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What should be the primary deciding factor in combat?

45074507 Member UncommonPosts: 351
edited January 2017 in The Pub at MMORPG.COM
Before someone says they want a mix of these... I deliberately didn't include a mix option because that would result in very unhelpful data. Obviously any combat system can't function well with 100% one of these, so the options are for the primary deciding factor, that is, the factor that matters the most in combat. It could be 26% of what matters while each other option is 24.67%, or it could matter a great deal more, but the main point is that it is the primary deciding factor.
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Comments

  • somersaultsamsomersaultsam Member UncommonPosts: 230
    For me it is 100% player skill.  It is why I do not play mmo pvp; more multiplayer shooters. Gear/ level advantages make pvp pointless for me. 

  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    4507 said:
    Before someone says they want a mix of these... I deliberately didn't include a mix option because that would result in very unhelpful data. Obviously any combat system can't function well with 100% one of these, so the options are for the primary deciding factor, that is, the factor that matters the most in combat. It could be 26% of what matters while each other option is 24.67%, or it could matter a great deal more, but the main point is that it is the primary deciding factor.

    Why can't a combat system be 100% skill based? 
    ....
  • k61977k61977 Member EpicPosts: 1,500
    Depends on what type of game you are playing to be honest.  If you are playing a game where you have to level up a skill to us it effectively then it doesn't matter how good of a player you are if the skill will miss every time you us it.  You need to tell what type of system you are talking about before asking a poll like that.   Are you referring to an action combat kind of game where you are just given skills freely, then I would say player skill.  But if like the example I stated you have to learn the skills themselves and level them up I would say character skill.  If you are talking about a PvE only game where the goal is to collect more powerful gear to be able to do more content then the answer becomes gear.  Whereas this same thing collecting more powerful gear in a PvP game is a bad example of how to do it, in which case is should most definitely be player skill.  So like I said you need to state some more parameters the question is to open ended.

  • kitaradkitarad Member LegendaryPosts: 7,885
    If you mean player skill by how fast they can twitch or press keys then I would have to say not that. However if you mean more strategically and not relying on action combat then its player skill. Anyway I just think it would depend on the game. You have to be more specific.

  • TheodwulfTheodwulf Member UncommonPosts: 311
     If you want "player skill", then why have characters progression at all, why play a mmoRPG at all, just play a FPS. "Action Combat" is one of the reasons I don't play any MMORPGs now.
  • LokeroLokero Member RarePosts: 1,514
    Gorwe said:
    Please elaborate more on those options. How does a "character skill" option differ from either luck or gear?
    This is really the problem with this type of poll -- the line between the options is incredibly blurry.

    Isn't "character skill" pretty much luck-based, for example?

    And "player skill" can cover a wide array of systems, as well.  This could mean anything from FPS-targetting to manual block/dodge mechanis to simple strategic use of spell choices.  It could be anything from shooter to tab-target games, etc.  Even most "character skill" systems have an element of player skill involved.

    Still, I generally prefer "player skill" to be a factor regardless of the system being used. 

    I generally hate "luck" being a major factor, all around.
  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,142
    Class skills and gear are tools, its up to players to use it correctly to succeed or fail. The consequence of making character skills the deciding factor is that you immediately end up with fotm compositions where its most important to play the right class. The consequence of gear is that you steamroll content because you are overgeared for the place. Luck has always been bad.
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • sibs4455sibs4455 Member UncommonPosts: 369
    Most  gamers use Voice, scripts, macro's and addons these days, the only time you won't see this is when events are broadcast.
    If you don't use any of the above then you will be just cannon fodder.

  • ShaighShaigh Member EpicPosts: 2,142
    Theodwulf said:
     If you want "player skill", then why have characters progression at all, why play a mmoRPG at all, just play a FPS. "Action Combat" is one of the reasons I don't play any MMORPGs now.
    If you want just character skill, play a tabletop RPG, not a computer RPG or MMORPG.
    See what I did here ? ;)
    It is still an RPG / MMORPG though.Tabletop or computer is just a platform on which you play it. Why would you change core principles of the genre just because of the platform you play it on?

    As I said in the previous post, I am not saying ALL fantasy online games have to be about vertical progression. There is room for both. I just would not call those player skill based MMORPGs. 
    In most themepark mmorpg zones have levels, quests have levels, monsters have levels so that players can fight against enemies that gives you an appropriate challenge so that player skills becomes the deciding factor.
    Iselin: And the next person who says "but it's a business, they need to make money" can just go fuck yourself.
  • iixviiiixiixviiiix Member RarePosts: 2,256
    Is strategy also count as player's skill ?

  • R_M_BR_M_B Member UncommonPosts: 42
    LUCK

    It is not obvious at first, but when you think about it - it is the only logical answer.

    Player skill, character level and gear should matter, but when you overrate one of it you get either:
     - reflex race with 13yo
     - speed run to max and then get bored
     - raid, raid, raid. And  farmers.
    So skills, level and gear should be balanced. And when you balance it right the deciding factor that is left is luck.






      
    B)
  • IselinIselin Member LegendaryPosts: 18,719
    WMDs
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    ― Umberto Eco

    “Microtransactions? In a single player role-playing game? Are you nuts?” 
    ― CD PROJEKT RED

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko Member EpicPosts: 6,916
    Twitch skills are primarily eye/hand co-ordination, ambidexterity and muscle memory.

    If you can execute complex keyboard combo's without even looking at the keys, while accurately controlling the mouse with the other hand, you will pwn !

    Knowing exactly what do is useless if you cannot do it in a split second...
  • ScotchUpScotchUp Member UncommonPosts: 228
    I went character skill.

    As long as they can't stop the bots and cheating there really is no way to have any skill during combat other than speed which is why we have bots.
    “The reason I talk to myself is because I’m the only one whose answers I accept.”
    George Carlin
  • NightliteNightlite Member UncommonPosts: 227
    Connection speed.
  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 520
    edited January 2017
    In an MMORPG...and I am talking MMORPGs not the new themepark MMO genre that evolved from them, vertical progression of the character should be the most significant factor determining outcome of an encounter. 

    Vertical progression is a combination of character skill, gear and other eventual ways to progress your character in that particular MMORPG. I voted character skill because an option covering all elements of vertical progression is not included in your poll.

    The idea that player skills should be the major component determining outcomes of the encounters was brought to the genre later when it became more popular due to successful games which managed to attract players from other genres.

    I am not saying there should not be games, even MMO fantasy games for which it should be the player skills deciding combat results. They just are not MMORPGs, in my opinion.

    I just want to add that I am saying this as a player of competitive online games. I spent almost 4 000 hours in CSGO, several hundred hours playing arena in WoW, etc. I do like this type of games. However, having player skills decide combat outcomes goes against core principles of MMORPGs, IMO. 




    Taxis were originally horse-drawn carriages. Clearly taxis of today are not taxis, as they do not involve horses and instead use engines (a far superior mode of creating forward motion for a wheeled vehicle).

    Your logic is so very flawed. 

    Core principles of MMORPGs? What are those exactly? Here, let me pull out my MMORPG Creator's Guidebook and turn to the chapter on 'Core Principles'.

    MMORPG - is a term coined to succinctly define a genre of games with similar attributes. It IS NOT a mold, schematic, or otherwise set-in-stone methodology to creating or designing a game. If MMORPG applies to a game's design, as it is the most appropriate moniker for the genre of said game, then that game will likely be called an MMORPG.

    This question comes down to opinion, not fact. Every game I have played, for any significant amount of time, that involved vertical progression (WoW, SWTOR, ESO, Asheron's Call, SWG etc.) required both character AND player skill. For me, and I believe many others (based on the poll results), if player skill is not a significant factor in the outcome of combat, then it is not enjoyable. A great example of this is getting ganked, if you are a level 10 and a level 100 comes up and whacks you in the face once killing you, that is not good design or fun. However, if you are level 10 and a level 100 comes up and starts to whack you in the face, but you use a dodge ability and get a few hits in, and the fight ends (still with you dead) but you got him down a good amount of health...that is a better design.

    EDIT: Not to mention one of the biggest first generation MMORPGs was EverQuest and it was the first Themepark MMORPG. 'Themepark' did not evolve from MMORPGs, the 'Themepark' has always been one subset of the genre.
    Post edited by SirAgravaine on
  • TheocritusTheocritus Member LegendaryPosts: 9,739
    kitarad said:
    If you mean player skill by how fast they can twitch or press keys then I would have to say not that. However if you mean more strategically and not relying on action combat then its player skill. Anyway I just think it would depend on the game. You have to be more specific.
    Yeah player skill is always a little bit fuzzy....I mean we are just pressing buttons, it isnt rocket science.
  • RidelynnRidelynn Member EpicPosts: 7,383
    I don't know why this has to be a static answer.

    Why can't games run the spectrum (kinda like they do now). I mean, at one end you have games like Quake, where "characters" are homogenzied and it's 100% player skill based, and when you improve your game improves. On the other end, you have games like Diablo where advancement is nearly entirely character development (levels and gear), and player skill isn't so much a factor at all. And then you have everything in between.

    Personally, I suck, so I prefer games closer on the character development side of the scale. Sure, I have room for improvement, but I just can't physically improve my own game play to a point where I enjoy the skill-based games as much. For me to "advance", I have more fun advancing a character, because I can accomplish some measurable improvement there, whereas personally my improvement is slow, frustrating, and I don't have a lot of the time that it requires to work at any longer. But I can understand people who like the personal challenge, and I applaud those people, it's just that I'm not one of them.

    It's not like it has to be an either/or for the entire industry. There is no "right" answer. 
  • SirAgravaineSirAgravaine Member RarePosts: 520
    edited January 2017
    In an MMORPG...and I am talking MMORPGs not the new themepark MMO genre that evolved from them, vertical progr....



    Taxis were originally horse-drawn carriages. Clearly taxis of today are not taxis, as they do not involve horses and instead use engines (a far superior mode of creating forward motion for a wheeled vehicle).

    Your logic is so very flawed....
    The core "principle" (or purpose in this case) of taxi service is transport of passengers. The very core principle of a role playing game or its massively multiplayer online version is avatar development.

    Today's so called MMORPGs tuned the avatar development element down and started focusing on other elements borrowed from other genres, such as FPS or MOBA. Strengthening of the role of horizontal progression and player skills in determining the outcomes of encounters is an example of this genre evolution / blur. This was supported by, for instance, the tendency to establish level playing field in the games and the implementation of new types of combat systems (e.g. action combat). 

    It is not that horse-drawn carriages were substituted by cars with engines, but that horse-drawn carriages are no longer used for transporting passengers, bur rather for delivering food. They are no longer taxis. 

    The question in the OP is not what should be the exclusive factor determining outcome of encounters, but what should be the most significant factor. I never said that player's skills should not play any role at all, but they should not be the most significant determining factor.

    Just because someone is better in mashing buttons does not mean that they should kill a superior avatar with an inferior one in an MMORPG. In FPS, MOBA, MMOGs, why not, but not in an MMORPG.

    I think this was a general consensus 20 years ago. However, the RPGs / MMORPGs have never been defined in such manner to allow us to strictly say which game does and which game does not belong to this genre, so it does come down to opinion rather than fact.

    So feel free to disagree and insult me by saying that my logic is so very flawed. I dont know why I am wasting time defending a genre that is several decades old and which is pretty much dead anyway.

    "A role-playing game (RPG and sometimes roleplaying game) is a game in which players assume the roles of characters in a fictional setting. Players take responsibility for acting out these roles within a narrative, either through literal acting or through a process of structured decision-making or character development." 

    You are mistaken in assuming that RPG's main principle is vertical character development.

    Horizontal progression and player skill is not blurring genres. Genres are not locked into a certain subset of features and designs. Asheron's Call was one of the first generation MMORPGs and back in 1999 it had skill-based combat interaction via the ability to dodge projectiles (arrows) and spells. Planetside released before World of Warcraft. To be frank, I think your understanding of the genre is a bit skewed by your own narrow experiences with the genre.

    A taxi is a taxi, and is called such because of what it does (taxis people around), not for the means by which it does it. Therefore an MMORPG is an MMORPG, and is called such because of what it does (brings players together in a large world, incorporating character-driven gameplay), not for the means by which it does it.

    The question that the OP stated is not asking the exclusive factor, but the most important one. If the most important factor of combat was vertical progression or character development a duel between two level 100's one with 99 agility the other with 100 agility, would always see the 100 agility character as the victor (this is bad design).

    The cornerstone of RPGs is that skills and attributes provide an interpretation of the skill and physical characteristics of a player character, but RPGs have ALWAYS incorporated both player skill and luck into the equation (read: decision making and die rolls). You interpret player skill as being defined by "mashing buttons" whereas I interpret player skill as being defined as the aptitude a player has for making decisions and using actions to the advantage of their character.

    An MMORPG is about bringing large groups of players in a single world in which those players can assume roles of characters. Fact, not opinion.

    If you are so easily insulted (by your logic to be called flawed) I would suggest not frequenting forums, or the internet for that matter.
  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Member RarePosts: 1,607
    What's the point of PVP'ing if anything besides player skill is the deciding factor? I can't stand MMO PVP when it's heavily gear based and class based. I'm fine with overcoming an unfavorable match-up or gear disparity with skill/knowledge so long as it isn't tilted too heavily.

    I'm not interested in playing a game where one class loses to another class 80% of the time because of what they chose on the character select screen. I'm also not interested in playing a game where I lose because of a gear disparity so large that I stand no chance of winning. 

    So with that said, I can't stand the majority of PVP in MMORPGs. Blade&Soul has the best PVP (arena) in the entire genre when it comes to balance. Player skill > everything in B&S. 

    I'd love an open world sandbox-ish PVP game i.e. Archeage or BDO, but class balance in both are atrocious, and in both games, gear > skill every time, which is also a huge turnoff. 
  • Octagon7711Octagon7711 Member LegendaryPosts: 9,000
    edited January 2017
    I like flexible characters with morphing skills like Druids in WoW, and wish they were more like that in most games.  

    Traditionally the reward for superior player skills is nerfing key character skills to keep a level playing field.  The system is designed to keep everyone normal with a slight advantage to make players feel a little good about themselves, sometimes.

    And the primary deciding factor in combat should be fluid and intuitive combat mechanics.

    "We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa      "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are."  SR Covey

  • jusomdudejusomdude Member RarePosts: 2,706
    Id say gear because usually all players have access to eqaul gear without a huge investment as opposed to leveling a character which takes awhile but varies depending on the game of coarse.  I don't really like class based pvp with tons of abilities without the possability to easily change because then its just a case of who has the better toolkit, usually cc, and who the devs choose to favor in the arms race. Assuming equal gear and one class and no luck based mechanics it should then boil down to player skill.
  • anemoanemo Member RarePosts: 1,903
    Wish I could say it's supposed to be player skill.   But DEVs will mostly take that as their needing to be yet another action combat game, when I meant something requiring more intuition (like the game Lover Letter, Captain Sonar, or most of the hidden traitor games).

    However just about any game mechanic in an MMO environment will lead to it mostly being luck.   Catching your target when they are busy, being over leveled/geared/whatever compared to your target,  catching your target while they are resting, know X event will happen, or similar.   Most PvPer in MMO games is mostly to attempting to set up the board so that more factors are hopefully in your favor.    (In a more limited game like a board game such mechanics wouldn't really be luck, but in an MMO I really feel that they are since unlike in the board game you don't have control/witness/influence over the entire game or your possible enemies)

    _______________________

    Which is why MOBAs have been really popular.  Because you can have an awesome experience that you know is different every time.

    Though MMOs will have a pretty neat resurgence when devs finally figure out procedural generation, and how to apply it to NPC personalities/stories/quests.

    Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent.

    "At one point technology meant making tech that could get to the moon, now it means making tech that could get you a taxi."

  • cameltosiscameltosis Member LegendaryPosts: 3,703
    I can't see how it can be anything other than player skill. 

    The further you move away from player skill (which includes not only reflexes for dodging, movement and aiming, but also in selecting the right skills to use at the right time, co-ordinating with other people, prediction of opponents attacks etc), the more combat becomes observational and can no longer be called gameplay. 


    For example, if the outcome of combat was 100% about character skill, then combat would be a case of two characters approaching one another, pressing a button to initiate combat, at which point the outcome is known and one wins, the other loses. I can't see how anyone could find that fun, it certainly can't be called gameplay. 

    Gear is the same as character skill - if the outcome was 100% about gear, then player input and character progression become entirely meaningless and combat, again, boils down to just watching what your character does, rather than, you know, playing the game. 



    These days, its all a balancing act. Character skill and gear deliberately unbalance combat and reduce the importance of player skill. But, the question is what *should* be the deciding factor, and it should be player skill. 
  • YashaXYashaX Member EpicPosts: 3,098
    I can't see how it can be anything other than player skill. 

    The further you move away from player skill (which includes not only reflexes for dodging, movement and aiming, but also in selecting the right skills to use at the right time, co-ordinating with other people, prediction of opponents attacks etc), the more combat becomes observational and can no longer be called gameplay. 


    For example, if the outcome of combat was 100% about character skill, then combat would be a case of two characters approaching one another, pressing a button to initiate combat, at which point the outcome is known and one wins, the other loses. I can't see how anyone could find that fun, it certainly can't be called gameplay. 

    Gear is the same as character skill - if the outcome was 100% about gear, then player input and character progression become entirely meaningless and combat, again, boils down to just watching what your character does, rather than, you know, playing the game. 



    These days, its all a balancing act. Character skill and gear deliberately unbalance combat and reduce the importance of player skill. But, the question is what *should* be the deciding factor, and it should be player skill. 
    That was really well said, on all points.

    So much of mmo combat (pvp) plays as you describe above: unless the two players have similar gear/levels the outcome is a forgone conclusion and is generally a miserable experience for the undergeared player.

    Similarly with pve, I think it is fair to say the majority of players are looking for some sort of challenge: there is a point where no amount of player skill can compensate for being undergeared (which will differ depending on the mechanics of the game), and a point when it becomes so easy that it is boring.

    So in both pvp and pve, you can basically measure the fun factor of a game by the extent to which it facilitates allowing a player to succeed through using their skill to overcome challenges.

    One difference between pve and pvp, is that some pvp players revel in the feeling of power they get from easily killing undergeared players, and mmo pvp mostly caters to this crowd.

    I have never seen people boasting of how their max level toon sporting all epic gear and the best consumables took out massive groups of low level pve trash mobs in a starter area: but for pvp, people will make videos of equivalent pvp actions and think its really cool. 
    ....
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