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I'll say it again: Pantheon will flop

2

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  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Dullahan said:


    Pantheon development is going great. They still have to deliver the final product, but it's spiritual predecessor is by far the most referenced and reminisced over game on every major mmo forum for the last 10+ years. Hence the reason is totally crushed all the other hyped upcoming games like CoE, Crowfall, and the rest of the eastern ports.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/awards/players-choice-awards-most-wanted-mmo-of-2017-1000011456

    Only time will tell, but there's a huge audience waiting for a game like this.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/galleries/Dullahan/6274_pantheon



    Ok, so congrats to Pantheon on managing to rally enough people to "win" a poll here. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what that proves, exactly. I mean we've got another poll here where there were 2300 votes and Pantheon got just 0.7% of the vote. CoE had nearly 50% and Star Citizen had around 20%. 17 votes! 17 out of 2300! Honestly, it means very little. 

    And, NO, there isn't a huge audience waiting for a game with antiquated graphics! I'm not saying there won't be a very dedicated and loyal fan base for Pantheon, I'm sure there will be. However, there are other options that are coming up which just look more polished. In fact, I think that Ashes of Creation could be a sleeper. It's literally flown almost undetected for years. They haven't ramped up the hype machine until now, when they actually have something to show, and I feel like they will be able to capitalize on that more readily than something like Pantheon which has so much more uncertainty surrounding it. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
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  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 9,137
    edited February 2017
    Ashes Of Creation just got announced and already looks 100 times better than Pantheon. 
  • SovrathSovrath Member LegendaryPosts: 28,758
    edited February 2017
    Recore said:
    Ashes Of Creation just got announced and already looks 100 times better than Pantheon. 
    I'll have to slightly disagree with that. Oh sure, its aesthetics seem to be more polished but the game play in Pantheon "looks" a lot better in that we can see what we will be doing, how we will be playing it.


  • WellspringWellspring Member EpicPosts: 1,347
    Sovrath said:
    Recore said:
    Ashes Of Creation just got announced and already looks 100 times better than Pantheon. 
    I'll have to slightly disagree with that. Oh sure, it's aesthetics seem to be more polished but the game play in Pantheon "looks" a lot better in that we can see what we will be doing, how we will be playing it.
    Agreed. The videos released so far for Ashes of Creation have all just been teases at this point. Hardly enough information to conclude that it will be a better game.
    --------------------------------------------
  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Sovrath said:
    Recore said:
    Ashes Of Creation just got announced and already looks 100 times better than Pantheon. 
    I'll have to slightly disagree with that. Oh sure, it's aesthetics seem to be more polished but the game play in Pantheon "looks" a lot better in that we can see what we will be doing, how we will be playing it.
    Agreed. The videos released so far for Ashes of Creation have all just been teases at this point. Hardly enough information to conclude that it will be a better game.

    Sooooooooo, we're concluding how Pantheon is going to play? If nothing else, WoW has proven that a game can look like shit and still play well and be successful. I don't necessarily think that Pantheon is going to fail, per se, but I do believe that people are tooting horns a bit much that Pantheon simply cannot live up to the hype at this point. Although we could say that about a great number of games these days, too. 

    I think that Ashes promises a LOT of great systems. It also has people familiar with developing MMORPGs (EQ, EQ2, Vanguard, and more). The major difference is that they're showing "pre-alpha" footage a month after their effective announcement. They are, apparently, showing actual gameplay footage next week. All this and many people, as I've seen it eluded to before, think that this game is being developed by some dude in his mom's garage. That's a huge advantage. Oh! And you can't buy into their pre-alpha, lol. We'll see how long that lasts, though. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,367
    If Ashes of Creation was any kind of threat to Pantheon, we would be playing BDO or AA instead of having this discussion.

    What i saw in AoC was more or less the same than in those other two titles: flashing lights, one character one-shotting multiple mobs, caravan escorts, fortress sieges, etc. The game is not even out yet and i have a feeling i've played it already.
  • KabonKabon Member UncommonPosts: 78
    edited February 2017
    Ashes of Creation Video looked very nice. But i doubt the game physics will actually reflect the video at all. If it would and is not some sort of cutscene everytime, its very well done. And i wish Phanteon had some of thoose animations for spells or physics in there.

    About predictions over successfull MMos i believe alot of younger players do not even know what they would like at all. They just cant imagine something like a death penalty being positive for example. Since they never had a taste of older Mmos. It greaty depends on human psychology if some game decisions are cool. And the EverQuest sheme just worked for me (i was younger back then) and i believe it will work for alot other players out there (since human evolution couldn have changed human nature and what they like so fast). Even if they do not know it yet, because all of the watered down MMos out there.

    In EQ i raided to be better in groups or to be able to solo something i couldn before to get rich. I liked to be recognized by ppls. Thats unfortunatly almost impossible in modern MMos. Since its all instanced short lived and non exclusive.

  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,150
    deniter said:
    If Ashes of Creation was any kind of threat to Pantheon, we would be playing BDO or AA instead of having this discussion.

    What i saw in AoC was more or less the same than in those other two titles: flashing lights, one character one-shotting multiple mobs, caravan escorts, fortress sieges, etc. The game is not even out yet and i have a feeling i've played it already.
    You could say the same thing about Pantheon.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • deniterdeniter Member RarePosts: 1,367
    Torval said:
    deniter said:
    If Ashes of Creation was any kind of threat to Pantheon, we would be playing BDO or AA instead of having this discussion.

    What i saw in AoC was more or less the same than in those other two titles: flashing lights, one character one-shotting multiple mobs, caravan escorts, fortress sieges, etc. The game is not even out yet and i have a feeling i've played it already.
    You could say the same thing about Pantheon.
    Sure you could, if you were one of those fortunate people who had a chance to play EQ or some other titles in late 90's. I'm not one of them, so obviously i can't say that about Pantheon.
  • Mylan12Mylan12 Member UncommonPosts: 281
    As far as Ashes goes, none of the videos look like actual game play. They promise a lot like the dynamic world which is often promised but I not seen a game yet really deliver it. This concept is nothing new, I remember Horizons long ago trying to do it. For some reason reading the game info reminds me of EQnext.

    It be easier to predict the market for it if we had population stats of current games like EQ, LOTRO, ect.
    If they can release a stable and fairly well featured game, I think it could easily have in the 50K to 150K range. Probably some people would try it just because it does not have the in game store. Depends on how they keep it updated and such as to how many people stick around for month after month. In EQ and most group based games, a lot of the reason that I stuck around were because of friends in the game. Without that I would probably only last a few months as I have done with the new single player style MMORPG like SWTOR and similar. 
  • TorvalTorval Member LegendaryPosts: 20,150
    edited February 2017
    deniter said:
    Torval said:
    deniter said:
    If Ashes of Creation was any kind of threat to Pantheon, we would be playing BDO or AA instead of having this discussion.

    What i saw in AoC was more or less the same than in those other two titles: flashing lights, one character one-shotting multiple mobs, caravan escorts, fortress sieges, etc. The game is not even out yet and i have a feeling i've played it already.
    You could say the same thing about Pantheon.
    Sure you could, if you were one of those fortunate people who had a chance to play EQ or some other titles in late 90's. I'm not one of them, so obviously i can't say that about Pantheon.
    Or if you've ever played any DIKU derivative that has flooded the genre. If you're new to mmos and haven't ever played Pantheon before then you've not play AoC before either. Unless you're going for the invented narrative "alt facts" angle where Pantheon is the exception to all the facts we know are true.
    Fedora - A modern, free, and open source Operating System. https://getfedora.org/

    traveller, interloper, anomaly, iteration


  • TalonsinTalonsin Member EpicPosts: 3,619
    One reason for the small backer count is that many people are hesitant to back a game this early in development.  How many games have we seen come out of KS promising features and then by the time they launch, half those features have been removed or changed completely?

    Also, what do you consider a flop?  If I were to launch a game myself and it made a whopping 10k in revenue, that would be fantastic for me but terrible for Bioware.  If you mean it will not launch or close its doors shortly after launch, I guess we will have to just wait and see.
    "Sean (Murray) saying MP will be in the game is not remotely close to evidence that at the point of purchase people thought there was MP in the game."  - SEANMCAD

  • CrazKanukCrazKanuk Member EpicPosts: 6,130
    Talonsin said:
    One reason for the small backer count is that many people are hesitant to back a game this early in development.  How many games have we seen come out of KS promising features and then by the time they launch, half those features have been removed or changed completely?

    Also, what do you consider a flop?  If I were to launch a game myself and it made a whopping 10k in revenue, that would be fantastic for me but terrible for Bioware.  If you mean it will not launch or close its doors shortly after launch, I guess we will have to just wait and see.

    I don't think that's a great excuse for a small backer count. Shroud of the Avatar had like 22,000 backers for $1.9 million, Camelot: Unchained had 14k backers, as did Crowfall. Shoot, even Dual Universe had 8k backers, and CoE had 10k. 

    Honestly, though, I think the reason for the lack of backers for Pantheon was the state of the game at the time of the KS Campaign. I think Brad tried to ride the coat tails of his name and experience and it wasn't enough. John Romero suffered a similar fate and Mark Jacobs almost did, until they cobbled together a REALLY basic engine demo that probably saved them. 

    That being said, the BEST crowdfunding campaigns have shown an attachment of like 5-10 times their backer total. On the whole that number plays out relatively consistently, apart from viral projects like Shovel Knight. So if we used SotA as a gauge for what the market "looks like" then we could be talking about 220k players. So if I was Visionary Realms, I'd be looking at like 10% of that as my sweet spot. I think that's pretty ok, too. If I can get 22k subscribers, without having to go to a F2P model, that's not too shabby. That's like $15 million a year. More than enough to sustain something like Pantheon. 

    Crazkanuk

    ----------------
    Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
    Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
    Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
    Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
    Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
    ----------------

  • rochristrochrist Member UncommonPosts: 133
    Regnor said:

    Sure, it's got a small but loyal following right now, because there is no game yet. When there is, just watch as reality sets in and people realized why they disliked EQ so much. Forced group play? Great, if you like sitting around for hours LFG.

    When McQuaid left all his Vanguard team stranded in the parking lot with pink slips and not even the decency to face them, it was understood that he would never again get money to start a game company. And then crowd sourcing happened and the suckers poured in.

    No matter how hard you try, you can never re-create the past. Nostalgia is not a good basis for game design. Pantheon looks good on paper to all those who long to re-live EQ and who romanticize about "the good old days". But the genre has moved on and evolved for a reason: few diehards want to go back there now.

    Pantheon may never get off the ground, because the company is poised to run out of money long before they have a compelling experience. But if by some miracle they do manage to launch a game, it will be a disastrous launch (that's McQuaid's track record, after all) and then after a few days of misery, players will realize that the cold reality of the actual game experience, cannot possibly live up to their hopes and dreams to re-live the "glory days" of Qeynos and Freeport. The game may not fail right away but, based on what I've seen so far and what I know of this developer, it seems likely to be a complete and utter commercial flop.

    I know, right? EQ was SUCH an abject failure!
  • cheyanecheyane Member LegendaryPosts: 7,311
    I feel that this could have a modest success but it is the wild imagination of posters like delete that is damaging. Not only do they draw unnecessary attention of people who will ridicule their preposterous assertions it also places an unreasonable expectation on the game.

    I feel bad for the Pantheon team having to field this type of enthusiasm which they cannot turn down but at the same time wish that it would tone down to cast away the attention to Brad's previous missteps. It's normal that people will dwell on Vanguard and what happened and point to it as an example of what he can produce.

    Vanguard had a wonderful living world filled with interesting races and classes and also really nice stuff like its crafting and diplomacy which should be touted but the bad things were really worrisome. It is totally possible the technical side and the bugs will be even worse in a lower budget game.
    Chamber of Chains
  • xpsyncxpsync Member RarePosts: 1,208
    Not trying to be trolly, only being perfectly honest, the only response to the subject line of this thread is:

    Of course it will.
    There are two ways of arguing with a woman, and neither one works. - John Marston

    Currently Playing; SWG:Legends, Wow r/c, DoS2
  • HarikenHariken Member EpicPosts: 2,517
    The only people i know that care about any of these kickstarter mmo's are posting here or other sites like this. When i ask people outside of these sites about any of these games no one cares.
  • xpsyncxpsync Member RarePosts: 1,208
    Hariken said:
    The only people i know that care about any of these kickstarter mmo's are posting here or other sites like this. When i ask people outside of these sites about any of these games no one cares.
      That outside thing you speak of, is that... that place they call the Real World?
    There are two ways of arguing with a woman, and neither one works. - John Marston

    Currently Playing; SWG:Legends, Wow r/c, DoS2
  • MikehaMikeha Member EpicPosts: 9,137
    Sovrath said:
    Recore said:
    Ashes Of Creation just got announced and already looks 100 times better than Pantheon. 
    I'll have to slightly disagree with that. Oh sure, its aesthetics seem to be more polished but the game play in Pantheon "looks" a lot better in that we can see what we will be doing, how we will be playing it.



    I disagee. 

    Again this is just my opinion but,

    Pantheon looks very outdated and average in every way. I honestly have not seen one thing that I can that looks good. 



    Everything Ashes has shown so far looks great for it to be a Pre Alpha game that just got announced. 
  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Member LegendaryPosts: 8,756
    I find it odd people hope and want games to fail. We should want every game to make it as this only opens the door for more games in the future. I get disliking a game. I dont like ESO but I hope it does well and the people playing it enjoy it. If you dont get that... well nm
  • hatefulpeacehatefulpeace Member UncommonPosts: 621
    Nanfoodle said:
    I find it odd people hope and want games to fail. We should want every game to make it as this only opens the door for more games in the future. I get disliking a game. I dont like ESO but I hope it does well and the people playing it enjoy it. If you dont get that... well nm
    Its not cold, its just reality. It is coming from look at EQ, DAOC, SWG, Ryzom, they are all fails in the eyes of the masses. The old mmorpg is not liked by the masses, nor will it ever be no made what color you color it. It is just not for most people, I think some people just need to understand that. 
  • ZuljanZuljan Member UncommonPosts: 123
    edited February 2017
    As a Pantheon supporter and fan, I think these threads are good. Clearly, there is some bias/negativity and pinning very acute details without much evidence, but it lets those of us who do support it to give a chance for a rebuttle, and, in turn hopefully gain followers. Doubters of Pantheon, please read the following, open-minded, and tell me you honestly still disagree:

    a) brad mcquaid is responsible for Everquest. That game did pretty well. VG failed, hard, and if you do the research, it's clear Brad wasnt the person at fault for this. SOE then rehired him again after buying out Sigil for VG...point is, player, coach, designer business owner; you have wins and you have losses. He is a genius and world/game development. 1 bad day doesn't make you a flop.

    b) some people mention the kickstarter backers and the forum activity on Pantheons official website. First of all, I personally was completely unaware they ever had a kickstarter, for Ive played 10+ mmos, and in the past year simply haven't been lurking around on any such sites. many people have expressed this and have asked to do more crowdfunding, and in respone it appears they've made pledging available. Also for forum activity YOU HAVE TO PAY TO COMMENT. This isn't for money (seriously 3$ or whatever is nothing); rather, it it acts as a filter to ensure only people who WANT to see the game succeed will offer input; from suggestions, questions, observations etc. This is, however, why you see so few "people" and comments on the site. They really, really listen to the community. They have HIRED someone from the community because of their outstanding work, so they don't want to go through hundreds of troll/hateful posts, as they are looking for real, useful suggestions, feedback etc to improve game quality (game is pre-alpha, they didn't even have rezz in game yet during videos).

    c) none of us have any idea of what sort of private backers/investors they have and how much they contributed. They have a team of over 40 people working on thisgame (far more than I expected), and from the reserach I've done, that's a pretty respectable amount for an mmo, maybe outstanding amount for what some people call a "niche" game.

    d) this isn't going to be Everquest recycled. People keep thinking this and I don't know why. They have specifically stated they are using modern mechanics (akin to vanguard) mixed in with theold EQ elements that made for the richet/most rewarding game experience youll ever have. Theyve gone into details, specifically stating they are making a new mana regen system in and out of combat to avoid sitting too long to med. This game is going to be new in so many ways.

    Where there's smoke there's fire; this is the first game I've EVER seen on MMORPG.com make a top 10 list most populargames while still being in development... People want this game. Even the doubters really want it or at least want what fans/devs are saying the game "should/will be." What we all DON"t want, and I feel what is the real cause of doubt in the naysayers minds, is that this game is another everquest next, star wars Final fantasy 14 let down, with promises and promises, backing etc, and all for yet another MMO that inevitably fails, but this game has by far more interest and promise than any other game out on the  market.
  • AmsaiAmsai Member UncommonPosts: 299
    Nanfoodle said:
    I find it odd people hope and want games to fail. We should want every game to make it as this only opens the door for more games in the future. I get disliking a game. I dont like ESO but I hope it does well and the people playing it enjoy it. If you dont get that... well nm
    Its not cold, its just reality. It is coming from look at EQ, DAOC, SWG, Ryzom, they are all fails in the eyes of the masses. The old mmorpg is not liked by the masses, nor will it ever be no made what color you color it. It is just not for most people, I think some people just need to understand that. 
    Well I understand what you are saying. But I dont think its nearly as dire as you say either. But to Nanfoodle's original statement. Its one thing to dislike or even hate a game (especially one that is out). But I think it quite another for people to not only be so negative about a game that is still in development. But be so overly eager to attempt to turn others against it and seemingly wish for its failure. 

    Also its not reality. Your reality cant be determined until after it launches. And even then if a majority of folks dont like the game, that would only show you to be correct about its public reception. If they make enough money to pay the bills and continue content for fans and were able to be faithful in the tenets and features of the game, then that will be the true measure of success. Would that make it wildly successful? No. But good enough.

    Either way we dont know for sure how popular it will be when it launches. But everyone might be suprised. It could end up being a sleeper hit. Or as some others said it might start out with a modest subscriber base but steadily increase over time. There will be a limited free trial at lauch as well. I would encourage anyone with even a slight interest in the Pantheon to give it a try before you write it off. 


  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,534
    edited February 2017
    CrazKanuk said:
    Dullahan said:


    Pantheon development is going great. They still have to deliver the final product, but it's spiritual predecessor is by far the most referenced and reminisced over game on every major mmo forum for the last 10+ years. Hence the reason is totally crushed all the other hyped upcoming games like CoE, Crowfall, and the rest of the eastern ports.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/awards/players-choice-awards-most-wanted-mmo-of-2017-1000011456

    Only time will tell, but there's a huge audience waiting for a game like this.

    http://www.mmorpg.com/galleries/Dullahan/6274_pantheon



    Ok, so congrats to Pantheon on managing to rally enough people to "win" a poll here. Unfortunately, I'm not sure what that proves, exactly. I mean we've got another poll here where there were 2300 votes and Pantheon got just 0.7% of the vote. CoE had nearly 50% and Star Citizen had around 20%. 17 votes! 17 out of 2300! Honestly, it means very little. 

    And, NO, there isn't a huge audience waiting for a game with antiquated graphics! 
    Blizzard and their millions of fans chomping at the bit for new WoW expansions suggest otherwise.

    What you mean to say is, you're not waiting for a game which you deem to have antiquated graphics.





  • svannsvann Member RarePosts: 2,218
    Ashes of creation implies that is in game footage, but I doubt it.
This discussion has been closed.