I'll say it again: Pantheon will flop

Nanfoodle · February 2017

Mendel said:
Very solid post. I have actively tried to raise some questions about Pantheon, its features, designs and goals on these boards. There have been far more blind following of this game than any others I have seen come along. It has divided this community.

Some comments.

a) Opinions on Brad vary wildly. I'll pass here.

Nanfoodle: He no longer has anything to do with the money. Big reason why I pledged. As for his work, been a fan since 1999 both for EQ1 and Vanguard.

b) Kickstarter and Crowdfunding. The number of supporters raised was very suspect. Not from a dollar amount raised (although that was a concern, which subsequent investment is reported to have solved the immediate issue), but the numbers are very short of what might be a considered as a sustainable customer base. Only around 3,000 people were in the original kickstarter, and that might only represent an initial base of 30,000 players.

Also, the cost for forum access to their site is listed at $15/month. They may want to avoid what they consider as unnecessary noise, but they've also predetermined that the only ideas / opinions they want to hear are those that support them. Their audience is a fiscally-enforced bunch of yes-men.

Nanfoodle: I dont think any company really discloses their funding and where they get it from. Not really outside the norm. As for the yes men. At this point there is not much to challenge. Would need details to say yes and no to. I have been on their forums for a few days and there is very little to talk about. But there has been feedback and VR is listening. When they came out with the class/race combos. The fans were up in arms about no Elf Cleric. The devs came back and said they are listening. So we will see if thats active listening.

c) Agreed. The mystery 'Angel Investor' may have contributed $1 or $100 million. No one outside VR really knows.

d) The base game is very much EQ1. The classes are almost identical, the group tactics that have been shown so far only demonstrate the same pile on a mob, while specialists try to keep everyone alive and reduce the encounter to a pile-on-1 -- exactly the same as was present in 1999 EQ. Yes, the developers have made a list of promises (The Pantheon Difference) that exceed the basics, but there is no direct visual evidence of these systems / features in action. Some are only a new label on things ("dispositions") that have been in MMORPGs since mobs were married with AI, no matter how rudimentary. The problem is, already a good number of casual posters are already salivating about the current state of an "EQ1 game with modern graphics". That foregoes any further development of those 'differences', and this is likely to result in a group 'Release-It-Now' mentality and may contribute to pressuring the development team into actually rushing the product out the door, depending on the mysterious financing and other factors.

Nanfoodle: Yes much of the core is EQ1 at heart but this is what they were selling us on. If you read the FAQ, there is also allot of stuff thats not EQ1. As they say in their FAQ, they only took what made sense. If they deliver, they are not playing it safe. Pantheon will be its own thing.

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For the record, MMORPG.com named EQ:Next the Game of the Show for an industry show in 2013. From all evidence, this was based entirely on a dog-and-pony show of marketing videos, not any form of near-playable version.

Nanfoodle: IMO, EQN still should have gotten best in show that year for the options out there and what SoE was showing off. Storybricks and Voxel world. If they had pulled it off it would have been huge. They did fall flat on their faces. Difference here with Pantheon. This was the players voting this award.

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I really do hope that Pantheon is finished, with all the promised features intact. I do not know if these features will make the final cut, will be technically feasible, or will be anywhere near the promise. I hope that Pantheon will draw a crowd that can sustain the company for years to come. My suspicions are that the initial population won't be as sizable as many expect, and that the brutal, unforgiving 'old-school' mindset won't help in retaining customers -- people will remember the problems that caused them to quit EQ1 in the first place.

Nanfoodle: I hope they do as well. My real hope in this, is that it shows developers that MOBA style combat is not the only option for MMOs. That it makes developers take a new look at support and CC classes. Good post BTW.

baphamet · February 2017

Thebeasttt said:

I mean TESO is awful compared to Skyrim and it's still somehow MMO of the year.

speak for yourself, i can't even play skyrim anymore because of ESO. the graphics are better in the skyrim special edition but the game play is a game breaker for me after playing ESO and other much more fluid combat systems.

Avanah · February 2017

Regnor said:

Sure, it's got a small but loyal following right now, because there is no game yet. When there is, just watch as reality sets in and people realized why they disliked EQ so much. Forced group play? Great, if you like sitting around for hours LFG.
When McQuaid left all his Vanguard team stranded in the parking lot with pink slips and not even the decency to face them, it was understood that he would never again get money to start a game company. And then crowd sourcing happened and the suckers poured in.
No matter how hard you try, you can never re-create the past. Nostalgia is not a good basis for game design. Pantheon looks good on paper to all those who long to re-live EQ and who romanticize about "the good old days". But the genre has moved on and evolved for a reason: few diehards want to go back there now.
Pantheon may never get off the ground, because the company is poised to run out of money long before they have a compelling experience. But if by some miracle they do manage to launch a game, it will be a disastrous launch (that's McQuaid's track record, after all) and then after a few days of misery, players will realize that the cold reality of the actual game experience, cannot possibly live up to their hopes and dreams to re-live the "glory days" of Qeynos and Freeport. The game may not fail right away but, based on what I've seen so far and what I know of this developer, it seems likely to be a complete and utter commercial flop.

You seem to forget that not everyone (unlike you) wants an Easy mode, unchallenging, brainless, handholding game like WoW (for example).
Nostalgia is what got us all here in the first place (I'm trying not to put you in your place evilly).

People want to relive the experience of the past where choices mattered, where watching your back mattered, where selling certain things or stealing certain things mattered.
When it was tough for two people to have the SAme EXACT item at the same time.

So, you are trying to tell us people want the hand holding, boring, no consequences, repetitive stuff that WoW (Example) is today?

I quit WoW 4 months ago because of those items I listed. Why pay $14.99/month to have the same gear that others have? Or to repeat the same raids over and over?
Who cares if you have an iLVL 1000 character? No one else does in WoW.

All WoW is today is a PAID CHAT ROOM!

So, if you think Pantheon, Chronicles of Elyria ect are going to fail......
You better hope they do for WoW's Sake.

PS. EQ is the reason WoW exists. bet you didn't know that.

Now, off you go...back to your paid Chat room.

/Signed
Taki..."Fires of Heaven" Ultima Online, 1997-99
Taki...Everquest Closed Beta, 1998-99. EQ..1999-2003
Taki... World of Warcraft Closed Beta, 2003-2004.
Avanah...World of Warcraft, Nov 2004- Oct 2016

Dullahan · February 2017

Mendel said:

Very solid post. I have actively tried to raise some questions about Pantheon, its features, designs and goals on these boards. There have been far more blind following of this game than any others I have seen come along. It has divided this community.

Actually, I think Pantheon's community seem to be far more moderate and skeptical than most due to issues in the past, the poor kickstarter, and the failings of Vanguard; all of which we acknowledge and are willing to discuss. We simply won't dwell on those things while denying what we've seen with our own eyes as you often have.

As to the community being divided, I'd say that's clearly not the case. Even the loose community on this forum seems to range from hopeful, to very cautiously optimistic. Those falling outside of that on both sides are outliers or probably not part of "the community".

Zuljan · February 2017

Mendel said:

Zuldan1 said:

As a Pantheon supporter and fan, I think these threads are good. Clearly, there is some bias/negativity and pinning very acute details without much evidence, but it lets those of us who do support it to give a chance for a rebuttle, and, in turn hopefully gain followers. Doubters of Pantheon, please read the following, open-minded, and tell me you honestly still disagree:

a) brad mcquaid is responsible for Everquest. That game did pretty well. VG failed, hard, and if you do the research, it's clear Brad wasnt the person at fault for this. SOE then rehired him again after buying out Sigil for VG...point is, player, coach, designer business owner; you have wins and you have losses. He is a genius and world/game development. 1 bad day doesn't make you a flop.

b) some people mention the kickstarter backers and the forum activity on Pantheons official website. First of all, I personally was completely unaware they ever had a kickstarter, for Ive played 10+ mmos, and in the past year simply haven't been lurking around on any such sites. many people have expressed this and have asked to do more crowdfunding, and in respone it appears they've made pledging available. Also for forum activity YOU HAVE TO PAY TO COMMENT. This isn't for money (seriously 3$ or whatever is nothing); rather, it it acts as a filter to ensure only people who WANT to see the game succeed will offer input; from suggestions, questions, observations etc. This is, however, why you see so few "people" and comments on the site. They really, really listen to the community. They have HIRED someone from the community because of their outstanding work, so they don't want to go through hundreds of troll/hateful posts, as they are looking for real, useful suggestions, feedback etc to improve game quality (game is pre-alpha, they didn't even have rezz in game yet during videos).

c) none of us have any idea of what sort of private backers/investors they have and how much they contributed. They have a team of over 40 people working on thisgame (far more than I expected), and from the reserach I've done, that's a pretty respectable amount for an mmo, maybe outstanding amount for what some people call a "niche" game.

d) this isn't going to be Everquest recycled. People keep thinking this and I don't know why. They have specifically stated they are using modern mechanics (akin to vanguard) mixed in with theold EQ elements that made for the richet/most rewarding game experience youll ever have. Theyve gone into details, specifically stating they are making a new mana regen system in and out of combat to avoid sitting too long to med. This game is going to be new in so many ways.

Where there's smoke there's fire; this is the first game I've EVER seen on MMORPG.com make a top 10 list most populargames while still being in development... People want this game. Even the doubters really want it or at least want what fans/devs are saying the game "should/will be." What we all DON"t want, and I feel what is the real cause of doubt in the naysayers minds, is that this game is another everquest next, star wars Final fantasy 14 let down, with promises and promises, backing etc, and all for yet another MMO that inevitably fails, but this game has by far more interest and promise than any other game out on the market.

Very solid post. I have actively tried to raise some questions about Pantheon, its features, designs and goals on these boards. There have been far more blind following of this game than any others I have seen come along. It has divided this community.

Some comments.

a) Opinions on Brad vary wildly. I'll pass here.

b) Kickstarter and Crowdfunding. The number of supporters raised was very suspect. Not from a dollar amount raised (although that was a concern, which subsequent investment is reported to have solved the immediate issue), but the numbers are very short of what might be a considered as a sustainable customer base. Only around 3,000 people were in the original kickstarter, and that might only represent an initial base of 30,000 players.

Also, the cost for forum access to their site is listed at $15/month. They may want to avoid what they consider as unnecessary noise, but they've also predetermined that the only ideas / opinions they want to hear are those that support them. Their audience is a fiscally-enforced bunch of yes-men.

c) Agreed. The mystery 'Angel Investor' may have contributed $1 or $100 million. No one outside VR really knows.

d) The base game is very much EQ1. The classes are almost identical, the group tactics that have been shown so far only demonstrate the same pile on a mob, while specialists try to keep everyone alive and reduce the encounter to a pile-on-1 -- exactly the same as was present in 1999 EQ. Yes, the developers have made a list of promises (The Pantheon Difference) that exceed the basics, but there is no direct visual evidence of these systems / features in action. Some are only a new label on things ("dispositions") that have been in MMORPGs since mobs were married with AI, no matter how rudimentary. The problem is, already a good number of casual posters are already salivating about the current state of an "EQ1 game with modern graphics". That foregoes any further development of those 'differences', and this is likely to result in a group 'Release-It-Now' mentality and may contribute to pressuring the development team into actually rushing the product out the door, depending on the mysterious financing and other factors.

----------
For the record, MMORPG.com named EQ:Next the Game of the Show for an industry show in 2013. From all evidence, this was based entirely on a dog-and-pony show of marketing videos, not any form of near-playable version.

----------
I really do hope that Pantheon is finished, with all the promised features intact. I do not know if these features will make the final cut, will be technically feasible, or will be anywhere near the promise. I hope that Pantheon will draw a crowd that can sustain the company for years to come. My suspicions are that the initial population won't be as sizable as many expect, and that the brutal, unforgiving 'old-school' mindset won't help in retaining customers -- people will remember the problems that caused them to quit EQ1 in the first place.

All reasonable thoughts/observations. There are features/aspects we cannot assume for the better or worse yet...promises that haven't come to fruition, albeit nice progress for a pre alpha game is there and respectable. Just inportant for extremes of each side (blind followers of Pantheon and blind doubters of Pantheon) do rationalize things and be fair, otherwise it turns into arguments which doesn't help us come up with good things to ask/suggest/complain about to devs etc. I've pledged (small), and will wait to see the next video before raising my pledge or becoming a blind fanboy. Bottom line; only time will tell, but the hyperbolic naysaying/fanboying isn't helping any of us and can't be justified.

Vaross · February 2017

There's already another thread for discussing this topic, please keep the discussion there.

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I'll say it again: Pantheon will flop

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