What to do when not fighting? Game mechanics question

Rhoms · December 2016

I love PvP. To me, strong consequential PvP, capturing and holding territory, and resource control/economic management are core features of an MMORPG that make it interesting. However, even with these features in Crowfall, I'm left with a key question:

When I'm not fighting, gathering resources, or crafting, what is there to do?

I'm sure there will be a time when I want to take a break from PvP. Maybe I'm tired, my friends are offline, and I don't feel like soloing. The same could be said for harvesting and crafting. From my understanding, there isn't a PvE element to this game - no questing, no "go kill 10 rats" etc. Specifically, I'm left wondering about what I'm going to do when I want to give PvP a rest, and generally, I'm wondering what people are going to do in game with the rest of their time when they aren't fighting. I've fought a lot in the MMOs I've played, but I've never *only* PvPed or gathered/crafted.

nurso · December 2016

Scouting, leading caravans, housing related stuff, visiting other EKs (your spirit-crow isn't locked in the campaign), trading, managing your own EK, etc.

Rhoms · December 2016

nurso said:

Scouting, leading caravans, housing related stuff, visiting other EKs (your spirit-crow isn't locked in the campaign), trading, managing your own EK, etc.

You're right, but outside of EKs, in each of those aspects, most likely there is an element of engaging in PvP.

In a way, I guess my question boils down to developer vs. player-created content. Much of this game will be driven by the players. It will be up to us to thrive, engage in the world, go to war, build alliances and so on. I'm not sure we've seen a successful MMO that has pulled this one off. Even early UO and Eve Online had/have PvE elements.

nurso · December 2016

In this regard, Crowfall and Camelot Unchained are very similar: no PvE progression. The thing is, both developers are too money-tight, and good PvE content costs a lot (writers, level designers, 3D-artists&animators, and maybe voice actors).
On the other hand, PvE-driven indie-MMORPGs like e.g. Pantheon don't have good PvP content for the same exact reasons -- it's either-or

Taveren72360 · December 2016

Even games with PVE run into the same problem eventually. Maybe we need more time IRL??

For me, when the built-in game systems got boring I would invest in other people. It is an MMO after all....help guildies and nurture personal relationships. It leads to all sorts of interesting "side quests".

From a totally different angle, I would love to see GM run quest/world boss type events. Or a special class of player who can run them after extensive vetting :P The NPC AI level, especially beyond tactically, is just sad. Clever writing doesn't change that fact much. Player driven questing could be grand.

Rhoms · December 2016

Taveren72360 said:

Even games with PVE run into the same problem eventually. Maybe we need more time IRL??

For me, when the built-in game systems got boring I would invest in other people. It is an MMO after all....help guildies and nurture personal relationships. It leads to all sorts of interesting "side quests".

From a totally different angle, I would love to see GM run quest/world boss type events. Or a special class of player who can run them after extensive vetting :P The NPC AI level, especially beyond tactically, is just sad. Clever writing doesn't change that fact much. Player driven questing could be grand.

Thanks for the feedback. I like your thinking. Ultimately, the world is a platform for the players.

JamesGoblin · December 2016

I believe that we'll be directly PvPing only 10-15% of the time, say:

- Imagine that your keep has siege window from 17 AM to 20 AM. So, today it's your turn to just walk keep's walls being ready to alarm everyone. Or maybe you'll be scouting ahead, or just patrolling or waiting in ambush in that wood to the south. Imagine that nothing happens, so you spent time drinking coffee or changing music on YouTube while checking the game every minute.

- At 20 AM, your duty is over and it's time to go back to flamewars on Crowfall forums. Or you'll be taking part in deals/negotiations or just eating popcorn while others fight or reading patch notes or arguing that your main, Fae Assassin, is hopelessly broken and in desperate need of fix, while others try to ridicule you. Classical forum stuff.

- Checking Crowfall app on your cell phone every 5 minutes (on job, even on toilet shell) to see whether guild keep is safe, how's warfare advancing on far east, is there anything urgent, what are the latest guild/ingame gossips, did anyone order mount/shield/sword from your crafter recently...

- Checking your alts in other Campaigns, to do anything from the list above or to PvP if all is peaceful on your "main".

- Now, imagine that (GOD FORBID!) you somehow, by a cruel twist of fate, end up being an officer or even a guild leader. You know, those poor souls that are trying to make people be at the right time on the right place. Be sure that you won't be bored.

- A group of crafters from your guild needs escort, Tim and Jon are offline and so you and Brad are asked to log in. You escort their little caravan to the far POI on the north, clear all the hostile NPCs and then keep on checking the horizon for 20 minutes, as miners do the mining and putting all the stuff on their pack boars. Then you ride back to the keep for 15 minutes, as nothing happens - since a group of enemy Duelists and a Fae Assassin, stalking you from the nearby bushes, were too afraid to try their luck.

- Your guild's spies on forums informed you that alliance A will be sieging castle of guild B tomorrow at 15 AM. So, your guild has an urgent meeting to discuss plea for help from "friendly" alliance A (options are: ignoring it OR promising help and then backstabbing them OR actually helping them OR even making some kind of deal with the defenders OR...). After two hours of heated arguing, you decide to backstab BUT your role is to negotiate and promise them help i.e. lie as convincingly as you can, which takes hours of talking via Discord, on forums... Tomorrow you send your scouts 15 minutes before the siege to check attacker/defender's numbers and pick the most appropriate time and route for backstabbing etc.

Allright, some of these are pure babbling, but I tried to illustrate couple other things that might possibly happen besides "only" PvP and crafting.

Arkade99 · December 2016

Some disciplines will be found in the world, so you can spend time looking/farming for them. Also, you can spend time looking for and capturing thralls or looking searching for high quality vessels.

Taveren72360 · December 2016

We would "patrol" a lot in Shadowbane. Rangers could track rogues in stealth. Full loot rights make patrolling your perimeter important... Hopefully the majestic spirit of Shadowbane's strategic pvp will be tweaked and the hackers be driven back to their holes,

esc-joconnor · December 2016

It might be worth it for Artcraft to add a scenario builder to personal plots. That way the players could literally build PvE content. Hell, they could make it like the plot owners could be GMs.

Arkade99 · December 2016

esc-joconnor said:

It might be worth it for Artcraft to add a scenario builder to personal plots. That way the players could literally build PvE content. Hell, they could make it like the plot owners could be GMs.

I'd imagine that would take a lot of time and money that Artcraft doesn't have, and really isn't in the scope of the game they are making. There will be mob spawners that players will be able to place in their EKs, but that's as far as it's likely to go.

esc-joconnor · December 2016

Arkade99 said:

esc-joconnor said:

It might be worth it for Artcraft to add a scenario builder to personal plots. That way the players could literally build PvE content. Hell, they could make it like the plot owners could be GMs.

I'd imagine that would take a lot of time and money that Artcraft doesn't have, and really isn't in the scope of the game they are making. There will be mob spawners that players will be able to place in their EKs, but that's as far as it's likely to go.

Could be, but you know what they say, build a man a fire and he'll be warm for a night, set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Allein · December 2016

Rhoms said:

When I'm not fighting, gathering resources, or crafting, what is there to do?
I'm sure there will be a time when I want to take a break from PvP.

Game is entirely focused on conflict and feeding that conflict.

When you need a break from that, time to log off or not on.

As has been suggested, there are a lot of non-combat related things to do, but yes they all circle back to some form of conflict one way or another.

It's more like a lobby game. If I don't feel like shooting people in a FPS, I don't log in.

DAoC originally was PVP almost entirely once max level was reached and one had decent gear. PVE was still available, but not really needed (until they went and screwed that up). We played to fight. Was rather one track, but that's why people enjoyed it.

When I wasn't fighting, I was leveling alts or helping friends to reach the same end goal.

Palladin · January 2017

One of the better PVP worlds I have ever seen was in a failed games called Fallen Earth(Still an active game). EF also had an option for friendly fire while in a pvp conflict area which made things really interesting. If more games with pvp were to implement friendly fire, there would probably be fewer fights where 2,3,4 people are all trying to kill a single player. It would also add such a complexity to pvp that would be much more engaging and in my opinion, fun. Getting group ganked has never been fun to anyone.

I have the same concern as the OP. I like to pvp within reason. I am old school role player type of gamer. Don't worry I am not so into it that I play dress up or stand around trying to give flowery speeches and other lame crap like that. No my RP comes in the form of actions. what I will and will not do while playing a given character. Kinda like old school D&D where you had alignments, Lawful Good, Chaotic Neutral, Lawful Evil and the like.
I do not want to pvp all the time and if a game is forcing me into pvp ALL the time I jsut will not play the game. Also all the open world pvp games have all failed. Shadowbane, Daggerfall are the two I was eagerly anticipating that just didn't deliver the experience I was looking for. Forcing pvp on all players in an open world, in my opinion is a sure recipe for failure.

PVP was accomplished via conflict regions. Within these regions pvp was unlimited. Within these regions you could mount resource node gathering devices. Within these regions one could find the highest level resources.