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How large can a battle get?

This weekend in EVE Band of Brothers (BoB) - probably EVE's premiere PvP alliance - teamed up with two other alliances to take control of a strategic star system linking Empire (secure space) to lawless 0.0...

This star system was home to a major manufacturing/industrial alliance known as TRUST.

BoB alleged TRUST alliance is merely a neutral manufacturing facade for the G & IRON alliances (both enemies of BoB) and therefore a legitimate war target.

To establish their control of the system TRUST had fortified it. All 29 moons in the system were heavily defended by large POS (Player Owned Structures) and with their soverignty established TRUST also constructed an Outpost - a player constructed space station costing approximately 30 billion isk - basically one of the biggest investments you can make in EVE and requiring gigantic cooperation between individuals, cooperations and alliances to construct. 

To capture the Outpost and destroy TRUST's manufacturing capablities BoB needed to remove the defences at all the moons and replace them with their own POS. This is a MAJOR job. Removing even one large POS can be tricky when faced by determined defenders as the attacking ships (particualarly Capital Ships) can be vulnerable to counterattacks while taking the POS shields down.

In what has become one of the most debated issues in EVE history (following on from the famous Istavaan Shogaatsu heist) BoB teamed up with two other alliances - both of who were also enemies of G & IRON and in a massive show of force deployed over 600 pilots in the initial assault on the system.

At least 35 of these were in Capital ships - EVE's current largest (and most expensive) ship type - with over 500 other pilots providing support  which basically meant preventing any reinforcements jumping into the system and attacking the Capital Ships while they destroyed the POS one by one.

The operation took an entire weekend and is still ongoing.

Statement by BoBs Leader

Thanks to the new server upgrades the system did not crash and it was playable if a little laggy - which is to be expected when over 600 people are all in one star system (out of + 5,000 systems in the game)

The effort and logistics required to coordinate and gather 600 people to mount an operation of this size is immense and I am not sure if there is any other MMORPG out there at the moment in which such an event is feasible.

While some could see this attack as a major 'grief' it is actually a way life is in EVE. Competing in industry and commerce is simply another form of PvP. Individuals, corporations and alliances compete for space and resources and it is becoming more intense all the time - which in turn makes politics and diplomacy as important (if not more important) than having a big stick (although having a big stick is always handy )

Anyway the culmination of this is that BoB has severely crippled TRUST's industrial capacity and theoretically its ability to keep supplying G & IRON with the weaponry they need in EVE's ongong arms race...

The only dissappointing thing about this was that the the huge force deployed by BoB and friends actually prevented any serious retaliation (which was their aim after all) and despite forming huge fleets of their own (+200 ships) G/IRON simply couldn't hope to retake the system and therefore (wisely) decided to fight another day...

I am sure that titanic clashes are only just around the corner...

So why I have shared this with you the MMORPG community? Well I am interested to know what you think. Do you think player interactions on this scale is something that will continue to grow as our technology (computers/connections) improve or is this just a flash in the pan?

Amarr Victor

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Comments

  • KormacKormac Member Posts: 297

    Combination:

    • Technology (good technology, mind you -improved even)
    • Games (good ones, of course)
    • Players (many)

    Answer is yes.

    (And by yes I mean: Yeah, titanic struggles will be the major events of the future - if we're lucky and do for once flock to the right games in immense hordes. However, I hope they will be peak moments, not everyday events)

    The future: Adellion
    Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
    Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
    Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
    Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)

  • MadAceMadAce Member Posts: 2,461
    Well I must say I'm... EXTREMELY jalous. Really, I'm jalous beyond belief.


    But I'm patient that there once will be a better mmo than eve and I hope that I will have the swiftness of mind to join it in time.


  • MeonMeon Member Posts: 993

    battles will get bigger and bigger as technology gets better and better. its just that most companies focus more on eye candy(graphics) than reducing lag to allow larger battles.

    the only game i know of that could rival those battles in EVE Online would be Roma Victor, probably being able to support 7,000 people or more in combat (most of them being NPC's though...)

  • AnagethAnageth Member Posts: 2,217
    Wow, that is gonna lag pretty bad...

    No longer visiting MMORPG.com.

  • Ranma13Ranma13 Member Posts: 747


    Originally posted by Meon
    the only game i know of that could rival those battles in EVE Online would be Roma Victor, probably being able to support 7,000 people or more in combat (most of them being NPC's though...)

    NPCs would actually put more strain on the server than real players. Real players will just take up more bandwidth, but NPCs take up more CPU cycles.

  • Ranma13Ranma13 Member Posts: 747

    What the heck? Why are all my posts being double-posted? I'm using Opera 9.00.

  • AnagethAnageth Member Posts: 2,217


    Originally posted by Ranma13

    What the heck? Why are all my posts being double-posted? I'm using Opera 9.00.


    Email: [email protected]

    Maybe they don't know.

    No longer visiting MMORPG.com.

  • Rayx0rRayx0r Member, Newbie CommonPosts: 2,902

    My thoughts on the OP's question? 

    I think large scale warfare "should" be the thing of the future, however more and more MMO's are getting away from interdependancy because they cannot come up with a fun way to achieve this.  Something that CCP has done with Eve. 

    I think it will have more to do with game design, then hardware. Granted, you will need both of these but even if a game like WoW could serve that many characters in a single instance I doubt you would see this happen much because (in its current state) there is no reason to involve this many people in a single battleground.

    In Eve this works because.. thats what it takes. Theres a very good reason why there is a huge fleet of ships taking on other huge fleets of ships.  Losing an engagement in Eve means losing ..a LOT. Not just ship loss, or implant loss.. but territory control and basically your corporations income and safe places.

    More games designers need to look closer at their worlds design then they do giving instant gratification and solo play to players.

    image

    “"If you want a picture of the future, imagine a robot foot stomping on a human face -- forever."
  • nomadiannomadian Member Posts: 3,490
    I might be wrong but I think Lineage had large scale fights, also Planetside could be mentioned here.

  • MadAceMadAce Member Posts: 2,461
    Yes, Planetside features huge scale battles. But not MASSIVE as EVE does.

    Although I'm sure future games will offer that too.


    Roma Victor is absurd. NPC's? Sad.


  • KormacKormac Member Posts: 297


    Originally posted by Ranma13


    Originally posted by Meon
    the only game i know of that could rival those battles in EVE Online would be Roma Victor, probably being able to support 7,000 people or more in combat (most of them being NPC's though...)

    NPCs would actually put more strain on the server than real players. Real players will just take up more bandwidth, but NPCs take up more CPU cycles.


    NPCs need more processing than to know where the player clicked, so they will take more of the server's processing time, yes.

    But the problem isn't necessarily processing time - it might be, I'm no server so I can't tell you. But it may be the sending of thousands of tiny packages within very little time to players. It may be that the processors aren't capable of working at maximum efficiency (and that's NOT 100%, people, that's a burnout) because it has to wait for network responses - or that it (more likely) doesn't wait for network responses, but goes on at its own pace, hoping  people will get their commands shipped and processed on time.

    If the game is faster than the overall connections, then increasing massiveness of gaming experience through npcs might not impair performance.

    And are npcs sad? I don't think so. I think they should play a very supplementary role, but I don't consider them sad. And anybody making such a crude blanket statement might want to elaborate on why npcs are universally sad without regard for the game context they happen to exist within. I like content to be player driven, but that is no reason for players not to be able to bring in (at some expense) a number of limited-capability npcs to aid in one way or another - preferably in a peripheral role not intended for the main playerbase. In a combat game, I would like to see a player run a shop, but I wouldn't mind the shopkeeper being an npc hired by him most of the time. But if he stands there himself, he'll make more profits, not having to pay an npc.

    The future: Adellion
    Common flaw in MMORPGs: The ability to die casually
    Advantages of Adellion: Dynamic world (affected by its inhabitants)
    Player-driven world (beasts won't be an endless supply of mighty swords, gold will come from mines, not dragonly dens)
    Player-driven world (Leadership is the privilege of a player, not an npc)

  • daeandordaeandor Member UncommonPosts: 2,694


    Originally posted by MadAce
    Yes, Planetside features huge scale battles. But not MASSIVE as EVE does.

    Although I'm sure future games will offer that too.


    Roma Victor is absurd. NPC's? Sad.


    To answer your first question, yes I think that truely massive battles are going to become a standard for pvp-centric games.  Man they are such a blast to be involved in too!

    When I first played PS years ago, nearly every battle was capped on players.  I forget what the cap was for spawning in a region, but i know it was hundreds.  I also know that hundreds of players would line up outside the ports to those regions waiting to get into the fight.  My point being that huge battles have a precidence and fortunately EVE has the game / system to facilitate them now.  DAOC in it's hayday also had some significant relic battles involving nearly 300 PC's and probably 50 npc's, although lag was unbearable.

    As a final note about your Roma Victor comment.  As far as I have read, RV is trying to allow for the massive battles that took place between legions and barbarians, and the only way to do that is to make the ranks fill out with npcs.  Within the context of their game I think it is excellent that they allow a simple soldier (PC) to take part as an auxiliary or legionaire in these battles regardless of the participation of the other PCs.

  • MeonMeon Member Posts: 993


    Originally posted by MadAce
    Yes, Planetside features huge scale battles. But not MASSIVE as EVE does.Although I'm sure future games will offer that too.Roma Victor is absurd. NPC's? Sad.

    now what exactly is "sad" about that?

  • CopelandCopeland Member Posts: 1,955

    as a participant in trying to defend EC i will say this.

    Battles on EVE can't be that large. While the node withstood the presence of 600 people in the system when 200 G/Iron/Razor members tried to jump in they were destroyed before they even had control of their ships. EVE still has a long way to go. BoB/ASCN/5 did a fine job in organizing and achieving their goals. As of today they are pulling out and going home.

    Let me add that BoB/ASCN/5 specifically said they brought that many so there could be no defense of the system in question. To me it was a borderline exploit since they knew no matter how big the opposing fleet was they couldn't jump in and load before they were blown up. It took roughly 10 minutes to load in which is plenty of time to destroy a fleet.

    also the reason for these actions were simply BoB got its ego hurt by not being able to purchase the first mothership. G alliance is the first alliance to have a manufactured mothership. They will have the 2nd too :P

  • CillasiCillasi Member UncommonPosts: 335

    Large scale wars are feasible, but the victor has to suffer losses also.  So, you may defeat the Trust, but bottom line is, your resources must also be depleted, which may make you a target for some other large organization.  War is expensive, even when victory is undeniable and swift.  War must suck away money and resources as it does in real life if these type of  large-scale scenarios will be kept in check (i.e., a once a year rather than a once a weekend event).  The defeated must have options for retaliation, from sabotage to terrorism, to civil unrest and disobedience, to insurgency, etc., all of which draw resources from the victor. 

    This "victory" cannot make your organization so strong that it can stomp all over the galaxy wiping out all opposition, only gaining more strength with each victory.  At some point, the size of your "empire" must become a liability, just as with the Romans and the Turks and even the British.  Even if you are victorious, you may find you have to give up territory in order to survive. 

    In other words, large-scale wars cannot be allowed to become the focus of the game unless it is intended to be the focus of the game.  Does that make sense? 

  • JaziaJazia Member Posts: 584

    Lineage 2 has huge battles at castle sieges.

    The biggest I knew so far had 900+ players at one siege (moderator confirmed).

    And the biggest siege I fought had 800+ players, involved 5 alliances 600+ players attacked on us 2 alliances 200+ players.  Of course we lost.

    And following is another siege which definately had 600+ players. 

    All sieges have mostly real players(and all above numbers are real players), only the castle lord alliance can have about 50~100 npc guards to help them defending.

    (note:  what you see is just what was in front of me, you don't see what's behind me lol, more players were behind me.   And what you see is, hundreds players from several different alliances joined forces to remove 1 bad alliance from this castle, and the big thing you see are siege golems made by dwarves that were used to bashing the castle walls and gate, so we can actually get into the castle.  Sure players can bashing the gate too, but only will be killed by defenders' arrows and magic spells from far above, siege golems are much more efficient)

    http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/5624/siege0025uf.jpg

    http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/5472/siege0011tv.jpg

    And yeah, it is quite laggy when all the 500+ attacking players tried to get through the one hole on the castle wall lol, and when inside hallway.    Had to turn down everything to lowest details, which is why the grahpic doesn't look so great on the screenshots.

  • nomadiannomadian Member Posts: 3,490

    [quote]Yes, Planetside features huge scale battles. But not MASSIVE as EVE
    does.Although I'm sure future games will offer that too.Roma Victor is
    absurd. NPC's? Sad.[/quote]
    Wow you just got me excited about Roma Victor. I see your point in players being better but when you have boring dynamics such as WoW's with scarcely any npc fighting then this Roma Victor prospect sounds quite exciting.



  • GreatnessGreatness Member UncommonPosts: 2,155

    Ya when I played Lineage 2, seiges were always huge! Always seeing TONS of players + with there pets/summons making it bigger.

    Plus in between (seiges every alternating week per server, so there will be castle seiges every week) there are always small-scale battles going on (usually like 30-50 people since guilds call for back-up, random players join in like me  ). Every now and then you get a big-battle in between too.

    ~Greatness~

    MMORPG Blog
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  • MadAceMadAce Member Posts: 2,461

    Why I call NPC's sad: Well... I'm gonna say this with less frustration than really needs venting about this subject.



    IT IS AN MMO
    NOTICE THE MULTYPLAYER!!!!


    I don't like NPC's since AI is generally a joke. They don't hav a soul. It's like playing versus a chess computer. It will put up a nice fith but the fight is... COLD.

    Same with grinding. And queests. It's just packaging the fact that you need to spend time and button pushes to recieve something. Sure, it might be a challenge. But you are a human, you will adapt. But very little AI will adapt with you, and even then to a very small extent.

    That is why I stopped playing singleplayer games a long time ago. I would like to be challenged. I'd rather lose from a human than I'd win from an NPC.

    Fellow human beings can push you to your limits.

    Look at the screenshots of  Lineage 2. I'm not a huge fantasy fan... But it does something with me. Those are al PEOPLE. They are all dedicated for that goal, they are organised (hopefully) and they... Well they...

    Are united. Sounds corny. I know. But it gives a rush to be able to do something together with people. it's even a biger rush to organise that, which is my only talent in games. Sure, you can organise NPC's. But that's no challenge.


    MMO's are here to bring PEOPLE closer together. Not bring people closer to computers. If we need wars to creata a challenging framework for united ventures, so be it.


    Tell me you can listen to stories about EVE and see screens of Lineag 2 or play PS without feeling at least SOMETHING.


  • JaziaJazia Member Posts: 584
    Yes Lineage2's pvp is definately Organized.

    See those symbols above players' heads? Those are alliance symboals. Each alliances can have max 12 clans, each clan can have max 40 players. Most alliances are ranged from 60~200+ players.

    The communication in Lineage2 for big alliances are usually done with teamspeak. Quite easy to work together for each alliances, a bit harder work between alliances unless both agree on getting onto the same TS.

    You just can't pvp well in L2 without organiztion lol. Unless it's small ganking.

    As the matter of fact, in L2 the buffs are SO important, that one perfect buffed party(max 9 players each party) can kill 5 other parties if they don't have buffs at all. And the perfect party require specific classes in order to make the buffs "perfect". All this require lots of organzation. And during pvp, the key besides having the correct classes in each party is to have each party focus on a single target one at a time. Thus you can drop the enemy faster, and your own ppl take less damage. I don't think it is hard to understand that if 9 ppl each have their own target is a lot slower fighting then all 9 ppl target enemy #1, then enemy #2, then enemy #3 and so on one at a time.(we have this "assist" function in L2 for easier focusing on the same target for the same party) So basicly each alliances would have make lots of channels on ts, to have each party have a different channel, while the party leader can hear from the alliance leader's high command. Within your own party's channel, you will hear "assist me!" or "my target!" things like that. Alliance leaders will give orders for the main battle plans, such as where to gather, when to match to the castle, which direction to attack, where enemies are spotted, what to do now, etc. etc/

    Lots lots of organiation.

    In L2 A well organized force can beat a unorganized force several times larger. Well since everyone isn't that dumb any more, usually no way you can lose to an enemy force which is half the size of your force unless your players' average level is a lot lower with poor equipments, and lack of necessary classes to put up "perfect" parties. A side note, of course castle defending force has the advantages when the number/lvl/gears are even.


    Siege is one thing, now each server of L2 has 7 castles. Sieges take place every 2 weeks. While open pvp happens every day between hostile alliances at anywhere and any time, but open pvp is usually smaller scale fight compare to siege. Still the biggest open pvp I saw had 200+ players lol...rare but still happens. Most normal open pvp would be 10~50+ players. Sometimes 1 on 1 ganking(sneak attack) during enemy xping.


    Hope you got a better idea about L2 now. And yeah the grinding in L2 sux though. All for doing well in pvp/siege.
  • nomadiannomadian Member Posts: 3,490
    Shame WoW didn't take inspiration from Lineage/2 then.

  • TertiusTertius Member UncommonPosts: 62
    I've seen similar numbers in RvR battles on DaoC. True, when battles of this size first occured (3 years ago) they tended to crash the zone and/or server but there were some memorable battles once Mythic got their servers straightened out. I recall a relic seige on Guinevere that lasted about a week, with enormous numbers of players committed and fighting in the same zone 24/7.

    Sadly, the scale of battles in DaoC has dwindled as the game has aged a bit, but it's REALLY good to see Eve approach the same sort of warfare, albeit in space. There is nothing that compares IMHO to this sort of large-scale war in a MMORPG. More fun cannot be had with clothes on.


  • MadAceMadAce Member Posts: 2,461
    WoW might be fun... But it's more a singleplayer game with a chat box.

    I feel even Runescape has more passionate PvP.


  • HardinHardin Member Posts: 70
    Thanks for all your responses...

    Amarr Victor

  • leipurileipuri Member Posts: 559


    Originally posted by MadAce
    Yes, Planetside features huge scale battles. But not MASSIVE as EVE does.


    Just to add that even if planetside did have so huge fights it would still be missing player politics. In planetside you fight against other players just because dev team decided that these were enemies and coded it into game. In eve its players who control that whos their enemy and friend.

    After reading eve forums it seem like there was a lot of whining how bob was going and allying with everyone, next thing comes this http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=320251 (they reseting all standings), then they give the outpost to neutral alliance to upkeep http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=320367 who no doubt will be under heavy preasure soon enough. Well there is lot more cool events this week, read what open pvp+high risk(where loses means something)+player politics does to mmorpg here http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=channel&channelID=3521

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