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  • MendelMendel Member EpicPosts: 3,021
    Kxelem said:
    Craft in a group you get higher tier items and you get more xp from it.  Harvest in a group you get higher tier mats and more xp from it.  Fish in a group you get higher tier mats and more xp from it.  Lots to do in a group setting :) 
    While in principle this sounds good, it just encourages people to bot.  Proximity has got to be important, otherwise you end up with a 'group' of people each acting and functioning independently, e.g., grouped but solo to get the 'bonus'.  Grouping should encourage, and even require, some degree of cooperative effort, not a series of independent activity.  Unless the urn you are crafting or the fishing pole is the size of a telephone pole, these are solo activities, not group actions.

    Original EQ1 had enough problems balancing XP between groups and solo.  The concept of a single mob is worth a finite number of XP causes problems when dividing this amount between multiple characters.  EQ1's solution (a totally unsatisfactory solution, in my opinion) was to add a modicum of bonus XP, from 1-to-10% for killing with a group.  For a group of 6, the experience per kill might be (baseXP * 1.10)/6.  A solo player always got baseXP (pets and charmed critters later took a substantial portion of this amount).  The theory was that the group could operate with less downtime than the solo player.  That wasn't always true, however.

    Along with waiting, these two ideas are things I really do not want to experience again.

    Logic, my dear, merely enables one to be wrong with great authority.

  • BuccaneerBuccaneer Member UncommonPosts: 654
    IMO in this thread the LFG tool is getting a lot of blame for the limited social interactions which plague the more modern MMORPG.  I've used varying tools over the years, from chat channels to the dungeon finders and have had good and bad groups in all off the systems.

    I don't think the problem is the LFG/DF tool but more the content it is linked to.  In older games dungeons or good old fashion group camping had downtime, which gave the group loads of opportunity to socialise.  Grouping in modern MMO's now mostly consist of speed runs with minimal downtime, which is having the negative impact of the social aspects of grouping.  It will not matter if your group is formed in chat or auto grouped; if the content allows the players to rush through it, your still be lucky to just get a hello once in the dungeon.  Bringing back the downtime within dungeons or camping and making the content interesting and rewarding to explore will bring back (IMO) the missing social aspect of old MMO's.

    I prefer to see a robust grouping tool with options to help tailor the group without the dungeon finder aspect.  I wouldn't mind seeing quick travel to the dungeon once in the same zone as the entrance.  I don't think there is nothing wrong with allowing a little bit of convenience to aid groups getting to the action a little bit quicker.
  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Mendel said:
      


    Original EQ1 had enough problems balancing XP between groups and solo.  The concept of a single mob is worth a finite number of XP causes problems when dividing this amount between multiple characters.  EQ1's solution (a totally unsatisfactory solution, in my opinion) was to add a modicum of bonus XP, from 1-to-10% for killing with a group.  For a group of 6, the experience per kill might be (baseXP * 1.10)/6.  A solo player always got baseXP (pets and charmed critters later took a substantial portion of this amount).  The theory was that the group could operate with less downtime than the solo player.  That wasn't always true, however.

    Along with waiting, these two ideas are things I really do not want to experience again.

    Your experience was drastically different from most people's.  EQ's group and zone bonus XP setup was in my opinion one of if not the best that existed. It properly incentivized grouping and properly incentivized going into dungeons.

    With the exception of quad kiting druids and such, grouping was ALWAYS better XP than soloing, period, end of conversation.

    On top of all the XP bonuses, you actually had a chance at good gear.


    /mindboggled

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • HrimnirHrimnir Member RarePosts: 2,413
    Buccaneer said:
    IMO in this thread the LFG tool is getting a lot of blame for the limited social interactions which plague the more modern MMORPG.  I've used varying tools over the years, from chat channels to the dungeon finders and have had good and bad groups in all off the systems.

    I don't think the problem is the LFG/DF tool but more the content it is linked to.  In older games dungeons or good old fashion group camping had downtime, which gave the group loads of opportunity to socialise.  Grouping in modern MMO's now mostly consist of speed runs with minimal downtime, which is having the negative impact of the social aspects of grouping.  It will not matter if your group is formed in chat or auto grouped; if the content allows the players to rush through it, your still be lucky to just get a hello once in the dungeon.  Bringing back the downtime within dungeons or camping and making the content interesting and rewarding to explore will bring back (IMO) the missing social aspect of old MMO's.

    I prefer to see a robust grouping tool with options to help tailor the group without the dungeon finder aspect.  I wouldn't mind seeing quick travel to the dungeon once in the same zone as the entrance.  I don't think there is nothing wrong with allowing a little bit of convenience to aid groups getting to the action a little bit quicker.

    There is some validity to this.  I think it was a combination of cross server and transporting you to the dungeon that was the bulk of the problem.  I agree that the faceroll style that WoW morphed into where running the dungeon just became a "gogogogogogogoggogo" proposition was probably the straw that broke the camels back for most of us.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently."

    - Friedrich Nietzsche

  • AeliousAelious Member RarePosts: 3,521
    Hrimnir said:
    Mendel said:
      


    Original EQ1 had enough problems balancing XP between groups and solo.  The concept of a single mob is worth a finite number of XP causes problems when dividing this amount between multiple characters.  EQ1's solution (a totally unsatisfactory solution, in my opinion) was to add a modicum of bonus XP, from 1-to-10% for killing with a group.  For a group of 6, the experience per kill might be (baseXP * 1.10)/6.  A solo player always got baseXP (pets and charmed critters later took a substantial portion of this amount).  The theory was that the group could operate with less downtime than the solo player.  That wasn't always true, however.

    Along with waiting, these two ideas are things I really do not want to experience again.

    Your experience was drastically different from most people's.  EQ's group and zone bonus XP setup was in my opinion one of if not the best that existed. It properly incentivized grouping and properly incentivized going into dungeons.

    With the exception of quad kiting druids and such, grouping was ALWAYS better XP than soloing, period, end of conversation.

    On top of all the XP bonuses, you actually had a chance at good gear.


    /mindboggled


    Another part of the solo experience would be what class was played. As a Paladin I loved grouping because it was the only way to get decent xp. Was the best decision I ever made as xp groups and having a role, if done well, was the most pleasure and sense of accomplishment I've gotten in an MMO.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    Buccaneer said:
    IMO in this thread the LFG tool is getting a lot of blame for the limited social interactions which plague the more modern MMORPG.  I've used varying tools over the years, from chat channels to the dungeon finders and have had good and bad groups in all off the systems.

    I don't think the problem is the LFG/DF tool but more the content it is linked to.  In older games dungeons or good old fashion group camping had downtime, which gave the group loads of opportunity to socialise.  Grouping in modern MMO's now mostly consist of speed runs with minimal downtime, which is having the negative impact of the social aspects of grouping.  It will not matter if your group is formed in chat or auto grouped; if the content allows the players to rush through it, your still be lucky to just get a hello once in the dungeon.  Bringing back the downtime within dungeons or camping and making the content interesting and rewarding to explore will bring back (IMO) the missing social aspect of old MMO's.

    I prefer to see a robust grouping tool with options to help tailor the group without the dungeon finder aspect.  I wouldn't mind seeing quick travel to the dungeon once in the same zone as the entrance.  I don't think there is nothing wrong with allowing a little bit of convenience to aid groups getting to the action a little bit quicker.
    Yeah, I mostly agree. How people find each other doesn't make or break it. What people do after is more important. If soloing is problematic, and the danger posed by the world is real, people will naturally appreciate other players more.

    That said, any time you replace player interaction on any level, it's a step in the wrong direction for an MMORPG in my opinion, and based on what I've observed, those little missteps usually lead to more and bigger ones.


  • delete5230delete5230 Member EpicPosts: 5,589
    Hrimnir said:
    Buccaneer said:
    IMO in this thread the LFG tool is getting a lot of blame for the limited social interactions which plague the more modern MMORPG.  I've used varying tools over the years, from chat channels to the dungeon finders and have had good and bad groups in all off the systems.

    I don't think the problem is the LFG/DF tool but more the content it is linked to.  In older games dungeons or good old fashion group camping had downtime, which gave the group loads of opportunity to socialise.  Grouping in modern MMO's now mostly consist of speed runs with minimal downtime, which is having the negative impact of the social aspects of grouping.  It will not matter if your group is formed in chat or auto grouped; if the content allows the players to rush through it, your still be lucky to just get a hello once in the dungeon.  Bringing back the downtime within dungeons or camping and making the content interesting and rewarding to explore will bring back (IMO) the missing social aspect of old MMO's.

    I prefer to see a robust grouping tool with options to help tailor the group without the dungeon finder aspect.  I wouldn't mind seeing quick travel to the dungeon once in the same zone as the entrance.  I don't think there is nothing wrong with allowing a little bit of convenience to aid groups getting to the action a little bit quicker.

    There is some validity to this.  I think it was a combination of cross server and transporting you to the dungeon that was the bulk of the problem.  I agree that the faceroll style that WoW morphed into where running the dungeon just became a "gogogogogogogoggogo" proposition was probably the straw that broke the camels back for most of us.

    +2 on this


    Cross server = NG
    Transporting to location = NG
    Ease of Dungeons ( gogogo ) = NG

    Everything automatic has no place in an mmo !

    Developers need to get crafty with a more natural approach !


    A suggestion for everyone that likes extremely automatic ?......Simple, play the over 200 mmos on the list.


  • Kayo83Kayo83 Member UncommonPosts: 387
    edited January 2017
    danwest58 said:

    I understand where you are coming from however the negatives of any LFD tool just hurts the game too much. 
    Well you basically brought up the same points I made. WotLK is where the jump into easy mode took off. Queue up, AoE, repeat for 10 minutes, done. Still goes on to this day. Ill admit that LFD/LFR may have played its part in driving developers to simplify everything, but that was their decision. A result of developers looking at charts and tossing out game design because "winning is more fun." That can easily be prevented by the devs by sticking to their guns on challenge and difficulty.

    Aside from that seems some of you just want to have full control to pick out others at your sole discretion. Thats fine and there are plenty of ways to do just that. Hell if they really want to innovate they can add an "auto-group" option and allow "leaders" to search the active queue for players. Most players, most of the time, no matter what tools are available will just boil down to first come first serve LF(x)M . It was that way when only chat was available, it was that way with searchable lists, and its that way now with LFD.

    Almost every point you made for why the social aspect of MMOs has plummeted is based around actual content design. Obviously there is only so much a computer can specify without fragmenting the entire server but like I said, specific "learning groups," "speed runs" or what have you are the exception, not the norm. To say that sticking players in town for hours is worth it just so you can nit pick players doesnt sound very practical, or proactive. So long as they dont revert to the instanced 10 minutes, easy AoE spam dungeons with participation tokens to farm, it shouldnt be any different than the old way of spamming people.
  • Kayo83Kayo83 Member UncommonPosts: 387
    Dullahan said:

    Yeah, I mostly agree. How people find each other doesn't make or break it. What people do after is more important. If soloing is problematic, and the danger posed by the world is real, people will naturally appreciate other players more.

    That said, any time you replace player interaction on any level, it's a step in the wrong direction for an MMORPG in my opinion, and based on what I've observed, those little missteps usually lead to more and bigger ones.
    Well said, first paragraph anyway :P

    Personally I wouldnt really consider the following as "player interaction"

    Player1: /1 LF1M for Doom Dungeon
    Player2: /w Player1 Ill go

    I think we could do without that small bit of social activity if it means neither one of those need to wait around doing nothing.
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 1,990
    Amathe said:
    There seems to be a widely held belief that without group finder, players will walk up to other players and ask to group up to invade the haunted fortress on the outskirts of town. And in that conversation, they will bond and then go smoke some old Toby together outside the local Inn.

    Some will, sure.

    But many will form/join the type of huge, impersonal guilds we often see nowadays in GW2. Hundreds and hundreds of members. Nobody really knows anyone. Nobody cares. Guild chat is a LFG tool and little else.

    Some may see this as socializing, but I can't say I do.
    That is because countless guild leaders gave up running a guild because it is no longer worth the time because when the overwhelming majority of MMO Players tell other MMO players just to fucking queue up and stop asking to group up you get large pointless guilds.   MMO Players survived very well and very easily pre LFD tools.  It was just on their shoulders to find a guild that fit their game needs and social needs.  Why the hell would I ever run a guild again if the game has a LFD tool in it?  I will give you a hint I woulnt because games with LFD tools Guilds are fucking useless outside top end raiding.  You know what when I went from WOW to SWTOR before SWTOR had their LFD tool?  I had a very successful guild that had flashpoints going all the time during our peak times, and was rated the 12th best guild on the server not just because we raided an progressed but because people could get groups together with easy.  You know who bitched on the forums?  The same people who want solo dungeons and raids because they didnt want to join a guild or make friends.

    I hate to tell you this but LFD FUCKED UP an entire genera because not everyone is meant to play an MMO yet they were added to they could have millions of players playing the game.  Guess what It's a Failed game design.  
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 1,990
    Forgrimm said:
    WoW has 2 different grouping tools. The LFD/LFR is the automated one that randomly groups you by role and ports you to the raid/dungeon and is used for casual content. Then there's the group finder tool, which you can use for organizing quest groups, dungeon runs, raids, etc. It doesn't port you to the instance and it doesn't randomly pick people. You set-up a group based on what you want to do, enter a title for people to browse, enter some info about what you're doing and what you're looking for, then you post it.

    Other people browsing the group finder can see your post and apply to the group, as well as leave a short message about their character. The leader then receives the invite request and decides to accept or reject. Everyone still has to manually make their way to the group. But it helps immensely for people running content like mythic dungeons, which can't be queued for via the LFD tool. And it's light years better than spamming a macro LFG message every 2 minutes.
    Again today's WOW LFG tool or FFXIVs Party Finder tool is not a problem for any game, they would help any MMO.  The Problem is LFD/LFR/Duty Finder all have caused major problems with MMOs.
  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 1,990
    Buccaneer said:
    IMO in this thread the LFG tool is getting a lot of blame for the limited social interactions which plague the more modern MMORPG.  I've used varying tools over the years, from chat channels to the dungeon finders and have had good and bad groups in all off the systems.

    I don't think the problem is the LFG/DF tool but more the content it is linked to.  In older games dungeons or good old fashion group camping had downtime, which gave the group loads of opportunity to socialise.  Grouping in modern MMO's now mostly consist of speed runs with minimal downtime, which is having the negative impact of the social aspects of grouping.  It will not matter if your group is formed in chat or auto grouped; if the content allows the players to rush through it, your still be lucky to just get a hello once in the dungeon.  Bringing back the downtime within dungeons or camping and making the content interesting and rewarding to explore will bring back (IMO) the missing social aspect of old MMO's.

    I prefer to see a robust grouping tool with options to help tailor the group without the dungeon finder aspect.  I wouldn't mind seeing quick travel to the dungeon once in the same zone as the entrance.  I don't think there is nothing wrong with allowing a little bit of convenience to aid groups getting to the action a little bit quicker.
    Yes Game play as something to do with the problem with Socialization too.  The PROBLEM is they go head and hand.  Yoshi-P and one of the Blizzard developers during Blizzcon said that "YOU CANNOT HAVE CHALLENGING CONTENT THAT REQUIRES COMMUNICATED IN A RANDOMLY MATCHED GROUP"  Sorry for the Caps but I wanted to make sure what basically was said is the focus of my message.   So While Yes you need content that requires communication a bit of down time and team work, it has been found that randomly matched groups cannot handle this content at all.  Why do you think they dumbed down Cata dungeons?  Because requiring team work for random people just dont work.  This is why FFXIV makes it very easy to know what you need to do in a boss fight in an instance.  Because people just want to face roll shit, also look at WildStar they added the Random Match making in that game from the start and guess what, the hardcore game was an epic failure.

    You cannot have Hard content go with Randomly Matched Groups.  While Yes you need hard content for helping people socialize it does not work with a tool that is designed for anti social people with short attention spans.  Why do you think so many people like MOBAs?  15 to 20 min matches queue again 3 minutes later start it all over again.
  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,275
    danwest58 said:
    Amathe said:
    There seems to be a widely held belief that without group finder, players will walk up to other players and ask to group up to invade the haunted fortress on the outskirts of town. And in that conversation, they will bond and then go smoke some old Toby together outside the local Inn.

    Some will, sure.

    But many will form/join the type of huge, impersonal guilds we often see nowadays in GW2. Hundreds and hundreds of members. Nobody really knows anyone. Nobody cares. Guild chat is a LFG tool and little else.

    Some may see this as socializing, but I can't say I do.
    That is because countless guild leaders gave up running a guild because it is no longer worth the time because when the overwhelming majority of MMO Players tell other MMO players just to fucking queue up and stop asking to group up you get large pointless guilds.   MMO Players survived very well and very easily pre LFD tools.  It was just on their shoulders to find a guild that fit their game needs and social needs.  Why the hell would I ever run a guild again if the game has a LFD tool in it?  I will give you a hint I woulnt because games with LFD tools Guilds are fucking useless outside top end raiding.  You know what when I went from WOW to SWTOR before SWTOR had their LFD tool?  I had a very successful guild that had flashpoints going all the time during our peak times, and was rated the 12th best guild on the server not just because we raided an progressed but because people could get groups together with easy.  You know who bitched on the forums?  The same people who want solo dungeons and raids because they didnt want to join a guild or make friends.

    I hate to tell you this but LFD FUCKED UP an entire genera because not everyone is meant to play an MMO yet they were added to they could have millions of players playing the game.  Guess what It's a Failed game design.  
    Pretty much and it's true that casual gaming was 2-4 hours a night back in the day. Now you have people clamoring for 15-30 minute dungeons. MMO's were designed with D&D style RP gamers in mind, not twitch ADHD FPS junkies, which seems to have somehow been incorporated to encompass a larger audience.

    MMORPG's are not for the FPS / MOBA community and for some reason, they don't seem to understand that. Despite the fact we already have a plethora of useless MMO's that cater to that crap, please don't come to a classic old school, hardcore MMO forum and try to claim it as outdated and niche. MMO's were founded on this mentality and we'd like to keep it that way.

  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 1,990
    Kayo83 said:
    danwest58 said:

    I understand where you are coming from however the negatives of any LFD tool just hurts the game too much. 
    Well you basically brought up the same points I made. WotLK is where the jump into easy mode took off. Queue up, AoE, repeat for 10 minutes, done. Still goes on to this day. Ill admit that LFD/LFR may have played its part in driving developers to simplify everything, but that was their decision. A result of developers looking at charts and tossing out game design because "winning is more fun." That can easily be prevented by the devs by sticking to their guns on challenge and difficulty.

    Aside from that seems some of you just want to have full control to pick out others at your sole discretion. Thats fine and there are plenty of ways to do just that. Hell if they really want to innovate they can add an "auto-group" option and allow "leaders" to search the active queue for players. Most players, most of the time, no matter what tools are available will just boil down to first come first serve LF(x)M . It was that way when only chat was available, it was that way with searchable lists, and its that way now with LFD.

    Almost every point you made for why the social aspect of MMOs has plummeted is based around actual content design. Obviously there is only so much a computer can specify without fragmenting the entire server but like I said, specific "learning groups," "speed runs" or what have you are the exception, not the norm. To say that sticking players in town for hours is worth it just so you can nit pick players doesnt sound very practical, or proactive. So long as they dont revert to the instanced 10 minutes, easy AoE spam dungeons with participation tokens to farm, it shouldnt be any different than the old way of spamming people.
    While you are correct for the most part.  I pointed out in another post that 2 MMO Developers from 2 different companies said that you cannot make any challenging content with automated group matching tools.  This is why Blizzard has Mythic Dungeons and you cannot queue for them.  Also FFXIV is thinking about a Mythic like Dungeon for it's game.  Why?  Because people who will do the challenging content will communicate or fail.  It's also expected that you will not bitch endlessly that you cannot complete the content as a solo player or LFD is not involved because it is not made for you.  

    I do think there is content for match making and then there is content that does not belong anywhere near match making.  I think thats where MMOs need to go.  Say all the old stuff is Match making material and make that old stuff stay tough for new players do not dumb it down but make the content focus a player on learning their role vs go go go go go.  That why later on when there is no match making tool they learn their role and can step up to the next level easier.  


  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 1,990
    Rhoklaw said:
    danwest58 said:
    Amathe said:
    There seems to be a widely held belief that without group finder, players will walk up to other players and ask to group up to invade the haunted fortress on the outskirts of town. And in that conversation, they will bond and then go smoke some old Toby together outside the local Inn.

    Some will, sure.

    But many will form/join the type of huge, impersonal guilds we often see nowadays in GW2. Hundreds and hundreds of members. Nobody really knows anyone. Nobody cares. Guild chat is a LFG tool and little else.

    Some may see this as socializing, but I can't say I do.
    That is because countless guild leaders gave up running a guild because it is no longer worth the time because when the overwhelming majority of MMO Players tell other MMO players just to fucking queue up and stop asking to group up you get large pointless guilds.   MMO Players survived very well and very easily pre LFD tools.  It was just on their shoulders to find a guild that fit their game needs and social needs.  Why the hell would I ever run a guild again if the game has a LFD tool in it?  I will give you a hint I woulnt because games with LFD tools Guilds are fucking useless outside top end raiding.  You know what when I went from WOW to SWTOR before SWTOR had their LFD tool?  I had a very successful guild that had flashpoints going all the time during our peak times, and was rated the 12th best guild on the server not just because we raided an progressed but because people could get groups together with easy.  You know who bitched on the forums?  The same people who want solo dungeons and raids because they didnt want to join a guild or make friends.

    I hate to tell you this but LFD FUCKED UP an entire genera because not everyone is meant to play an MMO yet they were added to they could have millions of players playing the game.  Guess what It's a Failed game design.  
    Pretty much and it's true that casual gaming was 2-4 hours a night back in the day. Now you have people clamoring for 15-30 minute dungeons. MMO's were designed with D&D style RP gamers in mind, not twitch ADHD FPS junkies, which seems to have somehow been incorporated to encompass a larger audience.

    MMORPG's are not for the FPS / MOBA community and for some reason, they don't seem to understand that. Despite the fact we already have a plethora of useless MMO's that cater to that crap, please don't come to a classic old school, hardcore MMO forum and try to claim it as outdated and niche. MMO's were founded on this mentality and we'd like to keep it that way.
    I agree with you on that.  Hell I am a casual schedule player myself, I can maybe push 12 to 15 hours gaming a week.  Best I can do.  these 15 to 30 minute dungeons are boring.  Now do I think a BRD has it's place YEP but it shouldnt be the norm.  I am thinking 60 to 90 minute dungeons and not Pull full packs and AOE tank dungeons.  I am thinking 2 CCs and maybe a 3rd CC or OT setup like older dungeons.  Dungeons like Scholo, or SM, or UD Strat, or Ramparts, or SL.  None of these were too long to me at least and even when I was teaching new players how to run dungeons you could do this casually you also didnt run dungeons 7 days a week, you might do 1 or 2 a week.  

    Problem is today's dungeons is nothing more than a treadmill.  I guess I can see old content/leveling dungeons being that way to a point but not like it is today.
  • baphametbaphamet Member RarePosts: 3,304
    Rhoklaw said:


    MMORPG's are not for the FPS / MOBA community and for some reason, they don't seem to understand that. Despite the fact we already have a plethora of useless MMO's that cater to that crap, please don't come to a classic old school, hardcore MMO forum and try to claim it as outdated and niche. MMO's were founded on this mentality and we'd like to keep it that way.
    absolutely! even though i still do enjoy games like ESO where i can jump in for 20-30 minutes and still get stuff done solo. i don't do that because i don't have the time anymore, it's because those kind of games don't hold my interest for long.

    i want to play a game where it is hard to find a good group and when you do it's like striking gold and extends your play session because that xp is just too good to just log out now.....

    that will also force me to try to be a good player and i will want players to like me so i can get groups easier, that is what is missing from MMO's and that is what you need for a healthy MMO community IMO

    like you said, plenty of other MMO's out there that are solo and ADD friendly, leave Pantheon alone! *said in my best chris cocker voice* :D


  • RhoklawRhoklaw Member EpicPosts: 6,275
    danwest58 said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    danwest58 said:
    Amathe said:
    There seems to be a widely held belief that without group finder, players will walk up to other players and ask to group up to invade the haunted fortress on the outskirts of town. And in that conversation, they will bond and then go smoke some old Toby together outside the local Inn.

    Some will, sure.

    But many will form/join the type of huge, impersonal guilds we often see nowadays in GW2. Hundreds and hundreds of members. Nobody really knows anyone. Nobody cares. Guild chat is a LFG tool and little else.

    Some may see this as socializing, but I can't say I do.
    That is because countless guild leaders gave up running a guild because it is no longer worth the time because when the overwhelming majority of MMO Players tell other MMO players just to fucking queue up and stop asking to group up you get large pointless guilds.   MMO Players survived very well and very easily pre LFD tools.  It was just on their shoulders to find a guild that fit their game needs and social needs.  Why the hell would I ever run a guild again if the game has a LFD tool in it?  I will give you a hint I woulnt because games with LFD tools Guilds are fucking useless outside top end raiding.  You know what when I went from WOW to SWTOR before SWTOR had their LFD tool?  I had a very successful guild that had flashpoints going all the time during our peak times, and was rated the 12th best guild on the server not just because we raided an progressed but because people could get groups together with easy.  You know who bitched on the forums?  The same people who want solo dungeons and raids because they didnt want to join a guild or make friends.

    I hate to tell you this but LFD FUCKED UP an entire genera because not everyone is meant to play an MMO yet they were added to they could have millions of players playing the game.  Guess what It's a Failed game design.  
    Pretty much and it's true that casual gaming was 2-4 hours a night back in the day. Now you have people clamoring for 15-30 minute dungeons. MMO's were designed with D&D style RP gamers in mind, not twitch ADHD FPS junkies, which seems to have somehow been incorporated to encompass a larger audience.

    MMORPG's are not for the FPS / MOBA community and for some reason, they don't seem to understand that. Despite the fact we already have a plethora of useless MMO's that cater to that crap, please don't come to a classic old school, hardcore MMO forum and try to claim it as outdated and niche. MMO's were founded on this mentality and we'd like to keep it that way.
    I agree with you on that.  Hell I am a casual schedule player myself, I can maybe push 12 to 15 hours gaming a week.  Best I can do.  these 15 to 30 minute dungeons are boring.  Now do I think a BRD has it's place YEP but it shouldnt be the norm.  I am thinking 60 to 90 minute dungeons and not Pull full packs and AOE tank dungeons.  I am thinking 2 CCs and maybe a 3rd CC or OT setup like older dungeons.  Dungeons like Scholo, or SM, or UD Strat, or Ramparts, or SL.  None of these were too long to me at least and even when I was teaching new players how to run dungeons you could do this casually you also didnt run dungeons 7 days a week, you might do 1 or 2 a week.  

    Problem is today's dungeons is nothing more than a treadmill.  I guess I can see old content/leveling dungeons being that way to a point but not like it is today.
    Classic EQ dungeons were nothing like dungeons in today's MMO's. Firstly, they were open, not instanced and boss mobs were on a timer. Most people would sit around waiting for their specific target to spawn. I remember exactly how old school EQ dungeons like Guk, Befallen and Mistmoore were like. That is exactly how you design a D&D pen and paper style dungeon into an MMO.

    Hell, I consider Gemstone 4, which is a MuD game to be better than a lot of the MMO crap being put out today. Too many newer MMO's play like an arcade game and don't feel like a pen and paper D&D session which is what MMORPG's were founded upon.

  • danwest58danwest58 Member RarePosts: 1,990
    Rhoklaw said:
    danwest58 said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    danwest58 said:
    Amathe said:

    I agree with you on that.  Hell I am a casual schedule player myself, I can maybe push 12 to 15 hours gaming a week.  Best I can do.  these 15 to 30 minute dungeons are boring.  Now do I think a BRD has it's place YEP but it shouldnt be the norm.  I am thinking 60 to 90 minute dungeons and not Pull full packs and AOE tank dungeons.  I am thinking 2 CCs and maybe a 3rd CC or OT setup like older dungeons.  Dungeons like Scholo, or SM, or UD Strat, or Ramparts, or SL.  None of these were too long to me at least and even when I was teaching new players how to run dungeons you could do this casually you also didnt run dungeons 7 days a week, you might do 1 or 2 a week.  

    Problem is today's dungeons is nothing more than a treadmill.  I guess I can see old content/leveling dungeons being that way to a point but not like it is today.
    Classic EQ dungeons were nothing like dungeons in today's MMO's. Firstly, they were open, not instanced and boss mobs were on a timer. Most people would sit around waiting for their specific target to spawn. I remember exactly how old school EQ dungeons like Guk, Befallen and Mistmoore were like. That is exactly how you design a D&D pen and paper style dungeon into an MMO.

    Hell, I consider Gemstone 4, which is a MuD game to be better than a lot of the MMO crap being put out today. Too many newer MMO's play like an arcade game and don't feel like a pen and paper D&D session which is what MMORPG's were founded upon.
    Yes and EQ and FFXI were very much the same.  The problem is those old school games are a little too tough even for and old school MMORPG player like myself.  (I started MMOs in 1998 with UO)  I can tell you I could never go back to FFXI because yes time is a factor.  It's not time as in I dont want to put the effort forward, but when you have a single mob that is camped by 100+ people, and its on a timer people that do not have 20+ hours a week will never get a chance at that mob.  

    This is why WOW came up with Instances.  It fixed the entire problem with FFXI and EQ.  It gave everyone a chance at killed these bosses and getting the gear.  Though Vanilla and TBC WOW did not guarantee this outcome.  It was up to you to get the outcome you wanted.  This is why WOW was so popular.  Yes it was casual for its time BUT it was not catering to the hand outs for all crowd.  You still needed to earn what you had.  
  • cheyanecheyane Member EpicPosts: 6,186
    I recall reading Cataclysm introduced dungeons that required more tactics and CC had to be used but the WoW player base got upset and complained and they toned it down .
    image
  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,968
    Rhoklaw said:
    danwest58 said:
    Rhoklaw said:
    danwest58 said:
    Amathe said:
    There seems to be a widely held belief that without group finder, players will walk up to other players and ask to group up to invade the haunted fortress on the outskirts of town. And in that conversation, they will bond and then go smoke some old Toby together outside the local Inn.

    Some will, sure.

    But many will form/join the type of huge, impersonal guilds we often see nowadays in GW2. Hundreds and hundreds of members. Nobody really knows anyone. Nobody cares. Guild chat is a LFG tool and little else.

    Some may see this as socializing, but I can't say I do.
    That is because countless guild leaders gave up running a guild because it is no longer worth the time because when the overwhelming majority of MMO Players tell other MMO players just to fucking queue up and stop asking to group up you get large pointless guilds.   MMO Players survived very well and very easily pre LFD tools.  It was just on their shoulders to find a guild that fit their game needs and social needs.  Why the hell would I ever run a guild again if the game has a LFD tool in it?  I will give you a hint I woulnt because games with LFD tools Guilds are fucking useless outside top end raiding.  You know what when I went from WOW to SWTOR before SWTOR had their LFD tool?  I had a very successful guild that had flashpoints going all the time during our peak times, and was rated the 12th best guild on the server not just because we raided an progressed but because people could get groups together with easy.  You know who bitched on the forums?  The same people who want solo dungeons and raids because they didnt want to join a guild or make friends.

    I hate to tell you this but LFD FUCKED UP an entire genera because not everyone is meant to play an MMO yet they were added to they could have millions of players playing the game.  Guess what It's a Failed game design.  
    Pretty much and it's true that casual gaming was 2-4 hours a night back in the day. Now you have people clamoring for 15-30 minute dungeons. MMO's were designed with D&D style RP gamers in mind, not twitch ADHD FPS junkies, which seems to have somehow been incorporated to encompass a larger audience.

    MMORPG's are not for the FPS / MOBA community and for some reason, they don't seem to understand that. Despite the fact we already have a plethora of useless MMO's that cater to that crap, please don't come to a classic old school, hardcore MMO forum and try to claim it as outdated and niche. MMO's were founded on this mentality and we'd like to keep it that way.
    I agree with you on that.  Hell I am a casual schedule player myself, I can maybe push 12 to 15 hours gaming a week.  Best I can do.  these 15 to 30 minute dungeons are boring.  Now do I think a BRD has it's place YEP but it shouldnt be the norm.  I am thinking 60 to 90 minute dungeons and not Pull full packs and AOE tank dungeons.  I am thinking 2 CCs and maybe a 3rd CC or OT setup like older dungeons.  Dungeons like Scholo, or SM, or UD Strat, or Ramparts, or SL.  None of these were too long to me at least and even when I was teaching new players how to run dungeons you could do this casually you also didnt run dungeons 7 days a week, you might do 1 or 2 a week.  

    Problem is today's dungeons is nothing more than a treadmill.  I guess I can see old content/leveling dungeons being that way to a point but not like it is today.
    Classic EQ dungeons were nothing like dungeons in today's MMO's. Firstly, they were open, not instanced and boss mobs were on a timer. Most people would sit around waiting for their specific target to spawn. I remember exactly how old school EQ dungeons like Guk, Befallen and Mistmoore were like....
    Yup, that was some of the worst game design ever. I remember helping my friend camp the ancient croc in Guk. It was something like a 45 minute respawn timer, and the croc himself was a rare spawn. Most of the times we'd wait 45 minutes only to have the placeholder mobs spawn. After about 6+ hours of waiting and killing placeholder mobs, the croc finally spawned. We killed it, but instead of dropping the sleeves that my friend was going for, it dropped the leggings. Such an absolute waste of time. And you couldn't even leave the area to do other things in between spawns because other people were "in-line" behind you and you'd lose your spot.
  • ForgrimmForgrimm Member EpicPosts: 2,968
    cheyane said:
    I recall reading Cataclysm introduced dungeons that required more tactics and CC had to be used but the WoW player base got upset and complained and they toned it down .
    Yes, in Cataclysm they tried to make heroics more unforgiving again. Not long after was one of the biggest loss of subs that ever occurred in the game's history up to that time. Needless to say, the following expansion went back to easy heroics.
  • DullahanDullahan Member EpicPosts: 4,516
    Kayo83 said:
    Dullahan said:

    Yeah, I mostly agree. How people find each other doesn't make or break it. What people do after is more important. If soloing is problematic, and the danger posed by the world is real, people will naturally appreciate other players more.

    That said, any time you replace player interaction on any level, it's a step in the wrong direction for an MMORPG in my opinion, and based on what I've observed, those little missteps usually lead to more and bigger ones.
    Well said, first paragraph anyway :P

    Personally I wouldnt really consider the following as "player interaction"

    Player1: /1 LF1M for Doom Dungeon
    Player2: /w Player1 Ill go

    I think we could do without that small bit of social activity if it means neither one of those need to wait around doing nothing.
    I don't really think anyone is suggesting that those brief exchanges of tells are that significant. I think it's more about the underlying philosophy of creating a world and letting players figure things out for themselves organically, rather than automating everything. I think it's more rewarding to find players or to be given groups on your merit as a person or player than to have an algorithm determine who you group with.

    The automation is a symptom of a bigger problem is what I'm saying. Not that we desperately need to trade pleasantries with every person we group with.


  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,709
    edited January 2017
    I don't think it's a far reach to say that if they have a party finder type system that they should include a transport to the dungeon.
    I mean, if you have to physically walk/ride to a dungeon it does add a possibility for people to interact more in the sense that you might all roll together but that is highly unlikely and I do NOT want to go back to the days of sitting in one zone LFG because that zone is where people group for X dungeon or camp.
    I want to be free to do whatever I feel like doing and still be looking for a group to do a dungeon.  Sitting around with my thumb up my ass is not my idea of fun.  
    If you can form parties from anywhere, that's great but now everyone is coming from different places because they're not all doing the same thing....so what exactly is the point of not transporting everyone to the dungeon then?  As a time sink?  You're not travelling to the dungeon together, after all.  You meet up in the zone that the dungeon is in for like 10 minutes while you walk/ride to the dungeon entrance?  
    There has to be a reason to take the extra time, and not just "because that's how I used to do it".  Give it a purpose, and never have players be idle unless they choose to, or it will fall flat on its face.
  • LetsinodLetsinod Member UncommonPosts: 384
    I could care less about the LFD tool.  More importantly when did we get to a point where a dungeon had to be "beat" in a certain time.  I remember in EQ there were many dungeons it took many runs to get to the end of.  Many nights we would replace group members half way through.  Some nights we weren't even trying to get to the end.  Some dungeons didn't really have an end (looking at you Guk) but rather multiple points to camp.  The old rush through a dungeon, kills lots of trash mobs, 2 smaller bosses and then one big final boss is so tiring.
  • KajidourdenKajidourden Member EpicPosts: 2,709
    Letsinod said:
    I could care less about the LFD tool.  More importantly when did we get to a point where a dungeon had to be "beat" in a certain time.  I remember in EQ there were many dungeons it took many runs to get to the end of.  Many nights we would replace group members half way through.  Some nights we weren't even trying to get to the end.  Some dungeons didn't really have an end (looking at you Guk) but rather multiple points to camp.  The old rush through a dungeon, kills lots of trash mobs, 2 smaller bosses and then one big final boss is so tiring.
    I can agree with this.  Wildstar with the last major update added a vet-level dungeon where there were 5 randomized events with the boss always being the boss.  Things like that or dungeons you can really explore are what we need more of.   The same dungeon I mentioned earlier has non-combat parts as well that are quite fun/cool, could use more of those as well.  A little platforming or something like that does a lot to break it up and keep it fun.
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