But you guys do realize that, for ref, WoW in 2004 cost 65M and took almost 5 years to make.
And WoW just copied Everquest...they really didn't bring anything new to the MMO market, their game just reached unseen popularity.
So double the budget, 13 years later really still isn't all that much...especially when you consider they aren't just making another MMO the likes of which we've seen before. They are trying to make something the likes of which hasn't been done. As for production time: WoW took almost 5 years to make, SWTOR took about 5 years. We see games like Darkfall that take like 10....WoW just copied Everquest....SWTOR just coppied WoW....these games were not making all new systems...so SC hitting 5 years this year is perfectly acceptable. A game pushing the limits of what we've seen in MMO's taking 1 or 2 years longer than a copy/paste MMO doesn't seem all that bad to me.
I personally only own 1 cheapo $60 ship...so I am in no way very invested into this game....but am just trying to give you guys some references as to how long the average MMO takes to make and how much it costs to do what's already been done before vs pushing the boundaries.
And who cares if it's later than what was said. If I tell you I'm going to deliver your Lambo in April and it doesn't show up, sure you'll be disappointed, but when it comes in December are you going to pout and not accept it? Heck no! Much rather have my finished Lambo in December than just the frame in April :P.
Saying Wow copied EQ is ludicrous. If anything, Wow is the anti EQ. One thing to understand, today there are far better tools for making MMO's than there were previously. Why do you think that all these indies are making such with minimal staffs?
The problem with Chris Roberts, he is way beyond his depth in making games. He is making the exact same mistake that 38 studios did, too large a staff that is not being lead very well. Eventually the money will run out and there will be panic mode, the game still won't be finished and they will have to release it or fold. Either way it will not be good for all the investors.
Lastly you are completely using the word "haters" wrong. The word is critics. Big difference between the two. You should look it up, might learn a new word.
But you guys do realize that, for ref, WoW in 2004 cost 65M and took almost 5 years to make.
And WoW just copied Everquest...they really didn't bring anything new to the MMO market, their game just reached unseen popularity.
So double the budget, 13 years later really still isn't all that much...especially when you consider they aren't just making another MMO the likes of which we've seen before. They are trying to make something the likes of which hasn't been done. As for production time: WoW took almost 5 years to make, SWTOR took about 5 years. We see games like Darkfall that take like 10....WoW just copied Everquest....SWTOR just coppied WoW....these games were not making all new systems...so SC hitting 5 years this year is perfectly acceptable. A game pushing the limits of what we've seen in MMO's taking 1 or 2 years longer than a copy/paste MMO doesn't seem all that bad to me.
I personally only own 1 cheapo $60 ship...so I am in no way very invested into this game....but am just trying to give you guys some references as to how long the average MMO takes to make and how much it costs to do what's already been done before vs pushing the boundaries.
And who cares if it's later than what was said. If I tell you I'm going to deliver your Lambo in April and it doesn't show up, sure you'll be disappointed, but when it comes in December are you going to pout and not accept it? Heck no! Much rather have my finished Lambo in December than just the frame in April :P.
Saying Wow copied EQ is ludicrous. If anything, Wow is the anti EQ. One thing to understand, today there are far better tools for making MMO's than there were previously. Why do you think that all these indies are making such with minimal staffs?
The problem with Chris Roberts, he is way beyond his depth in making games. He is making the exact same mistake that 38 studios did, too large a staff that is not being lead very well. Eventually the money will run out and there will be panic mode, the game still won't be finished and they will have to release it or fold. Either way it will not be good for all the investors.
Lastly you are completely using the word "haters" wrong. The word is critics. Big difference between the two. You should look it up, might learn a new word.
Honestly, haters is the right word because critics actually make intelligent arguments. Even the biggest "critics" don't really have any intelligent arguments to make anymore. There are a few good arguments here and there, but nothing that people would actually like to discuss because the trainwreck threads that unintelligent arguments make are way more fun to participate in and present zero possibility of ever being resolved, meaning they can entertain indefinitely. So, yeah, I actually think that there is a distinct LACK of critics, which makes SC discussion a gong show.
Saying Wow copied EQ is ludicrous. If anything, Wow is the anti EQ. One thing to understand, today there are far better tools for making MMO's than there were previously. Why do you think that all these indies are making such with minimal staffs?
The problem with Chris Roberts, he is way beyond his depth in making games. He is making the exact same mistake that 38 studios did, too large a staff that is not being lead very well. Eventually the money will run out and there will be panic mode, the game still won't be finished and they will have to release it or fold. Either way it will not be good for all the investors.
Lastly you are completely using the word "haters" wrong. The word is critics. Big difference between the two. You should look it up, might learn a new word.
"Sony is taking credit for the existence of the hottest MMORPG around,
World of Warcraft, saying that had it not been for their
Everquest(EverQuest II), WoW would not have existed to wow the gaming
world as it does today. Lead designer Ryan Barker shares some choice
words on the matter.
"That's definitely true," he said when asked if he agreed with the contention that WoW would not have existed it EverQuest was not released."
*****
Comparing this crowdfunding game with what happened to "38 Studios" is complete and utter rubbish.
There are no default state loan payments and therefore no officially declared bankruptcy.
There are not even rumours about laying off CIGs entire staff.
Personally I believe if ever the money should run out, an appeal to the existing backers would generate the necessary additional funding. Not to mention that the usual ways to get money (investors, bank loans) could be used at any time.
Currently there ARE no investors beyond those that founded CIG (=Chris Roberts and Ortwin Freyermuth). There are backers of the crowdfunding campaign ... which are not investors. An important difference.
****
If you have spend any time on the SC subforum of this website, you should know that there are "haters" and there are "critics". Yes, there is a big difference between those two. But there are/were definitely some pathological haters here too ... and quite a few have been permabanned because they completely lost it here on this forum. And their alts (sometimes up to a half dozen or more) got permabanned too subsequently.
There are things that can be discussed critically ... delays, timetables, management style, PR policy, business model etc. .... operative word being "discussed". Vomiting forth a surge of conspiracy theories, ad hominem attacks and plain lies - as some of these "haters" do/did - is not something i would personally classify as "discussion".
Wut? Again, how many people can play in an instance?
Are you really coming with the instance population numbers argument to claim it's not one MMO? http://store.steampowered.com/app/359320/ < If that one is set as one, so is SC.
Are you really coming with the instance population numbers argument to claim it's not one MMO? http://store.steampowered.com/app/359320/ < If that one is set as one, so is SC.
Where did I imply anything of such sort? You talk about "technological colosus" therefore I ask how many people you get at one place at the same time. So how many?
I understand that tech non-savvy people are easy to impress but seriously....
Are you really coming with the instance population numbers argument to claim it's not one MMO? http://store.steampowered.com/app/359320/ < If that one is set as one, so is SC.
Where did I imply anything of such sort? You talk about "technological colosus" therefore I ask how many people you get at one place at the same time. So how many?
I understand that tech non-savvy people are easy to impress but seriously....
At one place at the same time ? In theory .. everyone who is online.
At one place at the same time in the same instance .... at the moment 24.
Number is expected to go up in the future. Personally I expect the 64 we see in other games.
You talk about "technological colosus" therefore I ask how many people you get at one place at the same time. So how many?
I understand that tech non-savvy people are easy to impress but seriously....
I guess you're just fulfilling your hating needs, but I'll bite:
The game being this colossus tech-wise is actually why they have to limit and contain instances, to simply have more complex stuff going on within them. While in one side you can push things in the other side, in terms of network there's no magical solutions. What MMO's usually do is they cut on stuff as physics, simulation, and fake/script as much as possible, makes it cheap as they try to make it believable.
On SC you have only the ships alone are of one high complexity and simulation, goes up to every module, procedural damage, the components, their health, stats, all the simulation that needs to happen there, outside and inside them. Over that they do have Capital ships that are enormous things that obviously take this simulation to a whole other level. Over that there's physics, the grids, their simulation, their transitions. Are examples of this.
So yes, a technological colossus to pull off within the online environment that is the MMO. Why is the instance population the reason it is not?
But it's not like you even do or want to consider this stuff before posting such (and will go with the classic "mark it as LOL", okay then)
Wut? Again, how many people can play in an instance?
Are you really coming with the instance population numbers argument to claim it's not one MMO? http://store.steampowered.com/app/359320/ < If that one is set as one, so is SC.
Elite: Dangerous is not an MMO.
There is a "Solo" play option right on the start screen, and it was originally promised with an offline mode. Anyone claiming it is an MMO is seriously abusing the term.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Phaserlight said: Anyone claiming it is an MMO is seriously abusing the term.
Frontier labeled it as one, it's on there (game categories). Even though Elite has a big lack of multiplayer interaction and do have options to play alone on the same game-world, it's still put as one. If even Ark Survival Evolved decided to brand itself one MMO, I struggle to find where the MMO terminology stands today.
What I do know is that in terms of SC; it is forcefully one online persistent game-world to all players, the options to play offline or private servers will not be there by release; that's what makes it so.
Phaserlight said: Anyone claiming it is an MMO is seriously abusing the term.
Frontier labeled it as one, it's on there (and it's not the user-made labels). Even though Elite has a big lack of multiplayer interaction, and also persistence, it's still claimed as one.
If even Ark Survival Evolved decided to brand itself one MMO, and that's the one I can barely understand why.
I don't care what Frontier calls it; that's not what the term means.
Some companies grab on to the handle of "MMO" as a way of marketing, but traditionally speaking, it normally implies that you have potentially hundreds of players directly interacting in the same digital space (to have at least the possibility of 500+ players in the same "space" by design was one yardstick by which this website used to deliniate 'MMO or no', or so I'm told).
Granted, the market has moved away from that type of design, and as such the term has become somewhat more nebulous.
That stated, I can't say E:D (or ASE) seem to have even the usual trappings of what goes for a MMO these days. Again... "Solo" right on the start screen.
Even Open World MMOs that allow you to avoid other players most of the time have at least the possibility of letting you run across another player at any given intersection. Game designs that give you the option to play "Solo" or to run your own private server literally guarantee that this will never happen, should you wish. That is an anti-MMO.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
I do agree with you. I just see how the terminology is being pushed; the players themselves call it "Singleplayer MMO".
Even a game that offers private servers can still be one MMO as long those servers host their own game-worlds, some do exist around where this happens; but playing within the same online gameworld offline/solo goes against the Multiplayer M of MMO.
Phaserlight said: (to have at least the possibility of 500+ players in the same "space" by design
You also can't push such numbers as what is one, MMO's like Guild Wars 2 would not be one MMO because no 500 players share the same space, not even close to that, they are spread within several instances, as many instances as necessary.
On the way technology, as the cloud developed, more and more approach the cloud setups as SC, it's the alternative that allows devs to make more complex online games where all players still persist on the same game-world.
Phaserlight said: (to have at least the possibility of 500+ players in the same "space" by design
You also can't push such numbers as what is one, MMO's like Guild Wars 2 would not be one MMO because no 500 players share the same space, not even close to that, they are spread within several instances, as many instances as necessary.
On the way technology, as the cloud developed, more and more approach the cloud setups as SC, it's the alternative that allows devs to make more complex online games where all players still persist on the same game-world.
Right. I'm using very broad layman's strokes here, but:
Old-hat was 'let us wreck the server before funneling us off into our own individual instances'.
WoW had a foot in both worlds, and now...
New-hat is 'it's all about individual player experiences'.
It's a spectrum, obviously, but I'm baffled as to how diluted the term "MMO" has become when there is such a convenient alternative handle close by: "CORPG".
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar Authored 139 missions in VendettaOnline and 6 tracks in Distance
Still no game even though the versions numbers are trying to make it look like the game has launched and is getting a big expansion.
The cash shop launched, and works perfect.
Want to really fry your biscuit? Ask yourself this, "Do you think that Star Citizen would have been nearly as successful without comments like this?"
In summary. Thanks for keeping these pointless, circular threads going.
Absolutely agree. People keeping the threads going with such "controversy". After all people will be totally fooled if they don't launch with version 1.0. They were with WoW after all .... I mean every game lauches at 1.0 doesn't it! Well done TalulaRose for promoting the game.
Still no game even though the versions numbers are trying to make it look like the game has launched and is getting a big expansion.
The cash shop launched, and works perfect.
Want to really fry your biscuit? Ask yourself this, "Do you think that Star Citizen would have been nearly as successful without comments like this?"
In summary. Thanks for keeping these pointless, circular threads going.
Absolutely agree. People keeping the threads going with such "controversy". After all people will be totally fooled if they don't launch with version 1.0. They were with WoW after all .... I mean every game lauches at 1.0 doesn't it! Well done TalulaRose for promoting the game.
That begs another great question, will they launch as 1.0? Mind...... Blown!!!
The same ppl laughing about a launch date are the same ppl that said it's just vaporware. FPS, dog fighting, playable missions, racing are all things you can do now. It's already more feature rich than MWO is.
Yet, somehow only SC is "technical colossus" because of that....
[mod edit]
It's not circular. SC is a technical colossus because it is doing on the tech front, simulation, physics, even graphics are being pushed as far they can go, what MMOs practically never pushes on.
Within what they can push, one of those things ain't network and that is where they are forced to contain it within instances. You nitpicked the network part to discredit everything else being done here.
The same ppl laughing about a launch date are the same ppl that said it's just vaporware. FPS, dog fighting, playable missions, racing are all things you can do now. It's already more feature rich than MWO is.
When did the game launch?
Or is this the "What do you mean launch date.......the game is live already. After all, this is version 3.0".
Least viable project......slowly it creeps in.
WoW is on version 7.1.0 SC is 3.0
You would think SC has been live for 4-5 years already.
The same ppl laughing about a launch date are the same ppl that said it's just vaporware. FPS, dog fighting, playable missions, racing are all things you can do now. It's already more feature rich than MWO is.
When did the game launch?
Or is this the "What do you mean launch date.......the game is live already. After all, this is version 3.0".
Least viable project......slowly it creeps in.
The game is still alpha and has more to do than a full game like Mech Warriors Online. When SC was first announced, everyone said it's vaporware and you're being duped. Now that game development has progressed, the attacks have changed to launch date. Again, SC right now in the alpha stage has more to do than some games that have launched and been out for years.
Azzras said: The game is still alpha and had more to do than a full game like Mech Warriors Online. When SC was first announced, everyone said it's may vape ware and you're being duped. Now that game development has progressed, the attacks have change to launch date. Again, SC right now in the alpha stage had more to do than some games that have launched and been out for years.
There is no SC. There are just some separate tech demos called modules that eventually might become an online game - so far RSI do not have money to make SC.
MWO is already heap more by the fact alone that it is an actual, released game. Besides, MWO is moba, silly comparison.
Comments
MAGA
The problem with Chris Roberts, he is way beyond his depth in making games. He is making the exact same mistake that 38 studios did, too large a staff that is not being lead very well. Eventually the money will run out and there will be panic mode, the game still won't be finished and they will have to release it or fold. Either way it will not be good for all the investors.
Lastly you are completely using the word "haters" wrong. The word is critics. Big difference between the two. You should look it up, might learn a new word.
Honestly, haters is the right word because critics actually make intelligent arguments. Even the biggest "critics" don't really have any intelligent arguments to make anymore. There are a few good arguments here and there, but nothing that people would actually like to discuss because the trainwreck threads that unintelligent arguments make are way more fun to participate in and present zero possibility of ever being resolved, meaning they can entertain indefinitely. So, yeah, I actually think that there is a distinct LACK of critics, which makes SC discussion a gong show.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
http://news.mmosite.com/content/2009-06-17/20090617050350084.shtml
"Sony is taking credit for the existence of the hottest MMORPG around, World of Warcraft, saying that had it not been for their Everquest(EverQuest II), WoW would not have existed to wow the gaming world as it does today. Lead designer Ryan Barker shares some choice words on the matter.
"That's definitely true," he said when asked if he agreed with the contention that WoW would not have existed it EverQuest was not released."
*****
Comparing this crowdfunding game with what happened to "38 Studios" is complete and utter rubbish.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/38_Studios
Star Citizen got no money from any US state.
There are no default state loan payments and therefore no officially declared bankruptcy.
There are not even rumours about laying off CIGs entire staff.
Personally I believe if ever the money should run out, an appeal to the existing backers would generate the necessary additional funding. Not to mention that the usual ways to get money (investors, bank loans) could be used at any time.
Currently there ARE no investors beyond those that founded CIG (=Chris Roberts and Ortwin Freyermuth). There are backers of the crowdfunding campaign ... which are not investors. An important difference.
****
If you have spend any time on the SC subforum of this website, you should know that there are "haters" and there are "critics". Yes, there is a big difference between those two. But there are/were definitely some pathological haters here too ... and quite a few have been permabanned because they completely lost it here on this forum. And their alts (sometimes up to a half dozen or more) got permabanned too subsequently.
There are things that can be discussed critically ... delays, timetables, management style, PR policy, business model etc. .... operative word being "discussed". Vomiting forth a surge of conspiracy theories, ad hominem attacks and plain lies - as some of these "haters" do/did - is not something i would personally classify as "discussion".
Have fun
I understand that tech non-savvy people are easy to impress but seriously....
At one place at the same time in the same instance .... at the moment 24.
Number is expected to go up in the future. Personally I expect the 64 we see in other games.
Have fun
The game being this colossus tech-wise is actually why they have to limit and contain instances, to simply have more complex stuff going on within them. While in one side you can push things in the other side, in terms of network there's no magical solutions. What MMO's usually do is they cut on stuff as physics, simulation, and fake/script as much as possible, makes it cheap as they try to make it believable.
On SC you have only the ships alone are of one high complexity and simulation, goes up to every module, procedural damage, the components, their health, stats, all the simulation that needs to happen there, outside and inside them. Over that they do have Capital ships that are enormous things that obviously take this simulation to a whole other level. Over that there's physics, the grids, their simulation, their transitions. Are examples of this.
So yes, a technological colossus to pull off within the online environment that is the MMO. Why is the instance population the reason it is not?
But it's not like you even do or want to consider this stuff before posting such (and will go with the classic "mark it as LOL", okay then)
There is a "Solo" play option right on the start screen, and it was originally promised with an offline mode. Anyone claiming it is an MMO is seriously abusing the term.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
What I do know is that in terms of SC; it is forcefully one online persistent game-world to all players, the options to play offline or private servers will not be there by release; that's what makes it so.
Some companies grab on to the handle of "MMO" as a way of marketing, but traditionally speaking, it normally implies that you have potentially hundreds of players directly interacting in the same digital space (to have at least the possibility of 500+ players in the same "space" by design was one yardstick by which this website used to deliniate 'MMO or no', or so I'm told).
Granted, the market has moved away from that type of design, and as such the term has become somewhat more nebulous.
That stated, I can't say E:D (or ASE) seem to have even the usual trappings of what goes for a MMO these days. Again... "Solo" right on the start screen.
Even Open World MMOs that allow you to avoid other players most of the time have at least the possibility of letting you run across another player at any given intersection. Game designs that give you the option to play "Solo" or to run your own private server literally guarantee that this will never happen, should you wish. That is an anti-MMO.
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Still no game even though the versions numbers are trying to make it look like the game has launched and is getting a big expansion.
The cash shop launched, and works perfect.
Even a game that offers private servers can still be one MMO as long those servers host their own game-worlds, some do exist around where this happens; but playing within the same online gameworld offline/solo goes against the Multiplayer M of MMO.
On the way technology, as the cloud developed, more and more approach the cloud setups as SC, it's the alternative that allows devs to make more complex online games where all players still persist on the same game-world.
Old-hat was 'let us wreck the server before funneling us off into our own individual instances'.
WoW had a foot in both worlds, and now...
New-hat is 'it's all about individual player experiences'.
It's a spectrum, obviously, but I'm baffled as to how diluted the term "MMO" has become when there is such a convenient alternative handle close by: "CORPG".
"The simple is the seal of the true and beauty is the splendor of truth" -Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar
Authored 139 missions in Vendetta Online and 6 tracks in Distance
Want to really fry your biscuit? Ask yourself this, "Do you think that Star Citizen would have been nearly as successful without comments like this?"
In summary. Thanks for keeping these pointless, circular threads going.
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
That begs another great question, will they launch as 1.0? Mind...... Blown!!!
Crazkanuk
----------------
Azarelos - 90 Hunter - Emerald
Durnzig - 90 Paladin - Emerald
Demonicron - 90 Death Knight - Emerald Dream - US
Tankinpain - 90 Monk - Azjol-Nerub - US
Brindell - 90 Warrior - Emerald Dream - US
----------------
In other words, SC is doing exactly what any other multiplayer/MMO game is doing - sacrifying multiplayer for physics("taking the easy path").
Yet, somehow only SC is "technical colossus" because of that....
[mod edit]
Within what they can push, one of those things ain't network and that is where they are forced to contain it within instances. You nitpicked the network part to discredit everything else being done here.
[mod edit]
Or is this the "What do you mean launch date.......the game is live already. After all, this is version 3.0".
Least viable project......slowly it creeps in.
WoW is on version 7.1.0
SC is 3.0
You would think SC has been live for 4-5 years already.
MWO is already heap more by the fact alone that it is an actual, released game. Besides, MWO is moba, silly comparison.