Double standards

Aenra · January 2017

Otherwise known as hypocrisy
(if like me, you're not a millennial and you use the right word for the right occasion, PC notwithstanding. If this annoys, stick to 'double standards')

Why double standards/hypocrisy?
Remember when a couple of months back the SotA devs asked and pleaded for their players to 'upvote' SotA everywhere? Remember the outcry? A rightful outcry too, i protested myself. Even though I AM A 500$ supporter, i complained along with everyone else. Wrong is wrong, we all felt so good stating it.

(this is where the knowledgeable crowd starts loling, the rest keep reading)

Except just a few days ago, the Pantheon team did exactly the same thing. Proper official post, typed by the head of PR, in the --official-- announcements sub forum, asking us to do what? You guessed it; "help" them by ""upvoting"" their game.
Now that it's done, all i see is hoorays and congratulatory pats on the back. All's fine in the Shire. Ben (aforementioned head of PR) even posted back in that thread, thanking them all for their efforts!!! We now even have a proper new thread, where we can all tell each other how awesomuzzz we arez!
(no, i didn't """help""", not like that. I helped with my money, fair. Transparent)
(yes, i am a backer. 300$ tier. So no, i am NOT a 'hater')

And because most of you are children/mentally underdeveloped:
A resounding YES, i support Pantheon, a resounding YES, i wish them the very best.
But my ethics, my sense of right and wrong..they just are. Sans "exceptions". This was pure manipulation; the key tool of hype. And we all know about hype.

Since when can the little people use every tool at their disposal without even a social hiccup and the others cannot?
More to it, when will you (those of you that are) fanboys CEASE being fanboys and start being functioning individuals?

Am i honestly the only one annoyed by all this?

Anthur · January 2017

How should I know ? I am mentally underdeveloped.

Aenra · January 2017

If you aren't, i don't see what's got you on the defensive..
And if you are? Stay so then. And eeeverything will improve itself. Magically.
As it has, for the entire decade and then some ^^

Right?

Edit: Forgot to mention this in the OP.. i do not blame Ben (Kilsin). PR does what it's told, within the constraints specified to them. This is important. Fair is fair

Kyleran · January 2017

It's within the "rules" of the poll for a dev team to ask their fans to vote, just not vote multiple times or reward them for voting.

I didn't care when SOTA did it, nor Pantheon or anyone else.

There's benefits to being "mentally undeveloped" tends to make me not stress about unimportant concerns such as whether hype is warranted or not.

Now back to addressing some third world problems.

kjempff · January 2017

Even though I am an old goat who has to *shake fist at them youngsters and adjust my hat*, I really don't see much of a problem. This is how part of the marketing is done these days, you raise awareness and get people involved through social media and any media. Asking its supporters to support them, I think any game company would do, so I don't find any special moral issue with linking votes or forum posts from other sites.

ste2000 · January 2017

Aenra said:

And because most of you are children/mentally underdeveloped:

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corechamber · January 2017

I wish I could get this worked up over something as small as this. Congrats on what must be an awesome life. Small companies trying to make games that are different, games that larger companies will never risk to make, have little extra money for advertising. If your the creator or supporter of a game how could you not take the opportunity for free advertising.

What you call and outcry is most likely a small minority of people doing what they always do, finding something to whine about. Its only hypocrisy if those whiners are the same ones that, you say, are patting each other on the back, I would assume not as they are most likely somewhere else whining about some injustice that they feel has happened on the internet.

Maybe your having a bad day and just need to vent and this was the first thing you though of. Maybe your game lost the award and your trying to justify the loss. Either way I hope this post helps you move on and best of luck in life to you.

P.S. Sorry for calling this a small issue, this could be huge for you and I should not minimize it.

corechamber · January 2017

MisterZebub said:

CoreChamber said:

I wish I could get this worked up over something as small as this. Congrats on what must be an awesome life. Small companies trying to make games that are different, games that larger companies will never risk to make, have little extra money for advertising. If your the creator or supporter of a game how could you not take the opportunity for free advertising.

What you call and outcry is most likely a small minority of people doing what they always do, finding something to whine about. Its only hypocrisy if those whiners are the same ones that, you say, are patting each other on the back, I would assume not as they are most likely somewhere else whining about some injustice that they feel has happened on the internet.

Maybe your having a bad day and just need to vent and this was the first thing you though of. Maybe your game lost the award and your trying to justify the loss. Either way I hope this post helps you move on and best of luck in life to you.

P.S. Sorry for calling this a small issue, this could be huge for you and I should not minimize it.

I think you're missing a rather important reason why some of us find this a big issue. Considering how many games have been sodomized by being over hyped the past few years, I don't want to see this game killed before it has a chance due to over-rabid fans.

On the other hand if the game gets no attention and is only known to the few then it will never succeed. I have not seen them over hype anything, and if what they are creating gets an award then that's awesome.

Over hyping does not destroy a game, a bad game destroys a bad game. An MMO cost to operate, if it does not get enough subs then it must close. Its better to over advertise and have 1000 customers and loose half of them than to only get 250 customers because no knew that you existed. It is not ok to mis-lead someone by hyping features that do not exist, War Hammer being a prime example of that.

So I think I do understand your issue, but does the issue exist in this case. If so please list me some examples of how Pantheon has over hyped a feature that one them an award.

ste2000 · January 2017

MisterZebub said:

CoreChamber said:

Yeah and this game is still in very early development on a shoestring budget so we have no fucking clue yet as to its quality. Patheon themselves aren't over hyping this game. I'm addressing the same group of posters that started making numerous posts per day on this site to keep the game on the front page right after the "Go vote for us" request was given.

I would agree with you, but that should work both ways.
If you paid attention, you would have notice what kind of cheap shots some posters throw at this game, so it is only natural that who supports this game retaliates in their own ways.
I never heard such a huge amount of negative posts about a game than what I read about Pantheon, and it's not even in Alpha.

I say the excess of positivity of this game is a direct cause of the excess of negativity, not the other way round.
But of course you are free to disagree, I am sure you probably see it the other way.

EDIT: This thread is the perfect example of the "passive aggressive" mentality that this game has to suffer.
With all the things you can talk (and criticize) about Pantheon, people have to whine about a stupid poll.

Kayo83 · January 2017

Didnt care about SotA doing it. Well, I didnt even know because I dont follow that game (... did they win it?) but either way I wouldnt have cared. I DID see the post on FB for Pantheon and even took the time to vote and see how it was doing. Not only to "help out" but because I wouldve voted for them anyway. They asked to vote for them but the choice was mine. Is it an advantage? Sure, compared to those who didnt bother to reach out to fans, I guess. Fair? Also yes... every single developer that was an option couldve done the same. Hell, this isnt the first time its happened and ive sometimes ended up voting against the ones who pointed me to it just because I thought another game was better.

Really, its a random poll on a 'd-list' site that relies mostly on shady foreign freemium game ads to make money. Theyre a dime a dozen and as pointless as the threads whining for and against directing people towards it. Either way, they may not have all done it but id bet at least some of the other developers did the same yet didnt win anyway.

corechamber · January 2017

MisterZebub said:

CoreChamber said:

MisterZebub said:

CoreChamber said:

I wish I could get this worked up over something as small as this. Congrats on what must be an awesome life. Small companies trying to make games that are different, games that larger companies will never risk to make, have little extra money for advertising. If your the creator or supporter of a game how could you not take the opportunity for free advertising.

What you call and outcry is most likely a small minority of people doing what they always do, finding something to whine about. Its only hypocrisy if those whiners are the same ones that, you say, are patting each other on the back, I would assume not as they are most likely somewhere else whining about some injustice that they feel has happened on the internet.

Maybe your having a bad day and just need to vent and this was the first thing you though of. Maybe your game lost the award and your trying to justify the loss. Either way I hope this post helps you move on and best of luck in life to you.

P.S. Sorry for calling this a small issue, this could be huge for you and I should not minimize it.

I think you're missing a rather important reason why some of us find this a big issue. Considering how many games have been sodomized by being over hyped the past few years, I don't want to see this game killed before it has a chance due to over-rabid fans.

On the other hand if the game gets no attention and is only known to the few then it will never succeed. I have not seen them over hype anything, and if what they are creating gets an award then that's awesome.

Over hyping does not destroy a game, a bad game destroys a bad game. An MMO cost to operate, if it does not get enough subs then it must close. Its better to over advertise and have 1000 customers and loose half of them than to only get 250 customers because no knew that you existed. It is not ok to mis-lead someone by hyping features that do not exist, War Hammer being a prime example of that.

So I think I do understand your issue, but does the issue exist in this case. If so please list me some examples of how Pantheon has over hyped a feature that one them an award.

Yeah and this game is still in very early development on a shoestring budget so we have no fucking clue yet as to its quality. Patheon themselves aren't over hyping this game. I'm addressing the same group of posters that started making numerous posts per day on this site to keep the game on the front page right after the "Go vote for us" request was given. That kind of thing can have a negative impact on a game's future as it draws in the attention of too many people who have no actual good will for the game project. The exact same reason the Pantheon crew charges a small fee to access their serious discussion forums.

Anyone remember when some fans of a little game call Xsyon descended on these forums? Yeah that went well for that game.

Oh MisterZebub,

Bet you like reading you name, your welcome. It sounds like you have a completely different issue then the original poster. Actually it sounds like you already dislike a game that has " no fucking clue yet as to its quality" by MisterZebub, your welcome

. I agree with you, how could a game like this be voted the best MMO, that is an over hype if Ive ever seen one. Never mind I remember that its most wanted MMO, so no game on that list would have all of its feature set built out yet, if it did then it wouldn't be most wanted but most had.

I wish every developer would put a fee on their forum access to prevent opportunities for people to disrupt constructive discussion about a game they are not willing to support. I have not yet backed this game so the constructive is an assumption. Though I have backed games which required pledging to partake in forum discussions and in those instances I can at-test without assumption that it was in fact constructive.

Did Xyson fail, that is debatable. I would say its successful if it makes enough to pay the bills and still develop for the game, which it does. Others would say fail unless it becomes number one. In my opinion that is what is wrong with the game industry, they are trying to make a game that everyone likes, only because some expect them to. Xyson is most likely considered successful amidst its genre, as very few sandbox builders stay open.

I'm sorry that Pantheon being bumped to the top 5 current forum activity has caused you to garner such disreguard for the game. I'm not sure that there is a simple solution to this issue but I wish you the best of luck towards finding it.

PS - I should not assume that you like reading your own name. I admit that it was a snarky remark made to make myself giggle. In that that I succeeded to giggle after rereading I also become aware that I in fact have became a hypocrite as I discourage other not to giggle on another behalf. For that MisterZebub I'm sorry.

mgilbrtsn · January 2017

Seems like an overreaction. It's natural for developers to want their game on top. To cheer your team on seems perfectly ok to me. If you're offering rewards of some sort, then I think it's gone too far. Hell, most probably ignore the cheer leading. If people were that easily convinced, more MMOs would order their fans to buy stock, lootboxes and anything else.

Shaigh · January 2017

ste2000 said:

MisterZebub said:

CoreChamber said:

Yeah and this game is still in very early development on a shoestring budget so we have no fucking clue yet as to its quality. Patheon themselves aren't over hyping this game. I'm addressing the same group of posters that started making numerous posts per day on this site to keep the game on the front page right after the "Go vote for us" request was given.

I would agree with you, but that should work both ways.
If you paid attention, you would have notice what kind of cheap shots some posters throw at this game, so it is only natural that who supports this game retaliates in their own ways.
I never heard such a huge amount of negative posts about a game than what I read about Pantheon, and it's not even in Alpha.

I say the excess of positivity of this game is a direct cause of the excess of negativity, not the other way round.
But of course you are free to disagree, I am sure you probably see it the other way.

Edit: This thread is the perfect example of the "passive aggressive" mentality that this game has to suffer.
With all the things you can talk about (and criticize) about Pantheon, people have to whine about a stupid poll.

Most of the excessive negativity when it comes to pantheon has been directed at Brad Mcquaid and the only reason you believe pantheon has the most negativity is because you are extremely invested in the game and the forums. Its more important when something is about "your game" and when its about some other game you end up ignoring most of it.

As far as discussions goes I would say pantheon discussions have been fairly calm and its extremely far from being the game with the most negativity. Wait until release and you will see some real negativity.

Dkompoze · January 2017

OP wasn't part of a Dev team on either end, so why all the concern over something you weren't a part of anyway. OHHHH you gave them $500 after bashing them for them asking people to up-vote them?

Dont presidents pander for "up-votes" in an election so to speak?

ste2000 · January 2017

Shaigh said:

ste2000 said:

Most of the excessive negativity when it comes to pantheon has been directed at Brad Mcquaid and the only reason you believe pantheon has the most negativity is because you are extremely invested in the game and the forums. Its more important when something is about "your game" and when its about some other game you end up ignoring most of it.

As far as discussions goes I would say pantheon discussions have been fairly calm and its extremely far from being the game with the most negativity. Wait until release and you will see some real negativity.

Making cheap personal attacks on the developer of the game is even worse than criticizing the game itself.
I don't know how can you separate the two things.
You base your opinion of the game on the past misfortunes of its developer, not only that's unfair but also inappropriate.
If you want to criticize the game on its merits you are welcome, but if you are making assumptions on the game based on your personal opinion of Brad Mcquaid don't expect people to stay quiet.

FlyByKnight · January 2017

#NewRule if you open your argument with the word "millennial" you're automatically one of these guys:

Begging fanatics, white knights, or well wishers to upvote things or pollute regular social experiences with pro-speak isn't effective. It's absolutely lazy, and it insults the intelligence of objective people and causes resentment especially if the product being promoted isn't that good. It's something a dweeb would do and "indy" PC game developers are typically oblivious dweebs. I have no problem with having a fanbase and monetizing them but stay in your bubble. Don't encourage minions to go out into objective spaces. It always ends up negative.

There are way more effective and organic ways to have supporters word-of-mouth your product.

filmoret · January 2017

Did you really just write an essay when only a few sentences was required?

Sovrath · January 2017

Aenra said:

Except just a few days ago, the Pantheon team did exactly the same thing. Proper official post, typed by the head of PR, in the --official-- announcements sub forum, asking us to do what? You guessed it; "help" them by ""upvoting"" their game.
Now that it's done, all i see is hoorays and congratulatory pats on the back. All's fine in the Shire. Ben (aforementioned head of PR) even posted back in that thread, thanking them all for their efforts!!! We now even have a proper new thread, where we can all tell each other how awesomuzzz we arez!
(no, i didn't """help""", not like that. I helped with my money, fair. Transparent)
(yes, i am a backer. 300$ tier. So no, i am NOT a 'hater')

Am i honestly the only one annoyed by all this?

Are the people who criticized the up-voting in the first place the exact same people who are excited over the same with Pantheon?

If so you have a solid argument. Otherwise all you are seeing is that there is a group who are excited over Pantheon up-voting and they are completely separate from the other.

Octagon7711 · January 2017

CoreChamber said:

MisterZebub said:

CoreChamber said:

I wish I could get this worked up over something as small as this. Congrats on what must be an awesome life. Small companies trying to make games that are different, games that larger companies will never risk to make, have little extra money for advertising. If your the creator or supporter of a game how could you not take the opportunity for free advertising.

What you call and outcry is most likely a small minority of people doing what they always do, finding something to whine about. Its only hypocrisy if those whiners are the same ones that, you say, are patting each other on the back, I would assume not as they are most likely somewhere else whining about some injustice that they feel has happened on the internet.

Maybe your having a bad day and just need to vent and this was the first thing you though of. Maybe your game lost the award and your trying to justify the loss. Either way I hope this post helps you move on and best of luck in life to you.

P.S. Sorry for calling this a small issue, this could be huge for you and I should not minimize it.

I think you're missing a rather important reason why some of us find this a big issue. Considering how many games have been sodomized by being over hyped the past few years, I don't want to see this game killed before it has a chance due to over-rabid fans.

On the other hand if the game gets no attention and is only known to the few then it will never succeed. I have not seen them over hype anything, and if what they are creating gets an award then that's awesome.

Over hyping does not destroy a game, a bad game destroys a bad game. An MMO cost to operate, if it does not get enough subs then it must close. Its better to over advertise and have 1000 customers and loose half of them than to only get 250 customers because no knew that you existed. It is not ok to mis-lead someone by hyping features that do not exist, War Hammer being a prime example of that.

So I think I do understand your issue, but does the issue exist in this case. If so please list me some examples of how Pantheon has over hyped a feature that one them an award.

I bad game destroys a bad game. :-) And dishonest hype, which is usually not telling the truth by omission. Such as asking if something will be in the game and the guy says yes but doesn't include the fact that it won't be there at launch.

Aelious · January 2017

The assumption here is that the same people who were against Portalarium asking people to vote vote for SotA were for Visionary Realms asking people to vote for Pantheon. Unless there is proof of this the OP is null and void.

Edit: Due to phone screen being jacked up did not see Sov's post before posting. Jinx!

Dullahan · January 2017

Most of the games on the list urged their community to vote in the poll. MMORPG.com also wanted to bring in as many new people as possible by creating more awareness of their site. That was the whole point. Sounds like someone is just upset to see that Pantheon is growing in popularity, despite their secret private knowledge that it's not worthy of it.

Hype is only bad if it isn't based on reality. My hype for Pantheon is the product of hearing about the game, and then seeing those things in gameplay streams.

rochrist · January 2017

Yes.

Kyleran · January 2017

Dullahan said:

Most of the games on the list urged their community to vote inhe poll. MMORPG.com also wanted to bring in as many new people as possible by creating more awareness of their site. That was the whole point. Sounds like someone is just upset to see that Pantheon is growing in popularity, despite their secret private knowledge that it's not worthy of it.

Hype is only bad if it isn't based on reality. My hype for Pantheon is the product of hearing about the game, and then seeing those things in gameplay streams.

People seem to think there's an unreasonable amount of hype around Patheon.

Likely 95 out of 100 gamers have never even heard of it, No Man's Sky this title is not.

Aelious · January 2017

Kyleran said:

Dullahan said:

Most of the games on the list urged their community to vote inhe poll. MMORPG.com also wanted to bring in as many new people as possible by creating more awareness of their site. That was the whole point. Sounds like someone is just upset to see that Pantheon is growing in popularity, despite their secret private knowledge that it's not worthy of it.

Hype is only bad if it isn't based on reality. My hype for Pantheon is the product of hearing about the game, and then seeing those things in gameplay streams.

People seem to think there's an unreasonable amount of hype around Patheon.

Likely 95 out of 100 gamers have never even heard of it, No Man's Sky this title is not.

Indeed, hopefully not

gervaise1 · January 2017

ste2000 said:

MisterZebub said:

CoreChamber said:

<snip>

<snip>
I never heard such a huge amount of negative posts about a game than what I read about Pantheon, and it's not even in Alpha.<snip>

I must confess this made me giggle as it suggests the poster hasn't checked out what gets posted about a certain other KS game.

The sentiment is spot on though. Its hard enough to get new games made as it is without people posting drivel about them over and over and over again.

Hero's song - dead. The Repopulation - as said in the thread struggling because of negativity in the Steam forums.

Pantheon offers hope - to some people - of a certain type of game. I will "wait and see" how it turns out but I don't believe it will be for me. I hope - however - that it gets made and it gets launched.

Anyway well done to the OP for hyping the game by creating a thread!

Lokero · January 2017

I think it's tasteless, when involved in one of those polls, to bandy voters -- unless everyone else on the poll was also doing it.
Other than MU I didn't see any of the others do it, but I don't keep up with any of them that closely either.

That said, I really do not care, because these polls mean absolutely nothing to me. Just having the name of the game on the poll will get anyone who hasn't heard of the game a chance to view it.
You don't really gain anything by winning a random internet poll. There's nothing at stake but a self-congratulatory pat on the back.

So, at the end of the day, it's not worth even caring about.

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Double standards

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

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Double standards

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Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV

"We all do the best we can based on life experience, point of view, and our ability to believe in ourselves." - Naropa "We don't see things as they are, we see them as we are." SR Covey

Fools find no pleasure in understanding but delight in airing their own opinions. Pvbs 18:2, NIV