I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.
That's not slow. It should take 6 Months for hardcore Players and 1 year for Casuals. If only takes 3 months, after 2 extra months of End Game, the Servers will be empty after 6 months. When players run out of content they don't stick around, that is a lesson Developers should have learned by now.
My original idea from 2002 was to provide a fixed number of levels (around 15), with different art models for the opponents at every level (minimal reuse of models in-game) and plan to try an incrementally progressive leveling scheme, roughly equating to 50 hours for to reach level 2, 75 more hours to reach level 3, etc. That would be a lot of content at each individual level. That's approximately 500 hours to reach level 5, and 3375 hours to reach max level (which is still only 141 days of 24x7). At a more reasonable 4 hours per day, max level would be around 845 days away.
That's the easy part. The hard part comes when players figure out tricks and strategies that end up making them level much faster than you thought was possible in your game.
Goodness knows it happened in EQ pretty often if I recall correctly from various developer snippets...
For some reason developers are always surprised at how fast players figure out edge cases. You would think with so many years and games that they would clue in and realize that the players will figure out the fastest, most efficient way to level - some view it as a challenge.
I don't think I have ever heard a developer say (in regard to a new game) - "wow it is taking everyone a lot longer than we expected to level". It is always "we don't have any new content for another 6 months as we did not anticipate that people would be max level after 1 month of release"
The time it takes to reach cap isn't something devs should even consider. You simply build the game, and pace it so it's fun. If you have enough content, and it's pace appropriately to where it's fun, that is how long it takes. If that is a year, great.
If you're reverse engineering the process starting with a specific time goal in mind, you're already doing it wrong.
The time it takes to reach cap isn't something devs should even consider. You simply build the game, and pace it so it's fun. If you have enough content, and it's pace appropriately to where it's fun, that is how long it takes. If that is a year, great.
If you're reverse engineering the process starting with a specific time goal in mind, you're already doing it wrong.
To think this is something devs should simply not even think about is silly. It's an important part of making an MMORPG and should be given as much consideration as other factors such as content and game mechanics. In fact, it would be foolish to create amazing content only for it to be skimmed or skipped because the leveling takes a week. For me, the key is to make sure that the leveling curve is both challenging and engaging. It should take long enough to allow the player to take in the content, create relationships and for the player to feel like it's an achievement to be max level and not just something that you try to get to as fast as possible so you can start raiding/duengons.
Developers make fast leveling for only two reasons:
1) Small short games 2) To get you to pay for their expansion's
Umm no.
To keep players interest is a big one, because no matter what devs do, the reality is an average gamer gets bored and will jump ship in 2-6 weeks.
If the leveling is even a tad slow, an average player will bounce in a hearbeat.
So maybe there is no point in trying to develop content for the average gamer, since they can't be retained anyways?
Wanting to "retain" a player is an old crutch based on subscription model.
If Pantheon is planning to be 100% subscription based (without any cash shop) - then player retention is critical, and sadly it's a losing game longterm.
Now with cash shop models - retention is not even a thing - it's average "spend" per player, that's the metric that all companies track.
MMO companies don't care if players leave and come back 100 times as long as they're spending money.
That's the advatage of F2P model - the companies don't feel pressure to make players STAY, it's like - hey come and go as you want, and throw in a few bucks along the way - that's the new cash shop F2P motto.
Player churn is real - people come and go, and with patch/expansion releases - they hope to keep them coming back so they can spend again.
But player retention - that's the past that died out with pure P2P models as game companies realized it's a losing battle, as over time the numbers just go one way - down.
Or could just do both like FFXIV which updates their CS monthly with items that cost the same as a sub or double and mostly not account wide purchases.
Personally, I agree. I prefer to play and level slowly enjoying everything a game has to offer. But that's just me.
There's a reason why +XP is considered a reward in many games and is done even when there is no cash shop in the game as in D3, DA:I, etc. IDK if that's a conditioned response from playing all the F2P games that make a big deal out of +XP or it's just that a lot of people enjoy racing to the top.
I even found the first elite class in WOW, the DK, annoying because it starts at a much higher level. Maybe I'm a slow leaner but I can't really get into a class unless I leveled it up from level 1.
I also noticed in WOW PUGs that level 60 DKs were by far the worst played class in the game. I used to groan when doing dungeons around that level and we got a DK tank in the group. Half the time they had no clue how to tank or even which DK spec they should do it with.
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The time it takes to reach cap isn't something devs should even consider. You simply build the game, and pace it so it's fun. If you have enough content, and it's pace appropriately to where it's fun, that is how long it takes. If that is a year, great.
If you're reverse engineering the process starting with a specific time goal in mind, you're already doing it wrong.
To think this is something devs should simply not even think about is silly. It's an important part of making an MMORPG and should be given as much consideration as other factors such as content and game mechanics. In fact, it would be foolish to create amazing content only for it to be skimmed or skipped because the leveling takes a week. For me, the key is to make sure that the leveling curve is both challenging and engaging. It should take long enough to allow the player to take in the content, create relationships and for the player to feel like it's an achievement to be max level and not just something that you try to get to as fast as possible so you can start raiding/duengons.
The point is, if you're designing it to be X amount of hours, you're putting the cart before the horse. Yes, you want it to be longer, but you do so by adding enough content to justify making the process slower while still remaining fun. You don't just slap an arbitrary number on and adjust everything according to that goal. Otherwise you end up with senseless grind.
I say this hoping Pantheon will take at least 2 or 3 months for even the most hardcore to reach cap (1,000+ hours). I just hope that on the way, there are enough options that it doesn't feel like I'm forced into a linear grindy experience.
The time it takes to reach cap isn't something devs should even consider. You simply build the game, and pace it so it's fun. If you have enough content, and it's pace appropriately to where it's fun, that is how long it takes. If that is a year, great.
If you're reverse engineering the process starting with a specific time goal in mind, you're already doing it wrong.
To think this is something devs should simply not even think about is silly. It's an important part of making an MMORPG and should be given as much consideration as other factors such as content and game mechanics. In fact, it would be foolish to create amazing content only for it to be skimmed or skipped because the leveling takes a week. For me, the key is to make sure that the leveling curve is both challenging and engaging. It should take long enough to allow the player to take in the content, create relationships and for the player to feel like it's an achievement to be max level and not just something that you try to get to as fast as possible so you can start raiding/duengons.
The point is, if you're designing it to be X amount of hours, you're putting the cart before the horse. Yes, you want it to be longer, but you do so by adding enough content to justify making the process slower while still remaining fun. You don't just slap an arbitrary number on and adjust everything according to that goal. Otherwise you end up with senseless grind.
I say this hoping Pantheon will take at least 2 or 3 months for even the most hardcore to reach cap (1,000+ hours). I just hope that on the way, there are enough options that it doesn't feel like I'm forced into a linear grindy experience.
We are on the same page then. It goes without saying that long levels do not equal a fun game when the rest of the game sucks. All the other components have to be there and should take priority. My only point is that slow leveling serves a purpose in an MMO, one that helps build community and gives players time to immerse themselves. I want the game to be fun from level 1 which means content/lore has to be engaging right from the get-go.
I myself prefer leveling would never end. The moment leveling ends it turns from an RPG to an action game for me.
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I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.
That's not slow. It should take 6 Months for hardcore Players and 1 year for Casuals. If only takes 3 months, after 2 extra months of End Game, the Servers will be empty after 6 months. When players run out of content they don't stick around, that is a lesson Developers should have learned by now.
Vanila WoW : I was working a full time job but every evening when i came home i would go straight onto WoW and stay there all night. On average it would take me around 2 months to get max level (playing +50hrs a week) and then after a few weeks/months of end game i would get the urge to make a new class. Fast forward a year and i would often make a hunter (for example) even though i already had a hunter, simply because i wanted to change factions or change races or change servers (because back then servers had identity). It never felt grindy to me, i always got a rush of excitment when starting on a new server or playing a new race and i loved leveling. Back then i didnt feel the urgency to get max level, because everything about the game had its beauty. I think the cash shop offering server transfers, race changes etc helped erode what vanila was all about, and thats what developers should learn from.
I'm not sure if the devs have spoken on this topic yet but I really hope that the level cap takes a while like it did with both the original EQ/EQ2 when it first launched. I'm so tired of playing games that allow me to achieve reach level 30 in one or two days and max level in less than a week. I want to be able to feel like the levels are an achievement even if the game feels a bit more grindey (I think grinding can be fun in groups). When I hit level cap I want to look back and remember zones and the mobs in the them like I did with EQ/EQ2. The benefit of a longer leveling curve is the ability to spend more time in zones and therefore more time soaking in the lore and building a connection with the world and the people in it. Call me crazy but I would even welcome hell levels over EZmode MMORPGs that are a dime a dozen nowadays.
I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.
I'm curious what others think, post below!
Much too fast. A level every three to four days, twenty to thirty hours of play time.
Here is the problem with leveling taking a long time. People today just want to get to end game just to raid because the developers focus everything on raiding and end game PVP and do not make anything worth while at low level. Hell when Dungeons take 15 minutes people dont want to do them 100 times just to gain 1 level.
The problem is the system is completely out of balance and the core of that is players no longer feel like they have achieved something as they left. Example is Vanilla WOW, you go and run Deadmines, it felt good when you completed the content because it was harder than any dungeon we have today and DM was not really that hard. Its the fact you had to pay attention to everything and have teamwork, none of this smashface hack n slash content we have now.
But none of that has anything to do with levels. I say get rid of levels. I want a game world with no artificial level boarders. I should be able to go wherever I want and play whatever content I want. Progression should be in story and unlockable. Not in Level grinding. Because truthfully most of you only want levels as a way to show off to other players you don't even know ow. It's a ego thing, not some journey you all keep saying.
But none of that has anything to do with levels. I say get rid of levels. I want a game world with no artificial level boarders. I should be able to go wherever I want and play whatever content I want. Progression should be in story and unlockable. Not in Level grinding. Because truthfully most of you only want levels as a way to show off to other players you don't even know ow. It's a ego thing, not some journey you all keep saying.
That is fine as well but not in a game like Pantheon. It would mean you wouldn't skip loads of content because it greys out at least.
But the game would have to be customized specifically around it to work.
Yeah they should have lots to do at all levels so people are not racing to the max level. The problem in lots of current games is that people race to max level and then they don't have much to do other than a raid or so. Then the company has to constantly try and keep putting out new content for the max level people but they can never keep up. This was a big problem in early EQ, I got to max level in 3 and a half months or so with my bard and was not much to do other than the two dragons. We use to hope that the zones would crash so that it would reset the dragon spawn. It was so boring that I left EQ for a while and did not come back till they added the fear and hate raid zones. I don't think a small company can keep up the content fast enough for the max level raiders. I think they plan to have raids at all levels perhaps they can have items that drops in the lower raids that can be upgraded by something dropped in later level raids that together makes an item that is better than the similar items that drop in the later raid. Also maybe they can have experience so that you can temporary shut it off so that you can raid and explore without advancing level wise.
How about no levels. Imagine a game like WoW if it had no levels. Enedgame is everything so there is no endgame because there I no levels to have a endgame. Everything you do goes to your progression. No more useless out leveled content. Deadlines would be serious content all the time. Not just when I am a low level or when I am a max level. PvP is all on same level since there is no levels. I can only out gear People. Not both out leveled and out gear.
I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.
That's not slow. It should take 6 Months for hardcore Players and 1 year for Casuals. If only takes 3 months, after 2 extra months of End Game, the Servers will be empty after 6 months. When players run out of content they don't stick around, that is a lesson Developers should have learned by now.
If the game takes too long to level it will be empty. There is a reason WoW revamped it's leveling content and then just outright gave people free Level ups. Because their stats show that most new players quit from the same old same old level grind, just to get to the stuff they wanted to play.
I remember playing Rift. I liked the game, but the slow level grind was not fun. When they increased the level grind with the first expansion, I quit before ever reaching 60. Don't see the value in level grinding. I just want a game world I can play with others. Not a level grind. A MmO version of 7 days to die. Where I can be dropped in the world and just play and have fun. Progression is like second nature. Not worried about grinding exp for levels.
How do you build memories in a short 3 week game ?
Why would you build your own community of friends in a 3 week mmo ?
How do you REALLY define and fine tune your character in a 3 week mmo ?
Why even call it an mmo in a 3 week game and not just a video game ?
How fun is making an alt that may be needed by your Guild if you play the exact same content over ?
Why craft in a 3 week game >
Well, by reading all the replies it seems the majority don't like short 3 week games anyway. This topic is really not needed.........However, I guess it needs to be mentioned to show developers to make mmos for us instead of their quick cash hit and run games !!!!
One reason I like Pantheon is that I have total faith in this development team
what you are completely failing to take into account is the typical F2P player will come back at some point - as the game is zero cost - so with patches, expansions etc... F2P players come back to play for a few more weeks.
it's not like - hey I'll play this game for 3 weeks and that's it. A good % do come back and keep coming back, because there is no fee to come back.
So the way it looks in F2P games - it's constant churn - launch population spike, then decline as players move on 2-6 weeks later... then you have a content patch, another (smaller) spike... then players leave again etc...
Now in a pure subscription model - you lose a player, it's a lot harder to "win" them back because even if they want to check out that new patch for 5minutes - they have to pay a full month price, which makes many say - no thanks.
Dude, you've been talking this crap for the past few years, and all we have gotten out of the genre is just that....crap. If you build a great game people will want to stay and play it for more than a few weeks. Also with a sub there is more of an investment in it. Show me a legit stat that shows people come back to free to play games more than they do sub games. Because even when I have gone back to a non-sub game like ESO, I still pay the sub. People that don't want to pay subs don't pay crap anyway. Why cater to freeloaders?
How do you build memories in a short 3 week game ?
Why would you build your own community of friends in a 3 week mmo ?
How do you REALLY define and fine tune your character in a 3 week mmo ?
Why even call it an mmo in a 3 week game and not just a video game ?
How fun is making an alt that may be needed by your Guild if you play the exact same content over ?
Why craft in a 3 week game >
Well, by reading all the replies it seems the majority don't like short 3 week games anyway. This topic is really not needed.........However, I guess it needs to be mentioned to show developers to make mmos for us instead of their quick cash hit and run games !!!!
One reason I like Pantheon is that I have total faith in this development team
what you are completely failing to take into account is the typical F2P player will come back at some point - as the game is zero cost - so with patches, expansions etc... F2P players come back to play for a few more weeks.
it's not like - hey I'll play this game for 3 weeks and that's it. A good % do come back and keep coming back, because there is no fee to come back.
So the way it looks in F2P games - it's constant churn - launch population spike, then decline as players move on 2-6 weeks later... then you have a content patch, another (smaller) spike... then players leave again etc...
Now in a pure subscription model - you lose a player, it's a lot harder to "win" them back because even if they want to check out that new patch for 5minutes - they have to pay a full month price, which makes many say - no thanks.
Dude, you've been talking this crap for the past few years, and all we have gotten out of the genre is just that....crap. If you build a great game people will want to stay and play it for more than a few weeks. Also with a sub there is more of an investment in it. Show me a legit stat that shows people come back to free to play games more than they do sub games. Because even when I have gone back to a non-sub game like ESO, I still pay the sub. People that don't want to pay subs don't pay crap anyway. Why cater to freeloaders?
Right? Most of the deep, quality MMOs weren't built for a F2P model, they converted to F2P to gain some sort of income back after their P2P model wasn't cutting it. It's left the genre with the impression that it can work from the start since a majority of games are currently F2P. Make a quality game that is designed to last a long time and people will stay and they will pay. There seems to be a theme of applying modern model principals to Pantheon.... even though the developers keep on saying it won't be that kind of model.
Right? Most of the deep, quality MMOs weren't built for a F2P model, they converted to F2P to gain some sort of income back after their P2P model wasn't cutting it. It's left the genre with the impression that it can work from the start since a majority of games are currently F2P. Make a quality game that is designed to last a long time and people will stay and they will pay. There seems to be a theme of applying modern model principals and applying them to Pantheon.... even though the developers keep on saying otherwise.
I think that it is good that there are few F2P or B2P games out there to jump into when I want a break, but there is a huge difference between that and having almost all games F2P.
And most games call themselves F2P and still have an "optional" sub just to get away with a pay2win model but you really need that sub anyways.
Of course P2P games also have a disadvantage: More then a few games did put in timesinks that didn't add anything to the game just to keep you playing and that isn't good either. The incredible boring daily quests started out that way.
As I see it there are needed more P2P and B2P MMOs. And B2P like Guildwars was.
P2P do motivate devs to keep the game fun long term and that is good, but you still need talented devs or you just get one of those games that turns F2P after 6 months.
<snip> I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.
I'm curious what others think, post below!
I'd have thought the 3 months time would be far too fast for this crowd. 90 days * 5 hours is 450 hours. You realize that there will be teams of individuals racing to progress to advance a single character to max level, and that's only 18.75 days of 24/7 play. So, are max level characters showing up at around 20 days really okay?
I wouldn't mind starting to see max level characters after 20 days, so I'd be okay with this pace -- far faster than the old-school games. But I would question that the depth of such a game might be too thin to retain players for very long.
I don't know. 450 hours to hit max level is a huge investment. If you made it even higher, a lot of people will just quit. Or it will limit mmorpgs to people who only play this genre. I don't play 5 hours every day probably more like 7-10 hours a week. I don't think we need to worry that's much about people who play 24/7. Because if you want to prevent max level characters from showing too early, you will make it so that more casual people will never reach max level before they quit. This will limit who plays at max level and can cause big issues in terms of population at max level.
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Slow leveling could easily end up being a curse if they go through with the Progeny -- depending on how it actually functions. I half expect that entire system to get scrapped during testing but it's something to consider.
I don't know. 450 hours to hit max level is a huge investment. If you made it even higher, a lot of people will just quit. Or it will limit mmorpgs to people who only play this genre. I don't play 5 hours every day probably more like 7-10 hours a week. I don't think we need to worry that's much about people who play 24/7. Because if you want to prevent max level characters from showing too early, you will make it so that more casual people will never reach max level before they quit. This will limit who plays at max level and can cause big issues in terms of population at max level.
You guys are still thinking about this all wrong. You're stuck in the mindset that games are only played to be beaten. As if the "real game" only starts at "end game".
A MMO can be fun from the start if it's designed that way. A game like that has no limit to the number of hours it's fun before max level when done right.
Personally I would love to see a game that takes about 6 months of steady playing to get to max level, at about 20 hours a week worth. Were each level is about the same amount of time to achieve. Games today allow people to just plow through them without really spending any time doing anything. The quest don't matter because all they want to do it hit that magic number at the top.
Believe it or not WoW had a good speed when it first came out the average player could take about 4-5 months before hitting level 60. Of course you had the got to be first that only took a couple months and the really slow that took 6-8 months also. Then there was about another 3 or 4 months of content and gearing up after that. If you are going to make a game where you hit max level in under a month there is no point having a leveling system. You are putting to much time into something that is worthless if that is the case.
I love questing so I am different from a lot of players. I don't enjoy sitting in one area killing the same mobs over and over. Hell I would be fine with a game that only rewards xp for completion of quest, dungeons, raids, and pvp matches. No mob xp whatsoever.
Basically I look at it like this you should not be able to progress to the next level till you have upgraded your skills and gear. I don't enjoy games that just throw you better gear ever 5 mins so you can blow through stuff. Make the game hard where you have to take your time. Oh you pulled a couple extra mobs and you are solo you die. For me a game with no AoE at all would be great. No seeing a group of people run into a group of mobs and just spamming AoE over and over.
One of the worse things to happen to gaming was the idea that everyone had to have an alt of ever class at max level. That is one of the ideas that has killed a good leveling system. A lot of older games people may have leveled a couple different toons but most tending to stick with the one because you couldn't reach max level in a month and would miss out if you tried.
Overall I know I am in the minority but I enjoy the journey in games not this max level crap. I tend to leave games once I hit max level if the only thing to do is run the same instances or raids over and over as that is boring as crap.
<snip> I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.
I'm curious what others think, post below!
I'd have thought the 3 months time would be far too fast for this crowd. 90 days * 5 hours is 450 hours. You realize that there will be teams of individuals racing to progress to advance a single character to max level, and that's only 18.75 days of 24/7 play. So, are max level characters showing up at around 20 days really okay?
I wouldn't mind starting to see max level characters after 20 days, so I'd be okay with this pace -- far faster than the old-school games. But I would question that the depth of such a game might be too thin to retain players for very long.
I don't know. 450 hours to hit max level is a huge investment. If you made it even higher, a lot of people will just quit. Or it will limit mmorpgs to people who only play this genre. I don't play 5 hours every day probably more like 7-10 hours a week. I don't think we need to worry that's much about people who play 24/7. Because if you want to prevent max level characters from showing too early, you will make it so that more casual people will never reach max level before they quit. This will limit who plays at max level and can cause big issues in terms of population at max level.
The problem isn't really how long it takes for your character to reach max level, it's how soon someone else will reach max level. That's when the jealousy and accusations of cheating start. In my experience, that is when human nature takes over and the migration to other games begins. It is frequently those 24/7 teams that race to the end causing the issues.
When max level players appear, they can power level others, for in-game money. They can buff others with buffs more powerful than the content planned for. They will farm boss mobs for loot, which they may try to sell in-game, again allowing lower level characters to overwhelm content. Finally, they can gain some degree of notoriety for being first. Several of these cases can also be taken out-of-game, exchanging services or in-game assets for real-world money, which is almost always a violation of the End User Agreement. Policing these out-of-game activities is a real cost on the game company, and may be substantial, depending on their commitment.
Every way that a 24/7 team advances themselves, potentially harms the game experience for some other player. Characters can be sold for real-world profit, resulting in high-level characters played by novice players. The high-level buffs your character buys makes the content of the game easier. In-game prices are severely out-of-whack with an item's usefulness. Ever pay 25pp for a Runed Totem Staff? That was the going price in the early days of EQ1. By the time you are able to farm a RTS for yourself, it would probably only be vendor trash, worth a gold or so. Every outrageous price paid subsidizes another player's time.
To me, it's a problem if the development team doesn't have some idea of how much content their game has and needs, and how fast the progression curve will allow players to reach max levels. At least with that knowledge, the developers can somewhat control some of issues that this unbalanced player base can cause.
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it hard thing to balance but i agree on a lot of fronts an points you guys made.
think the best way to balance it { least early game } would be gear > level level 40 with good gear could handle a level 45 mob an live. versus a level 50 getting killed on the same level 45 mob since he rushed on easy mobs an had crap gear.
that way you feel you time was worth going slow farming dungeons with friends for that good gear then trying find a corner to rush to 50 on easy mobs so you got X skills/talents an could win easy solo farming gear making money.
<snip> I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.
I'm curious what others think, post below!
I'd have thought the 3 months time would be far too fast for this crowd. 90 days * 5 hours is 450 hours. You realize that there will be teams of individuals racing to progress to advance a single character to max level, and that's only 18.75 days of 24/7 play. So, are max level characters showing up at around 20 days really okay?
I wouldn't mind starting to see max level characters after 20 days, so I'd be okay with this pace -- far faster than the old-school games. But I would question that the depth of such a game might be too thin to retain players for very long.
I don't know. 450 hours to hit max level is a huge investment. If you made it even higher, a lot of people will just quit. Or it will limit mmorpgs to people who only play this genre. I don't play 5 hours every day probably more like 7-10 hours a week. I don't think we need to worry that's much about people who play 24/7. Because if you want to prevent max level characters from showing too early, you will make it so that more casual people will never reach max level before they quit. This will limit who plays at max level and can cause big issues in terms of population at max level.
The problem isn't really how long it takes for your character to reach max level, it's how soon someone else will reach max level. That's when the jealousy and accusations of cheating start. In my experience, that is when human nature takes over and the migration to other games begins. It is frequently those 24/7 teams that race to the end causing the issues.
When max level players appear, they can power level others, for in-game money. They can buff others with buffs more powerful than the content planned for. They will farm boss mobs for loot, which they may try to sell in-game, again allowing lower level characters to overwhelm content. Finally, they can gain some degree of notoriety for being first. Several of these cases can also be taken out-of-game, exchanging services or in-game assets for real-world money, which is almost always a violation of the End User Agreement. Policing these out-of-game activities is a real cost on the game company, and may be substantial, depending on their commitment.
Every way that a 24/7 team advances themselves, potentially harms the game experience for some other player. Characters can be sold for real-world profit, resulting in high-level characters played by novice players. The high-level buffs your character buys makes the content of the game easier. In-game prices are severely out-of-whack with an item's usefulness. Ever pay 25pp for a Runed Totem Staff? That was the going price in the early days of EQ1. By the time you are able to farm a RTS for yourself, it would probably only be vendor trash, worth a gold or so. Every outrageous price paid subsidizes another player's time.
To me, it's a problem if the development team doesn't have some idea of how much content their game has and needs, and how fast the progression curve will allow players to reach max levels. At least with that knowledge, the developers can somewhat control some of issues that this unbalanced player base can cause.
The problems only start when you try to control the 5% that rush no matter what the developers do. I will be taking 5 weeks (All of my saved vacation) off when this game launches and will literally lock myself in my house to reach max level with my guild when this game releases. No matter what restrictions are placed upon us we will conquer it in no time flat. By hurting players like myself you only alienate your major player base.
I'm hoping 5 weeks is going to be enough time. But thinking about an average play schedule for each day of 18 hours. 5 weeks (35 days) will give me 630 hours of in-game time. That should be more than enough.
I already see progression obstacles that stand in our way of grinding thru content such as: The acclimation system. Sounds like we will have to break off from grinding and search out items and quests that increase our acclimation to continue onto harder zones (Like Amber Fate). Any hurdle applied to rushers will be conquered immediately. It doesn't matter what it is.
Example= Warframe controls how fast each player can Mastery Rank up thru their forced 24 hour Mastery Rank testing. You can only take one Mastery Rank test per 24 hours. I was still level 13 MR in 13 days. Which is blindingly fast for that game. It was just a nuisance to get to my Tigris Prime. These kinds of "Control" are pointless in the end.
My need to grind out levels and max my first character is a personal goal / issue. Now, I don't do this to cause other players harm or the game harm such as you expressed @Mendel. I truly do it because I want to and that's it. But in the end if VR tries to control this act of rushing they will only hurt the other 95% of the player base that may not have the time I do or those that just choose to take a more casual approach and soak in the fresh air.
Either way of level is not wrong. It is always a choice on how each player chooses to play the game.
P.S. Please don't attack me on my play style. I don't wish to "RUIN" the game for anyone. And before anyone says this is what modern MMO's have taught and ingrained into me as a player. I have done this since I played MUD's before EQ1.
I dont see an issue with your playstyle. Your gaming preferences, your choice.
What does pollute certain games though, is that other people take your achievement and kicks other players in the face with it.
If you lvl in 2 days, people, for what ever reason which is not to be blamed on you, decides to tell others that the content is easy and that everybody can lvl in 2 days if they want.
This then grows more intense to the point, where a group of players who have found out how you did it, will unite on forums and tell the developers that their game sucks, cause its too easy.
Meanwhile the "slow journey" crowd watch their loved game, turn into a pissing contest and ultimately wrecked by new designs made to please the crowd that complains, which hardly anyone who played the game in a moderate pace ever wanted.
So no, your preference is fine, its the people who abuse your way of doing things to destroy games, that can cause issues.
Comments
I don't think I have ever heard a developer say (in regard to a new game) - "wow it is taking everyone a lot longer than we expected to level". It is always "we don't have any new content for another 6 months as we did not anticipate that people would be max level after 1 month of release"
If you're reverse engineering the process starting with a specific time goal in mind, you're already doing it wrong.
There's a reason why +XP is considered a reward in many games and is done even when there is no cash shop in the game as in D3, DA:I, etc. IDK if that's a conditioned response from playing all the F2P games that make a big deal out of +XP or it's just that a lot of people enjoy racing to the top.
I even found the first elite class in WOW, the DK, annoying because it starts at a much higher level. Maybe I'm a slow leaner but I can't really get into a class unless I leveled it up from level 1.
I also noticed in WOW PUGs that level 60 DKs were by far the worst played class in the game. I used to groan when doing dungeons around that level and we got a DK tank in the group. Half the time they had no clue how to tank or even which DK spec they should do it with.
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I say this hoping Pantheon will take at least 2 or 3 months for even the most hardcore to reach cap (1,000+ hours). I just hope that on the way, there are enough options that it doesn't feel like I'm forced into a linear grindy experience.
It never felt grindy to me, i always got a rush of excitment when starting on a new server or playing a new race and i loved leveling. Back then i didnt feel the urgency to get max level, because everything about the game had its beauty.
I think the cash shop offering server transfers, race changes etc helped erode what vanila was all about, and thats what developers should learn from.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
But the game would have to be customized specifically around it to work.
PvP is all on same level since there is no levels. I can only out gear People. Not both out leveled and out gear.
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Philosophy of MMO Game Design
Right? Most of the deep, quality MMOs weren't built for a F2P model, they converted to F2P to gain some sort of income back after their P2P model wasn't cutting it. It's left the genre with the impression that it can work from the start since a majority of games are currently F2P. Make a quality game that is designed to last a long time and people will stay and they will pay. There seems to be a theme of applying modern model principals to Pantheon.... even though the developers keep on saying it won't be that kind of model.
And most games call themselves F2P and still have an "optional" sub just to get away with a pay2win model but you really need that sub anyways.
Of course P2P games also have a disadvantage: More then a few games did put in timesinks that didn't add anything to the game just to keep you playing and that isn't good either. The incredible boring daily quests started out that way.
As I see it there are needed more P2P and B2P MMOs. And B2P like Guildwars was.
P2P do motivate devs to keep the game fun long term and that is good, but you still need talented devs or you just get one of those games that turns F2P after 6 months.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I half expect that entire system to get scrapped during testing but it's something to consider.
A MMO can be fun from the start if it's designed that way. A game like that has no limit to the number of hours it's fun before max level when done right.
Believe it or not WoW had a good speed when it first came out the average player could take about 4-5 months before hitting level 60. Of course you had the got to be first that only took a couple months and the really slow that took 6-8 months also. Then there was about another 3 or 4 months of content and gearing up after that. If you are going to make a game where you hit max level in under a month there is no point having a leveling system. You are putting to much time into something that is worthless if that is the case.
I love questing so I am different from a lot of players. I don't enjoy sitting in one area killing the same mobs over and over. Hell I would be fine with a game that only rewards xp for completion of quest, dungeons, raids, and pvp matches. No mob xp whatsoever.
Basically I look at it like this you should not be able to progress to the next level till you have upgraded your skills and gear. I don't enjoy games that just throw you better gear ever 5 mins so you can blow through stuff. Make the game hard where you have to take your time. Oh you pulled a couple extra mobs and you are solo you die. For me a game with no AoE at all would be great. No seeing a group of people run into a group of mobs and just spamming AoE over and over.
One of the worse things to happen to gaming was the idea that everyone had to have an alt of ever class at max level. That is one of the ideas that has killed a good leveling system. A lot of older games people may have leveled a couple different toons but most tending to stick with the one because you couldn't reach max level in a month and would miss out if you tried.
Overall I know I am in the minority but I enjoy the journey in games not this max level crap. I tend to leave games once I hit max level if the only thing to do is run the same instances or raids over and over as that is boring as crap.
When max level players appear, they can power level others, for in-game money. They can buff others with buffs more powerful than the content planned for. They will farm boss mobs for loot, which they may try to sell in-game, again allowing lower level characters to overwhelm content. Finally, they can gain some degree of notoriety for being first. Several of these cases can also be taken out-of-game, exchanging services or in-game assets for real-world money, which is almost always a violation of the End User Agreement. Policing these out-of-game activities is a real cost on the game company, and may be substantial, depending on their commitment.
Every way that a 24/7 team advances themselves, potentially harms the game experience for some other player. Characters can be sold for real-world profit, resulting in high-level characters played by novice players. The high-level buffs your character buys makes the content of the game easier. In-game prices are severely out-of-whack with an item's usefulness. Ever pay 25pp for a Runed Totem Staff? That was the going price in the early days of EQ1. By the time you are able to farm a RTS for yourself, it would probably only be vendor trash, worth a gold or so. Every outrageous price paid subsidizes another player's time.
To me, it's a problem if the development team doesn't have some idea of how much content their game has and needs, and how fast the progression curve will allow players to reach max levels. At least with that knowledge, the developers can somewhat control some of issues that this unbalanced player base can cause.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
think the best way to balance it { least early game } would be gear > level level 40 with good gear could handle a level 45 mob an live. versus a level 50 getting killed on the same level 45 mob since he rushed on easy mobs an had crap gear.
that way you feel you time was worth going slow farming dungeons with friends for that good gear then trying find a corner to rush to 50 on easy mobs so you got X skills/talents an could win easy solo farming gear making money.
I dont see an issue with your playstyle. Your gaming preferences, your choice.
What does pollute certain games though, is that other people take your achievement and kicks other players in the face with it.
If you lvl in 2 days, people, for what ever reason which is not to be blamed on you, decides to tell others that the content is easy and that everybody can lvl in 2 days if they want.
This then grows more intense to the point, where a group of players who have found out how you did it, will unite on forums and tell the developers that their game sucks, cause its too easy.
Meanwhile the "slow journey" crowd watch their loved game, turn into a pissing contest and ultimately wrecked by new designs made to please the crowd that complains, which hardly anyone who played the game in a moderate pace ever wanted.
So no, your preference is fine, its the people who abuse your way of doing things to destroy games, that can cause issues.