So the grind is better than the challenge? Because the repetitiveness is equal to lack of challenge. I mean, I understand how the combat system may be fun. But what is the point to fight, when there is no challenge?
Is there no hobby you enjoy that is repetitive and not particularly challenging? Like painting, throwing pottery, doing yoga, walking a dog in nice weather....?
I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story. So PM me if you are starting one.
I have a few dynamic events I really like in GW2 that I grind just because I enjoy it so much and also use it to test build changes. Once when playing L2 someone said they thought I was a bot for spending so much time, 2 boxing mobs in the same area.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
OK, as obviously here are many people who understand it, I have a question - how repetitive killing of one mob over and over again for hours could be fun?
For me, it's a way I like to relax when I just need to chill for an hour or two each day. My work involves a lot of reading, writing, analysis, etc. My brain just needs some down time. At those times, I don't feel like reading a book and I don't watch TV.
In my game, I don't feel like reading quests, solving puzzles, doing group activities, etc. Grinding is perfect for an hour or two. It's even better if I can make some sort of progress on my character (gold, skills, reputation, whatever).
ikcin said: But still I do not understand how that is entertaining. It is like working on assembly line. Hour after hour doing the same move.
Psychologically probably you feel relaxed because you win over and over again, and there is no real danger. Or the simple repetition, like the mantras of the buddhist monks, makes you feel calm. But in general it seems to me like a terribly boring thing. Well, I admit running to NPCs for pointless text dialogs is even more boring.
Yes, it is like this. I guess it could be like playing solitaire, knitting, putting together a plastic model, painting your Warhammer figures, chanting. It can be relaxing and I don't really think of it as "entertainment" though it could be. I don't like to grind all the time. But sometimes I just want to do it for an hour or two.
If I want a challenge (sometimes I do) I know where to find it. I can play a pvp game or some other game that requires focus and concentration. Sometimes I'm in the mood for that.
I don't need any danger any more. I used to find it interesting, but as I've gotten older, I've tended to be less interested in getting the adrenaline pumping.
Right now, I'm really enjoying grinding in the Midtown level of Marvel Heros. Something about just running from event to event, boss to boss, fighting, collecting XP and loot is really appealing to me.
ikcin said: But still I do not understand how that is entertaining. It is like working on assembly line. Hour after hour doing the same move.
Psychologically probably you feel relaxed because you win over and over again, and there is no real danger. Or the simple repetition, like the mantras of the buddhist monks, makes you feel calm. But in general it seems to me like a terribly boring thing. Well, I admit running to NPCs for pointless text dialogs is even more boring.
Yes, it is like this. I guess it could be like playing solitaire, knitting, putting together a plastic model, painting your Warhammer figures, chanting. It can be relaxing and I don't really think of it as "entertainment" though it could be. I don't like to grind all the time. But sometimes I just want to do it for an hour or two.
If I want a challenge (sometimes I do) I know where to find it. I can play a pvp game or some other game that requires focus and concentration. Sometimes I'm in the mood for that.
I don't need any danger any more. I used to find it interesting, but as I've gotten older, I've tended to be less interested in getting the adrenaline pumping.
I once noticed when playing L2 how the sound of the game was very relaxing and repetitive which I guess could put someone in a deep state of something if he did it long enough.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
OK, let say there is a game without grind. I know it is hard to imagine, but in fact with the modern cloud technologies it is completely possible. Would you play such a game - where the quests and the mobs are... well, not unique exactly, but not repetitive for sure.
Well, "engaging is engaging".
So replacing grinding mobs with quests and different types of mob encounters is just swapping out one type of "engaging" content for another.
Personally the quests would have to be "real quests". There are very few of these in these games as they are mostly "jobs" or busy work.
Running some place to collect 4 of something or kill 3 of something is not really a quest.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
OK, as obviously here are many people who understand it, I have a question - how repetitive killing of one mob over and over again for hours could be fun?
The same way some people find bullet hell shooters relaxing; it can be a form of meditation.
I enjoy grinding in Vendetta Online.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Grind has two parts: repetitive and monotonous. Repetition can be reduced (sort of) by not rliminated because we are still interfacing with the game the same way. After awhile that gets very repetitive. Monotonous is subjective and within the individuals control.
So does any game now have grind and is it possible for a game not to have it on the future. I guess that depends on you.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
OK, let say there is a game without grind. I know it is hard to imagine, but in fact with the modern cloud technologies it is completely possible. Would you play such a game - where the quests and the mobs are... well, not unique exactly, but not repetitive for sure.
Well, "engaging is engaging".
So replacing grinding mobs with quests and different types of mob encounters is just swapping out one type of "engaging" content for another.
Personally the quests would have to be "real quests". There are very few of these in these games as they are mostly "jobs" or busy work.
Running some place to collect 4 of something or kill 3 of something is not really a quest.
It seems you even cannot imagine a game without grind. I'm curious is the grind a customers demand or a marketing policy - it is easier and cheaper for the developers for sure. Let say there is a game where the repetitive actions are significantly reduced. After you slay a mob, you cannot slay it again. After you make a quest, it is done. No dailies, everything is adaptive, everything is changing, you really affect the world with your decisions and actions, and also the other players. The risk is much higher as every experience is unique. So would you prefer such a game or the games that exist now, with a lot of grind.
No, it's you who can't imagine that "grinding" can be enjoyable.
A game without grind? Well that's subjective isn't it? I would never say an Elder Scrolls single player game has grind. But I've seen players report that they "grind" in order to make their skills better (which I think is ridiculous but "whatever").
Truth is, it bothers you and it bothers you that people enjoy it. you are not willing to take people's explanations at face value as it doesn't fit into your gaming world view.
Replace the word "grind" with "enjoyable fun pastime". Non-stop fighting of mobs is an apt description.
I've seen people call World of Warcraft a grinding. Grinding quests, grinding end game instances.
Is Doom a grind? You are essentially fighting a narrow range of mobs over and over again. I wouldn't say it was.
Any repetition of content might be considered "unwanted grind" by a player if they don't enjoy it.
Post edited by Sovrath on
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
SURPRISE! To no one that reads my posts! CoH was my all time favorite grinding game. I could go for hours. I'd invite random new players to a team and help them get 7-8 levels in a half hour.
Some of my favorite stories are from grinding in CoH.
I took my invul tanker into Perez Park, pulled 110 bad guys (the maximum possible) and then called newbs to take em out. Taunt cast an unbreakable agro at the time, and since I was 20 levels above the bad guys they never broke away. As they swung helplessly at me (defense and damage resistance all at 90%, and the rare time I was hit it was only 2-3 points) I laughed and laughed as the newbs leveled like popcorn on the stove.
I was using my Fire/Energy melee tank in a mission helping some friends level. I had to be careful though, my big hitter power drew health when I used it, per enemy hit. Not a huge deal for a single target strike, but at that time it was bugged and struck with a narrow cone. I gathered about 70 +2 Freakshow and got em stuck behind a dumpster, and that target was so damn tempting... So I used Energy Transfer, and killed like 55 of them in one hit! I died too, of course, What was funny was that when I rezzed, I had no XP debt! The health is taken, you die, and then you swing. So all of that XP debt was also eliminated in one blow!
I laughed so hard that I had to do it again! And I did!
I loved that tale but I recall people saying avoid PP calls for good and fast experience as people would summon you into hordes of mobs and left you to die it was a common douchebag move then.
What fun in grinding is watching your toon fighting mobs with special skills
Thats why i love GW2 combat. Compared to archeage, u need to spam and continuously press 1 to trigger special attack, while gw2 all the things special attack was auto attack. GW2 has 3 different normal attack animation.
This is where MMORPG is different with other fps game. FPS required you actually to do everything, while mmorpg depends on your toon, you just tell them who to kill. It is relaxing just to watch your toon do cool animations.
If u play ragnarok online, with assassin class, u need to spam sonic blow skills to kill mobs faster, it is depends on your mana (sp). I hope future dev can assign auto attack on special skills too, so after cast delay, it will auto trigger (depends on mana)
OK, let say there is a game without grind. I know it is hard to imagine, but in fact with the modern cloud technologies it is completely possible. Would you play such a game - where the quests and the mobs are... well, not unique exactly, but not repetitive for sure.
Well, "engaging is engaging".
So replacing grinding mobs with quests and different types of mob encounters is just swapping out one type of "engaging" content for another.
Personally the quests would have to be "real quests". There are very few of these in these games as they are mostly "jobs" or busy work.
Running some place to collect 4 of something or kill 3 of something is not really a quest.
It seems you even cannot imagine a game without grind. I'm curious is the grind a customers demand or a marketing policy - it is easier and cheaper for the developers for sure. Let say there is a game where the repetitive actions are significantly reduced. After you slay a mob, you cannot slay it again. After you make a quest, it is done. No dailies, everything is adaptive, everything is changing, you really affect the world with your decisions and actions, and also the other players. The risk is much higher as every experience is unique. So would you prefer such a game or the games that exist now, with a lot of grind.
No, it's you who can't imagine that "grinding" can be enjoyable.
A game without grind? Well that's subjective isn't it? I would never say an Elder Scrolls single player game has grind. But I've seen players report that they "grind" in order to make their skills better (which I think is ridiculous but "whatever").
Truth is, it bothers you and it bothers you that people enjoy it. you are not willing to take people's explanations at face value as it doesn't fit into your gaming world view.
Replace the word "grind" with "enjoyable fun pastime". Non-stop fighting of mobs is an apt description.
I've seen people call World of Warcraft a grinding. Grinding quests, grinding end game instances.
Is Doom a grind? You are essentially fighting a narrow range of mobs over and over again. I wouldn't say it was.
Any repetition of content might be considered "unwanted grind" by a player if they don't enjoy it.
First, I understand how it could be enjoyable. As every player I did some grind, and in few cases like some instances in L2 I even enjoyed it. Well they were challenging places like the monastery, so I have to admit I'm not a grind man. But the grind is a standard in the most games. And I'm curious why? Because of the players or because of the industry.
Second you simply avoid the question. I'm asking what you will prefer, a game with or without repetitive actions? You answer I have to enjoy the grind. So I do not understand do you deny a game without grind is possible, or you insist the games with grind are better?
I didn't avoid the question I answered it. There is no preference for repetitive or non-repetitive actions.
Though, s I've already said ALL GAMES HAVE SOME REPETITION. Doom has repetition, Dragon Age has repetition of quests/dialogue choices, etc.
It's just different activities. To put it in better perspective, Lord of the Rings Online is a quest game but I find I forgo most quests, find myself a good orc barracks, fort, whatever and slaughter all. But then, I attribute a small backstory/reason to do this stuff.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I think that there has to be something beyond the actual combat mechanics for me to enjoy grinding. A goal like LotRO's deeds is my current favorite. And the enjoyment varies wildly, heavily dependent on level and opponents. I might have enjoyed farming bandit sashes in EQ1 (in 2002), but I try to find new ways to level characters when I start another alt. Generally, if the RNG is involved (loot, mats, etc.), I find it less satisfactory than a simple quest / deed (kill x).
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
I liked GW2 for its open map entertainment...really enjoyed just clearing content and enjoying the scenery...however GW2 quickly becomes shallow...your just doing stuff to do stuff and eventually that stuff gets stale.
FFXIV was fantastic but i got tired of the "stare at your hotbars" combat...game could have been a blank screen with stick figures i wouldn't know...especially for raids.
For grinding i go for a game genre where grinding is the name of the game and its totally centered around it, ARPG games like D3 or POE. You just want to farm for good gear right? so why not do it in a game designed specifically for that? They do it best tbh.
Also warhammer vermintide was a really fun melee based co-op game with RNG gear hunting...if thats your thing.
i dont think any mmorpg does farming/grinding well...no one makes their game difficult to level up in anymore, gear is handed to you for showing up....mmorpgs have all but removed character building....your just there for scenery and difficult raid content tbh...even the pvp...it doesnt matter and is shallow..though fun as a mini game.
I didn't avoid the question I answered it. There is no preference for repetitive or non-repetitive actions.
Though, s I've already said ALL GAMES HAVE SOME REPETITION. Doom has repetition, Dragon Age has repetition of quests/dialogue choices, etc.
It's just different activities. To put it in better perspective, Lord of the Rings Online is a quest game but I find I forgo most quests, find myself a good orc barracks, fort, whatever and slaughter all. But then, I attribute a small backstory/reason to do this stuff.
So you just deny a game without grind is possible, because you never played such. To put that in different perspective - let say, such a game is actually possible, will you play it or stay with the old games.
Well, as I've said, grind is in the eye of the beholder. So if you think it's a grind "its' a grind". If you enjoy what you are doing "it's not a grind.
And again, (and I don't know why this is hard but I suspect ...) I would play any game I thought good.
So let's for argument's sake say a game was possible without repetitive content (now you need to show what you mean because I could play devil's advocate and say that anything has repetition, repetition of quests, combat, etc) If it was good, I'd play it. and then I'd also go back to the old games as well and I'd go from one to the other because I would find them all fun.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
I didn't avoid the question I answered it. There is no preference for repetitive or non-repetitive actions.
Though, s I've already said ALL GAMES HAVE SOME REPETITION. Doom has repetition, Dragon Age has repetition of quests/dialogue choices, etc.
It's just different activities. To put it in better perspective, Lord of the Rings Online is a quest game but I find I forgo most quests, find myself a good orc barracks, fort, whatever and slaughter all. But then, I attribute a small backstory/reason to do this stuff.
So you just deny a game without grind is possible, because you never played such. To put that in different perspective - let say, such a game is actually possible, will you play it or stay with the old games.
Well, as I've said, grind is in the eye of the beholder. So if you think it's a grind "its' a grind". If you enjoy what you are doing "it's not a grind.
And again, (and I don't know why this is hard but I suspect ...) I would play any game I thought good.
So let's for argument's sake say a game was possible without repetitive content (now you need to show what you mean because I could play devil's advocate and say that anything has repetition, repetition of quests, combat, etc) If it was good, I'd play it. and then I'd also go back to the old games as well and I'd go from one to the other because I would find them all fun.
Let also assume your time is limited, so you have to choose I agree the grind cannot be removed entirely, but it could be significantly reduced with the modern technologies.
Wow. you're really looking for an answer where there is no answer to fit your box. Ok fine, the grind game.
That's not true as you could easily be asking whether I play an fps game or a rpg game. But since you want an answer there it is.
In truth I do have limited time and Black Desert, a grind game is pretty much the only mmo I'm playing. Waiting to see what they do to Lord of the Rings.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
black desert is pretty good if you like grinding games... path of exile made by "grinding gear games" is not bad, but entirely different too.
warframe, good choice, wow, hmm, what else, dragon nest... umm, waiting for ashes of creation, checking out archeage right now.
The nice thing about archeage is that if you have a quest to kill x of something you can stay, up the count and get a bonus. To that end, if I remember correctly, you can kill less and just get less xp.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
Comments
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
In my game, I don't feel like reading quests, solving puzzles, doing group activities, etc. Grinding is perfect for an hour or two. It's even better if I can make some sort of progress on my character (gold, skills, reputation, whatever).
If I want a challenge (sometimes I do) I know where to find it. I can play a pvp game or some other game that requires focus and concentration. Sometimes I'm in the mood for that.
I don't need any danger any more. I used to find it interesting, but as I've gotten older, I've tended to be less interested in getting the adrenaline pumping.
"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey
So replacing grinding mobs with quests and different types of mob encounters is just swapping out one type of "engaging" content for another.
Personally the quests would have to be "real quests". There are very few of these in these games as they are mostly "jobs" or busy work.
Running some place to collect 4 of something or kill 3 of something is not really a quest.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I enjoy grinding in Vendetta Online.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
even losing i get money and i can troll chat enemy players
So does any game now have grind and is it possible for a game not to have it on the future. I guess that depends on you.
A game without grind? Well that's subjective isn't it? I would never say an Elder Scrolls single player game has grind. But I've seen players report that they "grind" in order to make their skills better (which I think is ridiculous but "whatever").
Truth is, it bothers you and it bothers you that people enjoy it. you are not willing to take people's explanations at face value as it doesn't fit into your gaming world view.
Replace the word "grind" with "enjoyable fun pastime". Non-stop fighting of mobs is an apt description.
I've seen people call World of Warcraft a grinding. Grinding quests, grinding end game instances.
Is Doom a grind? You are essentially fighting a narrow range of mobs over and over again. I wouldn't say it was.
Any repetition of content might be considered "unwanted grind" by a player if they don't enjoy it.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
EQ1, EQ2, SWG, SWTOR, GW, GW2 CoH, CoV, FFXI, WoW, CO, War,TSW and a slew of free trials and beta tests
Thats why i love GW2 combat. Compared to archeage, u need to spam and continuously press 1 to trigger special attack, while gw2 all the things special attack was auto attack. GW2 has 3 different normal attack animation.
This is where MMORPG is different with other fps game. FPS required you actually to do everything, while mmorpg depends on your toon, you just tell them who to kill. It is relaxing just to watch your toon do cool animations.
If u play ragnarok online, with assassin class, u need to spam sonic blow skills to kill mobs faster, it is depends on your mana (sp). I hope future dev can assign auto attack on special skills too, so after cast delay, it will auto trigger (depends on mana)
Though, s I've already said ALL GAMES HAVE SOME REPETITION. Doom has repetition, Dragon Age has repetition of quests/dialogue choices, etc.
It's just different activities. To put it in better perspective, Lord of the Rings Online is a quest game but I find I forgo most quests, find myself a good orc barracks, fort, whatever and slaughter all. But then, I attribute a small backstory/reason to do this stuff.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.
FFXIV was fantastic but i got tired of the "stare at your hotbars" combat...game could have been a blank screen with stick figures i wouldn't know...especially for raids.
For grinding i go for a game genre where grinding is the name of the game and its totally centered around it, ARPG games like D3 or POE. You just want to farm for good gear right? so why not do it in a game designed specifically for that? They do it best tbh.
Also warhammer vermintide was a really fun melee based co-op game with RNG gear hunting...if thats your thing.
i dont think any mmorpg does farming/grinding well...no one makes their game difficult to level up in anymore, gear is handed to you for showing up....mmorpgs have all but removed character building....your just there for scenery and difficult raid content tbh...even the pvp...it doesnt matter and is shallow..though fun as a mini game.
And again, (and I don't know why this is hard but I suspect ...) I would play any game I thought good.
So let's for argument's sake say a game was possible without repetitive content (now you need to show what you mean because I could play devil's advocate and say that anything has repetition, repetition of quests, combat, etc) If it was good, I'd play it. and then I'd also go back to the old games as well and I'd go from one to the other because I would find them all fun.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
That's not true as you could easily be asking whether I play an fps game or a rpg game. But since you want an answer there it is.
In truth I do have limited time and Black Desert, a grind game is pretty much the only mmo I'm playing. Waiting to see what they do to Lord of the Rings.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
warframe, good choice, wow, hmm, what else, dragon nest... umm, waiting for ashes of creation, checking out archeage right now.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo