Camelot Unchained - Sailing Against Time - MMORPG.com

SBFord · January 2017

Camelot Unchained - Sailing Against Time - MMORPG.com

I was in the midst of one of my now standard bullet point breakdown columns when I hit a wall of sorts. Not a bad wall or a good wall but a curious wall. One that sent me down a path of many questions. I’ve called time the ultimate ganker. When does it start to impact the designs of Camelot Unchained and does that lead to a crowd funded trademark soft launch? All indicators say they are staying the course but at what point has enough time passed to force a shifting of the sails?

Read the full story here

meddyck · January 2017

I don't expect this game to have a soft launch. There may be months towards the end of beta when most systems are complete and server(s) are up 24/7 to give CSE the chance to fine tune everything to ensure it is polished and fun before launch. But there will still be a hard launch before which everything will be wiped and only after which will CSE start requiring monthly subscriptions be paid.

I think longer development time raises the expectations bar for how good the game needs to be at launch. Backers would have accepted a game that was a bit dated graphically in exchange for good performance in large fights and maybe wasn't innovative and awesome in every mechanic that launched after 2 1/2 years. They will expect something much greater for a game that takes say 4 to 5 years to develop. That's true even though there may be good reasons such as hiring difficulties for the longer development time.

JamesGoblin · January 2017

Speaking of time (which is, oh by the way, money), I wonder when (if?) will CSE reach for more investors? I'm afraid we won't hear anything concrete about that anytime soon.

MarkJacobs · January 2017

meddyck said:

I don't expect this game to have a soft launch. There may be months towards the end of beta when most systems are complete and server(s) are up 24/7 to give CSE the chance to fine tune everything to ensure it is polished and fun before launch. But there will still be a hard launch before which everything will be wiped and only after which will CSE start requiring monthly subscriptions be paid.

I think longer development time raises the expectations bar for how good the game needs to be at launch. Backers would have accepted a game that was a bit dated graphically in exchange for good performance in large fights and maybe wasn't innovative and awesome in every mechanic that launched after 2 1/2 years. They will expect something much greater for a game that takes say 4 to 5 years to develop. That's true even though there may be good reasons such as hiring difficulties for the longer development time.

Correct. We have no plans for a soft launch, MVP, etc. We owe our Backers more than that.

JamesGoblin said:

Speaking of time (which is, oh by the way, money), I wonder when (if?) will CSE reach for more investors? I'm afraid we won't hear anything concrete about that anytime soon.

Why afraid James? If anything, it should give you more confidence in the project that we are not putting an emphasis on getting new Backers or investors but rather, we just keep working on the game. We've been very clear that we are not looking to further monetize our Backers, beyond their tier donations, by constantly selling our equivalent of ships, telethons, etc. We could, it would be oh so easy to do that, but that's not the way we do things.

Tim and MMORPG,

Thanks as always for the column/coverage!

Shaigh · January 2017

Poor game at release is a better ganker than time.

Time is a problem for games that got big during early access and just never get finished but that's not the case for Camelot Unchained and Crowfall, its just the biggest fans that entered the game already. The rest just hope that the game is good at release.

We have had quite a lot of korean mmorpg that were hyped for quite a long time before they entered the west and how well they performed at release depended on how people enjoyed the game and not the time people had waited to play it.

I don't think the first game flopping or being a success will have that huge impact on other games, its far more important that each individual game has solid gameplay at release.

Wizardry · January 2017

I noticed a word i used to see a lot and have completely laughed at of late because i know how gamer's play these mmorpg's but i am still very curious.
That word is FUN...so truly curious here because i still yet to understand the attraction to this game,what will be this game's FUN factor that i or anyone else can't get in the already multitude of games out there?

I get this real feeling watching game supporters that it is alot like music,sometimes people support music groups or types just to be different,also just like people dying their hair or wearing earrings where they don't belong,people just need to feel umm what's the term like a rebel or just to be different than the rest of the crowd.
Me i am just that plain ol Joe err Bob looking for a quality and yet yikes "FUN"game to play.To me Fun is in the systems,does a game offer me something unique and different so that i can THINK a bit,manage my resources and perhaps utilize team work in combat.I also at this point MUST have no hand holding markers of any kind,so to make it simple,a fully immersive game,nothing that just looks like computer code tossed into a generated world.

WellzyC · January 2017

There should honestly be no complaining about time.. period.

Everyone gets upset when companies churn out buggy and incomplete games - Sell you an alpha or beta - monetize you with a cash shop - investors/publishers forcing devs to appeal to the masses for sales.

CSE is doing none of the above. This is something we all need to support, not whine about.

Riannes · January 2017

Hello MJ,

im a my inn my way tier backer. I'd believe the release date isn't set but realistically when can we expect that? This year or next year or after? Not pressuring just want to manage my expectation.

thanks & Regards,

MarkJacobs · January 2017

Shaigh said:

Poor game at release is a better ganker than time.

Time is a problem for games that got big during early access and just never get finished but that's not the case for Camelot Unchained and Crowfall, its just the biggest fans that entered the game already. The rest just hope that the game is good at release.

We have had quite a lot of korean mmorpg that were hyped for quite a long time before they entered the west and how well they performed at release depended on how people enjoyed the game and not the time people had waited to play it.

I don't think the first game flopping or being a success will have that huge impact on other games, its far more important that each individual game has solid gameplay at release.

Agreed. I don't expect of these games, including Camelot Unchained, to be the modern equivalent of WoW, a game that literally "took the air out of the market" for other games.I think that there is plenty of room for all of us to be successful as long as expectations are managed, as ours have been since even before the Kickstarter.

Wizardry said:

I noticed a word i used to see a lot and have completely laughed at of late because i know how gamer's play these mmorpg's but i am still very curious.
That word is FUN...so truly curious here because i still yet to understand the attraction to this game,what will be this game's FUN factor that i or anyone else can't get in the already multitude of games out there?

I get this real feeling watching game supporters that it is alot like music,sometimes people support music groups or types just to be different,also just like people dying their hair or wearing earrings where they don't belong,people just need to feel umm what's the term like a rebel or just to be different than the rest of the crowd.
Me i am just that plain ol Joe err Bob looking for a quality and yet yikes "FUN"game to play.To me Fun is in the systems,does a game offer me something unique and different so that i can THINK a bit,manage my resources and perhaps utilize team work in combat.I also at this point MUST have no hand holding markers of any kind,so to make it simple,a fully immersive game,nothing that just looks like computer code tossed into a generated world.

Agreed.

WellzyC said:

There should honestly be no complaining about time.. period.

Everyone gets upset when companies churn out buggy and incomplete games - Sell you an alpha or beta - monetize you with a cash shop - investors/publishers forcing devs to appeal to the masses for sales.

CSE is doing none of the above. This is something we all need to support, not whine about.

I don't mind people complaining, but when I get refund requests and people cite the delays, I would love to ask them if they have ever complained about games being rushed out. I don't, I just pay the refund. Now, if we were in year 5 and had nothing to show, that would be an entirely different situation. In our case, we've kept our Backers up to date on everything that has been going on at the studio (within the bounds of HR as I always say), and most of them can see the progress we are making.

Now, do I wish that we got a few extra kudos/support from our Backers because we have, and will continue, to do the right thing in terms of not treating Backers as walking wallets? I would always love more, not for ego but to help reassure the nervous folks. I do think we are getting a ton of silent support from our Backers who have been patiently waiting for this game. That alone makes me/us very happy. And as we've shown since we've come back from the holidays, it is being rewarded.

Riannes said:

Hello MJ,

im a my inn my way tier backer. I'd believe the release date isn't set but realistically when can expect that? This year or next year or after? Not pressuring just want to manage my expectation.

thanks & Regards,

The release date is based on how Beta does and how many additional programmers we can add to the team and when they are added. We're in the process of a lot of interviews this week, and I'd love to add at least a couple more senior programmers (here or in Seattle) and a couple of juniors as well. I'll be able to give you, and all of our Backers, an estimated once we are strongly in Beta 1 and seeing how our key systems are performing under stress.

Thanks for buying that tier, it will be a real fun one. I'm really looking forward to seeing where we can go with it.

All,

I'll be lurking around here during the day so if you have more questions, just post them and I'll get to them as time/schedule permits.

Thanks!

Mark

JamesGoblin · January 2017

TimEisen said:

JamesGoblin said:

Speaking of time (which is, oh by the way, money), I wonder when (if?) will CSE reach for more investors? I'm afraid we won't hear anything concrete about that anytime soon.

Investors or backers? Its starting to be hard to know the difference...and if you mean investors do you mean like via IndieGoGo or like a big company?

Big 'uns

MarkJacobs said:

JamesGoblin said:

Speaking of time (which is, oh by the way, money), I wonder when (if?) will CSE reach for more investors? I'm afraid we won't hear anything concrete about that anytime soon.

Why afraid James? If anything, it should give you more confidence in the project that we are not putting an emphasis on getting new Backers or investors but rather, we just keep working on the game. We've been very clear that we are not looking to further monetize our Backers, beyond their tier donations, by constantly selling our equivalent of ships, telethons, etc. We could, it would be oh so easy to do that, but that's not the way we do things.

Tim and MMORPG,

Thanks as always for the column/coverage!

I have in mind a guy or two (anyway, some relatively small number) that would add millions to the budget. I don't know how exactly it looks on CSE side of things i.e. what are the reasons for delaying/avoiding, and I'd be very happy to learn about details.

Of course, I can understand if you don't want to commit too early or reveal too much at this point...still, I'm curious and yes - worried is the word. To describe it in random numbers, difference between $10M and $15M game is not small.

cameltosis · January 2017

Wizardry said:

I noticed a word i used to see a lot and have completely laughed at of late because i know how gamer's play these mmorpg's but i am still very curious.
That word is FUN...so truly curious here because i still yet to understand the attraction to this game,what will be this game's FUN factor that i or anyone else can't get in the already multitude of games out there?

I get this real feeling watching game supporters that it is alot like music,sometimes people support music groups or types just to be different,also just like people dying their hair or wearing earrings where they don't belong,people just need to feel umm what's the term like a rebel or just to be different than the rest of the crowd.
Me i am just that plain ol Joe err Bob looking for a quality and yet yikes "FUN"game to play.To me Fun is in the systems,does a game offer me something unique and different so that i can THINK a bit,manage my resources and perhaps utilize team work in combat.I also at this point MUST have no hand holding markers of any kind,so to make it simple,a fully immersive game,nothing that just looks like computer code tossed into a generated world.

From everything I've seen and read about this game, the fun comes from two main sources:

1) RvRvR (i.e. combat)

It's a PvP game, focused on 3 realms fighting over territory. So, you'll be spending a lot of time teaming up with friends / randoms and fighting other people. Now, of course there are a lot of MMOs with PvP, some even have 3 way territory control (DAoC, ESO), so I'll try to go into what sets this apart and why I think it'll be fun:

Tab-targeting - CU is going against the modern trends and keeping traditional tab-targetting in place. With all the action combat MMOs out at the moment, this immediately sets it apart and personally I'll find it way more fun
Asymmetrical classes - the classes aren't mirrored between the three realms, plus there are loads of them. This makes it good for replayability as each class in each realm should play very differently to one another.
Horizontal Progression - CU is aiming to remove power gaps by having horizontal gear and skill progression. This is very rare, but should mean that you can contribute and enjoy yourself right from the start, rather than having to get thrashed for months whilst you rank up.
Ability Builder - when you rank up, you don't just unlock new skills like a standard MMO, you unlock skill components. You then "make" new skills. So, one melee DPS might combine components to make a really strong single target attack with a bleed effect, whilst a different melee dps might combine components to make a weak AoE attack that slows people. (I may have got the ability builder a bit wrong, but it's along these lines).
Territory Control - in most PvP games, you attack fixed objectives and when you click on a flag or kill a boss, it becomes yours. But, nothing really changes, you just own it. In CU, a lot of buildings are destructible and the community can design and build new ones. In addition, when you capture a zone, the whole zone is floating and floats over to connect with the rest of your realm. This means a constantly changing landscape to fight over.
Massively Multiplayer - its sad to say, but most MMOs aren't designed to be massively multiplayer. CU is. It's designed to support battles with 1000+ players on the screen. Most MMOs die when you reach 50 players, let alone 1000.

CU will therefore have a very complex and deep meta game, combined with a deep combat system that focuses on player skill over gear. Such a game doesn't exist on the market, certainly not at the scale CU is aiming for.

2) Crafting (i.e. C.U.B.E)

I've not really looked at regular crafting, only at CUBE. CUBE is essentially a CAD program that allows you to design new buildings and structures. You use preset items to design your structure, but it is pretty freeform. You then save your design as a blueprint which is then available ingame. You can then go out into the world and build that structure.

So, as an individual, you might design a small house in CUBE and then go find some quiet corner to build it. Later, you decide you want an outbuilding so you design it and build it next to your house. You might join a large guild and have the main crafter design an epic fortress, then team up to build it over a week or two near the frontier.

Then, as the realm war shifts territories, those buildings become usable. The other realm might lay siege to your fortress, resulting in some epic keep battles with the walls being torn down, holes knocked through etc. 2 weeks later, the other realm has captured your zone and built their own forts for you to fight over.

If you're a pure crafter, you might build yourself a trading centre away from the frontiers. Other traders setup shop in the same place and all of a sudden you've got a vibrant player-made village where your realm comes to do business.

If you're not a crafter at all, no worries - just grab yourself some siege equipment and go and knock down other people's creations!

I'm sure there are plenty of other unique features that are fun, but these are the two reasons I'm joining.

Kyleran · January 2017

Hi Mark, I am one of your Kickstarter backers, (alpha access) who quietly sits in the background cheering you on.

But truthfully, I've never logged in and rarely read any of the communications you send us.

Thing is all of that just touts the 'stuff' you've done, which I have little interest in.

MMORPGs are the sum of their parts, and not until I have access to experience most of the gameplay will I have much to say.

Until you can provide dates for late betas and launch I'll just stay in the background.

Know that you have the full support of my friends and I who all partially lay the "blame" for our recent return to a new DAOC shard on the fact CU hasn't launched yet.

Thanks for keeping us updated here, its really my only gaming news source.

Iselin · January 2017

A couple of things that set this project apart from most others, IMO, is the inherent honesty in the no questions asked refund policy and the total focus on the game and gaming systems without spending a lot of time and resources in monetization schemes.

Looking forward to playing this when it's ready. And this one I have no doubts about it eventually being ready. Keep up the great work, Mark.

Shadanwolf · January 2017

MARK......as you know....you only get one shot at the brass ring....and you dam well want to give yourself the highest possible chance to get it. I think the decisions you have been making on the games development have been right on. YOU HAVE A REAL WINNER IN YOUR HANDS(more than you may know). My advice is keep doing what you are doing...even though people like myself wish things were further along.

Riannes · January 2017

The release date is based on how Beta does and how many additional programmers we can add to the team and when they are added. We're in the process of a lot of interviews this week, and I'd love to add at least a couple more senior programmers (here or in Seattle) and a couple of juniors as well. I'll be able to give you, and all of our Backers, an estimated once we are strongly in Beta 1 and seeing how our key systems are performing under stress.

when are you aiming for Beta1?

can you pls give us a brief summary (you might have done this in email etc but heres the larger audience) of the progress that has been made. how far along are each of the features?

Thanks MJ.

Techfall · January 2017

Hi MJ,

The only other current "niche" pvp-centric "mmorpg" style games of recent release can think of are GW1/GW2, both of which are B2P. On top of that very few games today are subscription based other than WoW, the article even references cash shops and mobile gaming, both of which are prevalent in 2017. You are on record saying you would rather shut down the game than go from subscription model to Buy to play (B2P) like GW2, do you still feel that way in the changing market of gaming that is now dominated by B2P/F2P MOBAs, FPS and mobile games? Do you have a target number of subscribers you would like to see after say 6 months of release which is the usual make/break time period for MMOs

In addition to that being a "niche" game means small staff. In a PvP-centric game where balance between realms is basically required to have a fun game, how do you plan on churning out quick balance hot fixes? I remember DAoC days where classes like Thane were left in the dust for years and various bugs/balance issues allowed for certain realms to dominate for long periods of time. In today's day of gaming if people are not having fun they have little patience to wait around, how do you plan to address this?

This also brings me to population/realm balance. Population balance seemed pretty good in DAoC, however that game was very small population and pre-WoW. Should you get a major influx of subscribers early on in the game how do you plan to deal with population/realm balance? Will you be locking realms/servers on release? If so how will you deal with friends guilds who get split and can't join a certain realm? How will you deal with streamers/social media guilds who bring 1,000 people to one realm, etc. GW2 had many similar "balance" theories like bolstering lower population realm, rewards for being underdog, etc. none of those ideas actually worked though because people quickly became hopeless due to lack of quick fixes and underwhelming bonuses.

Lastly 8v8 "elite" roaming groups were almost a mini game in DAoC. Will CU offer a similar dynamic in its design where small elite group of players can defeat a zerg of casuals?

MMOExposed · January 2017

I dont trust MJ, but I am rooting for success here.

gervaise1 · January 2017

Techfall said:

<snip>You are on record saying you would rather shut down the game than go from subscription model to Buy to play (B2P) like GW2, <snip>

I though MJ was talking about "cash shops" when he said that and not about "B2P"?

That is how I recall it anyway and it fits in with the fact that CU has what is essentially a B2P option. OK its called a "lifetime subscription" and after 3 years you have to pay $1 a year (which goes to the crowdfunding site - again from memory). However for all intents and purposes CU has a B2P option.

Alomar · January 2017

One of my favorite mmo's out of the 38 I've played, AoC, never recovered from launching too early. MJ knows this all too well with Warhammer Online as well, blame EA. So, City State has my full backing to take as long as they need.

They can't be compared to their rivals in similar positions like Crowfall in terms of development time, because they took shortcuts in terms of not building an rvr dedicated engine like CU has.

nurso · January 2017

Riannes said:

can you pls give us a brief summary (you might have done this in email etc but heres the larger audience) of the progress that has been made. how far along are each of the features?

I doubt that here on mmorpg.com is the larger audience

AFAIK the technical backbone is done and only the finishing touches (aka optimisation and small bug-fixes) are missing. CSE is currently busy to hook their systems up, e.g. connect animations and sound, movement and skill-system, etc. When that's done, it's time for beta; my guess for a beta-date --> late April / early May.

Techfall said:

You are on record saying you would rather shut down the game than go from subscription model to Buy to play (B2P) like GW2, do you still feel that way in the changing market of gaming that is now dominated by B2P/F2P MOBAs, FPS and mobile games? Do you have a target number of subscribers you would like to see after say 6 months of release which is the usual make/break time period for MMOs

MJ said that they are happy with ~30k subscribers; 50k and above would be an awesome success.

We will release the compiled server code if we shut the game down.

Source: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/posts/455338?cursor=2769771

Q: Will Camelot Unchained be free-to-play? Subscription based?

We’ll definitely be using the subscription model. [...] Camelot Unchained isn’t for everyone. It’s for a specific audience that we’re going to give exactly what they want. It’s not something that venture capitalists are going to flock to. Kickstarter is going to let us know.

Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieltack/2013/04/08/mark-jacobs-talks-camelot-unchained-kickstarter/#c8bf0a95843b

Techfall · January 2017

nurso said:

Riannes said:

can you pls give us a brief summary (you might have done this in email etc but heres the larger audience) of the progress that has been made. how far along are each of the features?

I doubt that here on mmorpg.com is the larger audience
AFAIK the technical backbone is done and only the finishing touches (aka optimisation and small bug-fixes) are missing. CSE is currently busy to hook their systems up, e.g. connect animations and sound, movement and skill-system, etc. When that's done, it's time for beta; my guess for a beta-date --> late April / early May.

Techfall said:

You are on record saying you would rather shut down the game than go from subscription model to Buy to play (B2P) like GW2, do you still feel that way in the changing market of gaming that is now dominated by B2P/F2P MOBAs, FPS and mobile games? Do you have a target number of subscribers you would like to see after say 6 months of release which is the usual make/break time period for MMOs

MJ said that they are happy with ~30k subscribers; 50k and above would be an awesome success.

We will release the compiled server code if we shut the game down.

Source: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/13861848/camelot-unchained/posts/455338?cursor=2769771

Q: Will Camelot Unchained be free-to-play? Subscription based?

We’ll definitely be using the subscription model. [...] Camelot Unchained isn’t for everyone. It’s for a specific audience that we’re going to give exactly what they want. It’s not something that venture capitalists are going to flock to. Kickstarter is going to let us know.

Source: http://www.forbes.com/sites/danieltack/2013/04/08/mark-jacobs-talks-camelot-unchained-kickstarter/#c8bf0a95843b

Thanks I'm aware of those, they are quite old some from 2013, the market has changed significantly since then. Also their sub goals may change the longer the game is in development and the larger the staff gets

MarkJacobs · January 2017

Folks,

Sorry about not responding yesterday, I've been fighting that cold/flu/plague thing for the last two weeks and ended up going home right after lunch yesterday. I'll catch up now.

JamesGoblin said:

TimEisen said:

JamesGoblin said:

Speaking of time (which is, oh by the way, money), I wonder when (if?) will CSE reach for more investors? I'm afraid we won't hear anything concrete about that anytime soon.

Investors or backers? Its starting to be hard to know the difference...and if you mean investors do you mean like via IndieGoGo or like a big company?

Big 'uns

MarkJacobs said:

JamesGoblin said:

Speaking of time (which is, oh by the way, money), I wonder when (if?) will CSE reach for more investors? I'm afraid we won't hear anything concrete about that anytime soon.

Why afraid James? If anything, it should give you more confidence in the project that we are not putting an emphasis on getting new Backers or investors but rather, we just keep working on the game. We've been very clear that we are not looking to further monetize our Backers, beyond their tier donations, by constantly selling our equivalent of ships, telethons, etc. We could, it would be oh so easy to do that, but that's not the way we do things.

Tim and MMORPG,

Thanks as always for the column/coverage!

I have in mind a guy or two (anyway, some relatively small number) that would add millions to the budget. I don't know how exactly it looks on CSE side of things i.e. what are the reasons for delaying/avoiding, and I'd be very happy to learn about details.

Of course, I can understand if you don't want to commit too early or reveal too much at this point...still, I'm curious and yes - worried is the word. To describe it in random numbers, difference between $10M and $15M game is not small.

I could write a War and Peace sized response here, but I'll just skip to the TL;DR version. Yes, of course additional money would help the project because it would allow us to add more team members. OTOH, the longer we wait to ask for funding of any type (VC, crowd-funded, licensing team), the better terms we will get because we reduce the risk in investing/licensing. It's why I haven't made the rounds of any VC/partners yet unless I've been asked for/to visit. I expect that to change after we hit Beta 1.

Kyleran said:

Hi Mark, I am one of your Kickstarter backers, (alpha access) who quietly sits in the background cheering you on.

But truthfully, I've never logged in and rarely read any of the communications you send us.

Thing is all of that just touts the 'stuff' you've done, which I have little interest in.

MMORPGs are the sum of their parts, and not until I have access to experience most of the gameplay will I have much to say.

Until you can provide dates for late betas and launch I'll just stay in the background.

Know that you have the full support of my friends and I who all partially lay the "blame" for our recent return to a new DAOC shard on the fact CU hasn't launched yet.

Thanks for keeping us updated here, its really my only gaming news source.

Nothing wrong with staying in the background, it's easier on the furniture!

As to keeping folks like you updated here, Bill and the team at MMORPG have been great with asking for interviews, streaming, etc. I don't think you'll have to worry about that changing, for the worse, in the future.

Iselin said:

A couple of things that set this project apart from most others, IMO, is the inherent honesty in the no questions asked refund policy and the total focus on the game and gaming systems without spending a lot of time and resources in monetization schemes.

Looking forward to playing this when it's ready. And this one I have no doubts about it eventually being ready. Keep up the great work, Mark.

Thank you, much appreciated!

Shadanwolf said:

MARK......as you know....you only get one shot at the brass ring....and you dam well want to give yourself the highest possible chance to get it. I think the decisions you have been making on the games development have been right on. YOU HAVE A REAL WINNER IN YOUR HANDS(more than you may know). My advice is keep doing what you are doing...even though people like myself wish things were further along.

Thanks, we will. As anyone who has looked at our KS from day one till now can see, we haven't wavered in sticking to our Foundational Principles, we are keeping our Backers informed/active, and still offer full refunds. Yes, we have been wrong about our delivery dates (reasons, excuses, etc.), but because we are offering full refunds, I think that shows our commitment to doing things the right way for the Backers who were/are disappointed/upset/fuming mad at us. We'll continue doing things the right way now and for as long as I'm running CSE.

To be continued...

MarkJacobs · January 2017

TimEisen said:

Fun is subjective. For me it may differ by the day, hour, etc. Depends on what I'm in the mood for. Some times its PVP, others it just harvesting, others reading a form. /shrug

Yep, so true.

Torval said:

MarkJacobs said:

Correct. We have no plans for a soft launch, MVP, etc. We owe our Backers more than that.

....We've been very clear that we are not looking to further monetize our Backers, beyond their tier donations, by constantly selling our equivalent of ships, telethons, etc. We could, it would be oh so easy to do that, but that's not the way we do things.

I like how you sell it on your site right now. If anyone can join in for the advertised price with those perks then that seems like a great way to allow further revenue generation.

MVP and those other buzz type words are so subjective. What does that even mean? What is viable for one project may not be for another. Sometimes features get delayed past launch. At some point there is a minimum expected feature set that is complete and a "last wipe". Launch is when the celebration of those two intersect.

It's interesting to see how that all comes together. It's what used to make testing so much fun.

Agreed. FYI, we haven't changed our tiers since we put the Builders' Tiers up originally. As any of our Forum-goers can tell you, I've said no to adding new tiers/enticements/perks till we're in Beta 1. My oft-quoted line is "We haven't earned the right to do that until we get into Beta 1." We're far from perfect, but I/CSE can always say that we are doing things the way we want to be treated as Backers of other games.

Riannes said:

The release date is based on how Beta does and how many additional programmers we can add to the team and when they are added. We're in the process of a lot of interviews this week, and I'd love to add at least a couple more senior programmers (here or in Seattle) and a couple of juniors as well. I'll be able to give you, and all of our Backers, an estimated once we are strongly in Beta 1 and seeing how our key systems are performing under stress.

when are you aiming for Beta1?

can you pls give us a brief summary (you might have done this in email etc but heres the larger audience) of the progress that has been made. how far along are each of the features?

Thanks MJ.

To do that would take quite a long time, that's why we put out our User Stories and Beta 1 list of features. You can see from that Beta 1 checklist and Beta 1 Extended Check List- http://camelotunchained.com/v3/user-stories/
Now, having said that, the one thing that is lacking, and we did this on purpose, was not to have a % by each of the items. We are actually a lot closer than the list makes it seem (we need to update it), and once we get the new animation system and the improved VFX system up and running, we'll be ready to put a date for Beta 1. Because the animation system is a totally new system (we've been using the same system Andrew wrote years ago), we have to have that in and working before we can give a date. It's a huge code change and the system itself is pretty damn cool, and like some of the other systems we've done, will be core pieces of tech for Camelot Unchained and CSE going forward.

Techfall said:

Hi MJ,

The only other current "niche" pvp-centric "mmorpg" style games of recent release can think of are GW1/GW2, both of which are B2P. On top of that very few games today are subscription based other than WoW, the article even references cash shops and mobile gaming, both of which are prevalent in 2017. You are on record saying you would rather shut down the game than go from subscription model to Buy to play (B2P) like GW2, do you still feel that way in the changing market of gaming that is now dominated by B2P/F2P MOBAs, FPS and mobile games? Do you have a target number of subscribers you would like to see after say 6 months of release which is the usual make/break time period for MMOs

In addition to that being a "niche" game means small staff. In a PvP-centric game where balance between realms is basically required to have a fun game, how do you plan on churning out quick balance hot fixes? I remember DAoC days where classes like Thane were left in the dust for years and various bugs/balance issues allowed for certain realms to dominate for long periods of time. In today's day of gaming if people are not having fun they have little patience to wait around, how do you plan to address this?

This also brings me to population/realm balance. Population balance seemed pretty good in DAoC, however that game was very small population and pre-WoW. Should you get a major influx of subscribers early on in the game how do you plan to deal with population/realm balance? Will you be locking realms/servers on release? If so how will you deal with friends guilds who get split and can't join a certain realm? How will you deal with streamers/social media guilds who bring 1,000 people to one realm, etc. GW2 had many similar "balance" theories like bolstering lower population realm, rewards for being underdog, etc. none of those ideas actually worked though because people quickly became hopeless due to lack of quick fixes and underwhelming bonuses.

Lastly 8v8 "elite" roaming groups were almost a mini game in DAoC. Will CU offer a similar dynamic in its design where small elite group of players can defeat a zerg of casuals?

We've said, even before the KS, that if we have 50K subs we'll be fine. Considering that is 1/5 of what Dark Age had in 2002, I think that is a more than reasonable number. As to people's patience, well, one of the reasons I wanted so many people in Beta was so we could get things right for launch, and not push out something that really wasn't tested well. As to dealing with Realm imbalance, we've been talking about this either before the Kickstarter. Look to our info about how we are doing overnight rewards and lots of other things to deal with the problem. As to small group combat vs. zergs, we have said right from the beginning that a player's skill with their abilities (not bunny-hopping, no limited action bar, etc.) will be quite important in this game. Do I think a small group can beat a larger group, yep, I sure do. I believed in it in 1999, still do.

...to be continued

MarkJacobs · January 2017

MMOExposed said:

I dont trust MJ, but I am rooting for success here.

Thanks. I hope that the last three years of our KS haven't given you some hope though as we have resisted any attempt to suck additional money out of our Backers for our game. I'm not perfect, never have been, never will be, but we are doing things the right way. I do thank you, truly, for rooting for our success.

gervaise1 said:

Techfall said:

<snip>You are on record saying you would rather shut down the game than go from subscription model to Buy to play (B2P) like GW2, <snip>

I though MJ was talking about "cash shops" when he said that and not about "B2P"?

That is how I recall it anyway and it fits in with the fact that CU has what is essentially a B2P option. OK its called a "lifetime subscription" and after 3 years you have to pay $1 a year (which goes to the crowdfunding site - again from memory). However for all intents and purposes CU has a B2P option.

That's correct. You can look at it that way and you are 100% correct that I'm not a fan of cash shops, more so with a sub-based, Backer funded game. They won't appear in Camelot Unchained.

Alomar said:

One of my favorite mmo's out of the 38 I've played, AoC, never recovered from launching too early. MJ knows this all too well with Warhammer Online as well, blame EA. So, City State has my full backing to take as long as they need.

They can't be compared to their rivals in similar positions like Crowfall in terms of development time, because they took shortcuts in terms of not building an rvr dedicated engine like CU has.

Thanks, much appreciated! Building our own engine has been, as expected, challenging. OTOH, it has been paying off, especially lately as our Alpha/Beta 1 Backers saw this month, and so much more is coming over the next month too. It's going to be as interesting as heck with the new animation/improved VFX systems being integrated at the same time. The first pass of the animation system went in yesterday so...

Thanks again Tim, Bill, and MMORPG for the coverage and thanks to the folks who posted here as well.

CU!

gylnne · January 2017

cameltosis said:

Wizardry said:

I noticed a word i used to see a lot and have completely laughed at of late because i know how gamer's play these mmorpg's but i am still very curious.
That word is FUN...so truly curious here because i still yet to understand the attraction to this game,what will be this game's FUN factor that i or anyone else can't get in the already multitude of games out there?

I get this real feeling watching game supporters that it is alot like music,sometimes people support music groups or types just to be different,also just like people dying their hair or wearing earrings where they don't belong,people just need to feel umm what's the term like a rebel or just to be different than the rest of the crowd.
Me i am just that plain ol Joe err Bob looking for a quality and yet yikes "FUN"game to play.To me Fun is in the systems,does a game offer me something unique and different so that i can THINK a bit,manage my resources and perhaps utilize team work in combat.I also at this point MUST have no hand holding markers of any kind,so to make it simple,a fully immersive game,nothing that just looks like computer code tossed into a generated world.

From everything I've seen and read about this game, the fun comes from two main sources:

1) RvRvR (i.e. combat)

It's a PvP game, focused on 3 realms fighting over territory. So, you'll be spending a lot of time teaming up with friends / randoms and fighting other people. Now, of course there are a lot of MMOs with PvP, some even have 3 way territory control (DAoC, ESO), so I'll try to go into what sets this apart and why I think it'll be fun:
Tab-targeting - CU is going against the modern trends and keeping traditional tab-targetting in place. With all the action combat MMOs out at the moment, this immediately sets it apart and personally I'll find it way more fun
Asymmetrical classes - the classes aren't mirrored between the three realms, plus there are loads of them. This makes it good for replayability as each class in each realm should play very differently to one another.
Horizontal Progression - CU is aiming to remove power gaps by having horizontal gear and skill progression. This is very rare, but should mean that you can contribute and enjoy yourself right from the start, rather than having to get thrashed for months whilst you rank up.
Ability Builder - when you rank up, you don't just unlock new skills like a standard MMO, you unlock skill components. You then "make" new skills. So, one melee DPS might combine components to make a really strong single target attack with a bleed effect, whilst a different melee dps might combine components to make a weak AoE attack that slows people. (I may have got the ability builder a bit wrong, but it's along these lines).
Territory Control - in most PvP games, you attack fixed objectives and when you click on a flag or kill a boss, it becomes yours. But, nothing really changes, you just own it. In CU, a lot of buildings are destructible and the community can design and build new ones. In addition, when you capture a zone, the whole zone is floating and floats over to connect with the rest of your realm. This means a constantly changing landscape to fight over.
Massively Multiplayer - its sad to say, but most MMOs aren't designed to be massively multiplayer. CU is. It's designed to support battles with 1000+ players on the screen. Most MMOs die when you reach 50 players, let alone 1000.
CU will therefore have a very complex and deep meta game, combined with a deep combat system that focuses on player skill over gear. Such a game doesn't exist on the market, certainly not at the scale CU is aiming for.

2) Crafting (i.e. C.U.B.E)

I've not really looked at regular crafting, only at CUBE. CUBE is essentially a CAD program that allows you to design new buildings and structures. You use preset items to design your structure, but it is pretty freeform. You then save your design as a blueprint which is then available ingame. You can then go out into the world and build that structure.

So, as an individual, you might design a small house in CUBE and then go find some quiet corner to build it. Later, you decide you want an outbuilding so you design it and build it next to your house. You might join a large guild and have the main crafter design an epic fortress, then team up to build it over a week or two near the frontier.

Then, as the realm war shifts territories, those buildings become usable. The other realm might lay siege to your fortress, resulting in some epic keep battles with the walls being torn down, holes knocked through etc. 2 weeks later, the other realm has captured your zone and built their own forts for you to fight over.

If you're a pure crafter, you might build yourself a trading centre away from the frontiers. Other traders setup shop in the same place and all of a sudden you've got a vibrant player-made village where your realm comes to do business.

If you're not a crafter at all, no worries - just grab yourself some siege equipment and go and knock down other people's creations!

I'm sure there are plenty of other unique features that are fun, but these are the two reasons I'm joining.

Wonderful comment even as a backer you brought up things, especially about crafting, I never had thought of. Thank you.:)

JamesGoblin · January 2017

MarkJacobs said:

Folks,

Sorry about not responding yesterday, I've been fighting that cold/flu/plague thing for the last two weeks and ended up going home right after lunch yesterday. I'll catch up now.

JamesGoblin said:

TimEisen said:

JamesGoblin said:

Speaking of time (which is, oh by the way, money), I wonder when (if?) will CSE reach for more investors? I'm afraid we won't hear anything concrete about that anytime soon.

Investors or backers? Its starting to be hard to know the difference...and if you mean investors do you mean like via IndieGoGo or like a big company?

Big 'uns

MarkJacobs said:

JamesGoblin said:

Speaking of time (which is, oh by the way, money), I wonder when (if?) will CSE reach for more investors? I'm afraid we won't hear anything concrete about that anytime soon.

Why afraid James? If anything, it should give you more confidence in the project that we are not putting an emphasis on getting new Backers or investors but rather, we just keep working on the game. We've been very clear that we are not looking to further monetize our Backers, beyond their tier donations, by constantly selling our equivalent of ships, telethons, etc. We could, it would be oh so easy to do that, but that's not the way we do things.

Tim and MMORPG,

Thanks as always for the column/coverage!

I have in mind a guy or two (anyway, some relatively small number) that would add millions to the budget. I don't know how exactly it looks on CSE side of things i.e. what are the reasons for delaying/avoiding, and I'd be very happy to learn about details.

Of course, I can understand if you don't want to commit too early or reveal too much at this point...still, I'm curious and yes - worried is the word. To describe it in random numbers, difference between $10M and $15M game is not small.

I could write a War and Peace sized response here, but I'll just skip to the TL;DR version. Yes, of course additional money would help the project because it would allow us to add more team members. OTOH, the longer we wait to ask for funding of any type (VC, crowd-funded, licensing team), the better terms we will get because we reduce the risk in investing/licensing. It's why I haven't made the rounds of any VC/partners yet unless I've been asked for/to visit. I expect that to change after we hit Beta 1.

I, secretly, hoped for a War and Peace sized response, anyway if CSE starts negotiating sometime in beta (and these things can take time) and then, when contracts are signed, starts looking for more manpower to hire (which, as we know very well, also can take quite some time) etc. - how many moons will be left for these new folks to do any significant changes to the game? Or maybe CU only lives twice?

PS sorry for annoying you with this, and get well soon!

PPS speaking of CSE and plague, a fancy pic by Sandra (the whole studio is going through tough times):

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