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What should be the primary deciding factor in combat?

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Comments

  • Redfeather75Redfeather75 Member UncommonPosts: 229
    If player skill means the choices the player makes in the moment, then I'll vote for that. Same goes for any game in my opinion.
  • ikcinikcin Member RarePosts: 2,211
    edited February 2017
    In an MMORPG...and I am talking MMORPGs not the new themepark MMO genre that evolved from them, vertical progression of the character should be the most significant factor determining outcome of an encounter. 

    Vertical progression is a combination of character skill, gear and other eventual ways to progress your character in that particular MMORPG. I voted character skill because an option covering all elements of vertical progression is not included in your poll.

    The idea that player skills should be the major component determining outcomes of the encounters was brought to the genre later when it became more popular due to successful games which managed to attract players from other genres.

    I am not saying there should not be games, even MMO fantasy games for which it should be the player skills deciding combat results. They just are not MMORPGs, in my opinion.

    I just want to add that I am saying this as a player of competitive online games. I spent almost 4 000 hours in CSGO, several hundred hours playing arena in WoW, etc. I do like this type of games. However, having player skills decide combat outcomes goes against core principles of MMORPGs, IMO. 





    I disagree completely. The first MMORPGs had not the technical possibility to be player skill based. That is why they were character skill or gear based (both are the same) - it is an issue actually. And you take that technical issue and turn it into rule for a good game. This is absurd.

    Also the vertical progression is another issue. More you grind - more powerful your character becomes, is killing games and the whole genre actually. Many people do not play MMORPGs because they have not time to stay 24/7 to be competitive. In fact the majority of the people.

    You will say - I work hard, I invest time, so I must be rewarded properly. But you do not work or invest, you play a game.

    So you shall be rewarded for your skills as a player, and sometimes by luck, but never because you have too much free time.

  • EronakisEronakis Member UncommonPosts: 2,227
    I believe the ratio should be the following....

    60% player skill
    40% character skill

    After all, the traditional model of RPG's is suppose to be the element of building ones character. I am in the camp of not totally omitting the 'carrot on the stick' gear progression system. I am in the camp of less gear dependency. I think having good gear should be an avenue to help within combat as a perk but it shouldn't put you over the edge. Wow has a bad case of gear dependency it's absurd. I just believe a better skilled player should trump a lesser skilled player and not allow gear to be the determining factor. 

    As one who has designed my own combat mechanics this is a very challenging avenue to balance the gear vs. player skill ratio.

    I would also like to pin this for this thread too. That Character Skill should = Stats/gear progression. I don't think I would categorize Class Skill into Character skill. In some games classes will trump classes that are gear dependent. Which is also bad design. I am looking at you Blizzard!  
  • t0nydt0nyd Member UncommonPosts: 510
    I prefer a hybrid setup of player skill 50%, character build 30%, and gear 20%.  I want gear to matter but not be the focus. I prefer a game where I make my own build and not have my build be dictated solely by class and gear. Nothing worse than having an mmo hold your hand. 
  • postlarvalpostlarval Member EpicPosts: 2,003
    Player skill. lulz

    No such animal. 
    ______________________________________________________________________
    ~~ postlarval ~~

  • centkincentkin Member RarePosts: 1,527
    I chose player skill, but I do not mean twitch.  I mean the ability to use the right skills at the right times and anticipate things that come up, draw aggro, cede aggro -- the kinds of things I was able to do in EQ1 as a shaman to keep a party alive while others would have wipes. 
  • 45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 351
    Not voting as the true answer should be ALL OF THE ABOVE. Unless a company can create a game that uses no skill sets, no levels, not hit/miss ratios, zero gear enhancement, then player skill will never be the sole determining factor in combat.

    4507 said:
    Before someone says they want a mix of these... I deliberately didn't include a mix option because that would result in very unhelpful data. Obviously any combat system can't function well with 100% one of these, so the options are for the primary deciding factor, that is, the factor that matters the most in combat. It could be 26% of what matters while each other option is 24.67%, or it could matter a great deal more, but the main point is that it is the primary deciding factor.

    Please read the OP before posting.
  • Dagon13Dagon13 Member UncommonPosts: 566
    My real vote is for a balanced system.  Character skill doesn't quite cover it but the concept of player skill that people commonly insist upon is hogwash.  Git gud?  There are way too many systems in play in an RPG and throwing them all away for the sake of twitch is wasteful.

    My ideal system is a perfect balance between engagement, tactics, and preparation.  Engagement; the pacing must be swift enough to demand(and maintain) my attention.  Tactics: the combat should allow for some level of explicit reaction (not how quickly I can press 2,4,2,3,6 while animation cancelling).  I'm talking "aggressor swings sword, defender raises shield".  Preparation: character build should have a direct and significant influence on how I approach and the results of combat.  This accounts for all of the gear and luck aspects of the poll.

    Really, I don't think cohesive combat can exist without any one of these points.
  • cameltosiscameltosis Member EpicPosts: 2,670
    Dagon13 said:
    My real vote is for a balanced system.  Character skill doesn't quite cover it but the concept of player skill that people commonly insist upon is hogwash.  Git gud?  There are way too many systems in play in an RPG and throwing them all away for the sake of twitch is wasteful.

    My ideal system is a perfect balance between engagement, tactics, and preparation.  Engagement; the pacing must be swift enough to demand(and maintain) my attention.  Tactics: the combat should allow for some level of explicit reaction (not how quickly I can press 2,4,2,3,6 while animation cancelling).  I'm talking "aggressor swings sword, defender raises shield".  Preparation: character build should have a direct and significant influence on how I approach and the results of combat.  This accounts for all of the gear and luck aspects of the poll.

    Really, I don't think cohesive combat can exist without any one of these points.
    Player skill covers so much more than twitch combat. 

    Player skill covers:
    • Reaction times
    • Motor skills (twitch)
    • Situational Awareness
    • Group co-ordination
    • Tactical planning
    • Adaptability
    • Tactics
    Player skill is also a big part of the preparation stage you talk about. It takes player skill to understand all of the games mechanics in order to be able to best prepare your character. Granted, a lot of people just look up stuff on the net, but for some of us we try to fully understand the game and then build our characters based on that deep understanding. 


    Player skill, in all it's forms, is the most important factor in determining average combat outcomes. Sometimes, the emphasis on player skill is placed on the pre-combat stuff (building your character and selecting the right gear) but most times, it is your actions during combat that determine the outcome. 


    Could you imagine a game where character skill was the determining factor?! How boring! I'm playing a champion, you're playing a wizard, therefore I win. Where is the skill in that? Or, I'm playing a single-target DPS, you're playing AoE, therefore I win? I can imagine nothing worse! Now, character skill can certainly unbalance combat, for example a stealther might have an unfair advantage against a clothie, but it still takes player skill to make use of that advantage and if the clothie is sufficiently skilled as a player, they can still beat the stealther. 
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