They could make experience from killing mobs be in a narrow range. For example if you are level 10, you get experience from mobs level 8 to 12 only. If you kill a level 13 mob then you get 0 experience. Or of course they could make it so that if your group tries at level 10 to kill a level 13 mob that you can't damage it at all but the reverse is not true. Lots of ways to try and handle this issue including the equipment gating described above.
Personally I think a fifth of modern leveling speed would be about right, but with a curve that makes the first few levels really fast while the last few take a long time.
That actually seems a bit slow for me. Do we really want a return to "hell levels"? Give me something where I can hit max level in 6 months.
Also, I rather not have
100 levels (the matter of levels is just something that splits up the
community more or less, not to be confused with the total time it takes
to reach max). Anything from 20-50 is fine but more does not make the
game more fun, just harder to find a group for your current level.
I like the idea of a smaller number of levels. 20 would be a very nice number, I'd even suggest that 15 would be even more appropriate. At least we wouldn't be as likely to see "Blue Orcs", "Aqua Orcs", "Green Orcs", etc. using the same model every level. Design the number of character levels based on the number of art assets. It will make the journey much more interesting and meaningful. That way, at level 1 characters could fight mobs A, B and C, but at level 2 they would fight C, D and E and each mob would have a unique model and AI.
I agree with the splitting the community aspect of this statement, also.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Depends on your audience. It would be quite possible to alienate vast numbers of people depending on the route you take.
Personally, I won't play it if it's slow. I don't see the point. It's guaranteed that there won't be enough content to fill the void, so you'll be just running around mindlessly grinding until, what? You hit max level and then refocus your grinding on gear? Progression is what kills games. That's not just level progression, but the feeling that you're actually making progress. It's already been said that it will be hard, which will contribute to slowing progression. So making the rewards for accomplishing tasks shitty, as well, it does nothing else than just make people less motivated to play (on the whole).
All this really means is that they need to know what their market is. If they're making a game for 10,000 players or less then maybe brutally slow leveling will work. However, there are great tidbits of information to show that brutally slow progression and punishing gameplay don't encourage continued play.
Three words. Progression. Progression. Progression. Oh, and I forgot one. Progression. Don't care how they do it but without it things get boring fast. It seems like a simple concept, make players feel like they're accomplishing something, but for some reason it completely escapes so many developers.
I think it depends on how vertical their power curve is. If they go with a pretty horizontal curve, then I think a very long time is fine, and even most of the newer generation would "endure" it.
I want fewer levels... like old-style RPGs, i.e. 20 as in AD&D, but make each level count. Don't give me an endless grind where the difference between each level is x% more dmg and n+1 rank of a base spell. Give me unique abilities spread over fewer levels.
Depends on your audience. It would be quite possible to alienate vast numbers of people depending on the route you take.
Personally, I won't play it if it's slow. I don't see the point. It's guaranteed that there won't be enough content to fill the void, so you'll be just running around mindlessly grinding until, what? You hit max level and then refocus your grinding on gear? Progression is what kills games. That's not just level progression, but the feeling that you're actually making progress. It's already been said that it will be hard, which will contribute to slowing progression. So making the rewards for accomplishing tasks shitty, as well, it does nothing else than just make people less motivated to play (on the whole).
All this really means is that they need to know what their market is. If they're making a game for 10,000 players or less then maybe brutally slow leveling will work. However, there are great tidbits of information to show that brutally slow progression and punishing gameplay don't encourage continued play.
What sort of gameplay / activities do you enjoy? Why do you play MMORPGs in particular if you think that progression is what kills games?
I think you have all activities MMORPGs have to offer included in other games where you do not need to bother with progression (fantasy / medieval PVP - LoL, DOTA 2, Chivalry, etc.; shooter PVP - CSGO, Overwatch,...; raiding / dungeons - dozens of online multiplayer fantasy games with very limited progression aspect like RIFT, WoW, TERA,..; crafting / building - survival games).
What is it that you miss in the market when you do not like progression?
I am personally missing a game which is exactly about the journey rather than the endgame activities. I think Pantheon is aiming at being that game (I may be wrong).
This relates to what I said, if Craz is referring to using levels as a carrot, I wholeheartedly agree. As that's not making the game about the journey, that's making the game about hitting arbitrary milestones over and over again, to no end.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Depends on your audience. It would be quite possible to alienate vast numbers of people depending on the route you take.
Personally, I won't play it if it's slow. I don't see the point. It's guaranteed that there won't be enough content to fill the void, so you'll be just running around mindlessly grinding until, what? You hit max level and then refocus your grinding on gear? Progression is what kills games. That's not just level progression, but the feeling that you're actually making progress. It's already been said that it will be hard, which will contribute to slowing progression. So making the rewards for accomplishing tasks shitty, as well, it does nothing else than just make people less motivated to play (on the whole).
All this really means is that they need to know what their market is. If they're making a game for 10,000 players or less then maybe brutally slow leveling will work. However, there are great tidbits of information to show that brutally slow progression and punishing gameplay don't encourage continued play.
What sort of gameplay / activities do you enjoy? Why do you play MMORPGs in particular if you think that progression is what kills games?
I think you have all activities MMORPGs have to offer included in other games where you do not need to bother with progression (fantasy / medieval PVP - LoL, DOTA 2, Chivalry, etc.; shooter PVP - CSGO, Overwatch,...; raiding / dungeons - dozens of online multiplayer fantasy games with very limited progression aspect like RIFT, WoW, TERA,..; crafting / building - survival games).
What is it that you miss in the market when you do not like progression?
I am personally missing a game which is exactly about the journey rather than the endgame activities. I think Pantheon is aiming at being that game (I may be wrong).
Sorry, my intent was the LACK of progression. I'd argue that LoL, CSGO, Overwatch, all have progression through competitive multiplayer. Also, they temper that with "Seasons" where progress is reset. Don't get me wrong, some DO have levels, but the barrier to max level is relatively low.
I do enjoy the endgame aspects of MMOs, but I am also about the journey. That being said, what I feel is a waste is a game that fills the game with fluffy content (sandbox or otherwise) to artificially inflate the time spent in the game. I think that's an out-dated idea from the days when subscriptions were king.
Personally, I think if you put a 500-hour journey in front of a user, you'll end up getting a massive separation in your user base, which will end up promoting solo gameplay. That is unless they somehow fix that with their grouping mechanics. They should read that article on creating meaningful relationships, lol.
Depends on your audience. It would be quite possible to alienate vast numbers of people depending on the route you take.
Personally, I won't play it if it's slow. I don't see the point. It's guaranteed that there won't be enough content to fill the void, so you'll be just running around mindlessly grinding until, what? You hit max level and then refocus your grinding on gear? Progression is what kills games. That's not just level progression, but the feeling that you're actually making progress. It's already been said that it will be hard, which will contribute to slowing progression. So making the rewards for accomplishing tasks shitty, as well, it does nothing else than just make people less motivated to play (on the whole).
All this really means is that they need to know what their market is. If they're making a game for 10,000 players or less then maybe brutally slow leveling will work. However, there are great tidbits of information to show that brutally slow progression and punishing gameplay don't encourage continued play.
What sort of gameplay / activities do you enjoy? Why do you play MMORPGs in particular if you think that progression is what kills games?
I think you have all activities MMORPGs have to offer included in other games where you do not need to bother with progression (fantasy / medieval PVP - LoL, DOTA 2, Chivalry, etc.; shooter PVP - CSGO, Overwatch,...; raiding / dungeons - dozens of online multiplayer fantasy games with very limited progression aspect like RIFT, WoW, TERA,..; crafting / building - survival games).
What is it that you miss in the market when you do not like progression?
I am personally missing a game which is exactly about the journey rather than the endgame activities. I think Pantheon is aiming at being that game (I may be wrong).
This relates to what I said, if Craz is referring to using levels as a carrot, I wholeheartedly agree. As that's not making the game about the journey, that's making the game about hitting arbitrary milestones over and over again, to no end.
I am not disputing the fact that progression should be a bi-product of being engaged in activities that you enjoy doing in a virtual wold (whatever they may be). I am saying that cutting it out of the game or making it short is not the right solution (my subjective perspective).
It does not matter how slow it is as long as you are not forced to do activities you do not enjoy just because you need to progress to unlock game content.
I think the perception of progression has been negatively affected by MMOs with endgame model where you often need to do things you do not enjoy (e.g. questing) just to be able to do activities which are locked behind progression milestones.
For instance, I used to enjoy games where we went with a bunch of friends to a monster spot and grinded for hours while chatting, joking, and just socializing. I was not coming back to the game primarily to get experience, but to join the group and just hang out. Meanwhile, we were getting exp, gold, craft materials, items, etc. Sometimes you got to a new level, got some new spells, skills,... If the progression was not there, it would still be fun to hang out with friends in the game, but something would be missing. I am not sure if "point" would be the right word here.
I don't disagree. The only "endgame" model I've truly enjoyed was SWG's, as you actually became something of use, which is what drove the entire experience. Be it a bounty hunter, Doc, dancer, musician, etc.. Endgame was more or less an endless journey in itself. Without that kind of structure endgame is nothing but PVP or endless repetition of certain content.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
I want to make it clear that having long levels for the sake of prolonging subscriptions is not what I'm talking about. That said, I feel the reason why EQ was so damn good was because the slower progress in levels essentially allowed people to build relationships with each other and with the world (amongst other factors). I don't want leveling to be so tedious that it is discouraging but making it too quick for the sake of appealing to casuals is what would make this game far less appealing. I'm fine with this being a niche game and I don't think I'm alone. We have fast leveling MMOs today, there is no shortage and if someone doesn't want to log on because progress is slow and isn't handed on a silver platter then that's fine. This game shouldn't try to cater to everyone. I don't think it's too much to ask for a game like Pantheon to have a steeper leveling curve which in turn helps players immerse themselves and to make meaningful relationships that keep you playing.
This depends on the content. If each area has many places to explore, things worth spending time on. Then I dont want to out level an area before I have had to chance to learn the map and what it has to offer. I am sick of walking into an area on rails and a quest path has me running like I have blinders on. Leave an area and know nothing about it other then the graphics. I do want slower leveling but not so slow I find I have run out of new places to explore for my level.
Three words. Progression. Progression. Progression. Oh, and I forgot one. Progression. Don't care how they do it but without it things get boring fast. It seems like a simple concept, make players feel like they're accomplishing something, but for some reason it completely escapes so many developers.
Progression is a tricky thing to balance. Too fast and they'll upset the core audience as seen in this thread.
Too slow, (think L2 or FFXI back in the day) and people will also be unhappy.
Have to find the sweet spot, or risk alienating a large portion of the player base.
But perhaps the bigger question is, what is there to do that requires someone to be "Max level?"
In DAOC its when big-boy RVR really got rolling, in EQ I suppose it was high level raiding.
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
Here is the problem with leveling taking a long time. People today just want to get to end game just to raid because the developers focus everything on raiding and end game PVP and do not make anything worth while at low level. Hell when Dungeons take 15 minutes people dont want to do them 100 times just to gain 1 level.
The problem is the system is completely out of balance and the core of that is players no longer feel like they have achieved something as they left. Example is Vanilla WOW, you go and run Deadmines, it felt good when you completed the content because it was harder than any dungeon we have today and DM was not really that hard. Its the fact you had to pay attention to everything and have teamwork, none of this smashface hack n slash content we have now.
Three words. Progression. Progression. Progression. Oh, and I forgot one. Progression. Don't care how they do it but without it things get boring fast. It seems like a simple concept, make players feel like they're accomplishing something, but for some reason it completely escapes so many developers.
Progression is a tricky thing to balance. Too fast and they'll upset the core audience as seen in this thread.
Too slow, (think L2 or FFXI back in the day) and people will also be unhappy.
Have to find the sweet spot, or risk alienating a large portion of the player base.
But perhaps the bigger question is, what is there to do that requires someone to be "Max level?"
In DAOC its when big-boy RVR really got rolling, in EQ I suppose it was high level raiding.
Why someone needs to be max level is important.
You can add what's available to do as you level, as well as how it's presented to that question as well. It has to feel like something more than just killing stuff for levels. There needs to be that hook that truly makes it feel like an adventure, I think that's the hardest trick to pull off in this day and age. We've all been highly exposed to the different MMORPG mechanics at this point, as well as the act of playing with others cooperatively online. Those latter things were selling points back then, I don't know if they still are today.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
To me leveling should feel as though it's just something that happens while having fun in a modern MMO. Especially for a PVE focused game. When I'm playing Skyrim or any other TES game, leveling is the last thing I'm thinking about while playing. Levels shouldn't be used as a carrot on a string as they were back in 99.
The gameplay itself should be what takes center stage. Gaining new powers and strength is fine, yet that shouldn't be what drives the experience. Otherwise it will just feel like a mind numbing grind.
In the end a PVE game can be an endless up hill climb as long as what you're doing is entertaining.
Yea the best games , you lvl or progress in and never saw it coming ...Because you were actually playing the game having fun...
I'm not sure if the devs have spoken on this topic yet but I really hope that the level cap takes a while like it did with both the original EQ/EQ2 when it first launched. I'm so tired of playing games that allow me to achieve reach level 30 in one or two days and max level in less than a week. I want to be able to feel like the levels are an achievement even if the game feels a bit more grindey (I think grinding can be fun in groups). When I hit level cap I want to look back and remember zones and the mobs in the them like I did with EQ/EQ2. The benefit of a longer leveling curve is the ability to spend more time in zones and therefore more time soaking in the lore and building a connection with the world and the people in it. Call me crazy but I would even welcome hell levels over EZmode MMORPGs that are a dime a dozen nowadays.
I think level cap should take roughly 3 months when playing 4 to 5 hours a day.
I'm curious what others think, post below!
So 360-450 hours to max level is considered to be long nowadays?
Coming from MMORPGs like Lineage 2, I would say multiply those numbers by 3-4 at least .
I think of took most of a year going from 77 to 78 or some such thing.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I'm preparing myself to focus on leveling for a couple years after release (playing a normal amount of time... 4-6 hours or so...every day, longer on weekends) in order to gain all of the progeny bonuses. Only then will it be time to focus on the end game.
We will see how it pans out, but the people who want to make their character as strong as possible will be playing through the levels multiple times.
I've already been telling myself not to waste a lot of time trying to acquire gear since I will be starting over anyway.
I would love a slower leveling pace. It took me 7 months to max level my Paladin in EQ and the journey was a blast. It took longer because I played with crafting and engaged in other activities like helping friends. Of course that was also my first real foray into MMOs so the world and concept was new to me. I think for it to be as enjoyable there also needs to be more engaging combat and other activities to do at the same time (collection, language, lore and legend type progression).
I would like Pantheon even if it was just an updated version of EQ but there are certainly improvements that can be made. The goal, I think, would be to make leveling the secondary focus to enjoying the adventure.
Yeah they should have lots to do at all levels so people are not racing to the max level. The problem in lots of current games is that people race to max level and then they don't have much to do other than a raid or so. Then the company has to constantly try and keep putting out new content for the max level people but they can never keep up. This was a big problem in early EQ, I got to max level in 3 and a half months or so with my bard and was not much to do other than the two dragons. We use to hope that the zones would crash so that it would reset the dragon spawn. It was so boring that I left EQ for a while and did not come back till they added the fear and hate raid zones. I don't think a small company can keep up the content fast enough for the max level raiders. I think they plan to have raids at all levels perhaps they can have items that drops in the lower raids that can be upgraded by something dropped in later level raids that together makes an item that is better than the similar items that drop in the later raid. Also maybe they can have experience so that you can temporary shut it off so that you can raid and explore without advancing level wise.
The main reason I loved slower leveling in the past is because it showed how dedicated individuals were to the class in order to get it up. It also depends on how games structure their "endgame." The old days of FFXI are a good example. Depending on what your linkshell (guild) wanted to do, you could have people from various levels participate in events such as camping HNMs, doing dynamis, group missions, etc which didn't require being at level cap to do them. Today's market is just making people "jacks of all trades" and "masters of none."
Three words. Progression. Progression. Progression. Oh, and I forgot one. Progression. Don't care how they do it but without it things get boring fast. It seems like a simple concept, make players feel like they're accomplishing something, but for some reason it completely escapes so many developers.
Progression is a tricky thing to balance. Too fast and they'll upset the core audience as seen in this thread.
Too slow, (think L2 or FFXI back in the day) and people will also be unhappy.
Have to find the sweet spot, or risk alienating a large portion of the player base.
There's really no perfect middle-ground, due simply to the fact that there are different types of people.
Those achiever types want to level, level, level and see constant progression. The explorer types just want to see everything, which is a problem if you can outlevel zones.
Honestly, the best solution would be to allow people to "nerf" their own experience gains, or lock their level and stop gaining exp. altogether. Something along the lines of the way EQ1 allowed you to funnel exp. into leadership and AAs with a manually set percentage choice.
Or, perhaps, even allow people to go down to any level they choose, at any given time(like GW2, etc., but manually controlled) -- a mentor system that doesn't require you to mentor another player, if you will.
I'd personally rather see fewer levels. I think 30 as the cap would be a nice spot. But, I think they always choose 50+ for the people who just like to see the numbers light up.
I'm not an overall huge fan of level progression, in general. I'm of the mindset that experience should be exactly that, a measure of experience earned over your character's lifetime -- not a power meter. I kind of wish games would get away from that hold-back.
Comments
I like the idea of a smaller number of levels. 20 would be a very nice number, I'd even suggest that 15 would be even more appropriate. At least we wouldn't be as likely to see "Blue Orcs", "Aqua Orcs", "Green Orcs", etc. using the same model every level. Design the number of character levels based on the number of art assets. It will make the journey much more interesting and meaningful. That way, at level 1 characters could fight mobs A, B and C, but at level 2 they would fight C, D and E and each mob would have a unique model and AI.
I agree with the splitting the community aspect of this statement, also.
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
Personally, I won't play it if it's slow. I don't see the point. It's guaranteed that there won't be enough content to fill the void, so you'll be just running around mindlessly grinding until, what? You hit max level and then refocus your grinding on gear? Progression is what kills games. That's not just level progression, but the feeling that you're actually making progress. It's already been said that it will be hard, which will contribute to slowing progression. So making the rewards for accomplishing tasks shitty, as well, it does nothing else than just make people less motivated to play (on the whole).
All this really means is that they need to know what their market is. If they're making a game for 10,000 players or less then maybe brutally slow leveling will work. However, there are great tidbits of information to show that brutally slow progression and punishing gameplay don't encourage continued play.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Sorry, my intent was the LACK of progression. I'd argue that LoL, CSGO, Overwatch, all have progression through competitive multiplayer. Also, they temper that with "Seasons" where progress is reset. Don't get me wrong, some DO have levels, but the barrier to max level is relatively low.
I do enjoy the endgame aspects of MMOs, but I am also about the journey. That being said, what I feel is a waste is a game that fills the game with fluffy content (sandbox or otherwise) to artificially inflate the time spent in the game. I think that's an out-dated idea from the days when subscriptions were king.
Personally, I think if you put a 500-hour journey in front of a user, you'll end up getting a massive separation in your user base, which will end up promoting solo gameplay. That is unless they somehow fix that with their grouping mechanics. They should read that article on creating meaningful relationships, lol.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Proud MMORPG.com member since March 2004! Make PvE GREAT Again!
I self identify as a monkey.
Too slow, (think L2 or FFXI back in the day) and people will also be unhappy.
Have to find the sweet spot, or risk alienating a large portion of the player base.
But perhaps the bigger question is, what is there to do that requires someone to be "Max level?"
In DAOC its when big-boy RVR really got rolling, in EQ I suppose it was high level raiding.
Why someone needs to be max level is important.
"True friends stab you in the front." | Oscar Wilde
"I need to finish" - Christian Wolff: The Accountant
Just trying to live long enough to play a new, released MMORPG, playing New Worlds atm
Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV
Don't just play games, inhabit virtual worlds™
"This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon
The problem is the system is completely out of balance and the core of that is players no longer feel like they have achieved something as they left. Example is Vanilla WOW, you go and run Deadmines, it felt good when you completed the content because it was harder than any dungeon we have today and DM was not really that hard. Its the fact you had to pay attention to everything and have teamwork, none of this smashface hack n slash content we have now.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
We will see how it pans out, but the people who want to make their character as strong as possible will be playing through the levels multiple times.
I've already been telling myself not to waste a lot of time trying to acquire gear since I will be starting over anyway.
I would like Pantheon even if it was just an updated version of EQ but there are certainly improvements that can be made. The goal, I think, would be to make leveling the secondary focus to enjoying the adventure.
Then the company has to constantly try and keep putting out new content for the max level people but they can never keep up.
This was a big problem in early EQ, I got to max level in 3 and a half months or so with my bard and was not much to do other than the two dragons. We use to hope that the zones would crash so that it would reset the dragon spawn. It was so boring that I left EQ for a while and did not come back till they added the fear and hate raid zones.
I don't think a small company can keep up the content fast enough for the max level raiders.
I think they plan to have raids at all levels perhaps they can have items that drops in the lower raids that can be upgraded by something dropped in later level raids that together makes an item that is better than the similar items that drop in the later raid. Also maybe they can have experience so that you can temporary shut it off so that you can raid and explore without advancing level wise.
There's really no perfect middle-ground, due simply to the fact that there are different types of people.
Those achiever types want to level, level, level and see constant progression. The explorer types just want to see everything, which is a problem if you can outlevel zones.
Honestly, the best solution would be to allow people to "nerf" their own experience gains, or lock their level and stop gaining exp. altogether. Something along the lines of the way EQ1 allowed you to funnel exp. into leadership and AAs with a manually set percentage choice.
Or, perhaps, even allow people to go down to any level they choose, at any given time(like GW2, etc., but manually controlled) -- a mentor system that doesn't require you to mentor another player, if you will.
I'd personally rather see fewer levels. I think 30 as the cap would be a nice spot. But, I think they always choose 50+ for the people who just like to see the numbers light up.
I'm not an overall huge fan of level progression, in general. I'm of the mindset that experience should be exactly that, a measure of experience earned over your character's lifetime -- not a power meter.
I kind of wish games would get away from that hold-back.