working together by intent  and there was a general impression that the players were throwing everything and the kitchen sink at the mob to kill it. However like City of X it had remarkable flexibility and could provide interesting encounters when played well. Therefore those who played their classes well in the company of their guild or group who knew how to use the combos and their class skills experienced the full diversity and excitement GW2 could bring to a game. You should watch some of the very interesting early videos of PvP and dungeons (before the stack in wall corner mechanic) encounters where Engineers,Mesmers and Elementalist played their classes like maestros. I never got to experience it myself since I am very slow with my hands but I really envied the players who knew their A-game in GW2.

    Even in Everquest you could play without maximum crowd control provided by the enchanter or bard but it made the encounter very dicey so people preferred to take CC with them into the dungeons. Everquest actually had a lot of depth but people generally played it safe because of the heavy experience loss and other dire consequences like the nasty corpse retrieval.
    I was late to mmorpgs, but I started with everquest 2. OMG, dying deep in a dungeon was a nightmare. I know what you mean by playing it safe. We dungeon crawled very slowly and never deviated from our pull, taunt, slow dps rotations. Taking risks was just not worth it considering how punishing the game was when things went south.

    As for GW2, I hardly play it anymore, but I played it enough lately to see there are devs there that are figuring out how to make interesting bosses and trash mob encounters.
    Mobs and bosses introduced, since they started living world season 3 content, are noticeably more nuanced and require different strategies/mixtures of cc/support/dps to handle effectively. It's so noticeable that I could tell it was clearly by design.
  • tawesstawess Member EpicPosts: 4,227
    Meh... i first came across "trinity" ideas back in the 90´s with PnP RPGS of the fantasy variety. You wanted someone who could take a lot of damage and act as a wall. You wanted someone in the party who could heal or knew medicine (depending on the game) and then you filled the rest with people who did damage and had some other skill like sneaking or bartering or could cast damage spells if the healer could not do that. 

    This have been a good conversation

  • MMOExposedMMOExposed Member RarePosts: 7,344
    kitarad said:
    One of the old threads on GW2

    http://forums.mmorpg.com/discussion/364916/dungeons-the-lack-of-the-trinity/p1

    If you want some evidence about the origins of the Holy Trinity existing before  WoW here's an example citing enchanter as the third part of this trinity. Date of that post is March 17th 2004. Of course the origins were in Ruins of Kunark so even older but this is to prove to those who keep insisting that WoW created this term and that it was DPS and not Crowd Control. Of course the term later changed to DPS instead.

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/god-without-the-holy-trinity.29783/

    https://forums.daybreakgames.com/eq/index.php?threads/grats-on-balancing-expansions-around-the-holy-trinity-again.29322/

    http://www.guildwars2.com/global/includes/images/en/healthcare-thumb.jpg

    I remember all of these back then. 

    Philosophy of MMO Game Design

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Member RarePosts: 4,574
    tawess said:
    Meh... i first came across "trinity" ideas back in the 90´s with PnP RPGS of the fantasy variety. You wanted someone who could take a lot of damage and act as a wall. You wanted someone in the party who could heal or knew medicine (depending on the game) and then you filled the rest with people who did damage and had some other skill like sneaking or bartering or could cast damage spells if the healer could not do that. 
    There was a bit more strategy due to it being turn based.  Not all mobs would v line to one character.  Usually, you had multiple characters like fighter, paladin, cleric, or ranger (possible even druid (especially if the druid was a fighter/druid combo) who could take one or two of the mobs before they got to your mage.  A bow-wielding character might pick off enemies before they get close.  A rogue might circle behind and pick off lightly armored targets with stealth and backstab.  They would also look for traps. On a turn by turn scenario, things are a lot different.   Mages could only cast spells once per rest (every 8 hours).  This meant they were usually sitting in the back using their sling until an important time presented itself. Introducing game mechanics like Taunt changed things a lot.  In general, combat was fun in early MMOs, but got a lot less realistic.  The way things worked changed how classes functioned in games like D&D.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread Member EpicPosts: 7,254
    Bashing and praising have both left the building for the most part. Every game is different and this type of design tends to lie on a spectrum. Mutual exclusivity was a stupid viewpoint from the beginning.
  • AdamantineAdamantine Member RarePosts: 4,846
    Loke666 said:
    Fad? The problem was more that every single game a few years back used the exact same group dynamics and therefor felt just like eachother to play.
    Hrr, hrr.

    I disagree.

    I played three "trinity" MMOs in total: Lineage 2, Guild Wars, and Vanguard. I can assure you they could have been hardly be even more different. Same group dynamics ? Nope. Not at all.

    And when you think about it, "Trinity" simply means different players specialize into different roles. How exactly that turns out might vary quite a bit.

    For example, an alternative trinity to regular tank, heal, dps is tank, heal, crowd control. Which personally I find preferable - I think everybody should do damage. Other possible tasks include off tanking, buffing of allies / debuffing of opponents, pulling etc.

    And besides, since unlike some other people my idea of MMOs is "find the right one for you and then play it for years" instead of "try a new MMO every I dunno 2 months or so" it wouldnt even have bothered me if that was true, haha.

    And finally, what was the fix of GW2 to this problem, anyway ? Everyone became a dps. Instead of "always the same group dynamics" you got "no group dynamics at all". Yikes ! Thats certainly a poor solution.


    Taking risks was just not worth it considering how punishing the game was when things went south.
    Typical result of a too harsh death penalty. Too weak death penalties suck too, though.




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