Must be really nice to live in a part of the world, where there are no wars, no random or deliberate deaths, no sickness to fear, no old age to worry about.
Can I move in to where you guys live? Cause you seem to wanna find danger in games, while I play games to escape the reality of those things.
Wow, so if people find that death in a video game enhances their experience, they must therefore be delusional or living in an alternate universe.
Condescend much?
No, I am not trying to be condescending. I am very literal. People who tries to be condescending seems to want to hurt others. This was not at all the aim with my post.
I would enjoy living in a world that was free of real dangers so I could enjoy this "fun danger" in games.
Sadly that is not how reality is for me, I am always afraid and try to hide in games where these dangers can be forgotten for awhile. They wont go away, I am well aware of that, but I use these games to escape and have a break from dangers, not push myself further into fear and stress.
The fact you guys manage to somehow ignore reality enough, to find it amusing to seek dangers in a game, brings me envy. I wish I could do, what you guys do.
I think the death penalty wasn't so much the issue, it was moreso that you could lose levels. I think if people knew they couldn't lose levels, you can still have a reasonably harsh death penalty and it won't cause extreme butthurt.
The simple fact is that without some reasonably harsh penalty for getting killed, it removes any sense of fear or danger, as well as having to think through or plan your actions. If you know that when you die you're just gonna pop up with all your stuff, lose an inconsequential amount of XP and go along your way, then why should you have to plan the fight, why should you have to learn how to play better, why should you have to decide whether to go to the more dangerous dungeon with better loot than the easier dungeon with easier loot.
It boggles my mind that people sit here and come into this forum and argue that pantheon should be like every other MMO in existence. The reason this game exists is to get away from the faceroll content, the teleporting around, the lack of class interdependency etc etc.
Does it need to be as harsh and unforgiving as early EQ was? No, but it needs to be closer to that than it is to modern MMOs. Otherwise just hang up your hats, or release another POS cash shop laden game that gets forgotten about in 3 months.
No one is saying it has to be like every MMO. Most are simply sharing concerns about how they handle the negative effects (unintended consequences) that have been long standing in some of these designs being proposed. There were lots of system related problems with certain features of older games, hence why many of those systems were replaced or completely done away with as they had found better ways to represent those things, or they were found to be undesirable. .
What's truly mind boggling is thinking it has to be the other extreme that folks are asking for (modern games as you describe them).. That's essentially burying your head in the sand and missing what is actually being said.
The only one burying their head in the sand is you. Go look at the posts in this thread and other threads. Just recently there was one where a guy was arguing for the complete removal of death penalties because in his view they caused people to go from hunky dorey twiddly dinks to hating the mere sight of each other, that it caused cascading blame, etc etc. These kind of posts crop up weekly on this forum.
I agree with you that there were lots of system problems and that they were later changed. I'll give you an example. In EQ when they came out with Planes of Power. The created "graveyards". This was a change I fully supported. The reason was that if after 24 hours you hadn't retrieved your corpse, it would pop up in the graveyard. This was important because there were situations, albeit rare, where you could lose literally everything. I for example had a raid wipe in fear with my guild once, my corpse was less than 12 hours from rotting and were it not for one of the premier guilds on the server coming in and helping us clear up to our corpses, many of us would have lost all of our items permanently.
Nobody is saying that we want a carbon copy of EQ, what we are saying is that we want many of the aspects of EQ that we feel worked in unison to create a much better game than what is out now. I and most of the fans of this project feel pretty strongly that a removal of a harsh death penalty is one of the primary reasons for the ultra casualization of modern mmos and thus is why were are so anal retentive when people suggest removing it.
That first paragraph was me.
By far I don't believe in the complete removal of death penalties. But don't punish the entire group for a single death. I'm saying make it on them alone " very harsh ". If it's someone else's fault then yes, let the group argue.
Long corps runs make the entire group mad. This is when arguments start.
I don't think ANYONE likes an easy mmo. Make the game hard and unforgiving.
But encourage grouping !.....Remove the fear of grouping !!!!!.... Make people fear the game not the group!!
So in the end. Let's all please stop trying to ruin someone else's gaming experience with " I " and " me "
The real issue is when people use the "We" or "They" instead of the "I", which in Pantheon threads happens quite often as usually people tend to speak for others.
The biggest draw for me in this genre was when I first started EQ in 99....You were just thrown into the world and only had your small starting town.....You had no idea what dangers were out there and how far you could stray from home...It was a fun feeling and I have never found another game that did that again...Everything now is so controlled and calculated....Hopefully this game returns the danger to the genre.
The problem with more danger up to and including perma-death is that they all force you to repeat content you've already done or grind even more if you lose XP. That may have worked in sub games but cash shop games that sell convenience?
Relief from the inconvenience would be monetized so quickly it'd make your head spin.
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The problem with more danger up to and including perma-death is that they all force you to repeat content you've already done or grind even more if you lose XP. That may have worked in sub games but cash shop games that sell convenience?
Relief from the inconvenience would be monetized so quickly it'd make your head spin.
Sorry I don't understand.
Are you referring to Pantheon: ROTF as a cash shop game?
No, I was talking in general. Didn't even realize this was a thread in the Pantheon forum... (goes back to the kitchen for even more coffee)
"Social media gives legions of idiots the right to speak when they once only spoke at a bar after a glass of wine, without harming the community ... but now they have the same right to speak as a Nobel Prize winner. It's the invasion of the idiots”
― Umberto Eco
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” ― CD PROJEKT RED
The best way to add a feeling of pure danger for most Pantheon fans is:
Every time any player dies, the game does an RNG roll to add a cash shop to Pantheon.
I cant think of anything else that would terrify OP more.
You are a bad man, Mr Kano.
You probably just gave the OP nightmares for weeks to come now.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
Must be really nice to live in a part of the world, where there are no wars, no random or deliberate deaths, no sickness to fear, no old age to worry about.
Can I move in to where you guys live? Cause you seem to wanna find danger in games, while I play games to escape the reality of those things.
Wow, so if people find that death in a video game enhances their experience, they must therefore be delusional or living in an alternate universe.
Condescend much?
No, I am not trying to be condescending. I am very literal. People who tries to be condescending seems to want to hurt others. This was not at all the aim with my post.
I would enjoy living in a world that was free of real dangers so I could enjoy this "fun danger" in games.
Sadly that is not how reality is for me, I am always afraid and try to hide in games where these dangers can be forgotten for awhile. They wont go away, I am well aware of that, but I use these games to escape and have a break from dangers, not push myself further into fear and stress.
The fact you guys manage to somehow ignore reality enough, to find it amusing to seek dangers in a game, brings me envy. I wish I could do, what you guys do.
If real world dangers surrounded you I wouldn't think the death penalties of a video game you played would matter one way or another. This angle seems like a red herring in the absence of a better argument. The reason I bring this up is because it's a pointed comment towards those who want death penalties and paints them as being petty in the face of real life suffering.
They are two entirely separate arguments IMO.
Edit: I do want to add that if you live in an environment that is dangerous I pray for your safety and am glad you find ways to cope with it. My comments above came off a bit pointed and I'll take responsibility for what I posted but I wanted to point out I'm empathetic to your situation.
The problem with more danger up to and including perma-death is that they all force you to repeat content you've already done or grind even more if you lose XP. That may have worked in sub games but cash shop games that sell convenience?
Relief from the inconvenience would be monetized so quickly it'd make your head spin.
Sorry I don't understand.
Are you referring to Pantheon: ROTF as a cash shop game?
No, I was talking in general. Didn't even realize this was a thread in the Pantheon forum... (goes back to the kitchen for even more coffee)
It's okay. If you're like me you look from your phone on the Recent Discussions section. Only when you enter the thread does it show the specific subforum
Must be really nice to live in a part of the world, where there are no wars, no random or deliberate deaths, no sickness to fear, no old age to worry about.
Can I move in to where you guys live? Cause you seem to wanna find danger in games, while I play games to escape the reality of those things.
Wow, so if people find that death in a video game enhances their experience, they must therefore be delusional or living in an alternate universe.
Condescend much?
No, I am not trying to be condescending. I am very literal. People who tries to be condescending seems to want to hurt others. This was not at all the aim with my post.
I would enjoy living in a world that was free of real dangers so I could enjoy this "fun danger" in games.
Sadly that is not how reality is for me, I am always afraid and try to hide in games where these dangers can be forgotten for awhile. They wont go away, I am well aware of that, but I use these games to escape and have a break from dangers, not push myself further into fear and stress.
The fact you guys manage to somehow ignore reality enough, to find it amusing to seek dangers in a game, brings me envy. I wish I could do, what you guys do.
If real world dangers surrounded you I wouldn't think the death penalties of a video game you played would matter one way or another. This angle seems like a red herring in the absence of a better argument. The reason I bring this up is because it's a pointed comment towards those who want death penalties and paints them as being petty in the face of real life suffering.
They are two entirely separate things.
How you perceive what I say, I have no real control over. When I say something though, I try to go as close to my inner honesty as possible. If you then choose to still read what I write as dishonest/ a red herring, then there is not much I can do about that.
How you think real life connects to a game, you can not really decide on my behalf though. Imo I find reality to have enough dangers, challenges and punishment, I dont need that in a game also.
I did however briefly stray away from directly approaching the topic on its own though, which in hin sight, I should not have done. I just scribbled a few of the first sentences that came to my mind, that had relevance to myself.
As a direct approach, I would like a PvE game, that isnt made up of gore, hardcore challenges and other stressful factors, that would bring a poor experience to me.
Seeing the posts in this thread though, I see people want something entirely different than what I would like.
I do not judge them for it, people want what they want and life is so short for everybody, that I can only wish that people will at least achieve some of the things they wish for.
My only personal regret is, that I know, that while I wish the best for everybody else, I know its not a two way street. I will not find people who wish for me, that the game of my dreams will one day be designed.
But that is just how a part of reality is. My reality. Yours might be different.
Best wishes and may Pantheon be exactly, down to the smallest detail, the way you wish it to be.
Wildstar was a totally different game, and it's failure had nothing to do with death penalty.
Their failure was focusing on a concept of hardcore and only hardcore, as well as listening to an echo chamber of hardcore....
The big difference, and reason why Wildstar is irrelevant, is that Pantheon is not a hardcore exclusive game. The death penalty alone did not make EQ a hardcore-only game, nor will it with Pantheon.
If it has EQ1 death penalties it absolutely will fall flat on it's face. I would bet a grand on that.
Current EQ1 penalties are not that bad. The days when you left your items on your corpse are long (10 years?) gone. Nowadays you summon your own corpse at the corpse summoning npc (small fee), then pop your healer merc and get your res. The penalty is having to get new buffs and run back.
Must be really nice to live in a part of the world, where there are no wars, no random or deliberate deaths, no sickness to fear, no old age to worry about.
Can I move in to where you guys live? Cause you seem to wanna find danger in games, while I play games to escape the reality of those things.
Wow, so if people find that death in a video game enhances their experience, they must therefore be delusional or living in an alternate universe.
Condescend much?
No, I am not trying to be condescending. I am very literal. People who tries to be condescending seems to want to hurt others. This was not at all the aim with my post.
I would enjoy living in a world that was free of real dangers so I could enjoy this "fun danger" in games.
Sadly that is not how reality is for me, I am always afraid and try to hide in games where these dangers can be forgotten for awhile. They wont go away, I am well aware of that, but I use these games to escape and have a break from dangers, not push myself further into fear and stress.
The fact you guys manage to somehow ignore reality enough, to find it amusing to seek dangers in a game, brings me envy. I wish I could do, what you guys do.
If real world dangers surrounded you I wouldn't think the death penalties of a video game you played would matter one way or another. This angle seems like a red herring in the absence of a better argument. The reason I bring this up is because it's a pointed comment towards those who want death penalties and paints them as being petty in the face of real life suffering.
They are two entirely separate things.
How you perceive what I say, I have no real control over. When I say something though, I try to go as close to my inner honesty as possible. If you then choose to still read what I write as dishonest/ a red herring, then there is not much I can do about that.
How you think real life connects to a game, you can not really decide on my behalf though. Imo I find reality to have enough dangers, challenges and punishment, I dont need that in a game also.
I did however briefly stray away from directly approaching the topic on its own though, which in hin sight, I should not have done. I just scribbled a few of the first sentences that came to my mind, that had relevance to myself.
As a direct approach, I would like a PvE game, that isnt made up of gore, hardcore challenges and other stressful factors, that would bring a poor experience to me.
Seeing the posts in this thread though, I see people want something entirely different than what I would like.
I do not judge them for it, people want what they want and life is so short for everybody, that I can only wish that people will at least achieve some of the things they wish for.
My only personal regret is, that I know, that while I wish the best for everybody else, I know its not a two way street. I will not find people who wish for me, that the game of my dreams will one day be designed.
But that is just how a part of reality is. My reality. Yours might be different.
Best wishes and may Pantheon be exactly, down to the smallest detail, the way you wish it to be.
Fair enough and I agree that we all perceive and want different things. I did edit my post from what you had quoted. You may have already seen it but bringing it up just in case you hadn't.
Fair enough and I agree that we all perceive and want different things. I did edit my post from what you had quoted. You may have already seen it but bringing it up just in case you hadn't.
No problems at all. Been back to your post now and read your new bit. Thank you for the kind words and tenfold back at you.
I am missing a thank you option in the click things menu under posts. But I guess some people would abuse it, like some people already kind of use the LOL button as a snort reply. Still, Id have liked a thank you button in this case.
Not every game will be for everyone. Some people value those little inconveniences because they create a more immersive virtual world. They want to have to "repeat content" when they fail, because that is what creates that tension, gives success a greater sense of accomplishment, and again, makes the world feel like it's alive and active apart from what is happening around you. Hence the reason why older games without the ability to save at any time, seemed more intense and engaging.
That said, I think people are going to be surprised how much more enjoyable a game with those little hardships will be once they start playing it.
If the game is designed to kill you, you're going to die, paying attention or not.
Death penalties are fine, it's just certain death penalties are better than others. If you want XP loss/level loss, just implement those things, if you want item loss, implement it. There are much better ways to handle this than corpse runs. Level loss/Xp can be implemented across the board based on risk of the encounter, the harder the fight, the more penalty on death. Item loss can be handled through item degradation systems. I'd prefer just straight up loss, rather than a boring function like corpse runs.
I also like downtime causing effects like combat fatigue, health pool wounds etc, that grow worse over time, until healed.
Design just to kill you is poor design, they can do that with GM commands. The game should be designed for immersion and fear of death is part of that. Harsh death penalties aren't there with the assumption you should never die, it's to encourage doing everything in your power to stop it.
We don't need another MMO where max level toons run around with impunity, suiciding through dungeons because hey why not.
That was essentially my point, I find corpse runs to spoil the immersion, more so than the types of penalty I described.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson
Comments
No, I am not trying to be condescending. I am very literal. People who tries to be condescending seems to want to hurt others. This was not at all the aim with my post.
I would enjoy living in a world that was free of real dangers so I could enjoy this "fun danger" in games.
Sadly that is not how reality is for me, I am always afraid and try to hide in games where these dangers can be forgotten for awhile.
They wont go away, I am well aware of that, but I use these games to escape and have a break from dangers, not push myself further into fear and stress.
The fact you guys manage to somehow ignore reality enough, to find it amusing to seek dangers in a game, brings me envy.
I wish I could do, what you guys do.
That first paragraph was me.
By far I don't believe in the complete removal of death penalties. But don't punish the entire group for a single death. I'm saying make it on them alone " very harsh ". If it's someone else's fault then yes, let the group argue.
Long corps runs make the entire group mad. This is when arguments start.
I don't think ANYONE likes an easy mmo. Make the game hard and unforgiving.
But encourage grouping !.....Remove the fear of grouping !!!!!.... Make people fear the game not the group!!
I'm a MUDder. I play MUDs.
Current: Dragonrealms
Relief from the inconvenience would be monetized so quickly it'd make your head spin.
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
“Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?”
― CD PROJEKT RED
You probably just gave the OP nightmares for weeks to come now.
My SWTOR referral link for those wanting to give the game a try. (Newbies get a welcome package while returning players get a few account upgrades to help with their preferred status.)
https://www.ashesofcreation.com/ref/Callaron/
They are two entirely separate arguments IMO.
Edit: I do want to add that if you live in an environment that is dangerous I pray for your safety and am glad you find ways to cope with it. My comments above came off a bit pointed and I'll take responsibility for what I posted but I wanted to point out I'm empathetic to your situation.
How you perceive what I say, I have no real control over. When I say something though, I try to go as close to my inner honesty as possible.
If you then choose to still read what I write as dishonest/ a red herring, then there is not much I can do about that.
How you think real life connects to a game, you can not really decide on my behalf though. Imo I find reality to have enough dangers, challenges and punishment, I dont need that in a game also.
I did however briefly stray away from directly approaching the topic on its own though, which in hin sight, I should not have done. I just scribbled a few of the first sentences that came to my mind, that had relevance to myself.
As a direct approach, I would like a PvE game, that isnt made up of gore, hardcore challenges and other stressful factors, that would bring a poor experience to me.
Seeing the posts in this thread though, I see people want something entirely different than what I would like.
I do not judge them for it, people want what they want and life is so short for everybody, that I can only wish that people will at least achieve some of the things they wish for.
My only personal regret is, that I know, that while I wish the best for everybody else, I know its not a two way street.
I will not find people who wish for me, that the game of my dreams will one day be designed.
But that is just how a part of reality is. My reality. Yours might be different.
Best wishes and may Pantheon be exactly, down to the smallest detail, the way you wish it to be.
Been back to your post now and read your new bit.
Thank you for the kind words and tenfold back at you.
I am missing a thank you option in the click things menu under posts. But I guess some people would abuse it, like some people already kind of use the LOL button as a snort reply.
Still, Id have liked a thank you button in this case.
So here it is, thank you and may you stay safe
That said, I think people are going to be surprised how much more enjoyable a game with those little hardships will be once they start playing it.
For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson