Personally, I don't consider systems that provide disposable players to fill your group to be "social".
What do you mean by disposable players?
You could easily meet some great peopleand put them on your friends list. And, should none of them be available you could use their system once more in order to meet more people. Some good and some bad obviously.
The level of interaction in games with matchmaking is pitiful. When the game does it for you, it doesn't require any interaction, and in most cases, there is none. You group up, clear a dungeon and disband.
Hence they're disposable.
Every fiber of my thoughts respects your person and the way you think. But when I read this, I get a sensation of sadness, because:
If social interaction is the two sentences between people, when gathering a group manually, is considered fulfilled by doing this :
Player 1 : LF people for X dungeon
Player 2 : Inv
First player does not respond, just right clicks and invites the person, so he can spam his message again and be ready to invite next one.
If this is what is considered meaningfull interaction, then Im heartbroken to see these people ask for so little to believe this will make up for their social interactions in a game.
I mean tactics can be discussed in any group, LFD random or /general random, so it boils down to those two sentences in the example?
Even in the overly simplified case where it is only 2 sentences like you described, it is still more meaningful than none. At least you got a conversation started. In an auto-matched group, you can easily go the whole time w/o saying a single word.
I want to hug you and tell you everything is going to be alright. That MMORPGs are full of people waiting out there just to talk to you.
They stand beside you in any city, they fly past you in any area, they fight beside you at a WB, they are right there next to you.
And in groups made in LFDs, they are right there, a lot of them ready to tell you hello when you greet them. Ready to accept a friendrequest, if you ask them.
Ofcourse not everyone will be interested, but even if we removed LFD and LFR, there would still be the very same people not interested.
I fear its not the tools that makes the people do one thing or the other. People just do people things. But most of them will greet you, if you ride up to them and say hello.
The mechanics of the game play a huge part in social interaction. I believe more so than the players themselves.
Personally, I can be social and group all day in EQ1.
Or I can play The Division and be auto matched to run group content there without saying a word to another player. Not because I'm all of a sudden less friendly when I play The Division. It's because of the game mechanics in place. There is no point in talking to other players in that game. To be honest, I don't even know how to talk to another player in the Division, and I have found no reason in trying to ever learn how.
P.S. Please don't see this post as an endorsement of The Division by me. The game is boring and awful.
I feel you, I think its difficult too. Even Im someone who have an easy time getting in contact with people, I just some days dont have the energy to be the one taking the initiative. Likewise when others come to me, it can take a few minutes for me to wake up and be ready to engage in conversation.
Whether LFD is there or not, its not that it would make a giant difference to me, but I know Id play dungeons less. Premade finder in WoW forexample is pretty much an extension of how people looking for more would go about things in a general chat. But I rarely use it. The lvl of ambition people have when they want to make groups, I find the whole thing stressfull and I just want to relax when doing content in a game.
I wont pull the "I have a RL card" I'll just say that gaming to me is for relaxation, not the place I try to test myself and push myself into stressfull situations.
In that sense I agree with you, games can have designs that can deside to what degree people wish to be social.
When games, such as WoW add so many ways of dividing players into "you are welcome and you are not welcome in our groups" gameplay. It has made me stop the achievers game all together. For years I had no issue pushing myself to be on pair with the highest demands in the game, but I didnt find it very social and even if Id go as far and say that there was social interaction along the way, it was more often a kind of social interaction that made me indifferent to people in that scene of the game.
Instead I have found that the greatest personalities who leaves the greatest impact on me are people who come up with social events, bringing their own imagination and soul into the game.
Id be sad to see LFD and LFR go, its really nice tools. When that said though, I think its a fair and reasonable subject to explore what creative ideas a company could add to help people engage with one another. If I were to add just one suggestion, Id say that people need places to hang out and just be able to watch events and idle, its when people stop running, that the imagination starts spinning and people start dancing with the person next to them. Thats where the magic starts happening.
@Torval and @Sovrath , you're right you can meet friendly people and have meaningful social interaction when you get placed into auto matched groups. That's the exception though, not the norm.
It's the opposite when you must form the groups up manually. You generally have people who are more invested in the group, since putting a group together takes a slight amount of effort (rather than clicking a button to queue up for auto group). Obviously, you can still get a bad group member this way, but you remember their name and you simply don't invite them to the group next time.
I"m not talking about auto groups. I don't believe in auto groups.
In my mind, the only way for a group finder to work is to match people with similar game interests and get them talking. Heck, it's sort of like online dating.
The problem with group finders seems to be that they just throw people together. That's ridiculous as not everyone is going to have the same objectives, ways of playing, etc.
An example could be Dungeons and Dragons online. I would be the guy who would want to methodically go through the dungeon. However, my experience has always been with people who barrel through them as fast as possible.
We all clearly want to go through the dungeon but the way we want to do it would be different. Another example would be games with storied cutscenes. I would be the guy listening to all of them and not "space barring" through them.
So I'll say again that a group finder should be just that: A tool that introduces you to people for the purpose of finding a group that will support your shared objectives. And how does that happen? you talk to each other, figure out if you want to do things the same way, etc.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
@Torval and @Sovrath sorry I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to the auto-matching dungeon finder tools in games such as WOW. The semantics between the two are confusing.
I am right there with you about having a regular old looking for group tool that helps you identify other players who are looking for a group or groups that need more players, such as was in Everquest 1 (see my earlier post on page 3).
I don't think anyone disagrees with having that as a feature? It's the "auto-matching" part (meaning players are auto invited and the groups are created by the game) that I was speaking against.
@Torval and @Sovrath sorry I guess I misunderstood. I thought you were referring to the auto-matching dungeon finder tools in games such as WOW. The semantics between the two are confusing.
I am right there with you about having a regular old looking for group tool that helps you identify other players who are looking for a group or groups that need more players, such as was in Everquest 1 (see my earlier post on page 3).
I don't think anyone disagrees with having that as a feature? It's the "auto-matching" part that I was speaking against.
exactly! And I think that's the problem when talking about group finders; people start thinking of games that popularized them and thinking that's what they have to be.
But I share the opinion that group finders, auto zoning to dungeons, etc really stifled communities. Now, the thing is that not everyone cares about "communities". Some people just want a game, maybe play with people but that's about it.
That's why developers need to know who they are making these games for and then developing for/toward those people.
I would much prefer to use a group finder that introduced me to people and "that's it" and would never use a group finder that auto matched me as I am a bit picky with who I group with and prefer good, honest, laid back people who just want to have fun and view the mishaps of a group (wiping, running for your life, etc) to be part of the fun alongside the triumphs.
Like Skyrim? Need more content? Try my Skyrim mod "Godfred's Tomb."
<snip> It's not great questing or great combat or great graphics that makes an MMO good, it's the amount and the quality of human interactions that happen within it. That's what makes great memories and that's what is missing so cruelly in modern MMOs. <snip>
Memories need context though.
When they launched UO, EQ1, AC, AO enabled social interaction. It was new. It was novel.
DAoC released and at some point external means of communicating crept into the game. Leading to all sorts of "security" measures if a raid to retake keeps was being planned.
Fast forward to today and online social interaction is nothing special. Multi-game guilds exist; with members playing one game whilst talking to guild members playing other games or maybe they are gardening!
So Pantheon will launch into a very different landscape. In game "communication" though is still an issue - Bungee arguably took it for granted when Destiny launched and had to add features.
<snip> It's not great questing or great combat or great graphics that makes an MMO good, it's the amount and the quality of human interactions that happen within it. That's what makes great memories and that's what is missing so cruelly in modern MMOs. <snip>
Memories need context though.
When they launched UO, EQ1, AC, AO enabled social interaction. It was new. It was novel.
DAoC released and at some point external means of communicating crept into the game. Leading to all sorts of "security" measures if a raid to retake keeps was being planned.
Fast forward to today and online social interaction is nothing special. Multi-game guilds exist; with members playing one game whilst talking to guild members playing other games or maybe they are gardening!
So Pantheon will launch into a very different landscape. In game "communication" though is still an issue - Bungee arguably took it for granted when Destiny launched and had to add features.
And offering "multiple options" should cover it.
IDK anything about the communication issues of Destiny, but isn't that a PS4 exclusive game? It's not surprising that communication would be an issue on a console without a keyboard to easily type?
deniter said: You're right, it's definitely not a no brainer at all.
One part of the mystery of dungeons is you don't run them all the time and enter there like they were shopping malls ready to welcome you and your mates and make sure you're not overwhelmed by conditions inside. There should always be a chance someone gets killed, or you fail for what you were trying to do. Also, a virtual fantasy world has rules of its own. In many of them teleporting is something very few are able to do, and even for them it's not something they can do constantly.
There are already these action games like WoW or CoD where you wait in a lobby (or a city, if you like) and queue for some action, and that's fun sometimes when you don't have much time. But there's a lack of games that work like a fantasy world simulator, where you can be a known blacksmith or famous treasure hunter, and in these kind of games group finder tools just won't work.
Id be sad to see LFD and LFR go, its really nice tools. When that said though, I think its a fair and reasonable subject to explore what creative ideas a company could add to help people engage with one another. If I were to add just one suggestion, Id say that people need places to hang out and just be able to watch events and idle, its when people stop running, that the imagination starts spinning and people start dancing with the person next to them. Thats where the magic starts happening.
Yes that is one thing Blizzard fucked up with WOW is downtime. You use to have Down time between fighting while leveling and down time between quest, down time between mob pulls in a dungeon. You had a LOT more social time in older school games. Today in WOW is nothing but a treadmill to get people to rush through content. This is the problem with catering to everyone. Games should be designed with an audience in mind not trying to get all gamers to play a single game.
A game with low population isn't niche, it is a failing game and Pantheon is heading towards the latter rather than the former.
People for whatever reason keep mistaking those two...
That would be your personal opinion. The Fact is if Pantheon only spent $30 Million on development and had on the low end 100K subs at 12.99 a month that is abut $1.3 Million a month they make that is without a Box cost. You would pay off the game in 23 Months. Based on the GAME design where it will take you 9 months to a year to get your character maxed out and there is a group of people that yes will pay for a game like this.
Now mind you I am not one of them because this is too much EQ1 and FFXI setup where you will be hard press to solo past a certain point. I like more the UO, SWG and Vanilla/TBC WOW Setup.
In Any event if the game can survive around 100K subs Who the Fuck Cares. Go find a game with a LFD tool and quit trying to make every game WOW.
<snip> It's not great questing or great combat or great graphics that makes an MMO good, it's the amount and the quality of human interactions that happen within it. That's what makes great memories and that's what is missing so cruelly in modern MMOs. <snip>
Memories need context though.
When they launched UO, EQ1, AC, AO enabled social interaction. It was new. It was novel.
DAoC released and at some point external means of communicating crept into the game. Leading to all sorts of "security" measures if a raid to retake keeps was being planned.
Fast forward to today and online social interaction is nothing special. Multi-game guilds exist; with members playing one game whilst talking to guild members playing other games or maybe they are gardening!
So Pantheon will launch into a very different landscape. In game "communication" though is still an issue - Bungee arguably took it for granted when Destiny launched and had to add features.
And offering "multiple options" should cover it.
Bungee also had to cater to everyone because they spent what $500 Million on Destiny? If Pantheon spends around $30 Million and gets 100K or more subs they game will do OK. Not every game needs to be fucking WOW and guess what because every game is copying WOW and trying to spend Hundreds of Millions of Dollars they need to cater to the MMORPG Gamer Wannbes.
I make an effort to greet and welcome and I enjoy when people reciprocate, but I don't expect it. It's okay if someone doesn't want to.
It would depend on what systems you're talking about specifically, but I don't disagree that putting some effort into making things happen is a good thing. With regards to grouping I want pretty much the same things Sovrath listed, a way to find people that like to game the way I do and filter out searching through those who don't.
I find it ironic that after so strongly promoting a grouping centric mmorpg mentality that you would describe one of the modern design flaws as not being able to succeed independently.
Grouping Centric MMORPGs do not work today because Developers spend $100+ Million on MMORPGs today, look at SWTOR, $250 Million, ESO is around $250 Million, Wildstar, and so on ALL are spending Hundreds of Millions of Dollars. They HAVE TO be solo based games with Automated Group Finder tools. WHY? Because 100K or 250K subs will not pay the bills. Pantheon is not going for a large budget MMO. They will likely succeed and prove people wrong because everyone since WOW became a thing figured WOW was the new norm for MMORPGs. Well none of succeed. Yes FFXIV is doing well but that is mainly because how many FF fans there are.
Group Finders are one of the worst things that ever happened to MMORPGs.
I wouldn't say group finders, I would say Automated Group Finders. Having a tool where you could flag yourself for group content and others can browse for you is fine. You still have to be Social and talk with people to join a group. It also pushes you to make friends. Automated Group Finders fucked MMOs.
danwest58 said: The Fact is if Pantheon only spent $30 Million on development and had on the low end 100K subs at 12.99 a month that is abut $1.3 Million a month they make that is without a Box cost. You would pay off the game in 23 Months.
Fact is that if you believe the game will have anywhere near 100k subs, you are delusional.
Fact is that paying off the game in 23 month is disaster.
danwest58 said: The Fact is if Pantheon only spent $30 Million on development and had on the low end 100K subs at 12.99 a month that is abut $1.3 Million a month they make that is without a Box cost. You would pay off the game in 23 Months.
Fact is that if you believe the game will have anywhere near 100k subs, you are delusional.
Fact is that paying off the game in 23 month is disaster.
Fact is, arm chair devs and there predictions are laughable.
I make an effort to greet and welcome and I enjoy when people reciprocate, but I don't expect it. It's okay if someone doesn't want to.
Agreed. Forcing people to be sociable at that kind of level is unacceptable. I love LFG tools as they've made finding a group less of chore.
IMO my main aim is to play with others, not make friends. I do expect interaction in regard to discussing tactics/strategies for taking on content.
However I'm not there to just "shoot the shit"/make friends. I can do that outside of group content where social activities should be done IMO.
Also, if your group content is that dull you have to socialise to those levels (like in EQ) I probably won't be playing.
I like your way of summing up how I feel about things when I log into an MMORPG.
When I read your post I get this sigh of relief, because what you write, makes me feel free to just play the game and not be forced into design made friendships.
I want the freedom to choose when I want to socialize, which is not typically in a dungeon, where I focus on playing out my characters role.
In the downtime outside dungeons though, when taking a break from adventuring or dungeoning, Im all for socializing. Love reading the generalchats, love watching little hubs of people emoting and dualling and often jump into these different groups.
Bungee also had to cater to everyone because they spent what $500 Million on Destiny? If Pantheon spends around $30 Million and gets 100K or more subs they game will do OK. <snip>
My point was that whilst gamers today have a multiplicity of ways to communicate outside the game a sample size of 30M+ expected "something more" despite the PS4 and XB1 both having some inbuilt communication tools.
As far as it being OK if it only costs $30M and they have 100k recurring subscriptions: how many box sales; factor in tax (on subs and box sales); operating costs; interest on capital if money has been borrowed and allow for profit. The latter - profit - is part of the reason why what Destiny, for example, will have cost Activision Blizzard a lot more than it cost Bungee to make.
And then of course there is churn. For 100k to "stick around" how many had to start the journey?
Whatever it costs if the development costs are recovered on "day 1" the game will be in a much stronger position. That is the challenge however. How to make the game attractive whilst keeping costs down.
What i miss is the feeling of committing to an adventure so to speak. Being able to just click a button and insta port to the dungeon and zerg through it doesn't give me that feeling. There are alot of games that i can do that in if i want to. Convenience does not feel immersive to me, and i miss that.. even if it can be frustrating at times.
I get it. I understand why this game can be popular and is needed by many. But is this a pendulum swing in the opposite direction to far? With no group finder do anyone not see the frustration it will bring to not being able to find a group to do what you want to do?
I have only done a small amount of research on this game but that stood out or have I missed a follow up? I can just remember when group finder was introduced to mmo's it was amazing. It now has caused nostalgia goggles to "remember when" oh those were great times. No actually waiting hours to find a group sucked.
I will though keep a watch out at this game but that alone has put a pause to back the game.
I never found this to be an issue when playing DAoC. Because grouping was most efficient, it was no problem finding groups at your more popular camping and dungeon spots.
Group Finders are one of the worst things that ever happened to MMORPGs.
I wouldn't say group finders, I would say Automated Group Finders. Having a tool where you could flag yourself for group content and others can browse for you is fine. You still have to be Social and talk with people to join a group. It also pushes you to make friends. Automated Group Finders fucked MMOs.
I wonder how many of the people in this thread realize/remember that even good ol' Everquest had a primitive group-finder. It was definitely crude, but even so it played a HUGE part in finding people for groups.
Later games simply took it too far(with the auto-joining and teleporting) as systems evolved in the genre.
"Later games simply took it too far(with the auto-joining and teleporting) as systems evolved in the genre"
Crucial to remember that these are two very different design issues.
There is no reason why Pantheon shouldn't have multiple different group finder tools - which is what has been indicated - and people use whichever one they are happy to use.
Travel time - for that is what it comes down to - is a very different issue. Do you auto-port? Do you have portals outside dungeon entrances - is this any different? And different games have done this in different ways. (And if I name one it will probably turn into a discussion on that game rather than the general issue). And its a different topic.
Without a LFG tool in the game, it will force players to be more sociable, not a bad thing in itself, but it does mean that those who have trouble socialising will effectively be at a disadvantage to those who make friends easily, and as players will likely only allow 'friends' into their groups, after all who would trust someone who maybe acted a bit shifty or evasive into their group for dungeon content, loners, misfits the socially inept, those are the people who will likely be stood around begging for groups to do content, and being largely ignored, regardless of whether they are tanks, healers or dps. The game could be an interesting social experiment in some ways, you only have to look at games like Eve Online to see how important if not integral, the social aspects of the game are.
Comments
Whether LFD is there or not, its not that it would make a giant difference to me, but I know Id play dungeons less. Premade finder in WoW forexample is pretty much an extension of how people looking for more would go about things in a general chat. But I rarely use it. The lvl of ambition people have when they want to make groups, I find the whole thing stressfull and I just want to relax when doing content in a game.
I wont pull the "I have a RL card" I'll just say that gaming to me is for relaxation, not the place I try to test myself and push myself into stressfull situations.
In that sense I agree with you, games can have designs that can deside to what degree people wish to be social.
When games, such as WoW add so many ways of dividing players into "you are welcome and you are not welcome in our groups" gameplay. It has made me stop the achievers game all together. For years I had no issue pushing myself to be on pair with the highest demands in the game, but I didnt find it very social and even if Id go as far and say that there was social interaction along the way, it was more often a kind of social interaction that made me indifferent to people in that scene of the game.
Instead I have found that the greatest personalities who leaves the greatest impact on me are people who come up with social events, bringing their own imagination and soul into the game.
Id be sad to see LFD and LFR go, its really nice tools. When that said though, I think its a fair and reasonable subject to explore what creative ideas a company could add to help people engage with one another. If I were to add just one suggestion, Id say that people need places to hang out and just be able to watch events and idle, its when people stop running, that the imagination starts spinning and people start dancing with the person next to them. Thats where the magic starts happening.
In my mind, the only way for a group finder to work is to match people with similar game interests and get them talking. Heck, it's sort of like online dating.
The problem with group finders seems to be that they just throw people together. That's ridiculous as not everyone is going to have the same objectives, ways of playing, etc.
An example could be Dungeons and Dragons online. I would be the guy who would want to methodically go through the dungeon. However, my experience has always been with people who barrel through them as fast as possible.
We all clearly want to go through the dungeon but the way we want to do it would be different. Another example would be games with storied cutscenes. I would be the guy listening to all of them and not "space barring" through them.
So I'll say again that a group finder should be just that: A tool that introduces you to people for the purpose of finding a group that will support your shared objectives. And how does that happen? you talk to each other, figure out if you want to do things the same way, etc.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I am right there with you about having a regular old looking for group tool that helps you identify other players who are looking for a group or groups that need more players, such as was in Everquest 1 (see my earlier post on page 3).
I don't think anyone disagrees with having that as a feature? It's the "auto-matching" part (meaning players are auto invited and the groups are created by the game) that I was speaking against.
But I share the opinion that group finders, auto zoning to dungeons, etc really stifled communities. Now, the thing is that not everyone cares about "communities". Some people just want a game, maybe play with people but that's about it.
That's why developers need to know who they are making these games for and then developing for/toward those people.
I would much prefer to use a group finder that introduced me to people and "that's it" and would never use a group finder that auto matched me as I am a bit picky with who I group with and prefer good, honest, laid back people who just want to have fun and view the mishaps of a group (wiping, running for your life, etc) to be part of the fun alongside the triumphs.
Godfred's Tomb Trailer: https://youtu.be/-nsXGddj_4w
Original Skyrim: https://www.nexusmods.com/skyrim/mods/109547
Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
When they launched UO, EQ1, AC, AO enabled social interaction. It was new. It was novel.
DAoC released and at some point external means of communicating crept into the game. Leading to all sorts of "security" measures if a raid to retake keeps was being planned.
Fast forward to today and online social interaction is nothing special. Multi-game guilds exist; with members playing one game whilst talking to guild members playing other games or maybe they are gardening!
So Pantheon will launch into a very different landscape. In game "communication" though is still an issue - Bungee arguably took it for granted when Destiny launched and had to add features.
And offering "multiple options" should cover it.
Also, so much fail at reading comprehension.
People for whatever reason keep mistaking those two...
Now mind you I am not one of them because this is too much EQ1 and FFXI setup where you will be hard press to solo past a certain point. I like more the UO, SWG and Vanilla/TBC WOW Setup.
In Any event if the game can survive around 100K subs Who the Fuck Cares. Go find a game with a LFD tool and quit trying to make every game WOW.
Fact is, arm chair devs and there predictions are laughable.
IMO my main aim is to play with others, not make friends. I do expect interaction in regard to discussing tactics/strategies for taking on content.
However I'm not there to just "shoot the shit"/make friends. I can do that outside of group content where social activities should be done IMO.
Also, if your group content is that dull you have to socialise to those levels (like in EQ) I probably won't be playing.
I like your way of summing up how I feel about things when I log into an MMORPG.
When I read your post I get this sigh of relief, because what you write, makes me feel free to just play the game and not be forced into design made friendships.
I want the freedom to choose when I want to socialize, which is not typically in a dungeon, where I focus on playing out my characters role.
In the downtime outside dungeons though, when taking a break from adventuring or dungeoning, Im all for socializing. Love reading the generalchats, love watching little hubs of people emoting and dualling and often jump into these different groups.
As far as it being OK if it only costs $30M and they have 100k recurring subscriptions: how many box sales; factor in tax (on subs and box sales); operating costs; interest on capital if money has been borrowed and allow for profit. The latter - profit - is part of the reason why what Destiny, for example, will have cost Activision Blizzard a lot more than it cost Bungee to make.
And then of course there is churn. For 100k to "stick around" how many had to start the journey?
Whatever it costs if the development costs are recovered on "day 1" the game will be in a much stronger position. That is the challenge however. How to make the game attractive whilst keeping costs down.
It was definitely crude, but even so it played a HUGE part in finding people for groups.
Later games simply took it too far(with the auto-joining and teleporting) as systems evolved in the genre.
Crucial to remember that these are two very different design issues.
There is no reason why Pantheon shouldn't have multiple different group finder tools - which is what has been indicated - and people use whichever one they are happy to use.
Travel time - for that is what it comes down to - is a very different issue.
Do you auto-port? Do you have portals outside dungeon entrances - is this any different?
And different games have done this in different ways. (And if I name one it will probably turn into a discussion on that game rather than the general issue). And its a different topic.
The game could be an interesting social experiment in some ways, you only have to look at games like Eve Online to see how important if not integral, the social aspects of the game are.